Author Topic: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd  (Read 30796 times)

Offline raynerd

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Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« on: April 13, 2011, 02:31:35 AM »
I was reading the "taig users" yahoo group recently where I came across a post in which someone had purchased a taig mill and lathe for the purpose of building a fire piston. Having the idea that this was some fancy engine, I quickly did a google search to find one. To my surprise this was not an engine but an instrument used to generate lit tinder for use out in the wild...and what an amazing method it used. It is simply a closed ended cylinder with tight fitting piston with tinder at the end of the piston. When the piston is rammed quickly into the cylinder, the quick compression of the air generates enough heat to light the tinder!

Here is a quick video of it working with the pictures included:


A good googling on the topic found quite a few "make your own fire piston" instructions, but all using easy to come-by materials. So using the measurements from these I set about making my own. The length is 4.25" and the bore is 10mm (nothing like mixed measurements!). This was only a quick project, probably 3-4 hours machining but I struggled to get a good bore due to the fact I didn`t have a long enough reamer or boring bar. Still, a standard 10mm drill has worked with an o-ring to seal it well. This was all made up as I went along so there are a few mistakes and it hasn`t been polished!








The head of the piston was originally brass. You will see that although this fire piston works, making the bore 10mm is a little wide and so the force needed to compress the piston is quite high. A little too high for compressing it in your hands (I have actually done it but it hurt my palm!!) It is much easier to hold the cylinder and slam it down on something hard. I wanted to put a little cap on it anyway to hold some tinder, so I`ve made the cap out of steel. I guess it could be replaced as well. All this being said, if I was to make it again, I`d make the bore narrower so that less force is needed to be applied to compress the cylinder - so a steel cap would not be needed.



1/8" hole in the bottom; this is where the tinder sits.  The little square is the piece of char cotton I`ll be using as tinder.



The hole filled with char cotton.



Well, I should have cleaned it up a bit before taking this photo but this is the end cap. This provides a solid top, a pocket to store some char cloth and an extra washer to be used on the piston if needed. I`d make this bigger if I did it again.



The char cloth I made using a 100% cotton bed sheet, cut into four 3" square sheets and put into a metal travel sweat tin. The tin had a small hole in the top (1mm) and was placed on a camping stove for 20 mins until all the smoke coming through the top had stopped, removed from the heat and sealed the hole. Lots of info on the net regarding char cloth. I was told that using char cloth is a "must" while testing a fire piston but I believe other tinders will work in it.  


Char cloth lit and burning away...!

« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 04:09:19 AM by craynerd »

lordedmond

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Re: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2011, 02:37:43 AM »
cotton wool will work also


I have not made one but I have seen a glass walled one ,with a steel plunger fitted with a '0' ring work with normal cotton wool ( not gun cotton  :) )



Stuart

Offline raynerd

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Re: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2011, 02:42:00 AM »
Hi Stuart

I haven`t tried cotton wool yet but I have also heard it works just fine. I was told however that char cotton gets best results and so for 20 minutes work to make some I thought I`d make the effort and take the advice. I have to admit, it does work very well with it. I finish it at 11pm last night and so I`ve not really had much time to experiment!

They really are amazing little things... I couldn`t believe it when I got a glowing ember!

Offline sbwhart

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Re: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2011, 02:47:28 AM »
Thats interesting Chris  :thumbup:

Thanks for showing

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Offline saw

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Re: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2011, 04:04:41 AM »
I have never seen something like this thanks for showing  :thumbup:
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Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2011, 04:17:23 AM »
On no account put any flammable liquids into it to help things along.

They will diesel very easily, and can easily punch a neat hole thru your hand or any other part of your body that gets in the way, as the two parts seperate at high speed.


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Offline BillTodd

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Re: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2011, 07:27:25 AM »
Nice :)

I wonder if a ceramic piston and cylinder head  would help? (lower thermal conductivity) and perhaps a hollow push rod to carry some extra tinder cloth.

Bill
« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 07:29:08 AM by BillTodd »
Bill

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Re: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2011, 08:19:48 AM »
Bill - I know they make these very often out of wood and there are a few people who I have seen have made them from metal like this one. Bill, what do you mean by a cylinder head; how would this be fitted?

I must admit, there is a very smart one on youtube under firepen. I`m interested in this as a science principle - I really didn`t think the concept would work! I can imagine the heat generated would ignite a gas but never thought it would ignite a solid fuel!

This looks excellent as a demo...


« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 08:21:30 AM by craynerd »

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2011, 09:53:40 AM »
Hi all, the only time I have ever seen this before, was a demonstration by a native, I believe it was in Australia, with a carved wood form, which was technology handed down "forever" according to the person demonstrating it, and it had always been their tribal method of lighting fires, the only one in use at the time.  The man demonstrating it used fluff from some seed pod for tinder, and had a fire going before the technical expert could light one with a match.  I believe the demonstration was in the late sixties, or early seventies, and it had just been discovered by our modern cultural analysts, with nothing but amazement at the means, and no explanation as to how it was derived, just the jarring fact it worked, and had been in use for hundreds of generations.  I was a boy Scout at the time, and busy with flint and steel with dryer lint for tinder, and made a model which worked, exactly according to the design explicated by the native.  If I remember right, it was a piece of wood which grows by water and has thick bark which can be removed much like making a whistle, while wet, and yet when dry, fits like a cylinder over a piston.  The method was to put the tinder in a divot in the end of the stick, hold it upright, and slip the bark/cylinder with a plug in the end, over the stick, and forcefully slam the cylinder down over the stick, then pull it up to reveal the glowing tinder.  I would say I saw it back in the late sixties or early seventies and needless to say, was amazed and flabbergasted at the extraordinary display of ingenuity it was.  thanks much for reminding me of this long forgotten idea. :bugeye: :beer:  Cheers, Jack

Offline dbvandy

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Re: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2011, 10:26:05 AM »
UN... REAL......



Thanks for sharing... will be making one today...

BTW...  $90 on ebay.....  say wha?????????

http://cgi.ebay.com/Survival-Pen-Fire-Piston-Ferrocerium-Rod-/300537997639?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f975e947

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« Last Edit: April 13, 2011, 10:29:24 AM by dbvandy »
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Offline raynerd

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Re: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2011, 12:41:23 PM »
Doug - that is the youtube video I was trying to find again to post on here!! It really is amazing isn`t it. That is an excellent size and works much better than mine. I think the piston is too big on mine at 10mm dia. Quite a bit of force is needed to generate the heat required hence me having to slam it on the floor rather than just in my hands. I`ve just been taking another look at my fire piston again and I can`t get cotton wool to ignite. When I pull out the piston the cotton wool is all singed, so clearly it is near but not quite enough heat is being generated. That being said, I just blew a lit piece of char cloth on the my cotton wool and it would even spread into it, so maybe the cotton wool is no good!??  :coffee:


Madjack - it is interesting how long this method has apparently been used. Great story!


I have to be honest, I of course had to oblige the fire lighting gods and try and make a fire from my glowing char cloth ember - still no luck!! I`m obviously not cut out to be a boy scout :( :doh:




Offline BillTodd

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Re: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2011, 12:56:35 PM »
Quote
Bill, what do you mean by a cylinder head; how would this be fitted?
By head, I just mean the capping at the end of the cylinder.

I was thinking machinable ceramic like Bonzo's(forget the name, sorry)  lodge spark plug (either here or on the HMEM site)
Bill

Offline spuddevans

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Re: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2011, 01:56:42 PM »
Well this is a very neat little project, I think I have found my next project :proj:


Thanks very much for sharing Chris :thumbup:


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Offline j45on

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Re: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2011, 02:08:08 PM »
Thanks for sharing Chris I had never seen one before  :thumbup:
I shall have to add this to my  :proj: list   :nrocks:
Jason

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Re: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2011, 04:10:22 PM »
I have a fire piston I built using 5/16" steel rod and a piece of tube that it fit in which I capped on the end with an aluminum plug.

I like yours with the storage cap for the char, that is genius. One change I made on mine was to use a slot through the hole on the end of the piston, it makes taking the char out much easier. Never had any luck with regular cotton either.

Thanks for sharing.

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2011, 12:18:12 PM »
By the way Chris, in case it didn't come across, I really appreciated your reminding me of this, and you have definitely inspired me to do something about it, as I did back when I was a Boy Scout, and first heard of this.  It was absolutely amazing to me then, both the method, and the fact it was discovered/invented long before writing, and that it is so easy to replicate.  This is one I'm doing today. :lol: I can't tell you how much I will be enjoying it over the next few weeks.  :bow: :beer: Cheers, Jack

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Re: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2011, 04:01:20 PM »
Nice one madjack - I`m pleased that is has reminded you. Like you, I was totally blown away by this lighting a solid fuel and being first used many years I expect before they knew how it was actually working.

I look forward to seeing some of your fire piston build log pictures!!

Chris

Offline daz

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Re: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2012, 09:21:56 AM »
Time to revive an old thread!

I have been interested in these things for a couple of years but have been struggling to come up with bore dimensions to make it easier to light. After seing one on Chris' website it rekindled my enthusiasm. I have tried many different bore diameters and lengths and have eventually found something that works without too much force and is reliable.
 I know! :worthless:

This is both parts

And this is the O ring seal, you will notice a wee dent and think to youself "careless" But there is a reason it is there, I was finding it pretty difficult to change the O rings and so knocked a small dent in it to allow me to get a pointy thing in and underneath it.

You will also notice that instead of using the normal recess for holding the tinder/charcloth I have drilled through and then slotted the top away. This holds the tinder better and also gives a much larger surface area to be lit.
For such ancient and supposedly primative technology it works a treat, I can get a fire lit almost every time.
It was seemingly discovered by explorers in the 1850's and is thought to have been around for as long as people have been using blow guns for hunting. They seem to think that the hunters noticed their blow sticks getting hot in use and a lightbulb, or star in this case, was switched on in someones head. The truth is that nobody will ever know where they came from but they sure are pretty clever.
For more info:
http://wildwoodsurvival.com/survival/fire/firepiston/index.html

If anyone wants some pretty poor drawings with dimension just send me a pm with your email address.

daz
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Offline raynerd

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Re: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2012, 06:48:40 PM »
Nice going Daz!! Glad it worked for you. Just curious, how did you go about cutting a straight bore for the cylinder. It is so long and narrow...!

Offline Scuba1

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Re: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2012, 07:21:45 PM »
I have a long 8mm reamer and long drill for it as well .........I see a mini project coming up as there is some brass and stainless floating about in my cupboard that wants to be turned into something


ATB

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Re: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2012, 07:29:00 PM »
I was only looking at these the other week and decided I'd have a go. (then got hooked on glow in the dark stuff!)

Did you know that it is thought that the demonstration of a fire piston was what inspired Rudolf Diesel to create the prototypes of the diesel engine?   The things you hear on QI!


Still... I'm certainly going to make one. Any info on dimensions to save all the testing would be nice Daz  :poke:    :thumbup:





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Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2012, 08:53:10 PM »
Yup. I forgot about this one. I am up for giving it a go!

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Offline daz

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Re: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2012, 04:36:07 AM »
Nice going Daz!! Glad it worked for you. Just curious, how did you go about cutting a straight bore for the cylinder. It is so long and narrow...!
I have some extra long drill bits but no reamer and found that if I started off 0.5mm undersize then followed very slowly with the correct size it have a decent finish on the bore, but I still had to drill from both ends. After a while though I eventually cheated! I found some cut offs of aluminium tubing we use on our compressed air system in the factory, it just so happens that it has the correct ID. It is covered in a blue plasticky coating which takes a while to sand off but it has a very smooth bore and is perfect for the job. Will post up dimensions shortly

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Offline NeoTech

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Re: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2012, 01:08:04 PM »
Fire pistons is wicked cool - the thing is, it isnt really that new even though it have got plenty of attention the last few years. =)

In my younger years one of the adults in my scout group used a brass fire piston he kept as a necklace for all firestarting. It looked old and worn, so i guess he must had for quite a while. He usually just took old wood or dried leaf, slammed them once to get the material charred, and than did it twice to really get a spark out of it and just popped the content in some old tree mushroom bark. (dont know what its called in english).. But anyway, this would been around -88-90 when i was in the scouts. =)
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Offline raynerd

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Re: Building a Fire Piston - by Craynerd
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2012, 03:00:25 PM »
Fire pistons is wicked cool - the thing is, it isnt really that new even though it have got plenty of attention the last few years. =)

In my younger years one of the adults in my scout group used a brass fire piston he kept as a necklace for all firestarting. It looked old and worn, so i guess he must had for quite a while. He usually just took old wood or dried leaf, slammed them once to get the material charred, and than did it twice to really get a spark out of it and just popped the content in some old tree mushroom bark. (dont know what its called in english).. But anyway, this would been around -88-90 when i was in the scouts. =)

Neo, I certainly never thought it was a new concept, these apparently were made many many (add plenty of 0`s) years ago out of bamboo, two pieces would be found that coincidently fit perfectly together to give the required seal!! wiki considers them "of ancient origin" .

I think perhaps what supprised me the most, is that it took me 28 years for me to ever come across one!!! My dad is 54 and grandad 86, neither of them has come across one either!! Amazing things...

Chris

« Last Edit: January 15, 2012, 04:46:14 PM by craynerd »