Author Topic: New Project Started!  (Read 59105 times)

Offline sbwhart

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #100 on: December 22, 2009, 02:14:49 AM »
It sounds like it wants to go Nick, Have you tried running it in by connecting it up to a motor/drill and letting it run for 1/2 hr with plenty of oil just to get rid of the tight spots.

Good luck

Stew
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline NickG

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #101 on: December 22, 2009, 07:43:58 AM »
Thanks Stew,

No, I haven't tried that but might do so it sort of laps itself in in the right place naturally. think the only thing that could happen really is the con rod could bend. If I adjust the collar so as to not let it go too far in that might work though.

Need a plan of action but don't think I'll get a great deal done over, only got tomorrow night before xmas really but might get a couple of nights over the break.

nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline raynerd

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #102 on: December 22, 2009, 03:12:41 PM »
Nick - I know your a far more competent machinest than me but I have found that my engines have always run much much better after running in for a short time. Infact, my first one would only run upside down! I ran it upside down for an hour and when I turned it over it was fine!

I think it is definately worth hookling up a small motor to turn it over for 30 minutes or the best part of an hour.

Looks amazing, bummer it is not running but I have every confidence it will do!

Chris

Offline John Hill

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #103 on: December 22, 2009, 03:21:44 PM »
For a very fine clearance how about a little talcum powder in the bore?  I understand it is a lubricant but it is also an abrasive (if such a thing is possible).  Maybe someone know more about the stuff?
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Offline sorveltaja

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #104 on: December 22, 2009, 04:30:12 PM »
Nick, nice work  :clap:.

If the engine gives a noticeably kick, as yours, it means, that you are on the way to get the runner.

That type of engine is known to be notoriously critical about the adjustments. I have built different types of them in the past, and none was successful.

When looking at Jan Ridder's engines, he must have some magical touch, as his engines run quite happily.

Anyway, keep at it :thumbup:.

   

Offline NickG

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #105 on: December 23, 2009, 04:26:12 AM »
Thanks guys.  I do need to keep at it.

Chris, I wouldn't say I'm more competent at all! I think I will try running in, it does make sense as the tight spot isn't very tight but I think if I tried to lap any further, the tight spot would become a loose spot! I don't actually think the valve should travel that far in anyway though, I think I just got excited because it did something!

No disrespect to Jan as his stuff is wonderful and it is a very innovative design, but I just think things are very critical to get them to run. As I said, I read through the poppin instructions yesterday and a lot of things in that make a lot of sense. If I try that one at least I'll know whether it's just me or not! Even in those instructions it mentions about how critical the fit of piston and friction is though and the fact it can bring a grown man to tears!

Having said that, I have seen a few versions of Jan's internal valve engine that work very well - Jan's, another couple on youtube and Bogs'. All these people are much more experienced / better machinists than me though!

John, talcum powder sounds a good idea, I also thought toothpaste but that might be too coarse?

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline John Hill

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #106 on: December 23, 2009, 04:35:19 AM »
Nick, I think tooth paste would be much more abrasive than talcum.
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Offline NickG

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #107 on: December 23, 2009, 04:36:56 AM »
Ok, might do a test with talcum on something that doesn't matter! I really need to get better at boring holes and lapping things - I think this might be my downfall.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline NickG

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #108 on: December 28, 2009, 07:15:28 PM »
Hello, hope everybody had a nice Christmas and are looking forward to the new year.

I made a lighter flywheel tonight, tried the engine again and am afraid to say the next remedial action I take will be the last resort!  :(

The flywheel didn't seem to make any noticable difference. At a certain setting I think, although it's extremely difficult to tell, that there is some tiny sign of life. However, I am puzzled as to why it is so small, so it might be psycological! This only happens if I put plenty of oil on the piston and valve, which is understandable as they will make a better seal with oil, but I would have thought with this seal and very little friction I would at least be able to clearly see the engine trying to turn over or a power stroke. If I set the valve up so its travel into the cylinder is not limited - i.e. it get's pulled further in causing more overlap with the port, I think I get some sort of power stroke but then the valve sticks - surely this can't be the right way to set it up though as some of the power stroke will be wasted pulling the valve in at the same time as the piston.

Anyway, the only thing left to try really is reaming out the cylinder with an adjustable reamer (luckily I have found one the right size range) to make sure it is perfectly round and parallel - it isn't at the moment which is why the valve sticks. Then I will have to make a new piston and valve so will need to go and buy some more cast iron. I will also take the opportunity to make these components to the drawing this time, i.e. hollowed out incase this 'quenching' phenomonen people have talked about has any effect.

If those things don't work, along with a larger burner wick, I will just have to put it down to the fact my machining isn't quite up to the job yet! At which point, after having a good cry, I will start collecting materials together for 'poppin'. I get the impression this might be a tiny bit more forgiving but I still think it'll be a challenge - hopefully if nothing else I'll be able to learn a few lessons from my first flame gulper experience!


Here is a pic of the engine with experimental flywheel:



Not pretty but gave me a chance to try out some of my christmas pressies:



  :offtopic: Not shown in there was a set of carbide tipped lathe tools and a set of metric taps & dies. The idea with the carbide tools being that it will save me a lot of time setting tool heights, if they are all the same height I can make 1 piece of packing the correct height.

Unfortunately I didn't do my homework very well and the 8mm shank ones are a  bit small for my lathe really. Still seem to work really well, I only tried what I assume is a roughing tool on the aluminium flywheel and it gave a cracking finish as long as I kept cleaning the build up off it and had the speed higher than usual.

Also tried a 4mm tap and die from the axminster set which worked well except the T type tap wrench which didn't seem to grip very well - I think the tap was just too big for it.

The keyless drill chuck that Bogs recommended from RDG really does look amazing quality for the price but they have sent a MT with a tang on it and it won't fit in my milling machine, too long I think so can't try it yet.

Other things include a de-burring tool which works nicely for holes. A small metric tap and dies set, slide way oil and cutting oil, a tailstock die holder and a wiggler set, which if anybody knows how to use, please tell me!

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline Bernd

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #109 on: December 29, 2009, 10:01:48 AM »
Nick,

Put the engine aside for a while. Perhaps one day you'll have an "Ah ha" moment and get it to run.

Nice pressies by the way. I've got tool envey.  :clap:

Bernd
Route of the Black Diamonds

Offline NickG

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #110 on: December 29, 2009, 03:39:54 PM »
Bernd,

I think that's what it needs! I'll do the things I'm thinking about whilst they are fresh in my mind but then I will do as you suggest and move on. I will need something to pick me back up and put a smile on my face after this! I don't want to jump out of the frying pan and into the fire though so I'll be extra careful with my next project!

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline sorveltaja

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #111 on: December 29, 2009, 04:14:14 PM »
Nick, if in doubt about the cylinder and piston not sealing well enough, consider making new ones. But don't do it in a hurry.

Especially the lapping is most tedious part, but if done slowly and carefully, it definitely pays back :thumbup:.

Offline Darren

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #112 on: December 30, 2009, 07:43:57 AM »
Good advice from Bernd,

Good chance in the next six mths you'd read something somewhere, or make something that'll give you a  :doh: moment and you'll run back to this little project and get it running just fine  :thumbup:


I often put things to one side for later when a bit stuck ....  :scratch:
You will find it a distinct help… if you know and look as if you know what you are doing. (IRS training manual)

Offline Bernd

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #113 on: December 30, 2009, 08:56:26 AM »
I often put things to one side for later when a bit stuck ....  :scratch:

I must really be stuck by the amount of projects waiting to get finished.  :lol:  :lol:

Bernd
Route of the Black Diamonds

Offline NickG

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #114 on: December 30, 2009, 11:00:12 AM »
I had a decent night in the workshop last night. I reamed the cylinder with that adjustable reamer and plenty of oil. The bore is now very round and parallel compared to before. I am not going to bother lapping at this stage as I think the finish is smooth enough. I also turned an aluminium valve - this may be no good, it was more of an exercise to find out what a good fit is. I turned one to a few hundreths of a mm below the bore size and it is a much superior fit than before. Slides freely yet seems very air tight without oil. I will probably give it a try, until I can get some more cast iron. I just need to do the piston to the same standard now. Not sure whether to try aluminium again to keep weight down or gunmetal which would probably be better for the application. It's just the differential expansion that I'm worried about - it could bind up when the bits get hot. I can only try, if it doesn't work after this I'm at a definite loss - the fit is definitely good enough now, and it is the same at any position now.

Nick

ps I had a reply from a French chap that had made one and showed it on youtube. He was quite helpful with timing figures and directed me to a french forum - this was the first bit I clicked on:

http://www.blooo.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2403&p=1

Nice finish on that one!
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline jim

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #115 on: December 30, 2009, 11:07:06 AM »
thats a work of art!

are you going to try an ally piston?

if i'd thought it through, i'd have never tried it

Offline NickG

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #116 on: December 30, 2009, 11:13:18 AM »
Jim,

I think I might try one as it looks like the shop where I was going to get my cast iron is having a xmas break! The ally seems ok for the valve, but that's without any heat and there aren't any sideways forces on the valve. So I fear the combination of the differential expansion and a bit of sideways force on the piston may cause binding with the ally. For what it takes, I think I'll turn one up from ally, even if it doesn't run I'll be able to tell you if the friction dramatically increased etc.

I could end up making 3 sets of piston and valve at this rate and I have already made 2 or 3 before hand!
Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline NickG

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #117 on: December 31, 2009, 02:56:38 PM »
Hi all,

Got more done in workshop last night - got the valve finished and the piston made, both from aluminium this time. All was going very well until I used my new tail stock die holder to thread the bit that goes inside the piston for the wrist / gudgeon pin and it snapped! I think I’d done the undercut too deep, so I did it again without an undercut! Luckily it didn’t take long the 2nd time as everything was set up. It took me ages to get the vice clocked back square on the milling machine etc.



The piston is pretty much to Jan’s original design now, just the wrong material!


Anyway, the piston and valve both had a very nice fit. Excellent seal whilst hardly any friction.
It was 00:50 hrs by the time I finished that so I thought I’d leave test run for today.  Just tried it and there was good and bad news!

Here is the good news:


This is actually quite a bit more free running than before and with a better fit, that can only be a good thing.

However, when I pre warmed the cylinder to get rid of any condensate first, my worst fears came into being! I half expected this to happen!


The engine had seized completely due to the aluminium expanding faster than the cast iron!  :doh:

So at least this exercise tells us something we thought anyway - it’s not easy to use aluminium pistons with cast iron where heat is involved! It may be possible with the correct clearances though – not sure how to calculate this and have no desire to.  :smart: I’ll have to wait for some cast iron now.

Promising though, If I can achieve the same fit with the cast iron there SHOULD be nothing stopping it from running!

Here is a pile of scrap – there were a couple of other components that got shot straight in the bin in anger – at least the experimental flywheel can be saved for future projects!


Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline jim

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #118 on: December 31, 2009, 03:47:27 PM »
i'm gutted! :doh:

i really thought it'd run!

like you said to me before about using the "correct" material!

looking forward to the cast iron piston being made :thumbup:
if i'd thought it through, i'd have never tried it

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #119 on: January 01, 2010, 03:34:35 AM »
i'm gutted! :doh:

i really thought it'd run!

like you said to me before about using the "correct" material!

looking forward to the cast iron piston being made :thumbup:

Me too!

I really thought you had sorted it this time Nick. 

Onwards an upwards........  :thumbup:

David D
David.

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Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline NickG

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #120 on: January 01, 2010, 05:56:36 AM »
Jim,

Maybe an aluminium cylinder and piston would work? The only issue I see is the aluminium is relatively soft, although I'm using 7075 (i think) it still seems to score quite easily so it might cause unnecessary friction. Worth a try perhaps.

Can't get the cast iron probably until friday   :( unless I can get away from work early one night!

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline NickG

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #121 on: January 04, 2010, 06:57:43 PM »
Hi, Happy New Year to you all.

I feel I’ve made a pretty big step in the right direction over the weekend. On the off chance that it was open, I rang the metal place on Sat morning as we needed to go into town to find a new internal door. We can feel the draught from the utility room when in kitchen with this cold weather - the previous owners, for reasons only known to themselves took off the door and put it in the garden! Anyway, the metal place was open, so I got enough metal to do a new piston / valve for this engine and make two 'poppin' engines! Not bad for £16 squid, I like the fact that I can just work direct to proven drawings with known materials at that price.

Anyway, digressing again, I will just call the piston and valve pistons from now on as it’s annoying the heck out of me! I was allowed into the garage on Saturday afternoon to make new pistons from the cast iron bar as I couldn’t wait! I made them as good a fit as I could. That was the same dimensions as the alloy ones I made. They felt slightly sticky at first but a few strokes up and down in the cylinder knocked any high spots off. I’m sure people have got better fits than me, but I don’t think I’ll get them any better. The bore of the cylinder and the surface of the pistons weren’t  polished, I didn’t do any lapping this time, the bore was reamed with an adjustable reamer with plenty of oil and the pistons were just turned with new carbide cutting tool with the slowest feed. They both have a very smooth feel to them and I think better like that than if I tried to lap them and make them not parallel or round.

I carefully cleaned and assembled the new components and spun the engine over with a flick of the flywheel – it ran very freely but made a nice sucking noise as with the alloy pistons. So I decided to try it. I warmed the cylinder with a pencil torch first then lit the meths burner. I was shocked when the engine started to pick up on it’s own. This was with the original cast iron flywheel incidentally. I watched in awe for a few seconds then rushed for the camera but by the time I got back it was slowing down and came to a halt. There was now some friction present, the meths I am using seems to put a nasty brown deposit on everything. So I tried some 3 in 1 oil but immediately noticed as a lot of people have said, it caused too much drag.

At this point I had arranged to go to a friend’s, but I went with a spring in my step and couldn’t stop thinking about it – I can’t be far away.

I’ve had another couple of chances to try running it since. One session late that night when I got back, and one on Sunday afternoon, both not totally successful though unfortunately.

Here is a short video from the first:


I seem to have found the optimum flame position for mine, which is very strange – it’s actually the other side of the port which is bizarre. The next best position seems to be where Jan Ridders suggests and Bogs positioned their flames but it doesn’t seem as good there, the flame gets blown about more.

Another thing I tried was changing the flywheel to the alloy one. That doesn’t seem to have enough inertia. It won’t carry it to the next stroke more than a couple of times and sort of kicks back. But maybe the big one still has too much – not sure, I don’t think so otherwise it wouldn’t run for as long as it did probably? I don’t want to take anything off the flywheel anyway because I can’t add it back on!

The engine seems to run for only around 30 seconds before it gives up the ghost. I think there are a couple of reasons for that, 1 is the deposit I am getting from the meths. I need to try to get hold of some denatured alcohol which is supposed to be better in that respect. The other thing is, as everybody has mentioned, they are very sensitive to flame position and the flame getting out of shape. I’ve noticed that I am using a wick ½ the diameter of what Jan suggests. Only 4mm instead of 8mm. That larger width of flame might give it more stability.

Here are two more runs, please excuse the noise from the kids they weren’t aware of the significance of this moment in my life! I was going to try and edit these for the best bits but might as well show them warts and all incase anybody picks up on anything.



In the last video, when I start it the final time, you can actually see the engine accelerate a little when I shoved the burner right into that corner in front of the port. This pleased me somewhat. Also in the last two videos I was using some very light oil which worked wonders on my stirling engine. Trouble is, I don’t really know what it is, it came with some electric hair clippers! The oil seems to prevent build up of the residue whilst maintaining a good seal and keeping friction down when hot.

So a couple of things I am thinking are:
1.   I really need a larger diameter wick, so I’ll make a new burner cap with larger wick tube.
2.   I need to try some denatured alcohol if possible, hopefully without nasty residues.
3.   Could I make a drip feed oil cup at each end of the cylinder like ‘poppin’ has. The author of that article swears blind the oil feed is necessary, he suggests sewing machine oil. Marv has also backed this up with ‘Poppin’. Mine does seem to like the oil. When it stops and I re-apply a couple of drops of oil, it restarts again no trouble and doesn’t get snarled up with residue. However, the denatured alcohol may solve that, or a special gas burner like Bogs suggested earlier in the thread.
I’m feeling a lot more optimistic now, still some way to go but some encouraging progress. Thanks to all for your interest and input.

All the best.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline sbwhart

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #122 on: January 05, 2010, 02:51:15 AM »
Well done Nick looks like you've got this one licked
 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

As you've done you just have to go back over things tuning as you go, and gradually you get on top.


Get the bigger wick sort out the meths and the oil and you'll have a real good running engine.

Have fun

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
 :wave:

Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Offline NickG

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #123 on: January 05, 2010, 03:28:42 AM »
Thanks Stew,

I hope so! Somebody mentioned that my flame doesn't really look right and it just occured to me that my meths is probably over 10 years old! Wonder if it's hydroscopic or something. Either way, will try some new stuff, hopefully the purer denatured stuff if I can get my hands on it.

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: New Project Started!
« Reply #124 on: January 05, 2010, 04:27:36 AM »
Blummin well done Nick!  :clap: :clap: :clap:

For toy steaming, hot air, & flamelicker engines, I now only use 5w-30 fully synthetic motor oil...... Far superior to 3 in 1 in hot situations.  :thumbup:

I cadged a half empty 1 ltr bottle from the service station, at my last MOT test.  :D



Not used `em myself, yet. But these suppliers are recommended for industrial meths.....

http://www.rydenor.co.uk/index.php?cPath=51&osCsid=1293448a229999a03d1c967732bda334

http://www.wood-finishes-direct.com/products/wood-finishes/thinners/industrial-methylated-spirit.htm

David D
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 04:29:19 AM by Stilldrillin »
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!