How do I start welding?

[raynerd]

Hi guys, I'm not stupid enough to appreciate this is mammoth question and a skill in its own right of which I know there are even many dedicated forums- but with so much info out there it is easy to get lost in the mass of information!!!

I have never welded a thing and neither have I ever watched anyone close up welding. However, over the years it is always one of those things I've promised myself I'd try.

Can someone please point me in the direction as to suitable reasonibily priced setup to get me going. I presume mig is the way forward with gas rods?? What sort of unit for small parts to get me going with simple thin plate welding?

Is an old reliable machine the way to go or a cheap modern setup?

Any help appreciated
Chri

[Mike K]

MIG doesn't use rods.  It uses a spool of wire fed through a "gun".

Here are your options:

* stick welding
- inexpensive machine
- does not use shielding gas
- uses flux coated sticks
- produces slag that you have to break off the surface of the finished weld
- does produce spatter
- can weld thick material
- cannot weld thin material
- cannot weld aluminum (I think)

* flux core wire welding
- inexpensive machine
- does not use shielding gas
- uses a spool of flux cored wire
- produces slag that you have to break off the surface of the finished weld
- does produce spatter
- generally cannot weld as thick material as stick welding
- might not weld thin material, depends on the machine
- cannot weld aluminum (I think)

* MIG welding
- more expensive machine
- uses shielding gas (more $)
- uses a spool of wire
- produces cleaner welds than stick or flux core
- generally cannot weld as thick material as stick welding
- generally can weld thin material
- you can also use flux cored wire in the machine without the need for shielding gas
- can weld aluminum with a special spool gun

* TIG welding
- more expensive machine
- uses shielding gas (more $)
- uses filler material sticks
- produces superior welds, nice and clean
- some machines can be operated as a stick welder
- can weld aluminum

* torch welding
- simple setup
- uses oxygen and some other gas such as acetylene
- can weld lots of stuff

So the question is: What do you want to weld?  That determines the machine to get.  Are you only ever going to weld thin plate?

[AdeV]

1) Buy a small, cheap, mig welder. Forget gas wire/rods, just get ordinary wire & proper gas (there's a company in St Helens who do rental-free bottles - 1st one is expensive, refills are reasonable, and unlike BoC you don't pay through the nose every month). Don't bother with those silly little bottles from Machine Mart/B&Q - they only last 10 mins.

2) Check out www.mig-welding.co.uk - a goldmine of info.

3) Grab some bits of steel & start sticking 'em together. Your first dozen yards or so of weld will be atrocious, as you learn your machine, then it just gets easier & easier. The hard bit is welding thin steel with an over-powered machine (DAMHIKT). Well, that's the hard bit for me at the moment at any rate.

Don't forget to get some basic safety gear - a welding mask is 100% essential, get a self-darkening one, then you've got 1/2 chance of seeing where the torch is before you strike the arc. Welding gloves will stop painful burns, and to prevent a nasty "sun"burn, make sure all exposed skin is covered if you're going to weld for more than a few seconds or so.

Also, if you're going to be welding in that underground vault that is your workshop, get some decent ventilation in place (mig welding is smoky and gassy), and have a fire extinguisher on hand. Welding rust = spits & sparks = high chance of burning your house down.

Steel will warp and twist in ways you could never expect when welding. I welded two 10mm thick bits together at what started out as 90 degrees, the weld was only short but it warped the whole piece quite magnificently, and took several minutes of twatting with a very big hammer to get it even remotely straight again....


Oh, a note on welding gas: The thicker the steel you wish to weld, the more oxygen needs to be in the shield gas.  BoC do Argoshield Light, Medium & Heavy (IIRC) - most of what we as hobbyists do would only need Argoshield Light.

If you do go TIG welding, get an AC/DC machine (John Doubleboost seems to have found a decent machine - I got a hulking big 3-phase animal that works just fine for me), so you can do steel & aluminium. TIG and MIG techniques are quite different, even though the end result should be more or less the same.

[Dawai]

I have all the above, Only thing I saw you miss was oxy-acetylene welding. A "aircraft torch" or a "henrob dillion 2000" torch (looks like a pistol) Provides a broad range of welding types all in one tool, plus cutting with a torch.

It is all really the same process, you melt the base metal, make a puddle, add a filler metal, or just meld them all together. ONE tiny puddle at a time, that is what makes the ripples in a "caterpillar back looking weld" each puddle laid next to the previous one.

2006?? I bought a $2500 Miller Synchrowave 200 tig machine, it also stick welds. I being a "electrician and not a welder" didn't understand that since the new "lunchbox" sized tig welders had came out, the one I bought weighing 350lbs was obsolete before I ever loaded it onto the truck at the supplier. I bet they laughed at me for a week.

I bought the henrob gas torch after I plunked down the cash for the tig.. recently putting the cab corners on my 57 gmc.. I migged them on.. while beating the "shrinkage" bead back flat to use little bondo, I broke the brittle mig weld..  I went back, and I was having trouble seeing that day.. and gas welded it with the henrob.. it was flexible, planished flat and I used about two tablespoons of bondo on both sides.. if I had been better at hammer finishing I would not have used any.

http://www.cutlikeplasma.com/  the site.. I bought mine from, if Henrob Jim is still there, he is amazing to watch weld.. If I had 1/10th of his skill I'd be happy.
http://www.cutlikeplasma.com/video_library.htm  THE videos from welding cast iron to ??? cutting like a plasma.. It is actually a oxygen lance to cut with, it has a tiny flame like a bic lighter and a seperated oxy tube to "blow the crack out".
Using mine? I returned the large tanks and use a set of the tiny "tote around" MC sized tanks, they last about six to eight hours.

What is cool? the henrob takes about 4psi on the gases, some regulators will not regulate that low thou, I tried two sets before I found some that would not pulsate. It uses very little gas, a tiny flame that can weld sheet steel or thick steel with a tip change.

THE henrob is pricy.. near $400?? a smith or little aircraft torch is cheaper, but the flame control is close, but not the same. THE henrob is like a pistol, gets your hand close and that gets the shakes out of the tip somewhat.. only advantage I can see..

WITH A gas torch or tig, you can use a strip of the parent metal as a filler..

[Dawai]

What I left out? you want  your welding "rod" with electric arc welding about the same diameter as the thickness of your metal.
I keep a container of 3/32nds (not sure about MM) 7018's (low hydrogen and very hard to light) 6011, or 6013's are much easier to strike a arc with..

using a arc welder you can "bump strike" or "scratch strike" the arc to initiate it, once it lights, the proper distance to hold the rod from the work is 1/3rd the diameter of the rod, with a hot welder you can "melt the base metal and push the rod through".. if it sticks, it is too cold and turn the welder up a bit. As it consumes the rod, making lil half circles across your welding crack or seam continue to feed inward till the rod is gone.
THEN, drop it into a can, not on the floor where it will ruin your boots.

Mostly, even on a bad eye day I can stick weld by sound, sometimes making a perfect beautiful weld right next to the seam I wished to weld up.
It sounds like bacon frying when right. (I love bacon)

Learning how to puddle the metal helps with all different types of welding machines thou.. I take the gas & tig style weld puddling back to the arc welding I started learning about 40 years ago.

I've watched apprentice steam fitters weld.. I make no claims I can do as well.

[vtsteam]

I second the oxy acet welding for thin plate -- which was what you asked, if cash is tight.

You can cut with it as well, which is an important point.

You can also braze with it. for many things brazing is an underrated metal joining operation, in my opinion, especially since you mentioned thin stock, as well.

If you are satisfied with brazing, and don't need welding, an even cheaper alternative is oxy-propane -- same torch different tips and hose. It will cut fine, braze beautifully, and the gas is available everywhere. I have switched over (well still have an acety bottle that is full but unused since I went to propane). I do however have a stick welder for welding thicker material.

If you have money TIG would be the top level for thin materials, including stainless.

If I had to have only one thing, it would be the oxy propane rig. I could stick more things together ( like cast iron and stainless for instance) and cut most things with that, and do it cheaply.

[Fergus OMore]

I was once a Certified Welder OK, laugh

So with the appropriate flux I could stick the tail back on the donkey

Basically, what others have said is quite valid but it all depends on what you want to join and what space and what coins you possess. Probably the most versatile tool is still the old fashioned oxy/acetylene set but you can and will run into trouble with house insurance. That is where we 'manure' students started. You can join dissimilar materials fairly easily. You can also join very very thin sheet steels and it was the tool of choice for car body work. It isn't now because of modern steels which will crack- sometime in use

So you can go onto Mig/Mag welding but if want to go onto non ferrous joining, you will have to buy costly wire and costly gas. You can't go into a shop and buy a cheap gasless machine-- and get away with things.
Sorry, you can't.

Probably the most sophisticated tool is the TIG welder and a practised welder can happily  run a weld around two empty coke cans. They are good- and fairly bulky and quite expensive.

So you come to the cheap and perhaps nasty  end of the market and get an arc set. £30 or £40 from your local Aldi and a few mild steel rods for a coin or two. You get a mask which will save you needing a visit to the ENT ward- you hope.

With a bit of brain work you can make a nice(r) carbon arc welder with a couple of carbon rods held in a crude holder-- and braze. Without much in the way of coins I happily stuck a new rear skirt onto the back end of an original Mini Cooper- with a bit of fluxed brazing rod. Again, arc welders are quite capable of doing runs in quite thin car plate. I would add- but you need lots of practice before you stop blowing holes in things.
A help is a thing(Calm down, folks) which is vibrates I think that it is essentially a solenoid and avoids sticking a rod( ooops) and things go red hot( more ooops)

So that's a start. So I would visit your local library and get out the several videos from the Welding Institute.
They may have a different format now but they are excellent and go through the rudiments with common sense approach.

Finally, I hope that this helps

Norman

[awemawson]

Chris,

Join the Mig Welding Forum

http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/index.php

It in fact covers all methods of welding. Browse there for a few weeks and you will soon hopefully pick up the flavour of the various processes. There are also several good training resources on the site and they are a helpful bunch.

Andrew

[awemawson]

.... also I meant to say, I don't think any of the fuel gas processes are suitable for your troglodyte cellar workshop either on safety grounds for yourself when welding, or for your family storing inflammable gases under the house !

Andrew

[RussellT]

Just to add to Andrew's comment it's not only fuel gases you need to worry about.  Lots of home MIG users use CO2 as a shielding gas and CO2 is also dangerous in cellars.

I have a MIG you could try but I'm the other side of Manchester to you.

Russell

[Arbalist]

For home use MIG or TIG are probably the most practical. MIG units are cheap and quite easy to use. TIG units are more expensive and take a little longer to master but are more flexible. My advice is to buy nothing until you've gone on a short welding course to give it a try. My own personal choice would be TIG if I could justify the expense!

[S. Heslop]

Every year towards christmas time Aldi sells a cheap 'buzz box' style welder. Every year they tend not to sell many and so they eventually get reduced. I got one at £25 and i'm still using it.

I'm not sure how 'thin' thin is though. All I have for it are (I think) 3mm rods, but i've been able to weld 2mm sheet with those. I figure with thinner rods you might be able to get down to 1mm, or less if you employ something similar to this.

Of course it's not always going to be ideal but I feel it proves that you don't need a geet expensive setup to stick metal together, despite what people on some forums might claim.

You could also check ebay for an Oxford oil filled welder. Should sell for around £30 unless people are getting greedy. Rob Wilson had nothing but good things to say about them, but I couldn't find any for sale up north after months of watching. They're built like tanks and produce a stable arc. Even if you later own a gas, mig, or tig setup you'll probably still always find use for stick welding just because the running costs are cheap (no gas rental or consumables) and the rods can reach into tight spaces.

[drmico60]

A help is a thing(Calm down, folks) which is vibrates I think that it is essentially a solenoid and avoids sticking a rod( ooops) and things go red hot( more ooops)

Hi Norman,

Can you elaborate on the "thing that vibrates". What is it? Is it available commercially?

Mike


fixed quote. Don

[BenH]

It all depends on what you want to do with it really, I've had a MIG before and a Oxford arc set. But since getting a DC only TIG but sold the oxford as run rods on DC is so much easier than the AC of a oxford.

If it's thin stuff then TIG or oxy setup really is the best, but bear in mind all TIG set's will run arc rods so you can weld thicker stuff as well. You can braze with the TIG as well, but I have a oxy propane set up for that and got rid of the acetylene instead due to the cost.

In my experience cheap MIG welders are just not worth the hassle, I had a brand new SIP and after a few months it went in the bin as it was rubbish.  All of my automotive welding is now done with the TIG, even though it's harder to master it's so much more fun.

As much as a AC/DC TIG would be nice you can do so much with a DC only, that unless you need to weld Ali it's maybe not worth the extra cost. A used DC TIG would be my choice then after you have the hang of it you can always sell it on and upgrade to a AC/DC one. The main thing with a tig is to get one at least 160A with HF start and gas valve ect built in, the cheaper bottom end inverter types tend to be scratch start and a valve on the torch. I've had one before and does make it much harder to use!

Just be careful of really cheap new inverters (for tig) and buzz box type things as they can make you hate welding being so much harder to use, better off giving yourself every chance of success with something reasonable. 

[philf]

A help is a thing(Calm down, folks) which is vibrates I think that it is essentially a solenoid and avoids sticking a rod( ooops) and things go red hot( more ooops)

Hi Norman,

Can you elaborate on the "thing that vibrates". What is it? Is it available commercially?

Mike


fixed quote. Don

Fergus may have been referring to an XP Welder which used to be advertised in newspapers 30 or 40 years ago. They advertised it as being suitable for use from a car battery!

I built my trailer with one but used a big transformer I got out of a piece of scrap equipment.

I don't know where mine went (someone probably borrowed it 30 or so years ago!). Basically there was a beefy solenoid with only a few windings of heavy gauge and the welding current passed through these windings.

When the electrode touched the workpiece it completed a circuit and the solenoid pulled the electrode away from the workpiece causing an arc to form. As the current reduced the electrode would move nearer the workpiece and the whole process would repeat. I can't remember if you could adjust the stroke or spring pressure.

I've just found one on eBay: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Car-Body-Stich-Welder-Arc-welders-made-uk-/121200786932?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1c38213df4#ht_1041wt_932

This is now branded KelArc. The same seller does the brazing attachments for arc welders. I have a home made one which I last used 30 odd years ago to patch up the floor in my Mk3 Cortina before selling it. (I think for £30!)

If this isn't what Fergus meant I don't know what he was referring to.

Cheers.

Phil.

[vtsteam]

Well if a person is worried about gas welding in a house, better save up for a plasma cutter, as well.  Because you will want to avoid gas for cutting, too.

And if explosions and fires are a focus, please be sure not to allow anything containing gasoline in even an attached garage if a person reading this has one. A lawnmower for instance -- a cup of gasoline vaporized is reputed to have the explosive power of 8 sticks of dynamite, at least that's the usual disclaimer in boating circles. At least propane is lighter than air and doesn accumulate vapors in low areas like liquid fuels do.

Also spray paint cans, cans of lacquer thinner, denatured alcohol, starting fluid, etc. No propane or mapp gas torch, and look out for homemade steam engine burners, using flammable fluids, etc. Don't allow those in the enclosed structure of a house if we want to be consistent.

Then there are the detrimental gasses produced by welding, fluxes, molten metal and alloy vapors, persisting inside a modern low loss insulated house. Proper non-spark ventilation is a MUST in any case. Even wood working sawdust running through a static inducing collection system can be a concern.

Each person must make realistic and practical choices for their own situation re. safety, and many things we do are inconsistent when looked at logically. But there are often simple solutions to special needs. For instance, with oxy propane -- can the bottles be sited outdoors, or in a shed, or if small, in a small purpose built ventilated enclosure outdoors? As propane is sited externally in a vented enclosure,on a boat, or motor home (caravan). Propane for cooking is commonly sited external to a house.

I always weld and cut outdoors. Always, even though I have a shop separate from my house. Even in mid winter in Vermont. Cutting and welding or brazing are infrequent operations for hobbyists -- we aren't going into welding as a business. It's not a big inconvenience to step outside for a few minutes work., and I don't want to breathe or spread fumes in my shop, or drip molten metal on the floor.

Anyway. I believe with a common sense approach many things are do-able depending on your sense of risk and sensible means of risk reduction.

[Fergus OMore]

Phil is quite right. The eBay item is almost identical to mine( wherever it went)

Basically, it was a pistol grip with a solenoid similar to that on a door bell chime and with a holder and griub screw for - I think- a 16 or 22 gauge coated rod.

The principle is fairly obvious but it avoids the beginner's problem of learning to strike an arc like a match.

Having struck the arc with the gubbins described, you then circuited it direct through the battery/welding set and onto the job in hand.

Obviously the amount of fumes is minimal. We, the City and Guilds Class of Dodos used fume cupboards to extract fumes from welding( and Woodbines)
'Woodbines' are - for our cousins-------fags.
Splutter, splutter

Norm

[mattinker]

'Woodbines' are - for our cousins-------fags.
Splutter, splutter

Norm

Norm, fags in the US aren't cigarettes, sort of equivalent to queers!

Regards, Matthew

[Arbalist]

My brother gave me one his woodbines to try about 40 years ago, made me so dizzy I had to have a lie down Norman!

[NeoTech]

I personally started welding few years back still learning.. I started with a cheap MAG welder (not a MIG, cause they can weld aluminium) and 5kg rental free bottle.. I watched welderseries amongst other on youtube and started to figure stuff out.. Then i got myself a stick welder with scrape start tig, and welded with 1kg bottles smallar stuff. In the end i got myself a AC/DC 200A tig welder.. I weld everything with that.. BUT.. if i hadnt start with the mag, wire welder.. i would prob. never learned what to look for when doing tig welding.

[raynerd]

Thank you very much for all your replies.

It is interesting to yet again read all the different advice and it is still tricky to know what route to go down! I'm just out visiting family so will need to revisit this thread and digest it properly tomorrow.

Just to clarify a few issues:

 I wouldn't dream of welding in my cellar or storing gas in there. I intend this kit to be kept in my grandparents outdoor shed to use as and when needed.

I think maybe my mentioning of "thin plate" was misleading in my original message I'm talking 3-10mm plate and bar. Basically, making racking frames, welding box section...that sort of thing.

The truth is, I want to make a weathervane and want to weld it!! I could use copper and solder or even aluminium and rivet it.... But I've always wanted to learn to weld so may as well give it a go now.

I'll keep reading and do more searching. Does anyone know what sort of price I'd be looking at to get the gases and first bottles (I.e first setup) for mig ?

[BenH]

I use Adams Gas rent free trade sized ones, but depends on where you are as to what supplier you can get. http://www.adamsgas.co.uk/index.php/hobby-gas-welding.

[DavidA]

AdeV,

... the more oxygen needs to be in the shield gas.,,

I never knew that.  I always assumed that the idea of shield gas was to keep out oxygen.

And I've been welding for fifty or more years.  Just shows how one can bumble along.

Dave

[mattinker]

AdeV,

... the more oxygen needs to be in the shield gas.,,

I never knew that.  I always assumed that the idea of shield gas was to keep out oxygen.

And I've been welding for fifty or more years.  Just shows how one can bumble along.

Dave

Well spotted, somebody got it the wrong way round! Free oxygen (not attached like the O in CO2) it to be kept out by the shield.

Regards, Matthew

[Fergus OMore]

What no one has mentioned is that the flux in both oxy and mig/mag is carbon dioxide.

The argon is basically for smoothing the weld- or the world could weld on 'pub gas' bottles. Dead cheap but if you are only welding garden gates and the like, why not?

Let me turn to thin body shell metal. Of course the heat from a mig/mag machine can blow holes in it- in ten seconds flat on the torch. We got whole Nissan Primeras that had failed the Nissan inspection -to play. the caveat was that we had to return them so that the VAT could be reclaimed at the factory. Nevertheless, the tutors would get an air saw and hack a wavy line in a wing or wherever and we had not only to stick it back but prepare it for the paint shop. So this was high strength low alloy niobium steel- which you can gas weld but only if you want it to crack- sometime, whenever but it would! OK, I made up little clamps to pull up the waving metal and gapped it and then skip welded it using half inch runs missing a half inch weld another little run etc etc. Then I would fill in the gaps and let it cool and go in with a flexible body file.

That was the easy bit. Aligning a car and going through the zinc coating by stitching with a mig and getting the zinc to flow back evenly was fun. But I digress!

Cheers

Norman