Shaper

[Darren]

Guys,

Can I ask those of you with experience on your comments/views on Shaping machines, they intrigue me,

TIA 

[bogstandard]

Darren,

At one time no self respecting workshop would be without one, but its use nowadays has been mainly superceded by the mill.

They are perfect for making flat faces and grooving cuts etc.

The last time I used one in anger was the late 80's, to machine a plate perfectly flat, so that I could bolt a cracked mosickle crankcase to, so that it could be welded up without distorting.

They can be picked up fairly cheaply nowadays because, as I said, they are almost a redundant type of machine.

There is usually a very ready market for good used machines amongst the model engineering fraternity, due to the fact, a lot of these machines were used by the older machinist, who know how to use them to their best advantage.

Very good used machines can be picked up for little money, but they can be a bit of a minefield, if you want to purchase one, get one with all the bells and whistles in good working condition, auto feeds, clapper box, vice etc. because any missing bits might be rather hard to find or replace.

There are in fact a few hand operated ones knocking about, but in my mind, that is just another version of self flagellation. A horse is for riding on, not for pulling along like a stubborn mule. But I suppose they would be ok for the odd job like cutting a keyway or slot.

John

[Darren]

Thanks John,

I remember using one at school some years ago now, they still hold a fascination from then I suppose. I've been scouring the net tonight for info on what they can do.
Quite a bit if you are prepared to put the time in and figure out how...and wait....and wait....

I asked cos there is one just around the corner from me going, apparently there is more tooling there as well. Local man who everyone went to for that sort of job.
Seems he's no longer with us and his son has no interest. It was my friendly scrap man that gave me the nod, apparently he was asked to go there and clear it all out.
Thankfully the scrap man refused, asked the owner to try to find someone who'd appreciate it rather than scrap it. Apparently scrap values are so low at the moment it's not worth him shifting it.

Anyways, I'm to "view" Sat morning and currently trying to find as much info as I can..........hard without knowing any details though...

[Bernd]

A bit tough on those shapers are we Bog's? 

Just think of the times you wanted to cut an internal gear. Set up an indexing device and cut internal gears. How about that splined shaft, just to mention a few.

The planer took over for the milling macgine. I haven't seen any machin take over for the shaper. Ya both had the same concept as far as how to remove metals.

Wish I'd find an old shaper. They're great for doing internal shaping. Something that's a bit tough on a milling machine.

Bernd

[Bernd]

Anyways, I'm to "view" Sat morning and currently trying to find as much info as I can..........hard without knowing any details though...

Darren,

If I were you I'd over him a fare price and take it home. These machines are good for some of the things I mentioned in my previous post. Even if there are parts missing they can be made in the home shop. You may only need it for that occcasional odd job, but when you do it'll be a life saver.   

Bernd

[Darren]

Thanks Bernd, there's something about a lump of powered cast iron that just fascinates isn't there....

[CrewCab]

Darren, if you have the room and it's not a lot of money take it home ................. what the heck     at least then we can all post you our "shaping" projects 

Just to keep you occupied of course 

CC

[Darren]

Aww gee thanks.....sumut to keep me out of trouble eh 

I wasn't really looking for one, but lets see just what it is and if it's any good and take it from there....
Might all come to nothing yet...

[bogstandard]

Bernd,

A bit tough on those shapers are we Bog's?

Far from it, if you look at my post, you will find I was refering to the hand operated ones when I was talking about hard work, and I do agree with you when it comes to some of the more difficult jobs. But those jobs could most probably be done on a rigid mill by using the quill as the power arm, except for some of the very deep stuff where you can't get a cutter long enough.

Large workshops used to have banks of shapers, maybe six to ten, and were all looked after by one operator, all because they were classed as a slow process machine. Not really relevent in a model engineering environment, as time means nothing, but must be taken into account if you think it is a be all and end all type of machine.

It is the sort of machine, that if you can pick up a good one for reasonable money, and more importantly, if you have the space to put it, then buy it. Then dig it out of all the crap you have piled over it whenever you have a need to use it. They are not a 'use all the time' type of machine unless you are in a production environment.

John

[Circlip]

Ah yes, the apprentices nightmare, usually regarded as a punishment detail in the toolroom I was slaved to, shaping bloody "Nearite" guides, wore tools out at a phenominal rate when shaping the stuff (probably Alumininininium bronze) but seemed to act like butter on the machine they were used on. If you've got room to put one in, and it's cheap and you want to remove metal quickly like in a slab mill situation why not? It's cheaper/quicker sharpening a big lump of HSS than setting a tool and cutter grinder up. Only thing to watch out for is the ram, you know when one has "Nudged" you.

   Regards   Ian.

[Bernd]

I whole heartly agree with what your saying John when it comes to the production enviroment. Speed is not the shapers greatest asset. Also modern methods of making sintered products has kind of obsoleted the shaper. Just press the powered metal into a shape you need. Modern tech has obsoleted the shaper and planner, that's just the way it goes.

For the home shop machinist though it could be a valueble tool for that one time fix-it-job. How many times have you heard or read in one of the forums of somebody needing an internal gear or internal spline. I think it would be a great learning experince to set up a shaper and make a gear or spline. But then that's me.

Bernd

P.S. I won't mention anything about space.

[bogstandard]

P.S. I won't mention anything about space.

You are a rotten bugger Bernd, I will get my own back one day.

John

[Darren]

It turned out to be an Atlas/Acorn shaper, later model 7" with a 9.3" bed travel.

On a proper stand too, though the bottom section is filled with concrete. We split the machine off the stand, just four bolts and it's now in the back of my car waiting for help to get it out.
The stand was the heaviest bit !!

Will take a pic later but for now this is it

[Alphawolf45]

 I had one of those 7 inch atlas shapers in real good condition. Never used it once in the several years I had it finally sold it to a kid that had the big interest in Atlas machinery..Now I would appreciate having one for use cutting the mortise for falling block rifles......but I built a contraption that fits on my vertical mill for arm powered shaping of the odd internal shape and so dont need to make space for a full sized shaper.....

[Brass_Machine]

You bought the shaper??

Holy crap. You are building up quite the machine shop Darren! Awesome stuff  I have never had a chance to use a shaper. We had one at the school I did a machine shop class at, just never used it. How much does it weigh?


Congrats on your find

Eric

I still gotta get those pictures of the base I did for the bandsaw for you.

[Bernd]

I'm jealous Darren.   

Nice machine. I don't think you'll regret getting it.

Bernd

[Darren]

Well here she is, isn't she beautiful......!!

What ya mean NO !! 

Sure she is, don't let the dirt and grime fool you, this machine is in very good condition. A good clean and it will be a different machine.
Even the way machining marks are still very visible, hardly any wear it seems.







A quick clean and the base looks better but still grubby though



I had a quick go at some simple machining to see how she runs.
Surprisingly well, very smooth and quiet, less noise than either my lathe or miller. I was expecting it to be clanky?

A couple of test pieces, nothing special, alloy on the left and steel on the right. Just grabbed a HSS lathe bit and gave it a go.
The vice on the machine is a disaster, keeps lifting under the power stroke. I tightened the jaw from underneath but it still vibrated a bit. Wrong type of vice I guess.

Still the result wasn't too bad.....

[bogstandard]

Nice compact machine there Darren, looks totally intact.

Your are right, that vice is for a drill press, you really need a good heavy duty milling vice, and if it has a good solid swivel base, all the better. These machines put more pressure on a vice than almost any other machine.

Before you go trying bits out on it, read all about swivelling and positioning the clapper box, you can do all sorts of damage if you have it in the wrong position for the job in hand.

John

[Bernd]

Nice Darren.

Get all that make up off of her and she'll look pretty. 

Bogs is right. That vise isn't for that machine. Plus your putting all that cutting pressure on the movable jaw.

Now I'm really jealous.  

Bernd

[Darren]

Been playing with it some more (advice on clapper box noted bogs) Got it to cut very nicely until vibration set in on the vice. I have a huge milling vice, way too big for this brand new in box. It's so large I can hardly carry it, in fact I can't compleate. Comes in two bits so you can set any size gap. Why I ever bought it I'll never know..!! I actually went to buy a lathe but it was no good. At the same time I got a nice Jones And Shipman milling vice, swivels all ways. But it's too tall to go on the shaper.

You should have seen Le Blond in the workshop, now she was gorgeous, well maintained too....I had a fiddle, couldn't resist it could it.....

[Darren]

Nice compact machine there Darren, looks totally intact.

John

Yes I was surprised just how compact it is, you don't need much room for one of these. Only bits missing that I can see are a couple of handles with the square holes.
These must be obtainable from somewhere I guess, I'll start hunting some down....

[bogstandard]

Nah!! Don't need to hunt them down, just get a square drill and make them up yourself.

Bogs

[Darren]

Before you go trying bits out on it, read all about swivelling and positioning the clapper box, you can do all sorts of damage if you have it in the wrong position for the job in hand.

John

On this what I have found is that when machining side work rotate clapper box away from face being machined (and tool towards). Thereby the clapper lifts the tool away from the work face and not dig into it on the return stroke.

Horizontal work keep clapper and tool vertical, or you can have the tool facing away from direction of travel. So it doesn't dig in if it slips under the pressure a shaper puts on tooling.

That's it so far, still reading up.....

[Darren]

On thing that did surprise me,

I currently have the shaper still on the trolley from the previous picture. Not as yet on its stand as I need help to lift it.

So, crouching on the floor when testing I expected the trolley to jump backwards and forwards quite violently. It doesn't, just a very slight rocking motion.
This of course will take some power out of the cutting stroke and should operate better when properly mounted.

[Darren]

Time to get this tool off the floor and somewhere I can not only see what I'm doing but to tinker and set it up properly.

Only having myself as help yesterday it looked to be a daunting task as it's quite a heavy machine. I didn't take many pic's of the actual move so I'll try to explain how I did it as a one man team.



In the picture you can see the cast iron shaper stand to the left. Doesn't look much but with the bottom filled with concrete it was not easy to move about.
The shaper looks quite precariously balanced on top of a pile of wood which is on a pallet truck.  It was in fact very solid, good job really as I had to keep climbing on/over it to get through the doorway to the right.
The question is how did I get the shaper way up there without a pulley system or some such device?

Simple, I would slide the shaper on the board it's sitting directly upon to one side, left or right in the picture. I say slide, more of a heave, struggle, sweat, take a rest, breathe and have another go !!!
When to one side I could lift the opposite end of the board using it as a lever to lift the shaper, then with the other "spare" hand slide another bit of timber in and let the board back down. After checking all was still safe and stable the shaper was "slid" to the other end of the board. Lift, insert timber and so on.
Repeat until correct height is achieved....!!!

A couple of hours later, yes it really took that long, place a protective bit of MDF on the stand and slide the shaper over.

Easy...well not quite, but better than simple lifting...!

A shot from the doorway



Well finally she's in place, if the workshop looks messy it's cos' the shaper now resides where a shelving once stood...not that my workshop is usually tidy mind.



I put a couple of 3x3s under the stand so that it could be easily be moved with the pallet truck at a later date.

As you can see she's a bit cleaner now, but still some work to do....