Hand Files and Their Handles??

[Pete W.]

Hi there, all,

This is a bit embarrassing but here goes anyway:

One of the birthday presents I received yesterday is a set of ten 10" hand files.  I made sure that they came with handles but, of course, the handles came separately.

I've often read the advice to 'reserve your new files for use on brass'.
The relevance of that advice to this post is that until now (except for a 12" Dreadnought and a 10" Millenicut) I've never had any new files!  So I've rarely, if ever, had to fit a handle to a file!

Now, here's the thing:  The tangs of the files are tapered.  The pre-drilled holes in the handles are parallel and they look too small.
What do you Modders advise as the best/proper procedure to fit the handles to the files (or the files to the handles)?

[sbwhart]

Hi Pete

I assume the handles are wood if so you burn them on:-

Just heat the tang to a dull red and push them into the hole, it will stink the house out and set the smoke alarm off so do it outside, when its gone over 3/4 of the way into the handle pull it out then let it cool down a bit and then tap it back in, in the same orientation as you burnt it, hold the file and give the end of the handle a bash on the top of the bench to seat it down nice and firm on the tang.

If they are plastic, i assume you just bash them in but not sure on this.

Stew

[vtsteam]

Just so you know, what Stew means by bash the handle down on the bench -- you're holding the handle end when you do that, not the file end, and you're tapping the bottom of the handle down -- inertia drives the file in.

Kinda like you do with a hammer with a loose head.

Except they should never be loose....

Speaking of files, I have a friend who is a whitesmith. He makes fabulous locks. He does it with a small coal forge, cold chisels and files. I've seen him make a key with a hollow tubular stem that was triangular in cross section and perfectly shaped. This is what files can do in the hands of a master.

[Stilldrillin]

Pete.

Wot Stew says. Gives a perfect fit.... 

VT. That's quite an impressive padlock! (I think)...... 

David D

[garym]

Hi Pete,

If they are plastic like the Vallorbe ones that Axminster sell, then they screw on. I really like them.

Gary

[mattinker]

Hi,

the tang of a file is deliberately left unhardened to be able be pushed onto a wooden handle without snapping. If more force is required, take the file and the file/handle, handle down and hit it against a bench or something like that. I've never heard of heating the tang red hot before, obviously works! I would drill it out to a convenient size!

Regards, Matthew

[vtsteam]

VT. That's quite an impressive padlock! (I think)...... 

David D

David that is just one example. He's done amazing things with locks. all different, a hundred different locks. And they are big. 9" some are. Some trick locks take 5 secret operations to open. He has made globe shaped locks and heart shaped locks. With heart shaped tubes in the key body.

He doesn't own a mill or a lathe. It's all hand work, forming with the forge, chipping with the chisel and filing. He loves new files like we love a finely made lathe. He can make files.

He barely makes a living. Maybe 2 collectors in the world buy his work. He sells them for far less than they are worth in my opinion. Takes odd jobs to make ends meet -- last I saw he was puttying a stack of windows for someone. He's a true artisan.

[Pete W.]

Hi there, all,

First of all, a big thank you to all of you who have responded to my initial post.

                  

I'm very grateful for all your constructive posts and for your gentle deliveries - part of me feared that I would be heaped with scorn and derision for having such a gap in my skill-set.  Still, if you don't ask .......

Secondly, I too am very impressed by the picture Vtsteam posted.  Skill with hand tools takes many forms and can reach amazing levels.  My late father was a woodworker, he trained as a cabinet maker.  When he was planing a piece of wood, he used to check it with the square and with his critical eye every so often but I'm convinced his chest and arm muscles knew when it was flat and square!
I regret not paying more attention when he tried to pass on some of his skills to me!!   

Thanks again.

[micktoon]

Glad you found out the info you needed Pete  I would like to see more photos of V.T's friends locks , very interesting , they must take some hours to make, its sickening that often people with such skill can not make much money, yet there seems to be people all around getting paid high wages who seem to be able to do very little  , its a funny old world .
  Cheers Mick.

[vtsteam]

Here's some not very good photos of a few of Kevin's locks. I haven't seen any pix that do them justice. The small chiseled in details, the finish, it just doesn't come through, plus the photos are small. The one I show above does the best job of conveying what they are like, the detail and the finish, etc.

http://www.antique-padlocks.com/pc_moreau.htm

I think he's got some better photos himself. I'll try to get some up on the Gallery section after I see him again.

Thanks for asking!

[garym]

<snip>.... its sickening that often people with such skill can not make much money, yet there seems to be people all around getting paid high wages who seem to be able to do very little  , its a funny old world .
  Cheers Mick.

I don't know who said it but I remember once reading a quote that people are paid in inverse ratio to their usefulness to society. Always seems to ring true to me.

Gary

[Stilldrillin]

<snip>.... its sickening that often people with such skill can not make much money, yet there seems to be people all around getting paid high wages who seem to be able to do very little  , its a funny old world .
  Cheers Mick.

I don't know who said it but I remember once reading a quote that people are paid in inverse ratio to their usefulness to society. Always seems to ring true to me.

Gary

How true, Gary.......

I often wonder what top paid people actually do with all that money. 

David D

[flutedchamber]

If you can find them, General #890 file handles are great.  They are a textured plastic with a steel end cap and two jaws that grip the sides of the file tang.  You put the tang in the handle and twist the cap on the end of the handle to tighten the jaws.  They don't slip and are easy to change.  The older design had a slot in the screw so you could use a screwdriver to tighten the assembly.  You can add the slot to the new "improved" design. 

They are pricy..and range from $5 each to over $10, depending on where you buy them from. 

[DavidA]

I suppose I will ruffle a few feathers here,  but it needs to be said.
The artisan trade caters for the people who often appear to have more than their fair share of disposable wealth. The rest of use who have to be more utilitarian in our choices will settle for a more practical piece of equipment that is probably turned out in the  thousands by a company in China.

It is all very well getting sentimental about people like the guy who makes these locks,  but in the end it is his choice. If he wants to make items on a not for profit basis,  all strength to him,  but it is his choice.
I appreciate the skill that goes into these things,  but we do live in the twenty first century. There will always be people who will do this,  but unless there are also people with more than average cash in the pocket then they will have no one to sell to.
On consideration I think that everyone here who makes things would never get back what they put into them if they were to do it as an occupation. This may not apply if you use CNC etc and batch production.

I would imagine that the guy does it for his own pleasure more than anything else. Good luck to him.

Dave.
(Now,  where did I put my flack jacket ?)

[tom osselton]

Well I have always liked the old locks maybe he would have better luck selling them with with a chest or something like that giving them a use not just a purpose.

[Jonny]

There are plenty of wealthy people about and if your good enough you don't need to tout or advertise for work.
Plus theres certain things a cnc can never do like it or not without even mentioning the hand made aspect which he should charge cnc prices and laugh all the way to the bank.
End product takes same amount of time!

[S. Heslop]

I think it's all about presentation. The people with money to spare pay more attention when you suggest there's some romantic higher plane to making stuff. I've seen things where it's done subtly, like a photo of the item being assembled on a table surrounded by dividers and Leonardo DaVinci style blueprints, or showing videos of the item being machined from odd angles that obscure what's actually happening. Which all makes the process very ethereal and mysterious.

People seem to love anything ethereal and mysterious, and i've got no idea why.

[vtsteam]

Files can do amazing things in the hands of a person dedicated to doing amazing things with the simplest tools.

[mosey]

I had the pleasure some years ago of watching a couple of elder gentlemen in the Ithaca Gun Company custom department making shotguns from a billet of steel, the fitting done almost entirely by filing, although there was some obvious drilling, etc., involved. There was virtually no milling or other machining done to the receivers, and then they were hand engraved and inlayed. I think they sold for $12,000 - $20,000 at the time (1960's). These were coveted by the rich guys, and the wait was 6 mos to two years for one.
Now, they are made in Sandusky Ohio on a CNC center, and they boast that they are more precisely made than their historic ones. Maybe, but which would you prefer?
Mosey

[S. Heslop]

I had the pleasure some years ago of watching a couple of elder gentlemen in the Ithaca Gun Company custom department making shotguns from a billet of steel, the fitting done almost entirely by filing, although there was some obvious drilling, etc., involved. There was virtually no milling or other machining done to the receivers, and then they were hand engraved and inlayed. I think they sold for $12,000 - $20,000 at the time (1960's). These were coveted by the rich guys, and the wait was 6 mos to two years for one.
Now, they are made in Sandusky Ohio on a CNC center, and they boast that they are more precisely made than their historic ones. Maybe, but which would you prefer?
Mosey

Assuming their claim of being more precisely made is true, i'd go for that one.

I can understand being proud of something you'd made yourself, but I'm not sure if I really get the appeal of paying for somebody else to do the extra effort on your behalf if it doesn't lead to a better product.

I also find it odd when people assume hand tools are automatically superior to machines. You don't see much of it here, but on some corners of the internet that attidue is wildly out of control. I've seen newbies to woodworking get suckered into buying high end hand planes and pull saws before they even own a drill, and have even fell pratfall of something similar myself. So I think it's worth trying to keep rational about the pros and cons of these things.

[mosey]

There is a special satisfaction from making something perhaps laboriously by hand that is not in any way related to production by machine. This is evidenced by the Japanese crafts of chisel/sword making, glass making, cabinet making, etc. There is a Zen state involved. Unless you have experienced it, I think that you will not have any idea of what I am describing.
It is not related or comparable to modern processes.
I am not suggesting that it is superior to hand crafts for the non-maker, just different.
I am not trying to be contentious, but share something I experienced and value.
Mosey   

[Jonny]

If you want something precisely fitted, it can only be done by hand tools, talking microns with a high polished finish. Literally a few microns out its scrap its that critical!
I would dearly love to see some whiz kid pick up a file assuming he held the right way round to start with. Then theres the small matter of doing the job, only the best need apply of which circa 50 in UK top whack that could.

The gun trade having worked in it at top level mostly uses cnc even on quality stuff. The downside is the parts can only be made some where near then sent out to specialists of which there are less than three still alive worldwide in certain areas.
We used to deal with quality mostly English/Scottish stuff, sorry different league to everything else. Though do know three ex Brit pats who setup in US. Nothing better with customer forking out £97k Purdey standing along side then taking a hammer to it because cnc couldn't do their job after more than two decades of practice. Its not just external cosmetic its internal hidden from view as well.
To my knowledge theres only 5 people that can make finished article by hand. Some setup after getting sacked from the big houses since they only employ nothing more than engineers.
What really killed the trade was about 11 years ago the US high flyers realising they were paying top dollar for a cnc made product at hand made prices, quite frankly don't blame them.

Due to the high cnc setup, programming, reprogramming which has been endless theres still a long way to go and they have to recoup these costs, hence the higher price for cnc batch end product.
Any idiot can sit at a desk with no understanding, knowledge of intended use draw something up, convert over and load machine up - just sounds good. For most every day products its fine but top high end no.


Regarding the files, just bang the tangs in to the round or square holes. To remove knock them off, used to go through two best quality aka (Vallorbe) files a day sometimes quicker than milling out.

[Jonny]

Precisely Mosey, how long does it take to properly make a Damascus sword - years.
They are supposedly better and stronger though, its the forging process

[mosey]

Shakespeare, Byron, Einstein, Joyce, T. S. Elliott used only a pencil.
Mosey

[vtsteam]

Not everything is a competition. Seems there's room in the world for people who appreciate CNC and those who appreciate hand work -- why should we be mad at each other over preferences? I'm a mad modder who appreciates both. I've done a little of both. My level of workmanship pales by comparison to the best of either, and I have great respect for people supremely competent in ways that I will never achieve in what is left of this lifetime.

One of the things I greatly appreciated was Steve Heslop's video of making his helmet, mostly by hand and perseverance. And perhaps a little Zen. Another video I appreciated was a giant crankshaft being CNC turned and milled.

The world is an interesting and complex place. This forum shows us the range of talents and skills, materials and techniques, approaches, and alternate approaches that the creativity of humankind can muster.

And there's no end to it.

[geoff_p]

In response to Mosey #20, I agree with you about "Zen"
My Grandad was an excellent cabinet-maker, though sadly I learned little from him.  But for some years now, when I'm careless in my woodwork, I can "feel" Pop looking over my shoulder and admonishing me to "do it right."  And if I do, there is a great satisfaction to knowing I have!  A higher state, perhaps.
Geoff