Author Topic: to bid or not to bid??  (Read 7979 times)

Offline bertie_bassett

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to bid or not to bid??
« on: February 26, 2015, 04:56:35 PM »
hi guys need some help deciding on whether I should bid on an old horizontal mill or not

iv been looking for a mill for a couple of yers and ideally I want something with both horizontal and vertical capacity, in good condition, nice and cheap, oh and right on my doorstep would be great



spotted this milling machine on evilbay the earlier, and though it isnt quite what I was after Its is close and within a fairly reasonable driving distance (2-3 hours away)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201292158510?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


pro's

looking at it, it is a very sturdy machine and seems in fair condition
already running on 240v
bit bigger then I was planning ( not sure if that's a plus or not)
no bids so price is tempting
has a selection of cutters with it


cons

no vertical head.
have to rent/hire/borrow something to get it home in, plus find some 'volunteers' to help
cant view/test before bidding
over arm is the round type, id prefer trapezoidal ways e.g. centec style


my biggest concerns are the transport and whether id be wasting my money on it. I don't mind buying a fixer upper ( if the price is right) and would enjoy repairing/modifying bits. but Iv not got spare cash to be throwing about and don't want to buy a lemon.


so what are your thoughts??

a competent engineer uses the tools and knowledge available, to get a challenging job done.

 An incompetent "engineer" tells his boss that the existing equipment "can't do the job" and to get another machine

Offline naffsharpe (Nathan)

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Re: to bid or not to bid??
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2015, 06:04:31 PM »
Just my opinion but if it's not what you really want, why waste your cash? Wait until you can afford to have a choice, even if it's only between machines that need work doing on them. There's nothing as frustrating as having to figure out work rounds because you do not have the machine you should have waited for. Been there, read the book, saw the movie then bought the tee shirt and hat and then realised I I'd been a prat in the first place by not buying what I NEEDED.

Nathan.

Offline bertie_bassett

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Re: to bid or not to bid??
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2015, 02:30:25 AM »
The thing is, I do t really 'need'  a mill. Its more of a want. I have got quite a few project id like to do. But its mostly just hobby use.
The bugest problem iv got is that there is never anything available locally, everything I ever see that looks about right is on the other aide of the country.
Perhaps I'm just getting a bit desperate. Should probably focus on my other jobs first
a competent engineer uses the tools and knowledge available, to get a challenging job done.

 An incompetent "engineer" tells his boss that the existing equipment "can't do the job" and to get another machine

Offline PekkaNF

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Re: to bid or not to bid??
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2015, 05:57:26 AM »
Well if I had loads of space I would get that mill, specially if it comes with that price.

But horizontal mill is not the first or only mill. IMHO. Setting up the work and mill takes some time getting used to.

I think that normal vertical mill/drill (preferably bridgeport style) is very universal for all sorts of small work. Drilling is nice with a quill  but pretty hard with knee only.

Horizontal mill is nice for hogging a lot of metal from the slab. Not too economical on more complex forms, because mills are bigger and more expensive (alhough I had a chance of buing one pallet load of slab mills once with 300 euro. Had to pass it because I did not have a TCG.). One guy has a horizonal mill only to do keyways on the shaft and to occassional gear wheel. It spends most of the time idle but if it has right tools on it to finish the work takes only a moment.

Transportation and unloading is allways a big question. You have to be very carefull with mills they are topheavy, asymetrical load, and  if they tip over somebody it is most likely very serious.

Pekka

Offline bertie_bassett

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Re: to bid or not to bid??
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2015, 09:06:35 AM »
Space is one thing om not too short of, although the workshop needs clearing and reorganising the only machine in it is the lathe so plenty of room for a mill. Could probably get a BP in there if I wanted, but that really would be wasted on me.

One of my primary reasons for wanting a mill is the need to cut gears id like to get a full set for my lathe and to be able to make some for others. So a horizontal would be perfect for that. But then id really want a vertical head too so would have to fabricate something up. ( another project lol)

Looks like transport costs would be around£200 plus id need to get a vice and clamps etc so maby this one isn't as good as it first seems.

a competent engineer uses the tools and knowledge available, to get a challenging job done.

 An incompetent "engineer" tells his boss that the existing equipment "can't do the job" and to get another machine

Offline vtsteam

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Re: to bid or not to bid??
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2015, 09:24:38 AM »
I ahve an atlas horizontal mill (smaller than yours) and an Asian round column mill drill with an r8 spindle. I bought the horizontal first and used it for 6 months. The mill drill was an Ebay bargain @ $450, like new, located 2 hours drive away.

I have never used the horizontal since.

Not saying you can't be happy with a horizontal mill, particularly with a bigger more solid one, but.........

well first of all, though I have many good Hz cutters and spacers, and the overarm works well, bearings good, Imainly used the thing with collets, end mills and an angle plate to hold work on, no overarm. That works okay for small stuf, but last summer I resurfaced the head of my Ford tractor on the vert mill drill. If the horizontal was big enough, I could have done the same with H mills on the horizontal, assuming I had enough Z travel to the table to fit a big cutter on the arbor plus the height of the head, but, if not hard to imagine doing it on an angle plate.

H cutters are expensive compared to end mills, and carbide if you need it is going to be rare or pricey by comparison.

Questions to ask is what is the taper in the spindle, Z travel, does it have a good selection of spacers, what kinds of speeds are available......

Up to you on everything of course!

But if I had to give up one mill it would be the H, not the mill/drill..


ps. if space wasn't aan option, and I planned future purchases, AND I was attracted to older machinery, I'd chose a vert mill and a shaper over a vert mill and a H mill. The shaper is truly a different piece of equipment and can do different things well, while a H mill is kind of the same as a V mill with some limitations. I would also say, the larger the H mill the better, and more useful (though more costly to equip). I think size matters particularly there, more than even the others.

Oh yes one more thing -- if you anticipated doing a lot of slotting, particularly multiple slots in a production piece, that might favor the H mill.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline hermetic

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Re: to bid or not to bid??
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2015, 10:29:43 AM »
I assume you have looked at www.lathes.co.uk/pallas, if not..........do!
It is a good machine, the only drawback I cab see is that apparently it has a BESA taper, which means that getting tooling will be tough, unles you can turn the taper yourself. On the plus side, you can hog off more metal with a horizontal than a vertical, and I have  and use a harrison horizontal, but bought in the days before they went ballistic pricewise on ebay, and I freely admit that I have just bought (after much searching) a vertical head for it. Have a look at the above link, se what you can find out about BESA tapers, and make a decision based on the facts, you will be lucky to get a harrison H mill for under a grand, and vertical heads are like hens teeth. Remember, there are other auction sites on the net as well as ebay (ebid/gumtree/preloved etc) and you are saving a bit of British engineering history!!
Phil
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Offline hermetic

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Re: to bid or not to bid??
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2015, 10:42:05 AM »
Just seen the tooling, there is enough of it, and the taper looks like BT40 to me, though there is no way of judging scale! you are getting your moneys worth in tooling, I would go for it, because you can give it a good clean up and sort its problems, and then resell if it really turns out to be not for you. the thing is with all machine tools, you have to think of a way to machine the part that you want using the machines you have got, and there is usually a way!
phil
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: to bid or not to bid??
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2015, 11:02:36 AM »
Seems the Ebay ad contradicts the lathe site specs.  Ad says 12" vertical travel, the site says 7" vertical travel. Which is it? That makes a big difference, if I was considering a bid.  Also get the taper spec sorted.

I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline bertie_bassett

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Re: to bid or not to bid??
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2015, 11:21:06 AM »
First thing I did was to look on the lathes site to find out info etc hadn't noticed any differences in travels, but will double check once im home.

A quick bit of research on The taper the other day didn't come up with much, but from the looks of it the was a couple in with the tooling so think id be ok to start with.
If I were to build a very head for it id go with an ER collets so wouldn't have much of an issue, plus fairly sure id be able to turn up parts if required.

a competent engineer uses the tools and knowledge available, to get a challenging job done.

 An incompetent "engineer" tells his boss that the existing equipment "can't do the job" and to get another machine

Offline vtsteam

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Re: to bid or not to bid??
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2015, 11:35:05 AM »
One other factor:

desire.

If you really like the looks and idea of that machine, then that's the ultimate decision maker.

This is a hobby. Nothing we do is essential, it all has to do with our interest and curiosity, and inventiveness.  :beer:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline Arbalist

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Re: to bid or not to bid??
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2015, 12:19:26 PM »
Provided it's not damaged or badly worn then it will probably be a darn sight better than import stuff. If you can make some bits and it's in budget then being local is a bonus. I'd like to see you bring it up to spec if you decide to buy it! Good luck with whatever you decide to do!

Offline bertie_bassett

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Re: to bid or not to bid??
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2015, 01:13:40 PM »
well it not got long left and still no bids

think im going to pass though, iv spent most of the last 2 days arguing with myself over what to do and I don't think its the one for me. iv already got too many projects on the go none really need a mill, so im gonna save my cash and spend my time getting my lathe working properly befor making a few mods to it. that should keep me busy and get most of what I want to do done.

looks like a good buy to anyone else though, and if it was just round the corner id have probably gone and got it already

a competent engineer uses the tools and knowledge available, to get a challenging job done.

 An incompetent "engineer" tells his boss that the existing equipment "can't do the job" and to get another machine

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: to bid or not to bid??
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2015, 02:50:57 PM »
I used to casually browse ebay every now and then but I stopped doing it because seeing HOT DEALS made me panic (i'm not quite ready to buy a better lathe yet. I need to free up space if nothing else). I guess the thing to do is remember that these things come and go, but it's difficult in the heat of the moment.

Offline hermetic

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Re: to bid or not to bid??
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2015, 03:50:29 PM »
Well it sold for the Maiden bid of £300, doesnt sound like a lot, but it's your call, and we all know that the biggest hassle with these machines is moving them!
Phil
Man who says it cannot be done should not disturb man doing it! https://www.youtube.com/user/philhermetic/videos?

Offline bertie_bassett

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Re: to bid or not to bid??
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2015, 03:46:41 AM »
Well someone got a good deal it seems. Just hope it went to a local who will use it, rather then someone who will slap paint on it and sell it on.

Something else more suitable for me will turn up eventually, untill then I'm going to get my lathe running properly and get on with other projects.

Have to keep my eye out but not get too caught up In it I think
a competent engineer uses the tools and knowledge available, to get a challenging job done.

 An incompetent "engineer" tells his boss that the existing equipment "can't do the job" and to get another machine