Author Topic: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?  (Read 88087 times)

Offline Arbalist

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #75 on: April 16, 2015, 10:37:07 AM »
As it's spinning I don't think the spot needs to be very round. For most purposes it's tracing a circle. Whilst we're doing this though a nice round spot may be useful. I've made a small hole in a post-it with a scriber and held it over the beam, it makes the dot smaller and certainly appears to make it rounder, so that' seems like it's easily doable.  :thumbup:

I forgot to mention. I'm impressed with Dan's setup and I fully understand why Pekka wants to make something similar. Most others though have made spindle mounted versions and I'm leaning in this direction so I can mount it in any of my chucks/collets.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #76 on: April 16, 2015, 10:49:31 AM »
Collimating lens , fixture rigidity to reduce line size, use of a pinhole.....I think you're on the right track,  :beer:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #77 on: April 16, 2015, 10:56:40 AM »
As it's spinning I don't think the spot needs to be very round. For most purposes it's tracing a circle.

It is tracing a circle, but the thickness of the perimeter of that circle depends on the orientation of an elliptical spot. If the minor axis of the dot (the narrower diameter) is set up in your spinning fixture so it is parallel to the axis of the fixture (a line from the diode to the center of the quill), your projected spinning line will be thinner than if you arrange it perpendicular. Just sayin......
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline Arbalist

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #78 on: April 16, 2015, 11:09:41 AM »
As it's spinning I don't think the spot needs to be very round. For most purposes it's tracing a circle.

It is tracing a circle, but the thickness of the perimeter of that circle depends on the orientation of an elliptical spot. If the minor axis of the dot (the narrower diameter) is set up in your spinning fixture so it is parallel to the axis of the fixture (a line from the diode to the center of the quill), your projected spinning line will be thinner than if you arrange it perpendicular. Just sayin......

Yes, you're quite right. And it could make quite a difference. As the Laser body is round though adjusting it to the best position is easy providing the design allows for it.

Offline appletree

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #79 on: April 16, 2015, 11:53:13 AM »
I started writing this post but was called away before submitting, what I was about to say is now in part history as more has been posted since I started writing, either way this is what I was going to say.

Although the quality and definition of the spot is of value, the human eye is very clever at estimation etc. I imagine that the imperfect dot will be repeatably imperfect so that quicker and possibly more accurate results may come from centering the target point in the middle of a slightly larger rotating beam rather than centering the laser dot on the target, if you follow what i mean

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #80 on: April 16, 2015, 03:35:52 PM »
My laser shows identical behaviour. I did some testing and reading. Laser diode does not produce clean dot, but the beam projects out as a wide fan line. After that it is clipped and collimated. When simply "focused" only focused point is roughly round and after that oval again.

VT is on the right track (or least on the same line than me) that using mirror/prism/lens and inclination to minimize effect of ovality.

As pointed before, clean point looks nice, but most of the time is not that important...I found out that rpm is importat to give correct visual glues.

I think that best accuracy is reached by visual means when sightest amount of scattered light envelopes on clear edge/side of the work piece.

It looks like acuracy depends very much of the shape of the work piece and angle of the laser beam that hits edge/side of the work piece. Looks like a upright cylinder/boss that has clean edge and large diameter is easy to center. Also looks like a tiny dot on the flat surface is very much not ideal for this type of centering.

Turners buttons or bearing rings probably would probably work very fine with this method. This would be very interesting if it turns out accurate.

My aim here is has been easy method on work pieces that would be othervice hard to index/center on milling machine that has no DRO.

More thesting and we will learn more.

Pekka

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #81 on: April 16, 2015, 03:51:30 PM »
I'm guessing that probably the linear shape of the beam is related to the element shape inside the diode.

If you look at a regular unlit LED you can see the shape of the pieces making (and blocking in some directions) the junction.

I imagine somethong similar happens in a laser diode.

Not important, but just sort of interesting.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline Arbalist

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #82 on: April 16, 2015, 04:10:01 PM »
I believe the key to achieving an easy to read device is not so much in the shape of the dot (within reason) but more in the size and intensity of it. Vibration and the speed of rotation will have some effect as well.

Offline Will_D

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #83 on: April 16, 2015, 05:03:42 PM »
Just got my 1 mW laser pointer/led torch from the bayand guess what?

The small print on the laser (i.e. warning label) says that its 5 mW. Its quite bright with 3 cells. Replaced one cell with a small 2 ba brass nut (I think its 2 ba) and smaller less bright spot!

ABout to knock up some fixtures
Engineer and Chemist to the NHC.ie
http://www.nationalhomebrewclub.ie/forum/

Offline Arbalist

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #84 on: April 16, 2015, 05:55:47 PM »
Is there a safe way of testing if the body is live without damaging the unit? I have a small test meter.
I can insulate the unit if I need to but I'd rather dispense with it if I can.

Offline spuddevans

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #85 on: April 16, 2015, 06:24:23 PM »
Is there a safe way of testing if the body is live without damaging the unit? I have a small test meter.
I can insulate the unit if I need to but I'd rather dispense with it if I can.

With your test meter set on DC volts (20V selection if not auto-ranging), connect black lead to your negative end of the battery, and connect the red lead to the laser body. If your meter reads the same volts as your battery then your body is "live"

The same can be achieved by using the Ohms test facility, but this time connect one test lead to the laser body and the other to the positive lead of the laser (doesn't really matter which lead is connected to which, but just make sure that the laser is not powered up). You may find that the laser body is connected to the Negative lead of the laser.


Tim

Tim
Measure with a micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with an axe  -  MI0TME

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #86 on: April 16, 2015, 11:59:52 PM »
If you make the fixture an aluminum sheet box section you'll get stiffness with reduced mass. Reducing the imbalance of spinning around on the arbor without a counterweight. Therefore less vibration and deflection, and again a thinner and more distinct line.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline Arbalist

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #87 on: April 17, 2015, 02:57:31 AM »
Thanks Tim. Not sure of construction details yet but something alloy no doubt.

 :update:

The ND4 filter arrived today so I continued the experiment.

Photo one shows the setup. I drilled a blind flat bottomed hole in some PVC rod for the module. The remaining 3mm thick material was drilled with the smallest drill bit I have, a .75mm.



I cut a small piece of the ND4 and turned a small disc to fit in the fixture. This is the result.



This is the effect with another piece of ND4 held under the laser.



Looks quite promising. I tried to lock the lens on the Laser module in place with some stud lock but so far it's not done the trick so it may need something like super glue. It would be nice if I could get a lower power Laser module with a nice round dot but as an inexpensive option this setup should work I think once it's mounted.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 10:58:26 AM by Arbalist »

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #88 on: April 17, 2015, 02:14:10 PM »
Is there a safe way of testing if the body is live without damaging the unit? I have a small test meter.
I can insulate the unit if I need to but I'd rather dispense with it if I can.

With your test meter set on DC volts (20V selection if not auto-ranging), connect black lead to your negative end of the battery, and connect the red lead to the laser body. If your meter reads the same volts as your battery then your body is "live"

The same can be achieved by using the Ohms test facility, but this time connect one test lead to the laser body and the other to the positive lead of the laser (doesn't really matter which lead is connected to which, but just make sure that the laser is not powered up). You may find that the laser body is connected to the Negative lead of the laser.


Tim

Tim

I  measured my laser module. Body was connected haed to positive (red) wire. On battery operated device this is of little consequence, just usefull to know.

Pekka

Almost OT:


https://astrophotovideo.wordpress.com/building-a-laser-collimator-for-newtonian-telescope/
http://www.withoutlenses.com/articles/how-to/drill-your-own-precision-pinhole-apertures


Some more reading and a little more experimentation to do.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 04:32:50 PM by PekkaNF »

Offline Arbalist

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #89 on: April 18, 2015, 06:07:59 AM »
I had another look at Pekka's original post and saw this:


Hi Folks:
For all of you building a laser center finder, here are some notes:
1. The laser has to be focussed to a very fine spot (under 0.1mm) so a regular laser pointer is useless. Focus it to a minimum spot about 150 mm away. Since the spot is oval, orient oval spot with long dimension tangential to the circle created to get a finer line. You can buy a laser module that can be focussed on Ebay for a few bucks, for example: 2pcs Focusable 3 5V 650nm 5mW Red Laser Dot Diode Module 12x35mm | eBay
2. The tilt of the beam has to be adjustable by tilting the module or a small mirror. A fixed angle is a poor choice. I posted a link to a fully detailed design on the YouTube video where I show the device.
3. Note that the posted design slips over the chuck or toolholder, so you don't have to remove tool to check centering.
4. Make sure design is balanced so you can use it at high speed. Design and test it to withstand much higher speeds as the highest used.
5. You can easily get 25um (0.001") and even better by using some simple tricks. For example, to center a hole on a bar or shaft place piece of paper under shaft and adjust height or beam angle till you just see two tiny spots of light on paper, each one on one side of shaft (e.g. shaft blocking almost the whole circle). This will give you accuracies down to a few microns in a dim room.
6. For all of those who felt sorry for me because of my choice in a milling machine:
The machine shown (Jet) is what I use as a drill press. I have a Makino KE55 CNC mill , Moore jig borer and other fancy machines. This video is part of a course to teach students so I chose machines they will be familiar with. I don't show any of the fancy machines (like a 1um accuracy aerostatic lathe/grinder) in these videos.
Cheers,
Dan Gelbart


Several things come to mind after reading this and looking at the video again.

Dan provides a link to a Laser module that looks exactly the same as the one Pekka and I have bought.
He says the Laser needs to be focussed to a spot smaller than .1mm which is I think highly unlikely with the module I have.
It seems like the spot in the video is nowhere near as small as .1mm either.
He notes the ovality of the spot but just suggests "orient oval spot with long dimension tangential to the circle created to get a finer line".
There was also a link to Dan's design but the drawing is no longer avalable.

Interesting ...

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #90 on: April 18, 2015, 06:47:14 AM »
Interesting indeed.

If you look the device on DG:s video you notice how flat it is and it looks like the laser module flat inside and mirrot is used to skew the angle.

I found the patent on that finder....link somewhere and it looks a little different. Interestin g reading though.

Another titbit is the published drawin/writeup that is constructed nicely, looks like for a public domain design or small scale fabrication. You need a google account to download it. Laser module is on this design mounted on a sheet metal cradle that can be pivoted a little. This is hight in height, battery and laser are upward. I think that the laser linked by DG himself relates to this design.

I notices the same than you: Laser beam is almost a line as non collimated laser is, but this has "over colliamation" only with the lense, no pinhole on my model, therefore the "line" or ovality is turned 90 decree after the focal point, no biggie needs just more optics, which I have a coarse feel, but not really that good indepth knowledge. But monkey-see-monkey-do is probably here enough.

I like your pictures, it clearly shows a very nice small dot on the center and then big blob of difraction. Try matte black object and observe how amazingly smaller the dot comes. The difraction/interference is very easy to notice with eyes, but harder to capture on camera.

Now the interesting part: The "dot" has it worst on shiny flat surface. Very sharp edge is ok, but ragged edge perpenticular to beam is bad. Piece that has a side, close to beam shows fairly good resolution - just when most of the beam is blocked by the face of the object and a smal portion of the beam is cast to side.

One factor is a work piece, this laser method is very particular about the part surface, edge and angles, but for some parts this looks very good solution. This is something I want to verify before building the all of it.

Regarding the laser, the quality of it might or might not have major impact on accuracy:
* Shop light and more rpm might be eneough to reduce glare
* DG maintains that ultra small and precise dot is not required and pretty sure he is right on this one
* there are some fun details to find out
* laser he bought might be different, we are just buying here on very vague description


I'm very interested on filter you used on your experiment, it really seems to reduce glare and perceived dot size. Can you give some more information about that filter material?

Somehing like that looks nice,  but the price....Variable Reflective Neutral Density Filters:
http://www.optosigma.com/products/optical-components/filters-apertures/variable-reflective-neutral-density-filters

I have some other things to finish today, but might have time to do few more experiments on tonight or very late tomorow.

Are you going to use the unit as it is or are you going to use some laser dot conditioning?

Do you have opinion about the slant angle? I found out that my mill has limited vertical space/travel, I probably need aproximately 10/20 degree two laser modules or adjustable angle. DG makes several remarks about the need for adjustable angle, even on latest design he suggests tilting the whole unit. It must be more than only for convenience.

When I powered up this module first time, my intial reaction was that no way this can be used as described, but after trying it out for real objects (pipes, bosses, bearings), some of my faith was restored.

Pekka

Offline Arbalist

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #91 on: April 18, 2015, 07:08:34 AM »
I bought this Filter Pekka.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271427704703?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I cut some small squares out of it on my Bandsaw and then turned a 12mm dia disc on the lathe using double sided tape.
If you PM me your address I can send you a couple of small squares if you like.

I'm quite happy with beam shape and intensity at present. I just need to work out the mounting details.

One design I saw allowed the angle to be varied by a large amount so I may try this approach as well.

Offline Arbalist

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #92 on: April 18, 2015, 07:40:14 AM »
I think I'd like to make the body from plastic as I'd be able to cut a battery pocket directly in the mount. I'm hoping to run the unit on a couple of SR/LR44 batteries as they are compact and I keep these for calipers etc.

Something like black Delrin would be good but I don't have any in stock. I have plenty of suitable bits of alloy but I'd have to add insulation for batteries etc. I'm going to give it some more thought before proceeding so I don't waste shop time or materials. Not absolutely essential but I've ordered a sub miniature toggle switch in case it seems a useful addition.

I'm actually fairly confident I could also make a stationary Laser.

Some images from around the net that may be of interest.









Commercial Laser edge finder in custom mount:



And a link.

http://mikesworkshop.weebly.com/laser-centring-device-mk-2.html
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 10:48:26 AM by Arbalist »

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #93 on: April 18, 2015, 11:13:29 AM »
This laser slurps 20mA @3V, LR44 is a bit marginal, DG says "CR2 lithium 3V camera battery" and it last about 40 hrs on his model. I got 2*AA battery holder, but I'm thinkking of cramming 2*LR1. They look like AAA, but 2/3 of the length.

I'm thinkking of using a aluminium as a body, I want it rigid. I don't expect too much trouble with batteries, just want to make sure no shorts are made.

I need to scarf up some reindeer and potatos. Hope I don't stuff my face, or I'll call it a day on garage time.

Pekka

* 'Burp'
too full
I checked linear polarizing filter at far field and it does work. Hmmm. Hmm. Needs a tad more testing. Anyone knows reliable source for OD or ID 10 mm polarizng filter? Or material?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 11:54:50 AM by PekkaNF »

Offline appletree

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #94 on: April 18, 2015, 12:45:39 PM »
This laser slurps 20mA @3V, LR44 is a bit marginal, DG says "CR2 lithium 3V camera battery" and it last about 40 hrs on his model. I got 2*AA battery holder, but I'm thinkking of cramming 2*LR1. They look like AAA, but 2/3 of the length.

I'm thinkking of using a aluminium as a body, I want it rigid. I don't expect too much trouble with batteries, just want to make sure no shorts are made.

I need to scarf up some reindeer and potatos. Hope I don't stuff my face, or I'll call it a day on garage time.

Pekka

* 'Burp'
too full
I checked linear polarizing filter at far field and it does work. Hmmm. Hmm. Needs a tad more testing. Anyone knows reliable source for OD or ID 10 mm polarizng filter? Or material?

I ordered some the other day and mentioned it in my earlier post.  Put Iphone 4s Polarizing Polarizer Film LCD Digitizer in ebay     £2.99 delivered item no 121618388586
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 01:54:56 PM by appletree »

Offline Arbalist

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #95 on: April 18, 2015, 02:19:24 PM »
This laser slurps 20mA @3V, LR44 is a bit marginal, DG says "CR2 lithium 3V camera battery" and it last about 40 hrs on his model. I got 2*AA battery holder, but I'm thinkking of cramming 2*LR1. They look like AAA, but 2/3 of the length.

Pekka

Ah, ok. Thanks for that. I saw the CR2 in the supermarket yesterday and thought they looked a good size if I needed more capacity.

Offline RodW

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #96 on: April 19, 2015, 04:16:15 AM »
Interesting thread, I just received 2x 5 mw focusable lasers for this project. I had half an hour spare so the first one went into a torch body that has 3xAAA batteries in it.



I stripped the LEDs off the circuit board and made up a Flanged adapter to replace the torch lens turned up out of a bit of Delrin. Before I got this far, I had a play with some resistors and 3.3 V and 5 V power supplies. If you end up with one of these and it is too bright, a resistor will dim it down quite easilly. The unit weighs 13.4 grams so I will choose a battery that is similar in weight. Either CR2 or CR123. I had a quick play with a ND photographic filter. You can get plastic Cokin compatible photogrpphotographic filters off eBay for a few dollars. I may cut a filter out of what I have If it is too bright.
RodW
Brisbane, Australia

Offline appletree

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #97 on: April 19, 2015, 04:47:19 AM »
Hi does anybody have a link to Dan Gelbarts centre finder design details that works please.

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #98 on: April 19, 2015, 10:06:43 AM »
Hi does anybody have a link to Dan Gelbarts centre finder design details that works please.

Hi,

My opening post, second link and a little down the page:

Found the link: https://drive.google.com/?tab=wo&aut...nU3V0E

Just above it is Dan's pointers, well worth of reading it. He recommends one type of laser module and I bought mine from that link. This laser seems to have a real regulator and it can't be dimmed same way than LEDs (decreasing the voltage).

Most people have taken the easy way and mount the laser on arbor. There seems to be few slip on designs.

Thanks for the polarizing sheet link, I never would have found it with those search words. What kind of material it is to hanadle? Post would be here way over the initial price.

Pekka

Offline appletree

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Re: Anybody build Dan Gelbart angled laser centre finder?
« Reply #99 on: April 19, 2015, 10:32:52 AM »
Thanks for the Link I will have a look in a minute, The polarising film is just that looks very much like a standard phone screen protector, it came in an envelope on its own not even between 2 bits of cardboard but is no worse for it.
Have yet to try it but will do when I get a minute, to be truthful i'm not very keen on the eye risks with lasers and I am awaiting the arrival of some blue glasses, I assume the offer a degree of protection and enhancement