Author Topic: Angle straight edge  (Read 12237 times)

Offline steamer

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Angle straight edge
« on: July 28, 2012, 02:28:05 PM »
I needed a angle straight edge to do some scraping on my Waltham toolmakers lathe.   Not having one or the cash to get one, I made one.

I tried to make it directly on my surface plate.   What I found was that it would not mark properly because at the angle, how I held it affected the mark up or influenced the mark up.

So after a false start, I made a normal straight edge to mark up the angle one.


this was used to mark up the angle one.


And the two of them together


I have a 12 x 18 surface plate and a scraper.   It's just work and making something flat is not that hard....try it.

Dave
« Last Edit: July 28, 2012, 05:34:35 PM by steamer »
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Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: Angle straight edge
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2012, 08:54:31 PM »
Quote
It's just work and making something flat is not that hard....try it.

I need to learn how to. Scraping just intimidates the hell out of me.  :zap:
Science is fun.

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Offline steamer

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Re: Angle straight edge
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2012, 09:04:34 PM »
Ah don't let it Eric,  It all seems scary but you have to remember, it happens at a slow pace....it gives you warnings that things are going pear shaped.    The more difficult thing to learn is to not trust only one piece of data.  You have to trust then verify,,,,

For instance , the plain straight edge above.  The mark up says its flat...whats another way to prove it?

You could do a spin test.    Set the part down on a clean flat plate, and push 1 end such that it wants to spin.  It should have a center or rotation about 1/3 the way in from the other end if it's flat....any place else and it's not what you think it is or there is dirt under the piece

Another way is the paper test.   Get yourself some smoking paper....yes I use ZIGZAG,,,,,but not for what some of you use it for :)
Cut 1 piece into 3 strips and put a piece at each end and 1 in the middle.   Gently tug on each piece and note the difference in tension to slightly move the paper.   Because your fingers are very sensitive , you can very easily detect a .0001" variation in flatness using this technique.

The rest is work and practice.   But getting something flat is not that hard.   Get yourself a piece of clean iron and have at it.
It's actually very relaxing....for the first hour... :D

Dave
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Offline Dean W

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Re: Angle straight edge
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2012, 11:51:07 PM »
Very interesting comments on checking for flat in your last post, Dave.  Scraping seems like magic for many of us,
I think.  Mainly because it's hard to grasp that a man with very simple tools can make an incredibly close tolerance item.
Anyway, I do enjoy your scraping adventures.  : )
Dean W.

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Offline loply

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Re: Angle straight edge
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2012, 05:02:02 AM »
Hi Dave,

I'm learning to scrape at the moment and I can get things flat (bearing points evenly distributed) but I can't get the density or neat distribution of points shown in your photos.

I don't think it's too difficult it just takes X hours of practice, and I'm not there yet!

Something I'm curious about is tooling though - I bought the Sandvik carbide insert scraper, and I built a 'castor' type pull scraper which takes HSS 1/2" shanks, but I'd like to know what the cutter should do in order for me to get more points per inch; Do I need a tighter radius on the edge?

Cheers,
Rich

Offline steamer

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Re: Angle straight edge
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2012, 08:55:33 AM »
Rich

Yes for lots of small spots you will want to use a tigher radius blade so you can get "JUST" the spot.

I didn't like that look on my cross slide of my lathe so I changed back to a large radius at the end to get a different look.

Try shortening your stroke, and lighten up a bit and cut only the high spots with a smaller radius blade....the finer the points the longer it takes to make a pass....but that's how it goes

Do make sure your crossing your cuts.

Good to see ya here Dean!  Thanks for the interest!

Dave


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Offline steamer

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Re: Angle straight edge
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2012, 09:18:59 AM »
Rich,
Here's a shot of my Anderson scraper with a blade I use for dovetails.....and for the straight edges.  It's HSS.






Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
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Offline loply

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Re: Angle straight edge
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2012, 01:01:11 PM »
Thanks for that help, the radius shown is a lot tighter than the radius on mine, it's probably around 10 inches by my estimate.

I have a diamond wheel and the raw materials to make a cast iron lapping wheel so that I can reshape the blade, alas, my lathe is offline at the moment so I can't make the necessary hub adapter for the diamond wheel to get it onto my bench grinder, so I'll have to wait!

Anyway, I'm following your posts with interest and when I have accomplished something noteworthy I'll be sure to post some pics of my tools and results!

Cheers,
Rich


Offline TroyO

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Re: Angle straight edge
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2012, 02:28:40 PM »
Since it's somewhat related, here are some shots of my first efforts at scraping and making exactly the same tool as Steamers... an angled straight edge. It's made from just about the cheapest/crappiest thing possible, an old window sash weight, LOL.

Anyway... my technique isn't as good as Daves (Yet) but you do learn the basics in pretty short order. I need to re-shape my scraper a bit and try some other things to get the spotting finer, but make no mistake that puppy is perty darn flat on the one side that I worked so far... it sucks itself down to the surface plate and "sticks" a little.

If you haven't tried it yet, I suggest starting bare bones.... an old file with the teeth sanded off the end and ground into an arch shape and sharpened. A hunk of granite countertop or even a 12" granite tile "floating" on a carpet tile is "Durn near flat" and will get you better results than most "precision ground" made in china products come with by default. Thick glass will work too. Add a tube of spotting ink and you could get a bare bones scraping job going for what, $20?

If you want to scare yourself in to it.... start "spotting" your "precision" surfaces just to take a look at how flat they aren't........

Offline steamer

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Re: Angle straight edge
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2012, 08:45:52 PM »
Hey Troy!

I'm glad your having fun!   Keep at it!
I use this product for my mark ups



It's water based and cleans up easy with mineral spirits and is no where near as messy as "High Point Blue"

E S Dyjak inc ....I believe the label has the address.

It's a small company....but this stuff is pretty nice.

Dave



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Offline PekkaNF

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Re: Angle straight edge
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2012, 03:39:32 AM »
Never managed to scrape properly. Just made few half assed tries.
Just a quickie questions:
1) Does anybody knows EU source for these spotting dyes (have tried to use some prussian blue oil color thinnned etc. and "Stuarts Micrometer Engineers Blue", but have difficulties with them - I believe it's just me).
2) I have some OD100 mm offcuts of EN-GJS-500-7 (GRP 500) hardnes 170-230 HB nodular graphite cast iron. Would that be fine to try out to make three small lapping plates or such?

I really envy people who has this skill. I'm convinced I need to see how someone does it right and listen reasoning before I can succeed. I have a little book and I have been reading some random tought, but the whole process appears to be like a magic to me!

Thanks,
Pekka

Offline steamer

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Re: Angle straight edge
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2012, 05:45:21 AM »
Pekka,

I learned a great deal from this book and video.

http://www.machinerepair.com/

I suspect if you pay for it, he'll ship it to you.

Additionally, E S Dyjak I am sure would ship Finland if requested.

Dave

"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
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Offline AdeV

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Re: Angle straight edge
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2012, 05:57:40 AM »
Like Eric, scraping surfaces for a precision fit is something that I've shied away from; but the time is coming when I really need to sort out my slightly banana-shaped mill table; and at some point I need to dismantle the lathe and scrape that back into true - 80 years of wear have taken their toll.

So, some simple questions:

How do you make the straight edge straight? Surely it will take an opposite curve to whatever you test it against? And if the thing you're testing against isn't dead straight, doesn't it become unrepeatable?

OK, so you've got your straight edge. I presume you mark this up with your spotting dye / micrometer blue - do you then simply place the straight edge onto the surface you're scraping, press & lift, or do you "rub" it to transfer more dye? I think I understand correctly that you would scrape the spots which got ink on the working surface, or if you scrape your straight edge you scrape the bits with no dye.

Has anyone done a video of the scraping process?


Sorry if the above are daft questions...

Dave - thanks for that link, that looks like an excellent resource...
Cheers!
Ade.
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Location: Wallasey, Merseyside. A long way from anywhere.
Occasionally: Zhengzhou, China. An even longer way from anywhere...

Offline loply

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Re: Angle straight edge
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2012, 06:03:58 AM »
1) Does anybody knows EU source for these spotting dyes (have tried to use some prussian blue oil color thinnned etc. and "Stuarts Micrometer Engineers Blue", but have difficulties with them - I believe it's just me).

I've got both "Stuart's Micrometer Engineers Blue" and Dykem HiSpot. The latter is better simply because it comes in a squeezy tube, but both work fine.

The trick is in the method you apply it to your surface plate. I presume you are applying it to a granite surface plate. It needs to be realllllly clean and you will get best results using a rubber ink roller. Roll it too thick and your entire part will go blue, too thin and not enough will (only practice will help).

Likewise if your part is greasy the transfer of dye becomes unpredictable, occasionally clean your part between scrapings with Brake Cleaner or suchlike.

Last tip I can give is to buy a decent carbide blade scraper. Though I have built one that takes HSS blanks, without a commercial Sandvik scraper to compare to I wouldn't have known what was right and what was wrong.

I've been scraping every evening for the last week or two and the above is what I've learned, anyway. I've got a few parts pretty flat now.

Cheers,
Rich

Offline steamer

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Re: Angle straight edge
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2012, 06:46:54 AM »
I use a printers brayer.  They can be had at the crafts stores.



It's the roller looking thing in the upper right.

Scraping usually is performed with a reference surface, in my case of making a straight edge, I used a granite surface plate.    There is always the 3 plate method of generating a surface but using 3 plates marked to each other in a binary pattern, the end result is a set of three surfaces that are flat ( It uses the premise that 2 things equal to a third thing must be equal to each other),  That method is kind of academic though, and a surface plate is used most often.

There are different ways of marking up a part.  I mark up from the reference.   I put a small amount of marking medium on the plate and roll it out with the brayer.   I then clean the item to be marked and gently rub it on the plate.   DO NOT PUSH DOWN...that will deform the part and you will get a false bearing.   Just slide it side to side about 1 inch about a half dozen times.

How thick to put the medium on and how to interpret the markings is important.  and takes practice.

What your looking for is bearing points.  They look like "bullseyes" where you have a shiny point in the middle and progressively heavier compound as you move radially from the shiny center.

Here's a in process shot of a lathe cross slide (my SB 9) 
See the bulls eyes?


Initially, it's not touching everywhere, so you work "areas" first to rough it down like my angle plate repair.
http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,7439.0.html
First thing I did was to sit if down on the plate and see if it rocked.....it didn't....probably should have though looking at the first mark up!
As you can see, it's touching only at the ends ....and not all the way across the part either!   So the ends are high...they're touching... while the center and left side are low.

I started by cutting these areas rather heavy cutting once, and then crossing the cut and cutting it again.   This is a double cut, and is used while "roughing" a part in.    I then checked it against the plate by rolling out the medium again, stoning the work surface and wiping it clean and then doing another rub......and keep repeating the process!    Each time through is called a "cycle"

After about 20 cycles, I got the next photo in the thread.  You will notice the center is starting to fill in and mover to the left.   PROGRESS!

After about another 20 cycles I got to the bottom photo, and the bearing has now "carried" across the part.    If I was to bring this to gage quality, I would shorten my strokes, only do single cuts and focus on just the beairng spots.  and then keep going until I had 30 or so points per square inch....LOTS OF CYCLES!

This is not a fast process....especially for an newbie such as myself!....but you can control it and there is no magic surrounding this...it's just work and the gray stuff between the ears....which this forum shows there is plenty of that!    So don't be intimidated by it.   Get your favorite piece of scrap iron out of the box and start in on making it flat....the worst that can happen is you put that piece back into the scrap box......and you will learn something!
What will get you is a part that is crowned in the middle, as that part will not mark repeatably, and will drive you nuts unless you recognize it!  Hence seeing if the part rocked in the first step.    Giving the part a gentle spin on the plate will also point out if its high in the middle or not....if it spins freely....its not flat!.    In those cases, I usually take just the center down until it bears on the outer edges of the part and then work back.  The part will show a stable mark up now and be way less annoying!
 
 :beer:

Dave
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Offline steamer

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Re: Angle straight edge
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2012, 06:55:56 AM »
Try these...

&feature=results_main





&feature=relmfu

there are others by the same author......

Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline rowbare

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Re: Angle straight edge
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2012, 10:42:24 AM »
Here is a page that explains how to make straight edges without a reference: http://home.comcast.net/~jaswensen/machines/straight_edge/straight_edge.html

Michael Morgan sells a scraping book and DVD: http://www.machinerepair.com/

as does Richard King: http://handscraping.com/. Richard often sells his DVD on eBay or you can contact him.

Both DVDs are good. If you have access to a Biax,  Richard's spends a fair bit of time on how to use one effectively.

bob

Offline steamer

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Re: Angle straight edge
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2012, 12:38:32 PM »
Thanks for that Bob...I thought I had put that link to morgan's site in.   I have that book and video...I learned a lot from it and it's well worth the money!

Dave

"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!