Author Topic: Water meter.  (Read 7588 times)

Offline DavidA

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1219
  • Country: gb
Water meter.
« on: June 07, 2014, 01:59:53 PM »
My wife is thinking about changing out water payment system to a water meter.

Does anyone here (in UK, particularly Yorkshire) have a water meter,  and what is the cost compared with the normal yearly payments.

I.e.  How much per cubic metre and what standing charges are incurred ?

Chers,

Dave.

Offline Bluechip

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1513
  • Country: england
  • Derbyshire UK
Re: Water meter.
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2014, 02:42:44 PM »
If you are with Yorkshire Water they should be able to tell you from their site:

http://www.yorkshirewater.com/your-water-services/water-meters.aspx

I presume it's like mine whereby it's calculated on the Rateable Value ??
I got one last year, and it's now saving me about £600 PA.
I live alone in a Band 'E' property and with STWA it worked out at about £720PA - ish.
Dunno what it is now, more than that ... 
There are other factors like is your Foul Sewer and Storm Water drained separately ??
Mine is combined so I pay a fortune to have all drainage treated as Foul ...

Well worth it for me ... should have done it yonks ago.   :doh:


Also my meter is read remotely so no-one has to come in ..

Dave

I have a few modest talents. Knowing what I'm doing isn't one of them.

Offline BaronJ

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 243
  • Country: gb
  • Grumpy Old Git !
Re: Water meter.
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2014, 02:48:15 PM »
Hi Dave,

Having a water meter put in has saved us around 80% of the previous years costs.  However I have noticed that they adjust the standing charges based on your property RV.  MIL lived round the corner and her charges were quite a bit less than mine for the same RV.  Having said that I'm much better off than the £850 per year I was paying.  This years bill based on last years usage is £153.00.

HTH.
 
Best Regards:
                     Baron

Offline awemawson

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8968
  • Country: gb
  • East Sussex, UK
Re: Water meter.
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2014, 02:55:54 PM »
We have two water feeds. One is metered and one is not.

The metered ones feeds our letting holiday cottages, which are deemed to be commercial hence no option but a meter. The last quarters bill for them was £17 which is modest, but then so is the usage as they are not always occupied.

The unmetered one feeds the farm house and (thankfully) the various stock troughs we have - actually the consumption is not very great but at the last count we do have 25 out side taps and five stock troughs. The large number of taps is for convenience rather than usage though.

Bear in mind in the figure quoted there is no sewerage charge as we have out own private system.
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline Bluechip

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1513
  • Country: england
  • Derbyshire UK
Re: Water meter.
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2014, 03:02:09 PM »
Dave

Better guess ... just looked at my STWA a/c and in 3 months I was charged £31, so that extrapolates to some £124 PA. So, assuming Baron does not live alone, and has usage about like mine it seems about right. Bearing in mind the less water used the Standing Charge will become a more significant part of the Bill.

Another Dave
I have a few modest talents. Knowing what I'm doing isn't one of them.

Offline Pete W.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 852
  • Country: gb
Re: Water meter.
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2014, 03:52:34 PM »
Hi there, all,

We have two accounts - one for metered supply of treated (i.e. drinking) water and the other for disposal of waste water.

The company disposing of the waste water build their bill on three separate categories:  the waste water that leaves the kitchen and bathroom, street drainage and rain water from the house roof gutters.

As the water in that third category actually goes into a soakaway in the back garden, I appealed the charge for that a few years ago and they rescinded it from that date on, i.e. the exemption is not back dateable!!  Don't you just love being a captive customer?!?!

The charge for the first category is based on the assumption that 9x% of the treated water supplied goes down the sewer.

I have to say that the timing of the bills is far from tidy - the waste water lot reckon the treated water lot are laggardly in passing them the meter readings. 
Best regards,

Pete W.

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, you haven't seen the latest design change-note!

Offline BaronJ

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 243
  • Country: gb
  • Grumpy Old Git !
Re: Water meter.
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2014, 05:45:10 PM »
I'm of the opinion that the charges made for water supply are an absolute rip off for those that don't have a water meter.  The basic premise is to force all users to have a meter.  You cannot buy a new house without it having a water meter fitted.  One property that I know of doesn't have a water meter and the water board, Yorkshire Water, will not fit one !  They currently pay £175 pa.  The excuse for not fitting a water meter is because the property is fed with lead pipe and the plumbing internally is also lead pipe.  Apparently they don't have anyone that is experienced with lead plumbing.
Best Regards:
                     Baron

Offline garym

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
  • Country: gb
  • Manchester, England
Re: Water meter.
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2014, 06:49:24 PM »
I've thought about having a meter fitted for quite a long while, but keep putting it off because we have lead pipe to the stop tap which is behind the kitchen cupboards and which I don't really want disturbing. They will fit in the pavement outside if I insist but will charge me £160 if they think it can be fitted inside. We can probably save that in a year though.

Can I ask anyone who has one fitted, how they are read remotely, are they connected to power and phone lines?

Gary
Workshop activity resumes now ankle improving :-)

Offline ieezitin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 662
Re: Water meter.
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2014, 07:20:30 PM »
I appreciate the conversation but having lead pipes being the conduit supplying your water supply is insane, people in the 18 hundreds died of lead poising and they started to phase it out then.

Anthony.
If you cant fix it, get another hobby.

Offline vtsteam

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6466
  • Country: us
  • Republic of Vermont
Re: Water meter.
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2014, 10:10:24 PM »
Interestingly PVC pipe is now illegal in potable water systems in this state, since it was found to increase lead levels even more than metal pipe systems. I remember helping a friend plumb his new house back in the early 70's with that modern miracle plastic pipe. Gosh you could just glue it together....what a boon!

Apparently the chloramine and a reaction with ammonia released in the PVC lines rapidly corrodes brass and copper faucets and other fittings releasing lead, zinc, and copper compounds at a higher rate than they appear in all metal piping.

Not saying lead pipe is good, but sometimes modern plastic solutions are, ahem.... a tad short sighted. It takes about thirty years for miracles turn into hazards.

We're lucky -- our water comes from a spring. Right out of a hole in the rock.   

I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline Bluechip

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1513
  • Country: england
  • Derbyshire UK
Re: Water meter.
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2014, 02:15:04 AM »
I've thought about having a meter fitted for quite a long while, but keep putting it off because we have lead pipe to the stop tap which is behind the kitchen cupboards and which I don't really want disturbing. They will fit in the pavement outside if I insist but will charge me £160 if they think it can be fitted inside. We can probably save that in a year though.

Can I ask anyone who has one fitted, how they are read remotely, are they connected to power and phone lines?

Gary

Gary:

AFAIK they are read by a van which has some RF chit-chat with the meter on the way past. The meter has no electrical connections to any thing at all. [ Apart from Electrical Earth Bonding ].

EDIT Just had a look at mine. It has 433MHz on it ... so it is RF.  :thumbup:

EDIT2  It runs on a Lithium Battery.
http://www.temetra.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/EverBlu_Cyble.pdf


T'others:

Lead pipe is probably OK in a hard water area. The pipe gets scaled up inside so no water is in effective contact with the lead. You do need to run off a fair bit before use if you've had standing water in the pipe while away etc. In a soft water area I believe the recommendation is that they should be replaced.

Dunno about PVC pipe. IIRC all the UK stuff is HDPE.

VT has the right idea. Get Moses in to wallop the local geology and Hey  Presto! Free clean water, no meter, no Bills.

Now that's gotta be a good scheme ...  :thumbup:

Dave BC

I have a few modest talents. Knowing what I'm doing isn't one of them.

Offline awemawson

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8968
  • Country: gb
  • East Sussex, UK
Re: Water meter.
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2014, 02:18:07 AM »
Lead is virtually insoluble in cold water. You need very unusual circumstances with other trace elements in the water for any lead salts to dissolve. Now hot water is another matter.
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline garym

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
  • Country: gb
  • Manchester, England
Re: Water meter.
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2014, 04:17:14 AM »
Bluechip, thanks for the reply. I thought it must be something like that. I could't see them getting an electrical supply to where the meter was in each house.

Re: Lead pipe

I'm aware of the risks. I campaigned in the eighties to have lead removed from petrol. When I first moved in twenty years ago I didn't want the upheaval or expense of replacing the pipe as it runs under the front garden and hall so I replaced the lead from the stop tap onwards. To reduce the risk further if it has stood in the pipe for a while (overnight say) we run the tap to clear it. After twenty years I'm only slightly MAD.  :loco:

Gary
Workshop activity resumes now ankle improving :-)

Offline BaronJ

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 243
  • Country: gb
  • Grumpy Old Git !
Re: Water meter.
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2014, 05:25:54 AM »
Bluechip, thanks for the reply. I thought it must be something like that. I could't see them getting an electrical supply to where the meter was in each house.

Re: Lead pipe

I'm aware of the risks. I campaigned in the eighties to have lead removed from petrol. When I first moved in twenty years ago I didn't want the upheaval or expense of replacing the pipe as it runs under the front garden and hall so I replaced the lead from the stop tap onwards. To reduce the risk further if it has stood in the pipe for a while (overnight say) we run the tap to clear it. After twenty years I'm only slightly MAD.  :loco:

Gary

Hi Gary,

If you have converted to copper after the internal stop tap, the water people will fit a meter in the copper.  One of the neighbours had one fitted after the lead work.  It sits in the copper pipe coming down through the ceiling and sticks out away from the wall.  It looks atrocious !  I would have refused to allow the meter to be placed there.  They told him that it had to be there so you couldn't connect anything before it or bypass it.

Mine is in the street.  I had to be able to turn the water supply off when the kitchen was refitted.  When I went out into the street to turn off the water at the stop tap, it was full of brick, stones and mud.  So I complained to Yorkshire Water and demanded that they do something about it.  They did !  They came out, dug up the pavement and put a new chamber in, complete with a new stop tap and meter.  All at no charge.  I did have to agree to having the meter, but at that point is was a no brainer anyway.

When I think about how much we have paid in water bills, I reckon that I've more than paid for the work they carried out...


   
Best Regards:
                     Baron

Offline vtsteam

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6466
  • Country: us
  • Republic of Vermont
Re: Water meter.
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2014, 08:31:38 AM »
It was pure luck that I found the spring when I first built the house. There was a wet spot in the ground about 300 feet into the woods surrounded by what looked like a semicircle of stones -- mostly buried. But they looked like they'd been placed.

So I brought a shovel, being a curious type, and dug around there, and found the remains of a wood panel door, which must have been used at one time as a cover. Digging further revealed the semicircle was a loose stone wall and it ended against ledge rock. A lot of muck came out and muddy water started to spread around and refill whatever I shoveled. Didn't smell to good to start with! Old leaaves and mud. But I kept on digging and cleared the whole thing out. It was maybe two feet deep, a cistern of sorts, and at the bottom, solid rock with a 2 inch hole out of which clear cold water flowed now that it was freed up. I realized that it was an old spring well. Why it was here in the forest I have no idea.

Anyway, I dug around the old loose fill wall, and built a larger cistern with mortared stone and brought it up above the ground level. I put a pipe into it about half way up, yet still underground, and led that off to the house.

I had to constantly evict frogs while I worked, because they seem to smell water and came from all directions to try out the new pool. They were very persistent! I'd move them 100 feet away, and see them hopping back through the leaves nearby in ten minutes.

Finally I affixed a cover, and that put an end to the public pool. I sent water samples up to the state testing lab in Burlington and the analysis showed that we have really good water. It also tastes good -- people note that when visiting.

I built a second masonry cistern under the house that holds 250 gallons. It gets the water via gravity feed from the spring. A shallow well pump at the house cistern pressurizes the lines in the house. Overflow from the second cistern is piped back downhill toward a nearby stream.

The spring water runs continuously except in a severe drought, as we had a few years ago. But then drilled wells dried up too in the area. The lines to the forest cistern run above ground, except that we cover it with leaves in the fall. Actually it is gradually getting buried as a result. It never freezes, no matter how cold the weather -- or hasn't in the last 12 years.

I once did live in Burlington, and had a house with a water meter. Glad to have lucked into this present water and freer life style!
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline Pete W.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 852
  • Country: gb
Re: Water meter.
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2014, 11:17:06 AM »
Hi there, Steve,

If you were in the UK, our Environment Agency would probably assert that your spring was under their control!

My late uncle used to run a smallholding.  He positioned a spun concrete pipe (about 4 feet diameter) in the middle of his field and dug out the interior so that the pipe sank into the ground.  When it was flush with ground level he put another on top and continued digging.  I can't remember how many sections he eventually used but he had a copiously delivering well to supply all the needs of his livestock and irrigation.  Then, one day, he had a visit from a couple of officials who required him to tell them how much water he extracted each day and told him he was going to have to pay for an extraction licence.  He was NOT amused!

I can see the 'official' point of view to a certain extent - if you take water from a well, you're tapping a resource that extends under other people's property.  If you take too much, their wells could run dry.

More recently, a friend uses spring water to supply his business premises.  He's had to install a UV flocculator and an activated charcoal filter to ensure that the water is potable.

Further to the discussion further up this thread about the costs of metered water, we are currently using a fairly steady 1 cubic metre per week, that's for two adults, one mature German Shepherd and two cats.

For garden watering, the main workshop has two water butts and the tin shed will also soon have one or two butts.  I have a further water butt and a rain water diverter kit which I plan to install on the house roof downpipe soon. 
« Last Edit: June 09, 2014, 04:58:48 AM by Pete W. »
Best regards,

Pete W.

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, you haven't seen the latest design change-note!

Offline awemawson

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8968
  • Country: gb
  • East Sussex, UK
Re: Water meter.
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2014, 11:29:27 AM »
They have relaxed the extraction controls in the UK now Pete. You can legally extract 20 cu M per day. I was tempted to use a bore hole for my Launderettes when I had them - they were each using between 3 and 6 cu M per day. But the costs of boring and treating made it marginally worth it.
Andrew Mawson
East Sussex

Offline DavidA

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1219
  • Country: gb
Re: Water meter.
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2014, 01:30:37 PM »
So generally the consensus seems to be in favor of meters.  I'll have to to see just what Yorkshire Water offer.

I do expect that I will be adding more water storage from the roofs to use for flushing toilets etc. Should be able to cobble up a system without too much head scratching.

Thanks for the advice.
Dave

Offline Arbalist

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 673
  • Country: gb

Offline Jo

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
  • Country: gb
Re: Water meter.
« Reply #19 on: June 09, 2014, 04:18:54 AM »
Dave,

I had a water meter imposed  on me two months ago, as so many I was not impressed  :palm:.


Two months later:  As a single person I am averaging out at 0.5 cubic metres of water a week, so that is about 60p a week plus the standing charge of £10.50 a year.. So annual bill will be around £42 instead of the old charge of £195   :ddb:


I can't see the water company being too impressed  :thumbup:

Jo
So many engines to build and yet so little time.

Offline DavidA

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1219
  • Country: gb
Re: Water meter.
« Reply #20 on: June 09, 2014, 01:50:38 PM »
Jo, Arbalist,

Thanks.  Those figures give me a rough and ready base to calculate from.

There are only two of us in our house (well,  most of the time) and the water for the garden comes from water butts.

It seems I should be in front at the indicated prices.

I just need a solar powered pump to raise the water from the butts to a header tank above the toilet boxes.

Dave.

Offline Arbalist

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 673
  • Country: gb
Re: Water meter.
« Reply #21 on: June 09, 2014, 02:39:16 PM »
We had a large garden at our old house so even though there was just the two of us we were happy not to have a meter. We also had "discussions" about the supposed benefits of water meters with some friends and they had to concede that if it reduced everyone's water bills the utilities would either go bust or have to increase charges considerably! House of two with a modest garden and you should be ok with a meter though.

Offline garym

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
  • Country: gb
  • Manchester, England
Re: Water meter.
« Reply #22 on: June 09, 2014, 05:23:40 PM »
......... We also had "discussions" about the supposed benefits of water meters with some friends and they had to concede that if it reduced everyone's water bills the utilities would either go bust or have to increase charges considerably!........

Good point Arbalist, but the way things stand at present everyone will have a water meter eventually as once one has been fitted anyone subsequently buying the property will have to use it. So if they have three kids and a garden sprinkler their bills will likely be higher than they would have been on rateable value. I'm all in favour by the way. Our next door neighbour will be paying the same water rates as me but he power washes their cars weekly and waters the lawn. I hand wash my car about three times a year with a bucket and water the plants from a water butt. Inertia seems to be my main excuse for not getting one already.

Gary
Workshop activity resumes now ankle improving :-)

Offline Arbalist

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 673
  • Country: gb
Re: Water meter.
« Reply #23 on: June 10, 2014, 01:09:35 PM »
I'm not sure but I think perhaps all new builds have to have a meter, or perhaps the utilities make it a condition of supply on new houses? It will indeed be fairer once all properties have them but until then I expect my best mate, with three kids, all of which have girl/boy friends that stay over will be a lot better off without one!  :thumbup: