Author Topic: buying a milling machine  (Read 40450 times)

Offline Bigbadbugga

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buying a milling machine
« on: July 24, 2013, 12:26:03 PM »
right, im startin to save my pennies for a mill.

im not after anything big like a bridgeport,just something fairly compact.

as for what ill be using it for i have no special plans, but id like to try some of the projects currently being shown on here. collet chuck, dividing head etc...

I've spotted this one on the chester site, would like to hear some opinions on it as a beginners mill. i could possibly strech to the slightly bigger version if you guys think its worth te extra. :mmr:

http://www.chestermachinetools.com/champion-16v-mill-3991-p.asp

this is the bigger one....

http://www.chestermachinetools.com/champion-20v-mill-3992-p.asp
Tools: Boxford CSB lathe, Chester 20v mill, Portamig 185. Lots of ideas, No motivation.

Offline Deko

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Re: buying a milling machine
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2013, 12:46:22 PM »
I have had a Chester champion 20v for about 2 years now and had no problems so far. Nice bit of tackle,

and if you can, go for the 20v rather than the 16v so you can cope with bigger jobs. The thing to remember

when buying a mill is the cost of all the bits you will need to be able to use it. Vice, cutters, clamps, Etc..

I have sent you a PM.

Cheers Dek. :med:

Offline mosey

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Re: buying a milling machine
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2013, 01:06:19 PM »
Don't know much about those mills, but I do think that MT collets on a mill are a significant pain in the posterior. Try to find something with R8, or better still ER type collets.
Mosey

Offline Bigbadbugga

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Re: buying a milling machine
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2013, 01:21:31 PM »
Don't know much about those mills, but I do think that MT collets on a mill are a significant pain in the posterior. Try to find something with R8, or better still ER type collets.
Mosey

can someone explain the difference between these three?

I assumed it was just different taper angles and lengths,  :coffee:
Tools: Boxford CSB lathe, Chester 20v mill, Portamig 185. Lots of ideas, No motivation.

Offline Deko

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Re: buying a milling machine
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2013, 01:37:17 PM »
Both the mills you mentioned have a 2 MT taper, it is mostly larger mills that have R8.  With the 2MT spindle you can use MT collets, or like myself, fit an ER collet chuck. The pro's & con's of the various types
is always a hot topic, and you will find everyone has their own ideas on the subject. Have a look at this site to see the various types.  www.arceurotrade.co.uk .

Cheers Dek.

Offline ParCan

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Re: buying a milling machine
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2013, 01:43:19 PM »
Have a look at the Offerings from Amadeal as well.
I have had great service from them.

http://www.amadeal.co.uk/

For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert....

Offline Bigbadbugga

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Re: buying a milling machine
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2013, 01:45:08 PM »
Tools: Boxford CSB lathe, Chester 20v mill, Portamig 185. Lots of ideas, No motivation.

Offline ParCan

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Re: buying a milling machine
« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2013, 01:52:14 PM »
I have the same ER25 Chuck and collett set + a load of extra colletts.

It's a great buy, but again shop around.
For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert....

Offline Bigbadbugga

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Re: buying a milling machine
« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2013, 02:25:51 PM »
yeh, i always shop around.

the set i linked was just for an example.

Thanks guys, anything else i should be looking for in a mill? Can the chester mill be fitted with a dro later on if i need it?
Tools: Boxford CSB lathe, Chester 20v mill, Portamig 185. Lots of ideas, No motivation.

Offline ParCan

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Re: buying a milling machine
« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2013, 02:36:43 PM »
Get a Clamping Kit. They don't cost much. You can make all the clamps but I decided the time outweighed the cost.
Try and get a Vice. The Cheap ones are cheap for a reason. You may have to do some work to get it to work well.
Get an Angle Plate.
Make some round Posts. 1" dia steel 2-3" long. Faced square, skimmed and drilled to suite your clamp bars. 
If you can, 321 blocks are invaluable.

Do you have a Lathe? If you have MT Lathe tooling it can often be used on the Mill as well if the MT is the same.

I have to agree that the MT2 Taper mills do restrict you in Tooling.
I however don't regret buying my AMA16. It does everything I need.
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Offline NickG

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Re: buying a milling machine
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2013, 03:22:22 PM »
I got the XJ 20 from Amadeal a few years back when it was £600. its pretty sturdy, Rigid construction and the slides
move fairly smoothly. motor is pretty powerful and convenient variable speed but the gears are noisy. I still believe the quality of all these Chinese machines is utter rubbish (look at Rob Wilson's thread on the supposedly more superior 626) However, they can do a job, you get what you pay for and people turn some nice models out on them. With hindsight though I would have gone for a nice older machine - at the same time I also changed my lathe and got a Harrison L5 - the difference in quality between that and the Chinese mill is incredible. With regard to collets, I use ER25 and mine has a 3MT spindle
Taper. As someone rightly said, food
If you can match your lathe spindle taper then you can swap tooling. However, I think there advantages with MT 'finger' collets that fit straight in - less chance of run out, more rigid
Holding the cutter nearer to the spindle and you don't Lose any height as no collet chuck.
Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline NickG

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Re: buying a milling machine
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2013, 03:23:55 PM »
Forgot to add, someone mentioned earlier - get the biggest you can afford and accommodate - the more mass and the more rigid it is the better your results will be, obviously the larger capacity is more useful too.
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Offline mosey

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Re: buying a milling machine
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2013, 03:58:05 PM »
What I would like to add, is that MT2 or 3 collets tend to either not hold the work/mill tightly enough, allowing it to slip, or holding it too tightly, making it a nuisance to remove the cutter. It tends to become a bother after awhile. On the other hand, ER collets are easily tightened, hold well, and are vey easy to release. I have put Er on both my mill and lathe and can't imagine going back. There is one caveat, though, in that ER collets do not hold very short pieces concentrically, and do not allow you to use collet stops easily.
There are lots of folks very happily using MT2 collets, though.
Mosey

Offline andyf

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Re: buying a milling machine
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2013, 04:07:32 PM »
I don't think anyone has mentioned it, but round column millers can cause problems if the head swings around while you are raising/lowering it to accommodate a longer or shorter tool.  For example, you might want to switch from a centre drill bit which you used to start the hole to a much longer drill bit to do the real drilling, have to raise the head and then find you have the devil's own job relocating it in the right place. Millers with rectangular, dovetailed colums can be better in that respect.

That said, a round column can increase the work envelope, because you aren't limited to the table travel; in addition, you can swing the head from side to side.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline NickG

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Re: buying a milling machine
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2013, 05:09:58 PM »
Forgot to mention that, I went for a dovetailed column for that reason.
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Offline Arbalist

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Re: buying a milling machine
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2013, 05:33:48 PM »
 :proj:
Both the mills you mentioned have a 2 MT taper, it is mostly larger mills that have R8.  With the 2MT spindle you can use MT collets, or like myself, fit an ER collet chuck. The pro's & con's of the various types
is always a hot topic, and you will find everyone has their own ideas on the subject. Have a look at this site to see the various types.  www.arceurotrade.co.uk .

Cheers Dek.

+1
I should add that in my experience here in the UK there is slightly more tooling available in Morse Taper. You can also fit MT taper drill bits straight in the quill. I have a MT3 ER20 collet chuck for my mill but normally reach for a MT collet as it preserves the "Z".

Offline John Rudd

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Re: buying a milling machine
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2013, 06:26:00 PM »
BBB,
I have the Eagle 30 round column mill from Chester....very substantial . Ok not a Bridgeport but suits me, has an MT3 taper. I use an ER32 collet on it..

Buy what you can afford really...
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Location:  Backworth Newcastle

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Offline vtsteam

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Re: buying a milling machine
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2013, 07:45:54 PM »
I don't think anyone has mentioned it, but round column millers can cause problems if the head swings around while you are raising/lowering it to accommodate a longer or shorter tool.  For example, you might want to switch from a centre drill bit which you used to start the hole to a much longer drill bit to do the real drilling, have to raise the head and then find you have the devil's own job relocating it in the right place. Millers with rectangular, dovetailed colums can be better in that respect.

That said, a round column can increase the work envelope, because you aren't limited to the table travel; in addition, you can swing the head from side to side.

Andy

I have one of those, an Enco that I lucked into for $400 -- with base -- and it was like new -- apparently had 4 hours on it. Place was closing shop. As I was tying it down on my truck, they asked me If I wanted an old milling vise (restored in a separate thread here on MM) and a bunch of mills, clamps, Jacobs chucks (another thread here-- loosening) and other accessories which they dumped into a couple of boxes and loaded for me!

I've seen a number of different methods of getting around the round column positioning problem -- none of which I've tried yet. One of them is simply attaching a laser pointer to the head and marking a vertical line on the shop wall to line it up on.

I agree about the roughly made Asian machinery -- but used, it is affordable for people like me, and assuming some (or a lot of) work, it is a path to owning something you couldn't otherwise.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline Bigbadbugga

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Re: buying a milling machine
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2013, 08:52:00 PM »
BBB,
I have the Eagle 30 round column mill from Chester....very substantial . Ok not a Bridgeport but suits me, has an MT3 taper. I use an ER32 collet on it..

Buy what you can afford really...

I just had a look at the eagle30, it's a bit out of my price range to be honest. But the eagle25 is a similar price to the champion 20v in my original post.

Which of the two would be the best? I have to admit that the eagle looks the more heavily built of the two.
Tools: Boxford CSB lathe, Chester 20v mill, Portamig 185. Lots of ideas, No motivation.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: buying a milling machine
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2013, 09:19:01 PM »
My Enco is the same as the Eagle 30. It has an R8 taper. It looks like you can get the Eagle 25 in an R8 as well from that Chester site -- see the dropdown list.

Of course you may not want an R8 -- but I like it -- it was the standard for Bridgeports. I do think the ER collets are what most want, and I will probably go the adapter route myself some day as well. But for now the R8 works very well for me.

It has the disadvantage that my lathe accepts MT3 so they aren't directly compatible, but of course with adapters or collet chucks you can solve that.

It's impossible to say which of your choices is better, at least for me. The above mentioned advantage of a fixed slide instead of a round one is real. However, I would not personally trade my machine for the square slide one you mention. I believe jn weight/mass and mine is double the weight of the other. The HP rating is higher, I believe and the carriage travels are longer.

But, not having owned the square type, I can only give a suspicion, and that is that the square type might be built more precisely/better. Don't know it for a fact. Nevertheless, I still wouldn't trade, because I know that whatever I don't like about my mill (and there is little so far) I can change, and it is a more solid base, with more power and capacity.

If I were doing small models instead of some of the rough stuff I do, maybe I would choose the other.

One thing you should definitely do is visit the distributor and actually look at the real mills, turn the cranks, etc, and get an impression off of the computer, in the flesh.....er metal.

And don't ignore the possibility of an older used mill -- possibly a British or American mill in your price range.

I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline Bigbadbugga

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Re: buying a milling machine
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2013, 09:39:12 PM »
Thanks vtsteam, I think I will take your advice, Chester mt is only 30 minutes away and they have a large warehouse display. I'll go and get a feel for the different models and pick the brains of the sales people.

As for buying older second hand models, the thing that puts me off is the size and the actual moving of them, I had enough trouble with my Boxford lathe when I bought it.

Thanks for all the help guys. :)
Tools: Boxford CSB lathe, Chester 20v mill, Portamig 185. Lots of ideas, No motivation.

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: buying a milling machine
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2013, 02:24:17 AM »
BBB.
In an earlier life, I milled for a living. The only tooling held by MT tapers were drill bits.

Loved my first little Chester Conquest. HATED, having to "beat" the MT tooling out of the quill.......  :palm:

After 2 years, I replaced the first mill with another, but swapped the spindle and tooling for R8.     http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4754.0

Two years on . I'm still very happy with the machine.......  :)

Whichever machine you choose, go for R8, if you possibly can.  :thumbup:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline raynerd

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Re: buying a milling machine
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2013, 04:41:12 AM »
I'm also interest in a new mill - half hijacking the thread but also hopefully adding good info for the OP. I have an x2 size Chester Conquest and met a member on here who had a seig X3. This was a much more substantial machine and I'm considering upgrading I the next year. What other machine models and makes are similar size to the X3? Do you think the effort of the upgrade would be worth it?

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Re: buying a milling machine
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2013, 05:34:16 AM »
Get the SX3 not the X3 they are a better machine belt drive no gears and the 3 phase brushless DC motor ( don't ask how its 3 phase dc because I do not know ) is enclosed in the head a much neater job and get R8 not has I have MT3


The only fault I have found and fixed is the poor bearing arrangement for the quill pulley they only use one ball race and it wobbles as it would I have changed mine to a two bearing setup needs the housing boring a bit deeper and the pulley shaft shoulder skimmed , now its quite just hummus at full speed and very like quill rattle , this mod is documented on the internet but pm if you need it

Stuart

Offline raynerd

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Re: buying a milling machine
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2013, 06:26:21 AM »
Cheers Stuart - if I remember rightly, the Sx is quite a bit more than the x3 but I guess at these prices the extra is worth it. I take your point on R8 spindle however I own a bit of 3MT stuff including er32 chuck, drill chuck and face mills - the price goes up more with additional tooling needed. Good advice though and well worth thinking about! Cheers
Just to reiterate my previous post are Seig the only makers of an Sx3 size / type machine - or do others do similar renamed models?