Author Topic: Scott flame licker build  (Read 146503 times)

Offline NickG

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #50 on: January 23, 2011, 11:55:38 AM »
should look great john. Dave, damn that predictive text ... In actual fact I've been tee total since 30th Dec !

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Offline Divided he ad

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #51 on: January 24, 2011, 01:42:38 PM »
Looks like you're having fun John  :thumbup:

Totally  :offtopic: but... Just catching up on all the latest bits I want to.... tried to look through a few threads over the last few nights and found myself waking up with a bad neck in my Comp' chair  :palm:

I'm actually experiencing my first free evening in what seems like a month!  :ddb:



Looking forward to seeing the rest take shape.... I'm still not sold on these castings though. It does look like cast iron is very messy and the shapes can be seemingly very complex to machine when compared to bar stock. I am obviously aware of the ease of creating a more complex part though.   


Still plenty of time to experiment someday myself though. Threads like this will come in very handy at that point  :)







Ralph.
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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #52 on: February 13, 2011, 05:11:18 PM »
It doesn't seem like three weeks since I dropped this post to get on with the Minimag build.

But anyway, back I am, and ready to pick it up almost from where I left off.

The magneto build left me with a bit of a bling bug to get out of my system, so this is a little diversion that isn't shown on the plans.


Some of you will recognise this bit of brass left over from the swing up threading post, but the threaded bit on the end is just perfect for what I want.
I just took the thread down until it was cleaned off.




A quick change of tool and I had a spigot of the right size formed on the end.




A large profile tool soon had a nice radius formed.




Drill out the end a bit.




Then opened up to the required size. All this by the way is being done by eye, except for the spigot on the end size.




The bit I want was parted off.




Now comes the experience bit. All my working life, and a bit before, I have been hand shaping parts on the lathe, using a few basic tools. The basic name for it is called graving, a basic watchmakers technique which uses shaped hand held cutting tools similar to what a wood turner uses, but much smaller. I am not using those this time, just files and a sanding block, and I use it just to give me something unique that is very quick to do.

It is not difficult at all, and a lot of lathework started off just this way, but it can be dangerous if you don't know how to hold the tools correctly, and also, you are working with your fingers very close to a fast spinning chuck, and as you all know, machines have no feelings, and they will chop you up just as easily as they chop up metal and other materials. So unless you are VERY safety conscious and scared to death of your machines because you know what they can do to you, don't even try it. I am only showing the basics here, and even though it can be dangerous, it is a perfectly recognised way of shaping items in the lathe.

First off, the part was remounted back into the self centring four jaw chuck with the bit I want to shape up to the outside of the jaws. Using hand and eye coordination, plus a boring bar, I roughly profiled the inside of the part to match the outside bit which had been machined.




Using just a few files and a sponge emery block, I blended all the rough cuts into one smooth flowing rounded shape, getting rid of all the maching marks at the same time.
A sheet of white paper put onto the background helps in seeing that everything is blended together, having just nice rounded curves with no flat spots.




A quick dose of Mrs Buff had a nice basic shine added to the part. Just before final assembly, it will be given a final deep lustre polish.




As you have most probably already guessed, this is a nicely shaped funnel for the water jacket,  instead of the horrible gaping hole that is shown on the plans.




Total time, just over an hour. Time well spent as far as I am concerned

Now the bling is out of my system for now, I can get on with building the engine.



Bogs
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Offline shoey51

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #53 on: February 13, 2011, 05:20:42 PM »
Lovely bling :thumbup:

Offline spuddevans

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #54 on: February 14, 2011, 01:48:21 AM »
Cant beat the bling :D

Lovely flowing lines on that funnel :thumbup:


Tim
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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #55 on: February 14, 2011, 04:10:44 AM »
NICE!  :thumbup:

David D
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Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #56 on: February 14, 2011, 04:38:24 AM »
Many thanks for the good comments gents.

I don't know if I put people off by my comments about hand graving and the safety issues, but in all honesty, if you care to take the time and train yourself to work very closely to the chuck, it can be a very rewarding experience.

I have forgotten the amount of boiler funnel caps I have made for people, but something like that can really put the finishing touches to a steam plant or a distinguishing part for an engine can really set it out from the ordinary.

As I have shown before, where I turned up shaped steel handles, they are not available commercially, but if you can have a go yourself, almost any turned shape is possible. From little hand turned finials in place of nuts as on my mine engine, to a spinner shaped cone to fit my small turbine and elbow engines. All done in a matter of minutes, and totally unique.

For my graver rest, when I use a graver, I just mount a bar in my toolpost and bring it close up to the job, so no special lathe fitments are required. BTW, great gravers can be made out of worn out files, just grind up the shape you require on the end and leave most of the teeth on there, they give a good non slip surface to hold onto, but make sure you leave the original handle in place.


John
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Offline NickG

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #57 on: February 14, 2011, 08:08:36 AM »
Very nice John, have often wondered how people make the fancy shapes on funnels, etc. You're right, it was a bit of a gaping hole on the top of that casting before. Very professional looking now, I love it!

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #58 on: February 14, 2011, 01:11:03 PM »
Hi John, glad you were able to get that "bling drive" out of your system.  I guess hand tool work on lathes is something for old folks to remember, it was where I started on both a wood and metal lathe.  It's not that dangerous, it just hurts sometimes, like when I smashed my fingernail off when one of the chuck jaws hit it.  Wasted almost ten minutes getting a clean rag taped around it so it would quit leaking, and just from using a file :lol:.  That funnel looks great and will certainly be unique, it fits the whole of the engine very nicely, and does look much better than a plain old hole.  I'm really looking forward to seeing and hearing this engine run, great work at making it look easy.  :nrocks: jack

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #59 on: February 14, 2011, 01:23:15 PM »
Good to see you back onto this engine and giving it your own touches, the flared spout gives the hopper a lot more caricter.

As John says provided you are careful and think about what you are doing hand turning can be quite rewarding and is not at all hard particularly in a material like brass. Its a very good way to refine curved forms, these bits for a traction engine whistle were all hand turned using a 3/16" dia scraper. And once you are confident with hand turning you won't have any worries about trying metal spinning.

J

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #60 on: February 14, 2011, 06:50:08 PM »
Actually Jack,

Quote
great work at making it look easy.


It is as easy as it looks, I'm sure if I can do it, so can everyone else. I'm no superman and also I've got a gimpy right hand and arm.


Jason,

Nice looking bits, easy isn't it?
I have never tried spinning anything over a few inches diameter, but one day I just might.


So today, after playing about with a new bit of tooling I have aquired, there wasn't much time for machining, but I did get a little done.

The next bit of natural progression for me was to get the cylinder made, and a nice big lump of cast iron was supplied. In fact, enough to make two, if I don't get the first one right.


It was mounted up in the chuck, the free end gently centre drilled and a rotating centre was used as support. Then it was just a matter of cutting it down to size.




By taking things steady and slowly, the outer surfaces were brought down to exact sizes and lengths.
The machined up bit was then held in the chuck while the rest was parted off.
But due to an unfortunate accident, where I couldn't take the weight of the piece that was being parted off correctly, it trapped my favourite parting off tool and snapped the end off. Back onto fleabay to find a replacement. You win some, you lose some. I still have the left hand version of the same tool, so I will be OK until I find another.

Normally for taking off such a large lump I would have used my power hacksaw, so it was my own fault for trying to do things too fast.




As you can see by comparing it to the digivern, it is a rather large cylinder.
I checked to see if I had enough length on my boring bar to get the bore done, and it looks like I will get away with it, if I take it steady.

The 4" long lump at the side was the piece that trapped my parting tool and broke it, all because I couldn't support the weight.




Next time will be getting a big hole stuck thru the shaped up lump of cast iron.


Bogs
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Location - Crewe, Cheshire

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Offline Dean W

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #61 on: February 15, 2011, 03:20:29 AM »
This project got right back on top after the Minimag, John.  Good you are able to keep at it a few hours a day, now.
The hopper topper looks right nice!
Dean W.

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Offline NickG

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #62 on: February 15, 2011, 04:17:51 AM »
I forgot how big that engine was John  :jaw: what is the bore and stroke? Good to see you straight back on this.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #63 on: February 15, 2011, 06:13:02 AM »
Thanks Dean and Nick.

If I don't continue going into my shop, even if only to do some reading, I am very reluctant to get back in there, so I just keep going.

Nick,

1" 5/16" bore by 2" stroke


John
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Offline DavidA

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2011, 07:01:40 AM »
There's one consolation.  It will be a heck of a lot lighter once it is bored out.

Dave.

Offline NickG

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #65 on: February 15, 2011, 07:44:47 AM »
I know what you mean, it's much easier to sit in the cosy house and not get dirty, good on you.  :thumbup:
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Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #66 on: February 15, 2011, 10:50:47 AM »
As David said, it will be quite a bit lighter once it's bored and honed out.  Awfully nice they gave you a piece to make a cylinder for another engine, I'd say that's quality in the kit, for those who question taking on castings.  Nice work, all around.  jack

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #67 on: February 15, 2011, 02:37:25 PM »
Actually Jack, the extra material is to make a couple more pieces that are required, but there would be no trouble making them up out of normal steel if I used it to replace a buggered up cylinder. It is for that reason I am making the cylinder first, just in case I need the option.

But I needn't have worried, making the cylinder went very smoothly, but I might still keep that piece of cast and make the bits out of some scrap steel I have, it seems such a waste of a good piece of precious material.

Away we go, my way of boring a cylinder.


First off, I am using a four jaw self centring chuck, not a 4 jaw independent. I find they are a little more accurate than a normal 3 jaw.

One of the first things you will notice are the brass shim protectors, you could use cut up drinks cans instead. Cast iron, although fairly hard to penetrate can have the surface bruised very easily by unprotected jaws, these are used to help prevent that. There is no need to go to white knuckle tightening up, they grip rather well without going that far.
The flange was faced to correct thickness.




By using different sized drills, I gradually remove most of the material to come out of the bore.
I left 3/16" to bore out. You can go much closer than that, but I like to use the run up to final size to gauge how the bar is cutting. Writing down the cut put on and seeing if it matches with the amount taken off.




The boring tool was set up in it's holder. Making sure that it will go all the way thru the part. I also set up the saddle stop so that it works just after the tool has gone all the way thru.
This is really sticking out a bit more than normal, but this is a 16mm diameter tool and I have found that they are more rigid than a normal steel one of the same size, so if normal cutting pressures are kept low (no big depth cuts) then everything will be fine.




So the sleeve was remounted into the chuck, but using a slightly different method.
The flange goes fully up to the jaws, to stop the sleeve being pushed inside the chuck as I put a new cut on. Secondly, the protectors are still used, but the jaws are only tightened just enough to stop the part spinning in the chuck.
If you tighten up too much, the outside walls will be pressed inwards and when the boring bar takes it's cut, it will be off the metal that has been pushed inwards and you will find that when the chuck pressure is taken off, you will end up with a triangular(if using a 3 jaw) or square (if using a 4jaw) shaped hole, not perfectly round. I hope you understood that.
If possible, I always try to bore thin wall items with the bored part being outside of the chuck jaws.

Anyway, back to cutting out this hole. I rough cut out at 0.025" cuts for the first few, until I got within say 15 thou of required hole size. Then remove the material until it leaves about 0,002" to be removed. The closer you get to size, the finer and slower the feed you use.
I do the final cut, measure that it is either spot on or very close to size, then using a very fine feed, take another half dozen cuts with no more cut on at all, just using the same setting as the final one used to get down to size. This is to take off any material that wasn't cut because of the tool flexing as it went down the bore.
All this lot took well over an hour, but hey, the job isn't going to get up and run away, so time shouldn't enter into the equation, other than the longer you take on it, usually the better results you get.




The bore, measured at either end was exactly the same, one thou oversize, so no tapered bore. I suppose I should have used my deep bore gauge as I was doing the job, but I couldn't be bothered to unpack my instrument cupboard to get to it.
The surface finish was smooth as silk. I love working with cast iron for that very reason, you can get fabulous smooth finishes on it.



The last pic shows the sleeve sitting on a bar of metal. Cast iron again, and that will end up as the piston. A job for next time.

Actually, the instructions that came with the engine suggests honing the bore at this time. Personally I think that is the wrong way to go on an engine such as this, so after the piston is brought down to size, it will be lapped in with the cylinder bore, that will give an even smoother and less friction of fit than honing could achieve.


Bogs
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Offline shoey51

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #68 on: February 15, 2011, 03:05:12 PM »
lovely work Bogs as always.
I love working with cast as well but its damn dirty stuff abd a bugger to clean up after

Graham

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #69 on: February 15, 2011, 03:32:46 PM »
Nicely explained John.   :clap:

I could almost smell the c/i dust.....  :thumbup:

Took me back to my apprenticeship days, and several years working full time on castings.

Certainly don't miss that black dust.....It got everywhere!  ::)

David D
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Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #70 on: February 15, 2011, 05:40:28 PM »
DKM,

I am using standard bits that are obtainable anywhere. For people working at home, I find that there is no need to go to the trouble of obtaining anything special.

Also, you will find I very rarely, if ever, quote numbers and letters etc in my posts, purely because they only confuse people even more. If it can't be kept relatively simple and easy to understand, I don't show it.


Dave and Graham,

I am very lucky, my wife cleans up after me, so as long as she can reach the shop vac, I don't worry about the mess. When I have finished with the CI maching tomorrow, I will call her in.


John

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Location - Crewe, Cheshire

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Offline Dean W

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #71 on: February 15, 2011, 06:27:42 PM »
Cylinder looks good, John.  It's nice to see a more experienced fellow do things the way I do it. 
Makes me think I'm doing my own stuff right.  : )
Dean W.

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Offline NickG

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #72 on: February 16, 2011, 08:02:32 AM »
Nice work John,

That bore doesn't look to me like it needs any lapping or honing to be honest.
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #73 on: February 16, 2011, 08:40:45 AM »
Thanks Dean and Nick.

Dean, maybe I am doing it the same as you, rather than the other way around, and Nick, the surface finish on that bore has a long way to go, it should come up like dull chrome eventually. Then you know you have a very friction free surface, ideal for this type of engine, whereas with an ic one with metal rings, you can leave it rough and let the engine bed itself in whilst running.

Mind you I don't suppose you remember the signs on new cars from the 50's & 60's - RUNNING IN, PLEASE PASS. Even after running in correctly, 30,000 miles and it was due a rebore. Crappy metals and manufacture, even worse lubricants.


John
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Offline NickG

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Re: Scott flame licker build
« Reply #74 on: February 16, 2011, 08:50:06 AM »
John,

On my ridders engine and poppin I didn't lap any bores or polish any pistons and they seem to work well. I am sure you will extract superior performance but not sure how much better.

Some people seem to really go over the top on lapping in my opinion.

Good point about car engines of old, I guess a car is lugging a lot of weight around though, they have serious stress on them and at an average speed of say 30mph that's 1000 hours of running. I doubt my engines will see more than 100 hours of ticking over over the course of my life!
Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)