Silver and Hall marking - incorporate the clock?

[raynerd]

Hi, has anyone on here ever made anything out of sterling silver?

I`ve always had an interest and desire to have a sponsors stamp and register with the assay office here in the UK. I believe the stamp can be purchased for about £70 but you have that for life and to register for 10 years(!) is very reasonable. I totally understand that this is not necessary and would work out very expensive for both the silver and the process of hall marking but I`m curious if anyone has gone through the process and any advice or info you could give me.

I`m considering trying to introduce the use of a silver part somewhere in the clock just to fulfill this idea but I can`t even imagine yet what I would make. I`ve considered the hands which are at the top of my likely list at present. A bezel around the rim face would be nice but I think too big and too awkward to make. I`m sure I can come up with something!

This could all be a pipe dream but I`d like to hear anyones input.

Chris  

[PTsideshow]

IMO, it would only be to add something extra that might be important to you. It would be pointless to have only one part Sterling Silver @ this time Silver is going for $41.54 or 25.50 pounds per ounce. can't see where it would make the clock work better. Other than bragging rights.
Most jewelry supply houses sell the stamps and the number stamps for silver and gold in the US, no registration required.
on line site for hallmarks, makers marks and all things of that nature this is the best site for your kinds of questions including a forum that would be able to tell you, the in and outs of the registering. 

Personally I have only used my sterling and number stamp but once. And that was for a real jerk of a customer, who brought me some junk silver jewelry that had no marks. But tested as sterling was melted down and made into a very nasty looking broach type pin. She insisted on the piece being stamped. I really pissed her off when I told her not to be offended when the scrap jewelry dealer test is for it's content.

Fine silver is 999 parts per 1,000
High Fine is 999.5 parts per 1,000
Sterling is 925 parts per 1,000   with copper being the remaining 75 parts

The legal standard in the British Commonwealth is called Britannia Silver 95.83 parts with 4.17 copper At one time it was the Jewelry standard used in England to discourage melting down of coins sterling of the realm(1697-1719)
There are a number of other alloys used a couple of coin silver,and tarnish free silver in addition to Argentinimum
 

[mike os]

keep me updated on this 

[75Plus]

Chris, Have you considered adding silver to the pendulum bob. Perhaps the friend that engraved the sun dial could add some decoration then you could hall mark it.

Joe

[raynerd]

PTsideshow - thanks for the input. Yes, I 100% understand that it isn`t necessary for any parts and equally I can tell you that I`m never going to sell the clock so as far as having it hallmarked for authenticity, this isn`t needed either as I`ll know it is silver! Your first sentence is correct, it is something I`ve wanted to do for a long time and therefore it is just something for me, I suppose you could call it, "Bragging rights", just something extra to mention when people see my clock.

MikeOS - yes, any update will be on here or on my clockbuild thread. Certainly nothing will happen for another month or two.

75Plus - that is really great idea. In theory I could cut a shallow grove and replace it with a silver inlay in the pendulum bob or weight. I still like the idea of doing the hands but I think the weight could work against me. Not sure how I would inlay the silver piece into the steel bar if I went with your idea.

Regards
Chris

[PTsideshow]

Since it is just for added bling in the clock, You may want to think about building up a bezel ring around the clock face or other flat parts.
I don't know if this company ships to the UK, But it may be of interest for you to look and see what the have available in the silver, along with other base metals ,wire stamping etc.
metalliferous Bezel wires stamped flat wire strip

metalliferous silver home page
All are PDF downloadable catalog pages, They do have an amazing amount of metals for modeling and jewelery and clock making. Or MadModdering, in addition to tools and other stuff you never knew you needed!

Here in the states hallmarking has a different meaning then in your country. In general hallmarking is the same as a Makers Mark In the US since there currently is no law in the US requiring a Quality mark. The current standard is the National Gold and Silver Marketing Act the standards is 921 parts per thousand or .915fineness with solder taken into account.
Plus if you quality stamp it it either has to have a registered trademark or makers mark, which if it doesn't (registered trademark or makers mark) the parties that produce the article is responsible, for producing fraudulently marked goods.

And as you know, Silver, Mexican Sliver,German Silver, Indian Silver or any other names or markings are no guarantee that there is any silver content in the article. Since German Silver is the old name for nickle silver, which has no silver content at all.
Silver from other western countries are marked with the parts per thousand numbers to denote the fineness of the silver content.

The US and the old British Empire countries use the sterling standard. All though your registration of hallmarks etc. is more rigidly controlled and followed. The hallmark site in the above link is the best site on the net for information on the matter.
 

[raynerd]

Hi PTsideshow, yes, I believe our direct meaning of the term hallmarking is that the term "hall" refers to the assay hall in which the "mark" was stamped to guarantee purity.  My understanding is that once I have a sponsors stamp, I then register for 10 years for £70. I can then drive to the assay hall (about 25 miles away for me) and wait while they test a sample of the metal and if they find it to be 995/1000 parts silver, will stamp it with the relevent marks.

I really wouldn`t have a clue how to start building up a bezel but in retrospect, I do think that perhaps this would be the nicest parts to do. I`ll have to have a read about it. I`ve done some googling and other than making jewelry, I can`t find much on working with silver. I`ve seen a few vids of people working on making spoons and that is about it.

I`ll keep searching and let you know how I get on. Of course with the cost of the silver being so high, I need to ensure I`m going to be able to make the parts I want before I go any further with the idea. Anyway...lots of time yet. I`m not going to attempt this until the clock is near finished.

Chris

[PTsideshow]

All a bezel is is like the bezel that holds the watch or clock crystal in place. In jewelry it would hold the stone in place. I guess I should have said building up a multilevel silver ring around the clock face. Either with half round or assorted sized twisted wire. Using the bezel wire/strip or the open stamped wire. with the strip or twisted wire you can always do it up in copper to get an idea of what it would look like around the clock face edge. It would be a matter of doing a very clean silver solder job around build up sections. Plus there wouldn't be the outlay for the cost of the silver to find out you don't like it  Brass wire and gas welding rod and strip would work too.

Most of the jewelry supply houses here in the states sell it by the foot or ounce and they all have a pretty good idea of how much silver is in each inch let alone each foot. I'm sure they deal it the same way in your area.

[andyf]

Chris, if you can find some and have some way of melting them down, pre-1919 coins are sterling silver. 1919 to 1947 were about 50%.

How about finding a friendly working jeweller or silversmith who will submit the part for you, or are you intent on making up a stamp to impress your own initials/logo as part of the hallmark?

Andy

[raynerd]

Andy, yes I realise I`m being a bit of a arse, but it is always something I`ve fancied doing; I want my own sponsers stamp! To be honest, it is for that reason I`m even considering it, otherwise I wouldn`t bother. Equally, I`d like to make the part myself or at least under instruction.
Thanks for the info about the coins. I do believe I actually could melt them but I don`t have a press mill to flatten it neatly back down to shape. Maybe hammering would work!?

PTsideshow - there is a video on youtube showing someone making a bezel for around a ring stone as you mentioned. The idea about the copper is a good one and cheap to just see if I`ll like the design.

Thanks for all the suggestions and info...any more welcome. I`m actually leaning towards really wanting this to happen and think it possibly could. Mind you, I`d probably have to wait a few months for my birthday to register with the Assay Hall and afford the silver!

[PTsideshow]

I you have a jewelers saw frame, and a bench cutting pin, (wood piece with a V notch in from the end to make the cutting easier by supporting both sides of the material being cut. Best case/easiest/cheapest would be come up with a fancy pierced hands design. Would be the focal point and you could have your makers mark on the surface.  
Don't know what restrictions they have on using your markers mark over there, on this side people use them on everthing including hand forged blacksmithing items.
 

Depending on the size of the clock face a 1"x3" 25mmx75mm piece of silver, would probably work for you.

[raynerd]

PTsideshow - I was thinking a nicely pierced set of hands would look good but I`m not sure I could bring myself to cut out all that sterling silver from the gaps!! 

[PTsideshow]

Depending on the design , of the cut outs you end up with a small nice pair of sterling earrings for somebody. Circles and half moom shapes lend them self nicely to danglely  style drop either stacked or individually.Here is a set that Somebody on another site used for a model of 640mm and 960mm hands welded up from flat,strip and round forged stock for an old large clock face now used as wall decoration focal point in a restaurant, The hands are placed in the position like the name of the restaurant something like five 0 five or something close.


You can minimize the saw filings/waste by careful thought and design which can be done in file folder card stock first! 

[krv3000]

HI just my bit as well as your stamp ther will be the purety stamp also a date stamp if you look at any old gold rin or silver orniment ther is 3 stamps 1 one is the maker 2 one is the purety of the metel ie 9 caret  19 caret  and then a date leter 

[raynerd]

Hi krv3000, thanks for the info. Just from reading the Assay Hall information documents on their website, I believe the compulsory ones are actually Sponsors Mark, Assay Hall and Purity standard Mark (995 for Sterling Silver).
The date mark I believe is now optional and I`m pretty sure the fine purity mark is also optional.

Chris 

[Jere]

Hi Chris,

Maybe you could make the dial from silver sheet, that would be an impressive piece of metal.   

I know the laws are (or at least were) quite different than they are here in the USA regarding official hallmarks. 
You could always have a stamp made to your own design or fancy.  Provided it is for your own private use I can not see how it would be an issue.  You can use it to stamp tools and other things made in your shop.
Just Google "custom steel stamp" and there are numerous companies that produce stamps from drawings.

I didn't see this link above, it may be useful as well for more legal/historical info in the UK.
http://www.thegoldsmiths.co.uk/assay-office/

Jere

[raynerd]

Hello Jere

Very good to hear from you. I keep checking up on your progess on your website and all looks good. The fingerplate you are making is really interesting as I expect it will be my next tool I make before I start any future projects.

I did consider the dial but it would be a very large piece of silver needed only for me to cut out the centre to leave a rim! I expect I could sell this center piece to reclaim some of its value but I`m not sure where.

Your link is very useful. I have been using it. There are 4 assay offices currently running in UK; London (Goldsmiths Hall), Sheffield, Birminhgam and Edinburgh. Your link I believe if for the London Goldsmiths Hall. Since I live closer to Birmingham or Sheffield so I have been using there sites more but the information on all of them is near identical and the costs very similar. I have weighed up various options and considered just stamping myself. The issue is that here in the UK, it seems the stamps are much more expensive to make - £100+  . It only costs £70 to make the stamp going through the Assay Hall and then £60 to register for 15 years! Each item to get officially stamped is then only a £1 or £2 maximum. It becomes nearly as economical to have them officially done and then at least they are legal to sell if the need arised in future. With that initial costing out of the way, I can stamp any item for the next 15 years for only a few pounds - I`m pretty sure it is only £30 to re-register when the time comes.

Does anyone know if I could purchase a custom size and shape (a rim) of sterling silver from anywhere in the UK ? Or anyone who would purchase the sterling silver back off me once I`ve cut the centre piece out? I don`t think I could afford to purchase the full size stock without the centre removed! That is one of the reasons the hands are at the top of my list due to the lower price of the stock metal.

[eidbi]

Hi,
At one time quite a few years ago I made jewellery from silver and had my makers mark, just my initials but it was registered in the Assay office in Dublin.
If you sell or barter anything in silver in the UK and Ireland it must be hallmarked. The items are stamped with your mark and then you send them to the assay office. They test for the quality of silver or gold and if it up to the quality of 92.5% or the relevant carat for the gold they hallmark them with the office, the quality and a year mark. If it or they are not up to quality they destroy the pieces and give them back to you. I understand that they cut them up but I have no personal experience thankfully. There are exceptions to the rules, for instance I have been told that if the stone/s are of greater value than the silver or gold then hallmarking isn't necessary. This explains why engagement rings are not hallmarked and wedding ones are. The rules for the UK and Ireland now I believe are very similar since they were the same at one time.

When you are getting your makers mark made you can get it made quite big as most of the things your are talking about are quite big. But you can have more than one. I have two, one for rings which has a semicircle in the shaft of the punch, and another slightly bigger and straight for anything else.
Regards,
Hamilton