Author Topic: Machining a D1-4 Backplate for a ER40 Collet Chuck  (Read 15791 times)

Offline mnmetal

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Machining a D1-4 Backplate for a ER40 Collet Chuck
« on: January 29, 2012, 02:24:31 PM »
I bought a ER40 collet chuck for my lathe. Since my lathe has a D1-4 camlock spindle I also bought the back-plate to fit the spindle. Now I need to machine the back-plate to mount the chuck on. What's the best way to do this and get minimal run-out? I don't want to screw this up since I'd have to buy a new back-plate which I don't want to do, of course. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Ed


14x40 Vectrax lathe, Enco RF-45 clone mill, Millermatic 180 MIG welder.

Offline Paddy OFernichur

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Re: Machining a D1-4 Backplate for a ER40 Collet Chuck
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2012, 06:39:04 PM »
It's a fairly simply thing to do, Ed.

Mount the adapter plate to the spindle using the cam-locks. If any one of the 3 cam-lock points of the machine spindle have an individual mark, make a match-up mark on the adapter plate. This assures repeatability of position when you take the assembled unit off and put it back on later.

Measure carefully the counterbore on the back side of the collet chuck. The bore is usually just a 1/2 a millimeter or so (.020-.030") smaller than the pre-turned locating diameter on the Carefully take a light cut on the adapter plate to make the collet chuck a snug slit fit onto the mating part. Be sure to also take a light chip on the mating face to assure no face runout.

Mount the collet chuck on the now-mating adapter plate. Use a dial test indicator to check the runout of the inside tapered bore. If you detect any unacceptable amount of runout, remove the collet chuck and turn an additional amount off that adapter's mating diameter, equal to twice the measured runout. This allows you to remount the collet chuck, leaving it barely snug. Tap it into true, tighten the bolts/socket head cap screws. Remove the whole unit as an assembly, and pin them together with two or three pins. I think I see two pre-drilled holes in the adapter plate for this pinning operation.

The intent is to get the absolute minimal runout, and nail it. Sometimes the collet chuck may have a bit of manufacturing tolerance used, allowing runout between it's own back bore and the collet closing surface. The procedure described gives you one shot at hoping the collet chuck has concentric diameters, and a corrective action if it doesn't.

Offline hopefuldave

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Re: Machining a D1-4 Backplate for a ER40 Collet Chuck
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2012, 06:50:29 PM »
Hi Ed,

First of all, how much trouble do you want to go to?

If you're willing to go to a fair bit, it might be worth checking the inherent runout of the ER40 chuck first, by putting a suitable ground bar in the 4-jaw and indicating it dead on centre, then clamping the ER chuck with a right-sized collet back to front onto the bar. This'll let you apply your DTI to the back of the chuck and check for eccentricity, axial runout etc. before you commit to anything!

Assuming all's good with the chuck, the next check is the D1-4 backplate - assuming you haven't set up a camlock backplate before, what you need to do is adjust the depth of the camlock studs to get the index line on the cams between the two arrow marks when locked - if they aren't it's not locked up and can loosen in use, eek!
Once the cams are right, check the spindle to backplate fit - I usually put three strips of Rizla Silver (the lightest weight) cigarette paper on the spindle face beteen the cam sockets and clamp up, if the paper is held rather than pulls out in all three places, it's fitted correctly. If the paper pulls loose, the taper socket in the backplate's too tight - unfortunately common with Chinese D1 hardware :( This *can* be corrected with careful use of emery, a toolpost grinder would be better! It'll need to be held "bass ackwards" in a 4-jaw and indicated *dead true* bith radially and axially... IF the fag paper is gripped, remove and refit the chuck, and without locking it, the paper should pull free - this confirms that the tapers are mating correctly *before* the camlock studs pull it into an interference fit and against the face.
Once you're happy with the fit, stamp a "1" by the "1" mark on the spindle nose so you can reposition it when it's been removed.

OK, if all's good so far, onto fitting the chuck to the backplate!

Measure the recess in the back of the chuck accurately, vernier caliper will do fine, and record the size, do this twice or more ;)

mount the backplate and lock up tight, and turn the central spigot down to just (1mm / 0.040") larger than the chuck recess, then take a couple of facing cuts outwards from the spigot, finally taking a slight undercut around the spigot while turning it to size - this will ensure that any radius on the tool doesn't leave a radius that interferes with the edge of the chuck recess.

Try the fit - it should be a light (e.g. soft-faced mallet) fit, and should come apart with a wedge and mallet between the parts for the next step...

Mark through the fixing holes with a transfer punch, knock apart, drill and tap, reassemble and Robert is your parent's sibling!

Dave H. (the other one)
Rules are for the obedience of fools, and the guidance of wise men.

Offline mnmetal

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Re: Machining a D1-4 Backplate for a ER40 Collet Chuck
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2012, 06:41:39 AM »
Thanks for the advise Ken and Dave. That's about the process I had in my mind so I'm good to go. I'll take pictures as I butcher, I mean machine the back-plate.  :palm:

Ed
14x40 Vectrax lathe, Enco RF-45 clone mill, Millermatic 180 MIG welder.

Offline WillieL

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Re: Machining a D1-4 Backplate for a ER40 Collet Chuck
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2012, 07:26:23 AM »
Ed,

About how much did that chuck set you back? And what size (OD) is it?


WillieL

Midwestern USA

Offline mnmetal

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Re: Machining a D1-4 Backplate for a ER40 Collet Chuck
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2012, 08:09:00 AM »
Ed,

About how much did that chuck set you back? And what size (OD) is it?

Willie,

Here's a link to the collet chuck.

http://www.tools4cheap.net/proddetail.php?prod=er40plate

And a link to the D1-4 back-plate.

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=33210035&PMAKA=PG308-0123

I didn't pay that much for the back-plate. I got it using 20% off and free shipping codes.

Ed
14x40 Vectrax lathe, Enco RF-45 clone mill, Millermatic 180 MIG welder.

Offline WillieL

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Re: Machining a D1-4 Backplate for a ER40 Collet Chuck
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2012, 10:11:37 AM »
OK, thanks Ed. Good deal!

I just ordered that very same back plate yesterday for something else. I didn't have the 20% code though. :(
Oh well, can't win them all.   :beer:
WillieL

Midwestern USA

Offline mnmetal

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Re: Machining a D1-4 Backplate for a ER40 Collet Chuck
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2012, 04:47:54 PM »
Willie,

The OD on the chuck is about 5 3/16".

Ed
14x40 Vectrax lathe, Enco RF-45 clone mill, Millermatic 180 MIG welder.

Offline WillieL

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Re: Machining a D1-4 Backplate for a ER40 Collet Chuck
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2012, 12:06:55 PM »
Great. Thank's again Ed. Do you have collets for it yet?

I got a UPS shipping notice this morning from MSC. That scared me for a moment, because I haven't ordered anything from MSC in quite awhile.  :scratch:

Then I remembered the back plate I ordered from Enco.....   :Doh:
WillieL

Midwestern USA

Offline mnmetal

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Re: Machining a D1-4 Backplate for a ER40 Collet Chuck
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2012, 06:18:27 PM »
Willie,

No collets yet. I'm looking at getting them here: http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-300/FULL-ER40-COLLET-SET/Detail
I'm waiting on a reply from them telling me how much it would cost to ship them through the post office. Their normal shipping method is by air and for that $87 set of collets they want $94 to ship it air. That ain't happening!  :bugeye:
If that doesn't pan out then I'll probably get them from tools4cheap.net.

Ed
14x40 Vectrax lathe, Enco RF-45 clone mill, Millermatic 180 MIG welder.

Offline Davo J

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Re: Machining a D1-4 Backplate for a ER40 Collet Chuck
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2012, 09:03:05 PM »
Hi Ed, Willie, :wave: :wave:
Ed,
I have been wanting one of those myself but it costs a fortune to get them posted over here for what they are, so I think I will make mine. Currently I have the MT3 one to go into the spindle, but find it's limiting with longer pieces.

Just something to think about, with my 3 jaw I made the back plate register a few thou smaller so I can adjust it to run true at a set diameter for repetitious jobs and after set it is pretty good at all diameters. When I make a collet chuck like this I will do the same, because they are usually precision jobs done in collets and you cant always rely on the Chinese collets which is all I can afford.
If you aim for a nice tight fit and happen to machine it a bit to small, I wouldn't worry to much because it can be then adjusted to run true if needed. Just the 3 bolts on there own will be more than enough to hold any jobs that can fit in a collet, I have never had my 3 jaw move even with large jobs and deep cuts.

Willie,
CTC has both metric and true imperial collets as well. He will ship by sea instead of air but I think he likes the order to be bigger to use that shipping method. He will probably still ship it that way for you but it will take a month or more to get there. A few of the guys over here have him ship by sea and it usually costs 1/3 of air shipping and the more items you buy the more you save.

Dave

Offline WillieL

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Re: Machining a D1-4 Backplate for a ER40 Collet Chuck
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2012, 10:07:32 PM »
Hi Dave,

I'm not looking to buy myself. I was just curious about what Ed had worked out for himself. That is just one of those items that will get added to my wish list for the future. I've already spent too much money I don't have, and don't need to dig myself in any deeper at this point.  :palm:

I'm going to let Ed blase the trail here, and I'll just take notes for future reference.   :D

WillieL

Midwestern USA

Offline Davo J

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Re: Machining a D1-4 Backplate for a ER40 Collet Chuck
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2012, 11:22:15 PM »
Hi Willie,
I was just talking about the collets from CTC, but since you mention it they have MT and strait shank ER40 chucks for $20 odd dollars and it probably wouldn't cost much if any to have it shipped with the collets. This way you would only need to press fit the collet chuck into a back plate.

The ER- MT chucks are great for the tailstock as well. My biggest drill chuck is 16mm so I use collets to hold any drill bits that are bigger than 16mm.

Dave

Offline WillieL

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Re: Machining a D1-4 Backplate for a ER40 Collet Chuck
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2012, 11:45:37 PM »
That is an excellent idea Dave.   :clap:

I happen to have a 3/4" (19mm) drill chuck that came with my drill press, that handles all my needs for larger drills. I can swap it between the the lathe and the drill press when needed. If I was to order a set of those collets, I would get them with the R8 chuck as well so I could use them on my mill too.

But I don't want to hijack Ed's thread here - so I just be waiting for the pictures of fitting the chuck on his lathe. Because as we all know......   :worthless:

 :beer:
WillieL

Midwestern USA

Offline Davo J

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Re: Machining a D1-4 Backplate for a ER40 Collet Chuck
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2012, 12:15:40 AM »
Thanks for the advise Ken and Dave. That's about the process I had in my mind so I'm good to go. I'll take pictures as I butcher, I mean machine the back-plate.  :palm:

Ed

I agree Willie,
Come on Ed, we are all waiting on you, LOL
 :worthless:

Dave

Offline mnmetal

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Re: Machining a D1-4 Backplate for a ER40 Collet Chuck
« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2012, 06:43:38 AM »
Hi Willie,
I was just talking about the collets from CTC, but since you mention it they have MT and strait shank ER40 chucks for $20 odd dollars and it probably wouldn't cost much if any to have it shipped with the collets. This way you would only need to press fit the collet chuck into a back plate.

The ER- MT chucks are great for the tailstock as well. My biggest drill chuck is 16mm so I use collets to hold any drill bits that are bigger than 16mm.

Dave

Hi Dave,

That was me, not Willie that is looking at getting collets from CTC Tools.

Ed
14x40 Vectrax lathe, Enco RF-45 clone mill, Millermatic 180 MIG welder.

Offline mnmetal

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Re: Machining a D1-4 Backplate for a ER40 Collet Chuck
« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2012, 06:57:42 AM »

I agree Willie,
Come on Ed, we are all waiting on you, LOL
 :worthless:

Dave

It's going to be awhile before I get started on this project. I like to start planning a project before I actually get started on it to make sure I have all of the tools and supplies I'll need to complete the job. I have at least one project ahead of this one.

Ed
14x40 Vectrax lathe, Enco RF-45 clone mill, Millermatic 180 MIG welder.

Offline WillieL

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Re: Machining a D1-4 Backplate for a ER40 Collet Chuck
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2012, 07:39:29 AM »
Been there, done that, Ed. And I'm sure I'll do it again...   :lol:
WillieL

Midwestern USA