What will happen?

[bogstandard]

After reading of the sad passing of Jerry Howell, I got to thinking (not often I do that).

Over the last few years we have lost such a lot of the people who made model engines for us a way of life, prolific engine builders and plan producers such as Tom Walshaw (Tubal Cain), Bob Shores, Bill Reichhart, and unfortunately only a few days ago, under very suspicious circumstances, Malcolm Stride. These are people who are being referred to by modern day machinists, and also some of the greats are there as well, Edgar T Westbury, Lillian "Curly" Lawrence (LBSC) and Elmer Verberg, to name a few.

What will happen when the last of the few from nowadays are gone? It seems there is no-one standing in the wings as worthy successors to replace them. We seem to be just copying all the old designs, not really reinventing new ones.

There are very few really good plans being released, Jan Ridders is about the only good modern one I can think of, and a couple of French ones who I follow.

I am wondering if it is because the modern generation doesn't really have access to the old machinery and engines from the past, and almost anything produced today isn't worth modelling because it is all classed as disposable.

Are we all to be left looking into the past?

Lets hear all your views on this please. Will model engineering as we know it soon disappear?


Bogs

[Spen50]

Here's my thoughts:
Metalwork in general is not taught in schools any more due to H&S and other causes such as, it's not seen as "academic",  it's seen as dirty and hard work and not many kids these days like that.  All I get from my kids is " it's too hard can't you do it" when asked to do a bit of filing or hacksawing.

I could go on but it would turn into a rant about declining standards etc.

[kvom]

We seem to be just copying all the old designs

I don't regard that as a bad thing, necessarily.  I've always been fascinated by complex machinery.  While at university I was an editor of the school weekly paper.  In those days, the paper was produced with type cast on a Linotype machine, and one of my duties was to go to the printer and proofread the copy.  I could have watched the mechanisms of that machine all day.

[jim]

i think engineering is on its knees anyway, this country used to have 100,000's of skilled engineers. nowadays most young people don't want to know.

i've trianed a lot of apprentices over the years, its sad to see that most of them have no passion for engineering.

a few years ago, at a place i used to work (and served my "time" at) the apprentices finished their year in the trianing center and everyone of them chucked the tools they'd made during that year. tap wrenches, punches, vee blocks, die holders, even drill drifts. i asked a few of them why, they said they didn't want to work machines!!!

most people nowadays don't even have toolboxes.

sorry to rant

[rleete]

About a year ago, I came out front where the neighbors were standing around talking.  I was filthy, having just redone the brakes on my Jeep.  I bragged that I had just spent less than $300 in parts, and just over 2 hours to do a job that the shop quoted almost $1k to do.  The response was one of incredulity.  "You do your own brakes?  Aren't you afraid of not stopping?"  Well, no.  Since I did them myself, I am reassured that they were done right.  Not a single person in that group had ever worked on a car.  I'm considered somewhat of a wizzard for doing my own work, instead of paying to have it done.  I also used to build my own computers.  Not much point in it these days, as Dell and other suppliers can do it for not a lot more than I can, but I still do the odd job of fixing and/or upgrading my and my friend's rigs.  That, too, invokes looks of surprise.  It's all greek to the uninitiated.

If dad sits and watches sports on the weekends instead of working on stuff or making something, the kids are likely to grow up doing the same.  Not many are adventurous to start tearing into something that they have no practical experience doing.  And, not too many parents would be comfortable letting junior tear into the family car.  No 12-16 year old is likely to spend the bucks to get a lathe or mill, so if dad or grandad or the uncles don't have them, there isn't any machinery to work on.  If my father hadn't had some woodworking tools, I'd never have had the experience to use any, and never aquired the skills to get my own tools later on.  So, you old hands take it upon yourselves to teach as much as you can.  Websites like this on and others help, but the hands-on personal instruction is invaluable.  Books and text can only convery so much.


On the other hand, the modern hot rodding community is alive and well.  Hondas, Miatas and other small cars are regularly turboed and tuned to amazing HP levels.  Lots of websites and lots of parts suppliers out there.  They wouldn't exist if there wasn't a demand, and the demand wouldn't be there if someone hadn't started the whole thing.  So, I think there may be more interest than is readily apparent.  Remember, the reason those aformentioned individuals stand out is because they were one in a million.  The next one may be just as yet undiscovered.

[raynerd]

John, one of the issues is surely that practical skills in metal work and similar skills are not taught anymore. I can`t name a college in the local area that teaches it, I know because I have looked.

You mentioned Jan Ridders as an example of a modern innovative designer, do you not think this is because his work is primely in Stirling engines which in some ways is still quite a undiscovered or relatively unexplored area. I appreciate that Stirling has been discovered in the 1880`s but still much less time than the 2000+ years that people have been using steam, consequently a lot of work and improvements have been made in this area. It is a lot harder to design something "new" in steam when so much work has already been done, builders are tending just to re-arrange previous workings or copy past designs?

It is only a suggestion, am I way off the mark?

[sbwhart]

Its the way engineering is perceived by society, I got on my high horse this morning after reading an article in the paper:-

Some politicians are calling for more technical schools to make good the sort fall of builders, technicians and engineers, but the established education systems says this would be second best to traditional study and children would be "pigeonholed at too early an age and be denied a chance to excel academically.  This to me is implying that any one who follows a technical or focasional education is a failure.

I followed a focasional education and I don't consider myself a failure far from it, and many of my contempories also went to have very successful productive lives many of them going on to own and run their own busneses.

These people will wake up one day when they have no one to build and mend the roads, build their houses repair their cars, fix their plumbing, generate their electricity, etc etc etc.

That my rant over for the day

Stew

[No1_sonuk]

It is a lot harder to design something "new" in steam when so much work has already been done, builders are tending just to re-arrange previous workings or copy past designs?

It is only a suggestion, am I way off the mark?

I'm with you there.

Sbwhart, I think " focasional " should be "vocational".

[sbwhart]

It is a lot harder to design something "new" in steam when so much work has already been done, builders are tending just to re-arrange previous workings or copy past designs?

It is only a suggestion, am I way off the mark?

I'm with you there.

Sbwhart, I think " focasional " should be "vocational".

Thanks:- spelling one of those things thats held me back all my life, I'm little bit word blind, but I don't let it stop me communicating.

Stew

[Bearcar1]

In my modest and worthless opinion, several of the causes for the decline in 'stand out' engineers has been touched upon here. In this country (USA), businesses have moved their production plants off-shore (to reduce costs(?)) and even the unions themselves have become too complacent about expanding and nurturing the labor forces that they were meant to represent. The fact is that the labor force has been reduced to a mere handful of mindless "I push this button if I want this and I push that button if I want that" types of workers, no real skill involved just knowing the correct button to press and in what order. After that, "HUH????" or "Say Wha'???" The true knowledge base has been allowed to shrink and is now in danger of extinction, due to (a reduction of cost(?)) The second thing that has been touched upon is the allowance of the younger generations to be coddled and not forced to complete anything that may be difficult or challenging. Instead the educational institutions have eliminated (cost reductions again(?)) the very fundamental industrial arts programs. If you have read this so far you have no doubt picked up on a repeating factor here.......wait for it...... Cost Reduction. Bottom line. Moolah baby. Cash-ola!!! Our entire society has been reduced to "what is the bottom line?" and "what's it gonna cost me?" mentalities. Enough already. So the greedy Bast**ds won't make their 100 million this year. So what. If they make $1 they should get down and kiss the ground and be happy in knowing that they successfully turned a profit. Instead these same people (individuals) cannot be satisfied with that and put the skilled labor, the ones that actually do know how the machines are made and work out to pasture. So, my feelings about why there are no more talented and willing engineers in the wings is simple ... The Cost Reductions.

Here endeth the lesson

BC1

[Spen50]

Cost reductions by large firms may be one contributing factor, but certainly here in the UK the main one is the major decline in education standards.  As has been said virtually no schools in the UK have engineering on the curriculum as it is non academic and therefore is not part of the target driven structure that governs our education system today.
So who in the UK gets any manually orientated skills training?
Well here in Lincolnshire it's usually older people like me who want to further their skills base, bored youths on day release to the local Tech or (and this is what I do) the ones that the schools regard as un-educatable  are sent to Vocational Training units where they are taught skills they can use in real life.  Where I work we teach Metalwork, woodwork and motor mechanics.  There are others in the area that teach other skills like bricklaying and plumbing.

So in answer to my question:
who in the UK gets any manually orientated skills training?
Those who outside of mainstream education.

I feel better for that.
But I may continue later 

[Bernd]

Walk through any high volume production shop. What do you see? Multi axis and multi spindle machines cranking out complicated parts by the thousands. You only need a couple of master monkeys to program the machine. The lower mentality monkeys just need to be trained to put the part on, push the green button, wait for the light to come on to say the parts finish and take the finished part off. "Recycle procedure as needed".  And why has it become like this? Because we want the parts delivered "yesterday", not tomorrow or today, but yesterday. We are impatient and greedy that's why we are at this the point in history.

Now getting off soap box.

Bernd

[Baldrocker]

  slightly

major decline in education standards

Spen50.
Here in Australia there is a move to raise the school leaving age to 17.
The proposed reasoning behind this is to combat the number of 15yr olds
leaving with poor/non-existent literacy and numeracy skills. I cannot see how keeping
an illiterate teenager at school for an extra 2yrs is going to improve matters.
START TEACHING THE BASICS IN PRIMARY SCHOOL NOT REMEDIAL CLASSES IN HIGH SCHOOL
Sorry for the rant its my favourite hobby horse, or maybe I've turned into an Old Fart in my dotage.
BR
PS I dont blame youngsters for taking the easy way out, after all its the nature of the beast.
PPS Someone start a thread on the lack of discipline for kids.

[Bernd]

I need to add to my rant a bit. While taking a nice soak in the whirlpool tube I was rereading for the millionth time maybe one of Guy Lautard's Bedside Reader's. I'm working on one of his projects.

So now on to the soap box:

As I was looking through the book I realized that a majority of his little storys was about making something, such as tooling, or a better way of doing something. In all his Reader's there is no plans of any kind of engine, steam, IC or stirling. It's all about tooling and the process of making it. Same goes for the Wisdom series by Village press. Only Duclos and Kouhoupt has plans for engines. Elmer even includes a section in the end of his book on making some tooling.

What am I getting at. Well take a look at the newbies that come on any of the forums that has metal content in it. They ask what kind of engine they should start out with and the usall answer is a wobbler. Next question usally is what kind of equipment do I need to build it. So he gathers the lathe and mill. He is going to start machining without having any knowledge about tooling how it's made or what have you. Everybody sends him to the Internet catalogs to buy his tooling.

So my questions is were did the Old Model Engineers get there tooling from? No ArcErou or MSC or Enco. They had to make their own tooling. Can you imagine telling a newbie he needs to make a tool post holder before he can turn the piston, or he has to make a milling cutter to mill the flat on the cylinder. This is how the old timers learned. At least they had an understanding of how tools were made and used. I've seen questions asked, I'm sure some of you can relate, "Why can't I used carbide to cut on a small lathe? It squeals and jumps all over the place." Then you tell them they should be using a high speed tool and it needs to be ground a certain shape for it to cut. Oh heaven forbid you mean I need to get near that spinning wheel. I could hurt my fingers.

I think laziness and stupidity is eventually going to kill the model engineering hobby. Plus there's lot's of places out there where you can buy your fun in pretty packages.

Getting off soap box:

Am now going to have a beer and finish reading tonights posts.

Bernd

[Darren]

Can you imagine telling a newbie he needs to make a tool post holder before he can turn the piston,

I think laziness and stupidity is eventually going to kill the model engineering hobby.

Bernd

Well said, making tooling is not only satisfying but also valuable learning......

[Divided he ad]

Well John,

You certainly know how to open the can of worms!  



There surely can't be that much left to invent?  New designs however, most all of the "new" models now made are made from a mix'n'match of older stuff aren't they?

Model engineering is a thing that many people like myself stumble across later in life isn't it?
I believe that it will produce many different forms of "engineer" too, the backgrounds of the "new model engineers" will surely have influence on the product designed and built....

For instance, as I see it.....

I am a mechanic by trade, not one with the ability to make detailed plans, I make many things directly as I envision them, the odd little scribbled sketch to assist. almost all of my produced parts are "one off" kind of things. Made using existing plans and re-engineering them on the fly you might say? I will pass on very little machining knowledge in my time, I will try to help anyone if I can but most of what I do is in pictorial form only and as such offers only limited help.


"Design and computer backgrounds" seem to produce other types of model engineers that will re-design the engines (and other things) they see and create extravagant plans and 3D renderings to then follow to the 1000th of an inch tolerance.
These guys are the model engine designers of the future because they will leave a plan behind that others can follow and adapt again and again.


Then there are "the Boggies" of this world, a completely different kettle of fish!
You are the guys who have learnt and acquired the machining talent over many years and do their best to help others learn from it.
You try your best show them how you do it,(people don't always understand I know.... I'm a good example!) how to get around an issue and with the aid of the interweb you are leaving a huge amount of knowledge behind you where once only books or magazines could achieve such. From tooling through to work holding and machining methods, things many of us wouldn't know any other way, you guys are showing many of us the way....
Don't play this down, it is a rare thing to find guys who are willing to help others selflessly and to the extent that you all go to.  



Model engineering....... I don't think it's dying as such, more taking a different path. For better or worse.....? We will see!












Ralph.




P.S.  I think we should be wary of the "political stuff" it'll ruin many a forum!! I've edited this down greatly to make it easier reading!

[John Hill]

[Translated from the Olde Englishe]

I say unto you that the end is nigh for the skills of the iron working guilds. Maudsley has built his infernal machine which will see us screw filers in the poor house for the rest of our days.

[bogstandard]

This post has gone off in a different direction than what I envisioned, but it doesn't matter, everyone has come up with their own points and views about the subject. Which is what a forum is all about.

A few have come up with social arguments the sort of mirror my way of thinking.

At one time on the social ladder you were recognised for your skills, but it seems that the modern world has gone to a system where you are recognised and revered by the amount of money you have.

Another very valid point is about making your own tooling. I am guilty as the next person on that score, and I think it has a little to do with my age as well.
To me now, my time is precious, and all those tools that we had to make to get the job done are now readily available for prices that don't justify making ourselves. That is just a sad fact of the way model engineering and machining in general has gone. It is more cost and time effective to do it that way. But don't get me wrong, I still make a lot of my own special tooling and jigs because I look at it from two different angles.

A) Is the tooling available for the job I want to do. If yes I go to the next angle. If not, I get my hands dirty and make it myself.

B) If the tool is available, is it cost effective for me to buy it or make it myself. A good example is the tramming tool. About 130 squid to buy, about 30 squid to make yourself. No arguments, make it myself. Another is a blank end MT arbor. About 5 squid or less to buy, or maybe a couple of hours to make yourself, no arguments from me on that score, I buy it.

But that is just my way of thinking. People get great pleasure from spending hours making the most mundane bit of tooling that only cost pennies to buy. They get their enjoyment from making it, not about how much they have saved in time and effort. Everyone to their own, and those wishes have to be respected to the full, on the understanding that information should be provided for those that won't or can't go down that route, if at all possible.

Now to the point raised by Ralph concerning sharing information.

Now this isn't going to be a Bible or Koran bashing session, I had religion knocked out of me many years ago, but again, everyone to their own. This is to describe a point of view.

I had a long discussion one time with a minister of my then faith, and a statement he made to me is the way I have run my life ever since. He asked me what a Christian was, and I gave him all the usual answers back. He told me I was talking a load of BS.

His way of explaining was, being a 'Christian' is just a way people describe it in our general language, for all other religions and faiths, they would use a different word. 
The true meaning is 'To give freely, and ask for nothing in return'.

So this is now getting back to the point of this discussion.

If it costs you nothing, then why not share it. Then we all benefit from the information.

I have never professed to know everything, and some of my information might be wrong, but if it is found to be wrong, I will admit to it. I share my experiences and information that have come my way over the years, and because I have had such a diverse life, those experiences cover a large area. I could just as easily keep it to myself and everyone will be none the wiser, but by sharing what I know just might strike a spark in someones imagination and take them onto greater things. I don't do what I do for praise or reward, I do it because I want to.

The key ingredient is sharing information. Even a newbie will have something to give into the knowledge base, and I for one will pick up on it. Everyone has something to give, whether it is Bernd's bent nail saga or Zeus's sidewinder build, it all adds up in the melting pot, and we all learn from it. From the easiest little exercise to the very complex builds.

This is the only way that engineering is to survive. The ones mentioned in my original posting passed on information, and many more that weren't mentioned as well. If we can carry on that tradition in the following generations, just maybe that little candle in the distance can be kept lit.

Sermon over, now lets have a bit more of a discussion about this engineering and making stuff thing.


Bogs

[NickG]

Some really good points in this thread. I agree on a lot of it.

I think a lot of it is just the way technology is progressing so quickly which is changing the way people are brought up. Because of this, the types of skills we are talking about are disappearing. For example, I would guess the majority of todays youth would prefer to be at some theme park rather than a model engineering exhibition or steam fair and the parents would probably rather get their money's worth and take the kids somewhere they'll enjoy rather than waste it on something they won't. All the old hobbies and games don't exist any more due to computer games, the internet etc. How many kids do you see making their own go-karts these days? So I think modern technology accounts for some of this, i.e. the computer in general. Obviously they play a big part in childrens lives with games etc.  now, but they're everywhere you look.

Another good example someone mentioned was in the automotive industry. People are put off repairing cars these days due to the change in technology. When you open the bonnet of a new car it's bewildering, on the face of it, you think you can't do much to it, so you shut the bonnet and take it to the dealers! Who promptly replace whichever bit needs replacing - they don't repair things any more either. This just gets passed on through the generations then, people have no practical skills.

Partly education is responsible, but more so the upbringing of children I think. I didn't do a great deal of wood or metal work at school but I had an interest from an early age, probably due to spending time at my grandparents doing all sorts in the garage on my own that people wouldn't dream of letting their children do these days ... so maybe that's an over the top safety culture coming into play? So I pursued the hobby myself and was obviously fully backed by my family (which probably wouldn't happen these days either - I see the bewildered look on parents faces sometimes as they look at our models and you can tell they are thinking "what is that and where do you buy them?"!). I joined a model engineering society at 13 with my best friend. He didn't go for long, although he was interested, he just didn't have the passion for it I did. He wasn't brought up around old cars that needed repairing all the time etc. I quickly found that other members, although most of which were about 50 years my senior, had similar child hoods ... I guess you could say I was old fashioned then! I was lucky enough that once my family realised I was deadly serious about the hobby, all my christmas and birthdays reflected that! My mum tells the story now - I was weird, I used to ask for an axe and a grinder every year from the age of about 6 or 7 ... but when I was about 15, I actually got those presents! I was also given my grandads ML7 lathe which was a massive bonus, but if I wasn't given it, I would have got my hands on one somehow. Incidentally, the lathe my grandad had before that was one he had made himself!

An old friend of mine from our club rang me up some months ago asking if my lathe was ok. He was actually going to give me his myford ML7 as he had just ordered himself a nearly new one. I said I'd bought the harrison and I could not have accepted it in any case. He said he offered it to his grandson but he wasn't interested! I know Tom was trying to stir the enthusiasm in his grandson from an early age, he occasionally visited his club, but he obviously didn't do the same type of activities at home as he quickly lost interest. I guess all sorts come into it like peer pressure and all the rest of it.

At the moment my eldest son (3 1/2) is really into it, he spends a lot of time with me in the garage winding lathe handwheels around and playing with some of my unfinished projects - simplicity steam roller and 3 1/2" gauge loco! If his grandma finds out she'll have kittens! But who knows, he could easily lose interest, he's already interested in computers, TV and all the other bad stuff but I'll try my best!

Onto model engineering as we know it. I think bogs post is spot on. I reckon it's going to disappear within another few generations. I think there will be producers of castings and drawings around for a while, but there'll probably be a rise in suppliers of machined kits and finished models for people that can use a screwdriver and executive models. I doubt there'll be many of the likes of the people Bogs mentioned though. I remember when I first joined the our club, there was a really old chap that instead of blindly following drawings and castings spend his time going to the local railway museum, studying and measuring engines. He made some really interesting models of some of the first locomotives, all drawn up and made by studying the real thing. I remember him showing me the wheels which had to be fabricated to match the originals, and they looked spot on! These people are a dying breed.
People like Jan Ridders though, are even fewer and farther between. He's come up with his own concepts, put them into practive and is prepared to get it all down on paper for other people to have a go at.

It's sad, but I don't really see how the hobby can survive.  Hopefully it'll see me and my sons out though.

Nick

[No1_sonuk]

Computers and the internet have really been a double-edged sword.  On the one hand the games, etc. are drawing the youth away from more practical activities, but on the other, a lot more of the "old hands" can more easilly spread what knowledge they have.  And also have that knowledge available long after they can no longer impart it in person.

WRT "newbies" contributing:  I'd dare say there are numerous examples where such a person asks a question no one had thought of before, or even an old question in a new way, spawning a train of thought in the more experienced which leads to a better way of doing something.

I'm relatively new to this hobby, and am an electronics engineer by trade, but I did do some machine work as part of my apprenticeship 20 years ago.  I've had a lathe since March, and only just got around to making things with it that aren't FOR it.

It's really only recently that I've had the space, and money, to take it up.
It's kind of like someone said Deloreans would sell if they went back into production - All the kids who saw "Back to the Future" and wanted one in the 80s can now afford one!

[rleete]

We seem to be just copying all the old designs, not really reinventing new ones.

I've been thinking on this.  I've made some unique designs, but I'm certainly not inventing anything.  After all, in spite of how unusual it may look, a wobbler is still a wobbler.  I've come up with my own spin on the appearance, but if it uses a slide valve, it's going to be pretty damn close to what has been made many thousands of times before.  Rather than a new design, it's more like super blinging of existing ones.

There are still people designing pneumatic cylinders and parts for companies such as Bimba.  The basic cylinder hasn't changed much in several centuries, but there are constant refinements in materials, methods of manufacture, mounting styles and such.  Put up against the vast array of cylinders in the world, there isn't a heck of a lot that someone from 200 years ago wouldn't recognise as a basic pneumatic actuator.

Should I publish my designs?  Probably.  But making drawings is work (it's what I get paid to do) and I'm lazy.  Anyone with some imagination should be able to come up with new ways of making interesting engines as well as I can.  And I'm no expert on the mathematics or technical aspects of steam engines, so I'll defer to those who've already done that.  If I finish anything, I'll post pics, and hope that it helps fire the imagination of someone else.  Maybe post some pics of the solid models (easier for me to make pretty pictures than finished engines), with the hope that inspires as well.

[bogstandard]

No1,

Your first quote about computers is spot on.

If it wasn't for the internet, I think model engineering would be on it's downwards spiral. I didn't say home machining because people have workshops for a lot of reasons for the activities they do, restoring old cars, bikes etc.

Model engineering was really a word of mouth thing years ago, you saw an engine say at a local fayre or gathering and you asked how they got hold of it, and you were invited to come along to the next society meeting, or a workmate would tell you about what he got up to in the evenings and would ask you down for a looksee.

When I was a very small lad, way back in the middle of the last century (makes you sound like hundreds of years old), our neighbour passed away, and it wasn't until years later that I realised he was a model engineer. I then understood what the raised tracks that went around his garden were, and all the machinery and small locos that were being carried out of his big wooden shed. I never saw anything running, but now I realise that in those days, during the week you were in bed and fast asleep at 6pm, and at the weekends, as soon as it was light in the morning, you were out in the country all day with your mates. He was most probably making when I was asleep, and running when I wasn't there.

So basically, the internet has allowed model engineering come out from behind closed doors and show what we get up to, and so strike a spark into people who see what we do, and want to follow in our footsteps. That is why we should pass on as much info as we can, before the internet gets completely swamped with utter garbage and becomes unusable.

When you see the number of hits on youtube vids about things we have made, or the membership of model engineering based websites, it shows we really are in a very small and fragile minority, considering how many civilised people there are on our little rock.

Roger,

I understand exactly where you are coming from. When I made my slide valve engines that made up my 'book', I was working in my shop up to ten hours during the day and then 3 to 4 hours doing the writeup in the evening. That went on for two months, it wore me out.

It takes people a lot stronger willed than me to keep up that sort of regime, even doing it once a year. How Jan Ridders gets thru his workload, I have no idea.

I was not inferring that we should show everything we do, the people on here only see a little of what I get up to, but any new ideas could be shown, and let people experiment with it if they like the idea. Or even a slant on an old idea could come up with a few interesting posts.

You only have to look at what Darren is doing. He is feeding the world. Tomato soup made from cast iron.

He only has to get it tasting like tomatoes, and it will be ready for full scale production.

Just little things standing in the way of progress.

Bogs

[Darren]

I have to admit if it wasn't for the internet I wouldn't have progressed very far, if at all.

I'm not saying I wouldn't have a workshop, but it would prob be full of very different tools and I'd still be struggling along.



I see the net as a double edge sword....


OTOH, my ex wanted new sparkplugs for her Scooby.....flash *%^$, anyway several garages turned her away as it's aparently not the easiest of jobs.

So my son did a bit of Googling and changed them for her......he's just turned 15yrs and has no trouble stripping bike engines down and putting them back together...

It must be in the genes....cos I didn't show him how....

[sorveltaja]

Without internet, I'd be totally on my own, without knowing that there are people, that are open-minded even to strangest ideas.
I dare to say, that in this country the model engineering is still generally considered as 'humbug', not a man's hobby.

Usual questions are: what can you use it for? Can I ride it? Does it peel potatoes? and so on.

No use to tell, that it's the device that implements nothing more than beauty of mechanical parts working together.

[RipSlider]

As far as "nothing new" is concerned, then, as has already been said, perhaps there isn't much left?

Steam has been worked on by a vast number of "the greats" for 150 years - how many very clever men can work on a single idea before your into diminishing returns? However, there are still refinements I guess - ME is running two brand new designs currently for steam. Or at least one and one modified version.

There are probably other area's where there still IS scope - a huge amount of scope- for new idea's. 2 stroke diesels. Pulse jets. small turbo-and super-charged systems. fuel economy. Quietness. etc etc etc. I think flash steam is in there as well.

I know I've said this before, but there doesn't seem a real incentive to do new design any more - as what new designs DO come out don't find an actual use. A new design for a vacuum engine is nice. A new beam engine is nice. A new 3 1/2" train is nice, but only "nice".

A new idea for a .61 engine which uses 25% less fuel, or produces 10% more power DOES have a use - to R/C aero, heli, car and boat guys. either of those two wins every race for a season. Put that design in ME and the shelves WILL empty. And a whole new generation will be buying lathes and mills and flooding these forums begging for assistance and advice. Make a working model showing you can reliably cool the air of an engine down by 10 degrees C without excessive moisture, and Ford have a $1m standing reward waiting for you.

I know such a design doesn't happen by magic - and I'm not in a position to preach as I know sod all about it - but I would put real money on the fact that if a new thread was opened up on this forum called "A better diesel engine" or "A fuel efficient 2-stroke engine" and everyone threw their ten-pence worth in, then some remarkable things - some remarkable idea's - would happen in days.

So maybe the question is: Is anyone actually asking for new designs? And if they are, is anyone listening?


On the other topic of "where's the interest going?" - the more general point - I think it's partly becuase model engineering is so hidden - how many 16 year old - fully internet savvy - kids in the average school do you think even suspect that there are multiple forums for discussing chopping up pieces of metal?

Also partly due to a lack of exposure - my old school can't use any of the machinery in the machine shops any more - health and safety - and my god-son's father was dragged into his school for a lecture because he  allowed his 11 year old son  to use a chisel over a weekend.


I guess, to balance the argument however, you also need to look at the other side. Perhaps ME is a declining hobby. Maybe less people are entering it. Maybe less designs are happening? It doesn't take my own pleasure away from it, so do I care? Should I care?

There was talk about the UK not needing the skills that we once did. And I guess that's true - a lot of the skills have moved to india, china etc. And a lot of them are entirely redundant. And that's very sad. but perhaps that's just the way things are? My uncle is a master blacksmith - won every award it's possible to win in the UK, and pretty much all of the US awards as well. But he's broke as hell, because there's just not that many horses to shoe or railings to make these days. And while it's sad, I'm not planning to swap my car for a lump of meat called Dobbin any time soon.


Steve