Pete W's Tin Shed Project.

[Rob.Wilson]

Looking very nice Pete   


Thats a rock sold base ,,,,,,,,,,,,whats your plans for this shed ? 


Rob

[tekfab]

Don't tell him Pete,  he doesn't supply plans so why should you !     

Mike

[Pete W.]

Don't tell him Pete,  he doesn't supply plans so why should you !     

Mike

                 

Mike,

I'd have to be well 'ard to be that mean to anyone taking an interest in my project.

Rob,

The plan for this shed is to relieve congestion in the workshop.  You could say it's intended to be a facilitarium (or do I mean 'facilitorium'?).  I've been suffering an 'infection' where 'stuff' gets to act like a fungus and spreads, inexorably, to fill any horizontal surface.  So when I screw the bench vice in, stuff falls off the opposite side of the bench!                   

When I took the photos of the lathe in my thread in the 'Oooops' department, I had two large plastic tote boxes on the chair beside me full of all the odds and ends that had previously accumulated in the swarf tray.  They're still on that chair!

The tin shed doesn't have any windows or insulation so I'll not be able to actually DO much in there (but see my comments regarding the bench grinder in my original post).  There is a 'translucent panel' in the roof but it doesn't let much light in.  Still, I do plan to have a bench in there.  Also, the tin shed isn't very secure, about the same as the little wooden shed it's replacing.  Nevertheless, I hope to be able to store some low-value stuff in there to make room in the workshop.  And the floor area is about 40% up on that of the little wooden shed so I hope there'll be room to get to things without having to move other things out to give access.

All that is still a week or two away yet.  There are a lot of screws to fit, if I can persuade the holes to line up, and the floor to finish when the sun comes out again.  And last night's rain found a few holes in the roof!

[Rob.Wilson]

I've been suffering an 'infection' where 'stuff' gets to act like a fungus and spreads, inexorably, to fill any horizontal surface.  So when I screw the bench vice in, stuff falls off the opposite side of the bench! 

  Hi Pete ,,,,,,,,,,,,I no the feeling     ,,,,,,,,,,,,, but the more space you have , the more usefully ,may come in handy one day stuff you tend to keep 


Rob

[Pete W.]

Hi there, all,

Again, I haven't posted for a few days but work has been proceeding slowly - more non-photogenic stuff.



The doors are on and the floor boards cut to fit, treated with wood preservative, fixed down and then topped with shuttering ply.  The joint between the two halves of the roof has been taped with aluminium tape and then covered with the ridge capping strip.  I've also washed down most of the exterior, it had got very dirty with leaf mould while the sections were stacked beneath the oak tree at the bottom of the garden for almost two years.

There are still a few screws to fit - I've had to discard quite a few of the original screws because they are rusty and I've had to await deliveries. 
I'm currently waiting for some galvanised mild steel channel to replace the stiffeners half way up the wall interiors.  They were each in two pieces and we seem to have paired them up wrongly.  Also, too many of the holes in the old ones didn't register with the holes in the wall panels.          
The new channel will be in one piece per wall and I'll spot through all of the holes (with the help of my lovely but shy assistant!)          

Still, I'm hopeful that the coming weekend will see us transferring the contents of the old wooden shed to this one and dismantling the old one ready for disposal.          

[vtsteam]

I have the same shed! Ten million screws and no panel bigger than about a square foot, and 50 pages of instructions. The first one warns you not to start building if its windy!

I only had to build it once -- I can't imagine re-building it once disassembled. My greatest admiration to you Pete. I thought awemawson's project was complex, but I hadn't realized you were referring to THIS metal shed. 

[Pete W.]

I have the same shed! Ten million screws and no panel bigger than about a square foot, and 50 pages of instructions. The first one warns you not to start building if its windy!

SNIP

That sounds like the one although you are exagerpating somewhat.  Not quite ten million screws but quite a lot.  Some are self tapping (aka 'PK') and some have machine thread.  They all have/had square socket mushroom (or flat-domed) heads - I haven't been able to source exact replacements so I've got a mixture of philips and pozi. 
Our wall panels are a bit bigger than a square foot, they go from foundation strips to eaves, but the warning about windy days strikes a chord - I could have done with an extra two lovely but shy assistants!  (     Just temporary, dear, honest.     )

Were all 50 pages of your instructions in English?

[vtsteam]

Yes, exaggerating, Pete, though it still took 2 full work days to assemble, even with a screw gun.

I went out and looked at it just now, and realized they aren't exactly the same. Mine has a gambrel roof and is 8x10 feet. A rough count of the outside shows over 300 screws, and you're right, the wall paneling does go floor to ceiling. The roof panels are small however because of the gambrel roof, and If I remember correctly, the building corners are multi-piece. I have 3 ridge poles instead of your 1, of course, and they are built up from smaller pieces. The screws are cross slotted, not square socketed like yours. The instructions are long gone, but probably multilingual.

I do have a few leaks, one I haven't yet located in the roof because it runs along an inside seam -- as a gambrel roof it has more seams to leak. But the major ingress comes along the base. The eaves are pathetically short -- an inch? So water just flows off the roof down the side of the building. Side seams aren't very big so it can also come in that way. There is no floor sealing method supplied with the kit, so water can just seep in along the floor. I did apply putty sealant but it hasn't worked, possibly because of the side seams.

The instructions said to put a prop from the floor to the middle of the peak to prevent snow from collapsing the roof (kit for that not supplied, but purchasable by special order). Quite a disappointment to read that after purchase and construction began. I just used a 2x4 prop -- but no longer an 8 x 10 clear space.

Yours may be different (better) after all, so not meant to be discouraging. I would hate to have to re-build mine again, though!

[Pete W.]

Hi there,

Thank you for your post, it's very interesting to compare notes.

Our shed has a ridge 'girder' comprising two sheet metal channels bolted back-to-back.  Then there are two purlins, one halfway down each flank of the roof, they are also metal channels bolted back-to-back.  I had occasion to prop the centre of our ridge girder while I got up on top to fit some screws I'd omitted - I used a 4" by 4" gate-post and some wedges.  We had a volunteer helper to lift the roof on in two halves so we had to do that part of the job when he was available rather than when it suited us!  Ideally, I'd have assembled the roof to a more complete state while it was on the ground and then lifted it onto the walls in one piece but that would have required more level ground than we have as well as needing more muscle.

I haven't left the prop in place - you probably get more snow there than I can recall here in recent years, about 9" maximum.          

I think I said in an earlier post that, as supplied, the shed was a bit short of headroom.  So I mounted it on the 'eco-sleepers' on edge.  That increases the headroom by 200 mm less about 50 mm for the thickness of the floor scaffold boards plus shuttering ply.  It does have the disadvantage that you have to step up and over on entry and exit.

There's an airspace under the floor and permeable limestone scalpings beneath that so any rain that gets in can just go right on through.          
If the rain does come in through the seams between the panels, I shall try running some silicone sealant along the seams.

I do hope to be able to get some plastic guttering close enough in under the eaves to be able to catch the rainwater and send it to a water butt.

[Pete W.]

I have the same shed! Ten million screws and no panel bigger than about a square foot, and 50 pages of instructions. The first one warns you not to start building if its windy!

I only had to build it once -- I can't imagine re-building it once disassembled. My greatest admiration to you Pete. I thought awemawson's project was complex, but I hadn't realized you were referring to THIS metal shed. 

Hi there, again, VT,

Looking back, I realise I was a bit churlish about your post, sorry.          

What do you use your metal shed for, is it your main workshop?

[vtsteam]

Oh don't worry Pete! And also looking back at my first post I realize I wasn't encouraging, being too taken up with my own supposed sense of humor about my own shed. You've done a great job! 

I have mixed storage in there, plus a CNC foam cutter I built, lots of foam, and a lot of my casting supplies (the shed is adjacent to my new furnace) . It's nearly impossible to get into now and I need to stop procrastinating and sort it out to make it usable again. Also fix the leaks before some important things get ruined. 

The main impediment to access is the CNC foam cutter, which takes up 4 x 8 feet. I should take that apart, since I'm not using it these days.

Your shed must feel great to be completing, and will be an asset to organization, as a new space always is. 

I need to convert mine back to that!

[Pete W.]

I have the same shed! Ten million screws and no panel bigger than about a square foot, and 50 pages of instructions.

SNIP

Hi there, again, VT,

As I wrote earlier, our shed panels are held together with self-tapping screws.  These have nasty sharp points that come into the interior of the shed.  They were originally covered with little white plastic screw-on gizmos that I tried to save during the dis-assembly.  However, lots of them got lost during the move and the time the shed parts were stacked awaiting re-assembly.

I'd buy some more to complete the job but I haven't found any on the self-tapping screw stockists' web sites, mainly because I don't know what they're called! 
Googling 'little white plastic screw-on gizmos' hasn't met with a lot of success!          

(Needless to say, I did also google 'screw covers', 'thread covers', 'thread shields', 'thread protectors', 'point covers' and as many other similar phrases as I could think of.)

You mentioned that you have (or had) the assembly instructions for your shed - do those instructions include a parts list with a mention of 'little white plastic screw-on gizmos'?  If so, please can you tell me their 'official' name?          

Failing all of that, I shall get some small diameter PVC tubing and cut it into short pieces and screw them onto the screw points. 

Our spell of hot dry weather has come to an end and I have a few leaks in the shed roof to locate and fix.  So moving-in day has been postponed somewhat.          

[vtsteam]

Pete, I just went out and checked on the shed, because I didn't remember plastic screw protectors at all. There are none in my shed.

All of the sheet metal screws are very short. And they are almost all protruding into some form of integrated structural guard. Typically they protrude into stamped framing shaped like either a channel, or angle, so you really can't contact them. And they might be protruding only 2mm anyway. Where they would be exposed, the fastener is generally a machine screw and nut rather than a sheet metal screw.

Would soda straws work in your case? Or possibly pieces of clear vinyl tubing, cut into lengths with scissors?

[Pete W.]

Hi there, VT,

Thank you for your prompt reply and especially for going out to eyeball your shed fixings.

Yes, short lengths of small bore vinyl tubing seems to be the way I should go.  I've replaced a lot of the original screws because they had rusted - the replacements I bought are 1/2" rather than the 3/8" originals and, although they are not self-drilling, they still do have vicious points.

The original screws were assembled with thin plastic washers under their heads but those washers didn't survive the move.  I found some self adhesive black neoprene washers on eBay and have fitted those wherever I've used the new screws.

[vtsteam]

Happy to help, Pete.

Hope you get those leaks solved! I don't think the tape system these sheds have is a very good way to do it -- particularly on my gambrel roof where rain runs into a joint from a higher peak. I'm actually thinking of making a new simple peaked roof from standard galvanized roofing and setting it over the old one. Also I'm a great believer in eaves, especially here in snow country, so I'd have those on a new roof.

Best of luck Pete and keep the progress coming!

[Pete W.]

Hi there, all,

Gosh, is it really almost a month since I last posted in this thread?  Well, it hasn't been for lack of action.  I've added a few refinements to the tin shed and then moved the contents of the little shed into the tin one.  That took several sessions and the help of my lovely but shy assistant.  So, this morning, bright and early, I removed the last few bits and pieces that hadn't seemed important while the 'big stuff' was being moved.  Then, after walking man's best friend, it was time for the grand dismantling.

Here's the little shed, after removal of the gutter and sundry trim:



Then off with one roof section:



Then the other:



Then off with the door end:



And the non-window side:



By this time, I couldn't work single-handed so I called for my lovely but shy assistant.  However, she was eager to get back to a sick computer she was doctoring so photography was veto'd until we reached this stage:



We decided to quit at that stage and clear up the rest tomorrow!          

The shed sections are stacked out of the way.  There are a few nails that still need to be removed.

I'm sorry the photos are a bit fuzzy - I think the camera was sympathising with my troubled brow.

[RossJarvis]

Dear Pete, I'm getting a bit confused here, seeing your wooden shed being dismantled and empty, and that you and the lovely but shy one moved the contents, makes me think you are both related to superman

Last time I had a look in your shed it had several implements that'd require a crane to lift

Are you both; a,Superpersons, b, pyramid builders, c,stonehenge erectors? or is there yet another shed I'm missing?

[Pete W.]

Hi there, Ross,

Thank you for your post.

a)  My lovely but shy assistant is a Superperson.                     

b)  Well, my late father was a bit of a pyramid builder, not in the size/weight of his projects but in how he built to last.     He worked in wood all his working life, apprenticed in the cabinet shop of a dental instrument makers, then working for an antique furniture restorer, a spell at Weymanns' coachworks building Black Marias, then working as a scenic carpenter first in the film studios and later at BBC TV Centre.  In his spare time he was regularly making quality cabinetwork and furniture for family and friends.  All the while he was alive and active his tools were in fine condition but soon after he got sick and died lots of his tool handles developed woodworm almost as if someone had thrown a switch!  Explain that if you can!          

c)  Apart from limestone scalpings, we don't work in stone.  Anyway, what's a 'henge' ?

Apart from all that, we're determined to get the job done but mostly have to do it ourselves.  As Keith Fenner says in another Internet place, 'Get 'er done!'.

I'm glad you decided to continue your log store thread on Mad Modders.    

[RossJarvis]

 
c)  Apart from limestone scalpings, we don't work in stone.  Anyway, what's a 'henge' ?

Personally I think it's an older version of hedge.

   I went to the standing stones in Callanish on the isle of Harris, this was obviously an ancient bus stop shelter.  Vertical flat stones in all sorts of orientations to protect you from sideways rain.  No need for a roof on Harris, water never comes down vertically!

[Pete W.]

Hi there, all,

While I've been devoting all my efforts on the tins shed, the workshop seems to have got jealous and developed a leak in the roof!          

Having priced-up roofing felt, I'm thinking of stripping off the felt and re-roofing in box section steel sheeting on top of the existing T&G boards.

[awemawson]

Pete,

Give some consideration to stopping condensation on the underside of your box sheeting or it will quickly rot out your T&G boarding. Perhaps also a membrane of some sort between them? Or maybe an air gap spacing the box sheeting on something that won't rot?

AWEM

[Pete W.]

Hi there, Andrew,

Thank you for your prompt about the membrane.

Having given that aspect some consideration, I have the beginning of a scheme in my head.  It'll need some exploration on paper and phoning suppliers of material but it goes something like this:

[As they say in the Military, 'No plan survives contact with the enemy!']          

1.  Pray for dry and calm weather, repeat as necessary,

2.  Procure some insulation (Kingspan or similar),

3.  Procure some timber (aka 'lumber') matching the thickness of the insulation,

4.  Strip off the many layers of old roofing felt,

5.  Examine the existing T&G boards and make good where necessary  (or, strip off old T&G boards and replace with shuttering ply),

6.  Lay out a heavy gauge polythene DPC over the roof, stapling to existing structural timbers,

7.  Position three new timbers as purlins at top edge, bottom edge and midway up the roof, secure to existing rafters, (timbers to be pre-treated with preservative),

8.  Add framing timbers between purlins at suitable intervals to stabilise the geometry, skew-nailed or otherwise fixed so as to not intrude into spaces,

9.  Cut insulation to fit spaces in frame, seal cut edges with adhesive aluminium tape and fit in position,

10. Position four 1 metre wide sheets of box section steel sheeting, one sheet overlapping two boxes to adjust overall width to match roof,

11.  Install eaves filler strips top and bottom.  Attach sheets to purlins. top, bottom and midway, using self-drilling fixings with integral seals,

12.  Contrive and attach some form of flashing to direct rainwater into existing gutter.  (The upper surface of roof will be some 4" higher than the old one.)

As already stated, 'No plan survives contact with the enemy!'         

I'll continue in this thread as it's still tin and still a shed, even if not the same shed!!   

Doubtless, pix to follow, watch this space!

[naffsharpe (Nathan)]

Hi Pete,
 
Sounds like you,ve got some work ahead of you! It also sounds similar to my recent rebuild and suggest you might like to consider the following ideas.
1) Frame the roof with timber the same thickness as your insulation board (eaves/apex/facia edges) and across the roof at centres to match the width of your insulation.
2) Lay the insulation into this framework.
3) Fit your ply to the framing timbers.
4) Fit a breathable barrier (ie. Tyvek ) do not use polythene or felt unless you want to redo the job in a few years !! Using polythene or felt means that your condensing layer will, because it is in contact with the underlying timber, simply soak it and help it to rot.
5) Fit purlins from treated timber and use a non setting mastic on their underside to seal the fixings to the existing roof boards.
6) Use more purlins than the minimum.
7) Close the sheets at the verges but not at the apex or facia , the air flow will help to keep the roof condensation free.
8) At the facia/gutter edge lay a piece of roofing felt over the purlin and bent down into the gutter.

I went a bit further with mine and laid a water guide geotextile over the roof sheets and then covered it in a mix of bark chippings/compost and pea gravel before planting it with rockery type plants. This gives me a quiet roof during heavy rainfall (quite common here in N Wales !!) and adds another layer of insulation to the roof.
On my roof which is a single pitch 5m x 5m there is no sag visible even with 100mm of snow on it.
Hope you can use somerhing from the above !!

Nathan.

[Pete W.]

Hi there, Nathan,

Thank you for your recommendations.

Your item #1 is covered by my item #3.

I don't understand your item #3.  I should explain that the existing roof of the shed consists of T&G boards supported by rafters, surrounded by barge-boards and fascias, the whole topped with several layers of roofing felt.  The shed, a nominal 8' by 12', has accompanied me through two house-moves.  The wooden part of the roof, whose approximate dimensions are 8' 7" by 12' 4", is actually in two halves and at each house-move I've cut the roofing felt where the sections meet and fitted two layers of new felt overall on re-assembly.  After the first house-move, I inserted two lengths of Dexion slotted angle, vertical web upwards, between the two sections, with their ends resting on the front and rear walls.  I secured this sandwich with coach-bolts through the two relevant rafters picking up convenient holes in the slotted angle.  I have heard this sort of sandwich described as a 'flitch beam', the wooden members prevent the vertical steel webs from buckling despite their being in compression.  This flitch beam feature greatly reduces any tendency for the roof to sag in the middle.

I intend to retain all this existing structure except the roofing felt.  If the T&G boards have deteriorated (there is a leak in the felt) only then will I replace them with the shuttering ply.

I take issue with your item #4.  I plan to fit a vapour barrier of polythene sheet on the top of the T&G boards (or ply) and lay the purlins on that, spaced with noggins and with the insulation material cut to fit the spaces in the resulting frame (your item #1, my item #3).  The purlins function is to transmit the load of the steel sheets, either wind induced lift or snow load, to the existing rafters.  Because the upper surface of the insulation is flush with the upper surfaces of the purlins, the insulation will share some of the latter form of loading.  With this arrangement, the notional condensation zone will be above the insulation, the T&G boards will be in the warm zone.  I do not expect condensation to occur at that level, neither will it occur beneath the steel sheets because the vapor barrier will confine water vapour originating in the manned space to the manned space.  Also, with this arrangement the T&G boards will support the polythene vapour barrier and prevent it from drooping into the manned space.

Regarding your item #6, see the preceding paragraph above regarding load bearing.  I had originally planned to use three purlins, at the top & bottom edges and mid-span but the roof dimensions are such that a fourth purlin will reduce the total area of the spaces in the frame and avoid my having to buy a fourth 2.4 m by 1.2 m sheet of insulation.

Regarding your item #7, the manufacturers of the insulation material specify that it should be protected from the weather.  The eaves filler will satisfy this requirement and condensation at the insulation/steel sheeting interface will be minimal because moisture vapour is excluded by the vapour barrier and the eaves filler.

Regarding your item #8, I intend the new roof to be totally free of roofing felt.  The manufacturers of the steel sheets offer a matching flashing strip come fascia which I shall arrange to route the rain into the existing gutter.

For access to the central fixings of the box section steel sheets, I plan to attach battens to the underside of a scaffold board to lift it clear of the upstanding parts of the profile.

Regarding your closing remarks, my existing roof also has an organic topping but mine is of moss, acorns, oak apples and twigs.  The shed is overhung by a mature oak to the East, a large willow to the West and a struggling apple tree to the North.  I expect that these will soon apply a similar topping to the new roof!

This is my second attempt at this reply - I must have hit the wrong key just as I finished it and it seems to have got lost in cyberspace!  If it reappears and this becomes a double post, I can only throw myself on the mercy of the Moderators.

[Pete W.]

I had a phone call to say the Kingspan (seconds) will be delivered on Monday.

The guy also told me that I don't need to tape the cut edges.