Author Topic: Scott flame licker build  (Read 147306 times)

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #75 on: February 16, 2011, 10:32:32 AM »
I'd definitely agree with your final finish desire, it does make a substantial difference in useful power, and longevity.  The issue with rings was the lack of full understanding of the loading, and the need for the rings to be substantial harder than the bore, as the contact surface of the rings is a factor of far more than a hundred to one, and cast iron has those nice little nodules of carbide in it.  Ring wear today is mostly due to exotic additives in the ring material, and partially due to better control of surface angles and contact surfaces designed to follow the twists and flopping caused by friction and direction changes, with angles designed to work with the natural forces on the ring, rather than trying to counter them, by making it more rigid.  I use several different kinds of rings in rebuilding Harley engines, each brand of which claim to have solved all the world's problems with new technology, but I never know what the rings will look like when I order them until I open the package.  There are three or four differing engineering perspectives on rings, all of which are at least somewhat contradictory to each other, with the major difference being in minute differences in cranking pressure and final horsepower, all of which tends to be accademic to the mechanic and the owner, except for racers, where it does really matter.
   Lots of machinists don't know that good quality cast iron can be brought to a mirror finish under the right conditions, and that, coupled with accuracy in roundness and taper can allow an engine to run at full temp with less than half a thousandth clearance if the piston and cylinder are iron.  I've found delrin does an excellent job in carrying lapping compound for a final finish in iron and is cheap and easy to get, and easy to throw away after its dead and gone. :beer: cheers, jack

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #76 on: February 16, 2011, 04:45:31 PM »
Nick,

I will most probably spend more time on getting a good finish between the bore and piston than I have spent making the two parts.

To me, they are the most important part of an engine, and getting it right first time will eliminate any queries about them when it comes to get the engine running, if there are any problems.


Because there was so little spare length to hold the billet in the chuck (3/16") to complete the piston by normal methods, I am using a feature that is normally put in last to actually help me make the part. When you see the finished article, you will see why I went down this route.
First off, I did a fine face off on the end, then drilled and tapped a 3/16" x 40 tpi thread in it (normally the last bit to do). This is going to be the main datum for the whole machining exercise.




I now went over the whole billet, rough skinning it down to within about 0.050" of finished size all over.

This is removing metal from the other end of the billet.




The O.D. was taken down in two stages.




The final part was to remove the bulk from the inside.




So this is what I ended up with. I now need to be able to hold this fairly rigid while I bring everything down to size.
Time to make a mandrel.




Using a piece of bar end, I turned a spigot sticking out on the end and then faced the end off smooth. The spigot was then threaded 3/16" x 40 tpi.




The part was then screwed on tight onto the spigot screw and faced end.




I need to get the heaviest of the machining done first, as the screw will be gradually shortened to a couple of threads by the time the centre is bored out.

First off, the piston was brought down to exact length.




Followed very gently by removing all the inside of the piston by boring. You can just see at the bottom of the hole where the screw has been shortened by the boring exercise.




The OD of the piston was then brought down until it just fitted inside the bore, just a nice push fit.




You can now see how much metal was removed, I suppose because the piston needs to be very light just so that friction and reciprocating forces don't get too high.

If I had tried to hold this with a normal chuck, I would imagine it would have collapsed.




My mic said I had 0.0006" clearance (about 0.015mm). That will be spot on for when I start to lap the piston to bore. Hopefully I will end up with about 1 thou clearance (0.025mm).




You can also see that the bar end will act as a perfect piston holding handle for doing the lapping with.


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Offline Dean W

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #77 on: February 16, 2011, 06:34:03 PM »
I like the idea of the spigot with the fat end for supporting the piston.  A good multi-task jig, John.
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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #78 on: February 16, 2011, 07:32:18 PM »
Jack,

Sorry I didn't answer you before. I use Delrin sometimes as well, it is very easy to embed the cutting agent into it's surface with a piece of hardwood. But I don't thro it away afterwards, I just do an outside skim on it and it can be used for something else.
These pair though are going to be lapped together. I find cast against cast gives a lovely finish when final lap is with something like jewellers rouge or toothpaste.

Dean,

I suppose no matter which way it was done, some sort of mandrel would have been required. this way was the first to come to mind, so it got used.

Now the dirty work begins with the lapping.

Almost everything after that is straightforwards machining and sticking or silver soldering together.


John

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Offline NickG

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #79 on: February 17, 2011, 07:40:17 AM »
John,

Great work on the piston, I remember when I first did my jan ridders piston without hollowing it out and I believe it did make a difference. The engine wouldn't run with the extra mass. I got away with just putting the slot in the graphite as it was so much lighter anyway.

I don't disagree that correct lapping must improve the performance of such an engine. However, what I am trying to say is, I have proved although it's obviously a critical fit, it's not as critical as people think to get a running engine and that goes for flame gulper, stirling or whatever. I'm not saying my surfaces had a poor finish, they were as you said - done on the finest feed and very smooth, could not see (by eye) or feel any ridges. It'd be interesting to try and quantify any differences in the two methods.

I guess the difference is, I'm aiming for a much lower standard! I'm happy with an engine that will run well for the moment. The easiest and quickest way I've found of doing that is by reaming the bore and leaving the piston as turned from the lathe with a fine feed.

Nick
« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 07:46:26 AM by NickG »
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Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #80 on: February 17, 2011, 08:22:25 AM »
Hi John, and greeting to all reading, I put my emphasis on lapping because I use that as the means of fitting solid, closed end connecting rods with pressed in hard bearing races that Rockwell about a C-63-65 out of 10100 Torrington bearing steel, and lap for oversided rollers which come in increments of two tenths over, up to a thousandth, and then in one, two and three thousands oversized, before one needs to press out the races and put new, undersized races in.  The lapping is done with an expanding cast iron mandrel, and I've made replacement mandrels for rods, for the pinion side race on the primary engines I rebuild, having worn out the original lap heads.  Using the same compound on say delrin first, using the long lap and short lap method, on a cylinder, it can be brought to an almost mirror finish, which is achievable with finer lapping compound and finally rouge as you suggest.  Having fitted rods for many decades to existing crankpins, using bore guages, and finding the quality of finish being in the micron range, I have come to expect such a finish after lapping, and found one can get pretty large without going to rings, and getting full compression, particularly if you have a tool post grinder for finishing the piston, as that eliminates all but the final lap on it.  I like less than half a thousandth up to an inch, with steel or cast iron in cast iron cylinders.  I find it hard not to lap to such standards on anything open to it, having done it so many years on the machines I've routinely been rebuilding and having both the full equipment and experience.  I too dispose of the delrin only after it has been cut down to the point there's nothing small enough to lap with it anymore, but being cheap to buy in a stick makes it handy, and it cuts very accurates, and holds on size unchanging with temperatures in the normal range.  It also is the only real method of using glass cylinders with any expectation of accuracy and close fitting pistons, and allows fitting less than a tenth of a thousandth with graphite pistons if a lathe will hold that for the short length of the piston, which most lathes will.  Excuse me if I took over your post for a minute, John.  cheers, jack

Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #81 on: February 17, 2011, 09:24:27 AM »
John,

The piston and cylinder look fantastic. They look silky smooth.

John\Jack would love to see a thread about lapping cylinders and the techniques.

Eric
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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #82 on: February 17, 2011, 02:14:24 PM »
Nick,

I'm not criticising anyone about their methods at all, and as you know, I wouldn't do that unless it was unsafe to show. I am just showing the standards I always try to achieve, it is a personal thing on my part.
People can emulate or not, that is their decision. But until they are shown or told the choices, some of them most probably don't realise there are any choices to make.

Actually Eric, photos, especially with flash, usually show surface finishes worse than they really are. This pair are actually a lot better in real life than what is shown here.
If I wasn't so fussy about any work that I do, they would most probably run plenty good enough as they are.

With regards to showing lapping etc. The US lads have a definite advantage over me in that department. They have retail access to very cheap soft laps, whereas in the UK, although most probably available, they will be neither as cheap or accessible as the US ones are.

So I personally have to use old and trusted methods for achieving what is required.


John
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Offline saw

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #83 on: February 17, 2011, 03:15:33 PM »
This is so very nice.  :clap:
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Offline NickG

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #84 on: February 18, 2011, 04:00:36 AM »
John,

I agree, and it shows in your finished work which is 2nd to none. Good point, I didn't realise there was a choice and I have probably made many a cylinder and piston worse by trying to lap it the wrong way. It sounds like your lapping method and otheres discussed in this post are robust, tried and tested ones though so I will be trying it again at some point.  :thumbup:

Nick
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Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #85 on: February 18, 2011, 10:59:16 AM »
Hi John, I'm actually a bit surprised, I would have expected you to have similar access to what we have, and actually would have expected to more, given model engineering has had a stronger following in the UK than here until lately.  I routinely get consumable things like lapping compound, sticks of various metals and plastics, and screws and such from McMaster-Carr, a national supply chain, and would have expected similar availability there.  I use fine valve grinding compound for my first lapping, it's listed as 320 grit, and then I can choose from a five hundred grit, and go forward, or trade off to diamond lapping compound (the other is silicon carbide), and get down to the kind of finish necessary for diesel injector plungers and the like.  On my "ducky" flame sucker, I used the fine compound, and then went straight to simichrome polish with rouge rubbed onto the coated piston and rubbed inside the cylinder, lapping with changing the compound about four or five times.  I believe it came out with about .0005 measured clearance.  The piston was filed as the last step in the lathe with a six inch smooth file, taking off about .0002 thousandths, before moving on to lapping, with about three or four tenths clearance at the start of the lapping process, but a substantial change in surface finish by the end.  In my next order I will be getting a can of the five hundred grit, as I can use it more often, now that I'm modelling, and doing smaller work.  If I couldn't get the delrin or something comparable, I'd use hardwood dowel, machine half away for a section, make a half to fit in, and the dowel the two together, using paper to go between, and increase the diameter, oak and walnut are good because they have an open grain that holds lapping compound well.  That engine is coming along nicely, and should be ready for a video pretty soon I expect.  Looking forward to it. :nrocks: jack

Offline scrapman

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #86 on: February 18, 2011, 12:00:37 PM »
nice build John :clap:, cant wait to see the end result,

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #87 on: February 18, 2011, 01:38:59 PM »
Jack,

I was on about the soft copper expandable laps that you lads can get. Load 'em up, and away you go.

But I always find that I get much better finishes and fits by lapping the two together from the start. I normally only use a seperate bar for getting tiny tapers out of the bore.


Scrapman,

Neither can I wait to see the end result.
A couple of years ago this would have been done and dusted in a week, but now everything is done at a much more relaxed pace.

I get a lot more enjoyment for the buck.


John
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Offline saw

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #88 on: February 18, 2011, 01:47:26 PM »
bogstrand A couple of years ago this would have been done and dusted in a week, but now everything is done at a much more relaxed pace.
Yes thats my thougt's to. Take it easey and enjoy the building.  :thumbup:
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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #89 on: February 18, 2011, 04:36:40 PM »
It was dirty work today, lapping.

I will just explain something that I haven't shown.

When the unlapped piston was pushed thru the bore, I noticed that about 2/3rds the way up from the end (opposite to the flange end of the cylinder) I noticed there was a slight binding up between the two parts. If I had had not been so lazy and used my bore gauge from the start, rather than using an internal mic at each end, I would have picked this up and taken a few more non feed cuts when I was boring the cylinder. As it was, I used my bore hone to straighten things out. There was most probably only about a tenth to be removed, and it only took a couple of minutes to hone it out.

All operations were done on the slowest setting my lathe will go, 65 RPM.

After that, it was just a matter of starting out with a bit of diamond paste gently spread onto the surface of the piston. I wouldn't recommend using diamond if it was a non ferrous bore or piston, as it tends to permanently embed itself into the soft metal surface, so if it isn't all completely removed, it will carry on wearing away the bore as the engine is running. After a good wash down with thinners, I used a commercial chrome polish, cleaned down again, then finished off with rouge paste.
These operations took just over an hour, gently rotating the sleeve up and down the over the piston in a sort of figure of eight movement until things start slackening off and getting easier with each different compound. I recharged each compound about 3 or 4 times, when it started to get filthy loaded with cast iron sludge. You have to make sure that the whole inner surface of the bore is lapped to the outer surface of the piston.
In the beginning, the sleeve had to be held fairly tight to stop it rotating with the piston, but as things went on, it got easier to hold. The final lap was actually done with just one finger pressure moving the sleeve up and down.




I tried to get a flash shot showing the semi chrome finish on both the bore and piston, but failed miserably. Because I am scared of boogie men, I won't go out to the shop in the dark to take another picture.
Anyway, another take my word for it, they were s-m-o-o-t-h as silk.

In fact, just by gently sucking and blowing on the flanged end of the cylinder, the piston went up and down in the bore.



I have taken a shot of the bits and bobs that I used for the exercise, and I will try to explain how the hone works.

On the left is my commercial cylinder hone, designed for things like brake cylinders and small i/c bores. I paid less than 20 squid for this off the net, from a motor factors. If you buy one from a model engineering supplier, they will cost you double that, for exactly the same thing (or even less contents).

This one will work with bores from around 3/4" up to about 3.5". You can buy extra stones, both harder and softer grades in different lengths, to cater for different materials and depth of bore. I have found the ones supplied have done a great job on all the different bores I have honed.

The way they work is that when the stones are fed into the bore, they lie flat against the inner surface, and by gently rotating in the bore, and moving it in and out, as I did my lapping, it will gradually make the bore perfectly parallel and round. In use, you keep it well lubricated, I use my general purpose hydraulic oil that I use on my machine for the gearboxes and local lubrication, and by adjusting a thumb screw at the back of the spring, you can make the stones cut harder or softer. The closer you get to perfect, the softer you have the setting.

These hones are not really for getting a very smooth bore, but they will do if adjusted correctly, as I said, they are used for getting things straightened out. You will find that after use, if you have followed the movement regime I mentioned earlier, there are minute scratches in the bore face. As the engine is running in, oil will get trapped in these tiny scratches and help prevent the piston seizing in the bore as the two bed in together over time. Eventually the scratches will be worn away and you will end up with highly polished bore and piston.

From certain model engineer suppliers, you can buy casting kits that when made up will do the same thing for the outside of the pistons, they are called external hones.

The lapping I have done does away with this engine running in period, and the engine should be able to get up to full speed from the start.

On the right hand side of the pic are the three compounds I used for lapping. The green stuff at the back is my own diamond lapping paste that I made up a few years ago, and it is used to get most of the sleeve to piston undulations removed. Next one down is a commercial chrome polish. This is for getting things started to be really smooth, then followed by the jewellers rouge which imparts a nice polish to both surfaces.

People use all sorts of different compounds for lapping, these are just the basic ones I use. If I was doing a non ferrous bore or piston, I would actually use an aluminium oxide grinding paste (the stuff used for grinding in valves on a car) instead of the diamond paste. The ali oxide actually breaks down into a harmless sludge during the lapping process, so is easily washed off, and causing no further wear to the parts.




So that is the cylinder bore and piston finished, except for drilling a few mounting holes. That means I can get back onto making things.

So you have to imagine what I look like now, hands filthy, embedded CI dust in the pores, the front of my white t-shirt covered in the same stuff, and a ring of dirty oil around my lips, from sucking the piston in and out, and of course, once John S finds out, he will be there with all the Al Jolson quips, as usual.


Bogs
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Offline Bluechip

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #90 on: February 18, 2011, 04:59:15 PM »
Hi John

Cylinder hone not this one is it ??

http://www.rapidonline.com/Tools-Fasteners-Production-Equipment/Automotive-Products/Vehicle-Service-Braking/Cylinder-Hone-Kit-4-in-1/303648/kw/hone

Saw it some months ago, seemed el-cheapo  :scratch:

So, didn't get one ....

BC
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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #91 on: February 18, 2011, 05:07:05 PM »
That's the one Dave.

I've had this one a few years and it is well up to the job. I put mine in the lathe chuck and drive it from that, but you can use it with an electric drill, but keep the speed down a bit.

Once you first get it, you will go cross eyed trying to figure how everything goes together, but once you have the knack, dead easy.


John
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Offline Bluechip

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #92 on: February 18, 2011, 05:13:47 PM »
Hi John

Oh Bu99er .... I have one from Polly, about 7/8" to 1 1/8" or so ... it was about the same price as that complete kit cost, ( as indeed, you said  ...  :(

So I assumed the kit wern't up to snuff ...

Grrrrrr ....

BC
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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #93 on: February 18, 2011, 05:38:45 PM »
I nearly did the same as you Dave, but I did a good comparison first, as I had already seen the Polly one.

You win some.........


John
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Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #94 on: February 19, 2011, 09:36:01 AM »
Hi John, very good explanation of the honing and lapping process, and a good display of the tools as well.  That engine should start right up from the get go, and run pretty much full speed and power from the beginning.  It is awfully hard to get a good picture of the bore of a cylinder that shows the quality of the finish and the bore. :beer: cheers, jack

Offline scrapman

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #95 on: February 19, 2011, 10:50:22 AM »
Hi John :wave:, Things take alot longer with me to John, I starting to get old lol,

Ray,

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #96 on: February 22, 2011, 04:54:22 PM »
Now I have got my bit of new old tooling out of the way, I can carry on getting this engine built.


I need to find where to bore the hole so that when the sleeve is fitted, not only is it parallel to the base but also the correct height from it. The conrod has a fairly wide sweep up and down, and if those two are not correct, within reason, the conrod will catch the edge of the cylinder.
So using an old fitters trick, I filled the cast hole up with a bit of sheet lead tapped into position so that it grabs the inside of the hole. There are many other methods that can be used, bits of wood etc, but I find that this way suits me.




By using a few hand tools, and a copy of John Stevensons precision oddleg scribing calipers, I got the centre hole spotted to within a couple of thou. When working with castings such as this, that is perfectly good enough.
It took the opportunity to mark up where the faced area needs to be cut to.




Using my coaxial thingybob I soon had the centre found and the table zeroed up and locked.




I was soon boring thru both the top and bottom faces.
I did find out the the boring head actually removes double the amount that is set, the normal thing on a lathe, but no problems keeping things accurate, it is marked up in half thous.




It was soon up to a position where the sleeve could be gently pushed thru both top and bottom faces. I should have no trouble sealing the sleeve into the hopper.
There was a problem with the boring head, I had made the key handle much too small, and it hurt my fingers as I took the facing cuts. Because of this, I actually forgot to take any pics of the facing exercise.
I will soon be able to knock up a more comfortable key, and maybe another time I can show it facing off.




But it actually did a superb job, totally square to the bore, but I did have to go to 0.025" (0.6mm) deep to clean off the casting face so that the sleeve flange sat flat all the way around.




The two parts pushed together. I'm very happy with the results.




I am now in the process of recentring everything up, because if I now make the cylinder head and stick it onto these two bits, I can drill all the holding bolts at the same time rather than having to spot thru from a previously drilled cylinder head, and maybe make a mistake.




So next time will be the cylinder head.


Bogs
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Offline Dean W

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #97 on: February 22, 2011, 07:02:19 PM »
Looks very well done, John.  Your new big bruiser boring head seems to be working out great too.
Dean W.

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Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #98 on: February 22, 2011, 08:45:40 PM »
Hi John, that worked out very nicely, I'm envious the facing capacity, it did a beautiful job setting up for that flange.  I was looking for a new honing set today, and can't find anything anywhere near as nice as that kit you showed, with the range it has. :beer: cheers, Jack

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #99 on: February 22, 2011, 10:35:03 PM »
Jack,

Amazon in the UK sell them,

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sealey-VS029-Cylinder-Hone-4-in1/dp/B000RO7THQ

So I would suspect the much larger Amazon base in the US would do as well.


John
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