Author Topic: Surface plate alternatives  (Read 16668 times)

Offline Ross

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Surface plate alternatives
« on: January 02, 2012, 06:30:32 PM »
Hi everyone,

I'm thinking about getting a surface plate as it'll be nessecary to help me mark out bits and bobs.

But I don't fancy paying top dollar for the posh granite ones. Has anyone out there got an alternative that does the job just as well?

Thanks

Ross

Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

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Re: Surface plate alternatives
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2012, 06:49:34 PM »
Ross -- The question is, what is the accuracy (or, more correctly, inaccuracy) you can live with?  My "big plate" was a 36 X 72 inch Grade B plate that was broken in transit.  I had the local "monument" (read: "gravestone") shop cut off the broken edges and now have a 32 X 50 inch plate that is (as of the last time I measured it) flat within 75 millionths.  I keep an old slab of marble sold to me by a different "monument shop" that is (approximately) 24 inches square and 1.25 inches thick that generally reads out as being flat within (about) .0015 inch after a bit of lapping.  I paid somewhere in the $20 range for that piece of marble in 1983.  An acquaintance of mine has a chunk of well flycut 1 inch thick AL 6061-T6 plate that measured in within .002 FIM a bit more than a year ago.

If you are merely "striking lines," then your required accuracy is relative broad.  If you are measuring runout with a tenths indicator, then you need greater accuracy.  Mounting can make up for a multitude of sins.  ???

Offline Bluechip

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Re: Surface plate alternatives
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2012, 07:21:53 PM »
Hi everyone,

I'm thinking about getting a surface plate as it'll be nessecary to help me mark out bits and bobs.

But I don't fancy paying top dollar for the posh granite ones. Has anyone out there got an alternative that does the job just as well?

Thanks

Ross

How big do you want/need ??

I think I may have a Myford plate somewhere in my heap.
It's not very big IIRC. 7x5 maybe. Inches, that is ...

Not sure whether I still have it or not. If it will do for you, and it's still here, you can have it.
Never used it for years, got a 12" SQ. plate ..

BC

Just checked .. still here .. it is a 7x5" with a wooden top and a GENUINE Myford cardboard sarcophagus ..

BC
I have a few modest talents. Knowing what I'm doing isn't one of them.

Offline PeterE

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Re: Surface plate alternatives
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2012, 02:50:01 AM »
I made myself a really cheap one for starters - and it still in operation.

I found that those polished granite floor tiles are actually really flat. They are 12" square and the angles are good. So, I got me one of those and mixed some tile cement and filled a shallow box, tile on top and left to dry. And here it is:



If you don't get the level right from start it is easy to adjust with a couple of adjustable feet (or suitable no of washers  :coffee: )

It works really good, far better than I anticipated actually.  :D

Oh, and another idea may be to go to town on a square piece of 1/4" glass. The modern float glass is also extremely flat.

Well, just a few ideas.

BR

/Peter
Always at the edge of my abilities, too often beyond ;-)

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Surface plate alternatives
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2012, 04:19:22 AM »
Ross.
It depends how far you want to advance in your new hobby.

Perfect for my level. I use a 12" granite floor tile, from Wickes.

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline andyf

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Re: Surface plate alternatives
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2012, 04:25:54 AM »
I've read that leftovers from granite kitchen worktops, in particular the bit cut out for the sink, can be used, but I don't know whether they are really up to the job.

Andy
Sale, Cheshire
I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline SKIPRAT

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Re: Surface plate alternatives
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2012, 04:43:00 AM »
I use a granite kitchen worktop saver that i got from Wilko's  it seems resonably flat to me and does the job.

Cheers Paul
One Mans Junk Is Another Man's Treasure G6FOW

Offline arnoldb

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Re: Surface plate alternatives
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2012, 07:13:24 AM »
Cheapskate that I am, I just had a bit of 400x600x12mm safety glass cut 2 years ago - I also got the glass shop to chamfer the sides:


It's been doing a fine job for me so far for marking out...

 :beer:, Arnold

Offline Ross

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Re: Surface plate alternatives
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2012, 03:25:04 PM »


How big do you want/need ??

I think I may have a Myford plate somewhere in my heap.
It's not very big IIRC. 7x5 maybe. Inches, that is ...

Not sure whether I still have it or not. If it will do for you, and it's still here, you can have it.
Never used it for years, got a 12" SQ. plate ..

BC

Just checked .. still here .. it is a 7x5" with a wooden top and a GENUINE Myford cardboard sarcophagus ..

BC

That plate sounds ok for what I need, I'm only marking little bits of stock so it should come in very handy, I'll send you a PM.  Thanks!  :mmr:

Thanks everyone else for the tips, if I need a bigger one in the future I know what to do.

Offline Bluechip

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Re: Surface plate alternatives
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2012, 04:32:30 PM »
OK Ross ... here is a pic.

Needs a lick over with Scotchbrite, got a bit of gunge on it.

Greasy stuff.

BC
I have a few modest talents. Knowing what I'm doing isn't one of them.

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Surface plate alternatives
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2012, 12:59:42 PM »
Hi Ross.
I've been rummaging, in long forgotten corners..

Nice little Browne & Sharpe scribing block, 55 x 40mm base........




It's been with me, since Adam were a lad. Needs a scriber needle, and pivot screw clamp.

Should go nicely with your little surface plate.......

Yours, if you can use it.  :thumbup:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline jim

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Re: Surface plate alternatives
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2012, 01:11:32 PM »
if i'd thought it through, i'd have never tried it

Offline TroyO

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Re: Surface plate alternatives
« Reply #12 on: January 07, 2012, 10:18:05 PM »
Not sure it's an "Alternative" LOL, but if you watch the sales you can get a "real" one for less than you might think.

I recently got one on sale from www.use-enco.com for $45.95, minus %15 code ($38.21) and free shipping (on a $99 order).... 12X18X3 Grade "B" which is supposed to be good to .0002" (Although to be honest I only have a .0005" DTI).

Of course, I just HAD to throw a couple extra items in there to make it $99.... you know, to get the sale price. ;-) Right?

They run sales on the surface plates and free shipping codes every couple of months.

Offline AndyB

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Re: Surface plate alternatives
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2012, 05:38:06 AM »
I too have got a thick piece of glass. I have no way of accurately measuring it but set a DTI up in the scribing block and slid it around, not enough run out to worry me, I am not building atom bombs or interplanetary rockets.

I have to ask though, if the plate has to be that accurate how do you measure the scriber height to that accuracy?

How can you tell if you are 1 thou out on the tip of the scriber?

Andy
Waveney Valley, Suffolk/Norfolk Border

Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: Surface plate alternatives
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2012, 05:41:45 AM »
How can you tell if you are 1 thou out on the tip of the scriber?

Andy

I simply can't, Andy!  :scratch:

That's why I use a granite floor tile........  :D

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline Ross

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Re: Surface plate alternatives
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2012, 10:23:30 AM »
OK Ross ... here is a pic.

Needs a lick over with Scotchbrite, got a bit of gunge on it.

Greasy stuff.

BC

The plate looks perfect  :thumbup:

Thanks to David for posting the scriber block too!

Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

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Re: Surface plate alternatives
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2012, 01:50:56 PM »
I too have got a thick piece of glass. I have no way of accurately measuring it but set a DTI up in the scribing block and slid it around, not enough run out to worry me, I am not building atom bombs or interplanetary rockets.
Hey, lighten up.  The only interplanetary rocket I've (helped) build is the Atlas V -- if you count the Moon as being a planet and launch phase as counting as interplanetary.  The rest have been orbital vehicles.  However, I did design and build the vector (steering) thruster fuel pump for the transfer vehicle (which counts as interplanetary by any man's standard) carrying Curiosity from Earth orbit to Mars orbit.  That was pretty much a +.002/-.000 or +.000/-.002 assembly.  Surface plates were only used for DTI measurement comparisons.

Atom bombs, on the other hand, are (generally) +/-.005 assemblies.  It's the 8 microinch surface finish that's the killer.  Hydrogen bombs require closer tolerances.  ;-)

Ignoring gauge work done for the National Bureau of Standards (an entirely different world from anywhere else), firearms and high-precision tools are what require me to have the equipment I have.  That's why I asked Ross what accuracy he needed.  The answer to that question sets the stage for a real and practical solution.  Back in the dark ages when I was an apprentice, precision hole locations were made using tooling buttons and gauge blocks or adjustable parallels.  There are numerous solutions that improve accuracy without costing an arm and a leg -- if you need them.

My first reference plate was a carefully reworked (20 X 40 inch) butcher block used to layout guitar and lute components.  It was visually flat by comparison to a 48 inch straight edge -- which probably meant flat within .015 FIM overall.  It served me well and was wonderful!

Offline TroyO

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Re: Surface plate alternatives
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2012, 02:12:36 PM »
By the by... I recently watched Rudy Kouhoupts "Using layout tools" and he mentions having flexible surface plates (Like plate glass or thin granite tile) on a "floating surface" such as a piece of carpet. Something with a bit of give all over to make sure there isn't a high spot warping things  a bit.

A lot of the surface gage scribing is carrying a height from one feature or part to another and scribing the line to match.

For absolute measures you can put your scriber tip on top of a stack of wrung together gage blocks that add up to the total you want. (On my "I want some" list.)

Using a height gauge with a scriber is the other way if you want an absolute measure.... or so I hear, LOL. (also still in my "I want one" list.)



Offline AndyB

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Re: Surface plate alternatives
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2012, 02:30:21 PM »
Hi Lew,

I am a country boy; most people round here are pleased if it is in the same field! :lol:

Andy
Waveney Valley, Suffolk/Norfolk Border

Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

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Re: Surface plate alternatives
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2012, 12:28:47 PM »
I am a country boy; most people round here are pleased if it is in the same field! :lol:
Hey Andy -- That's what my friend who went into crop dusting tells me...  ;-)

One of the companies for which I did a lot of work in the 70's and 80's was the Rocket Research Company (now divvied up between Aerojet General and General Dynamics).  They passed out bumper stickers one year that read, What if you really are a rocket scientist and you still don't understand it?  I wasn't there when they passed them out and still want one!

Offline foozer

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Re: Surface plate alternatives
« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2012, 04:04:12 PM »

 What if you really are a rocket scientist and you still don't understand it? 


You go into management

Robert
Ignorance is Bliss, thus I aim for Perfection

Offline Lew_Merrick_PE

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Re: Surface plate alternatives
« Reply #21 on: January 11, 2012, 11:54:05 AM »
What if you really are a rocket scientist and you still don't understand it? 
You go into management
And how many managers have you run into who can understand either momentum or differentials?