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Author Topic: 90 degree V4 OHC  (Read 58726 times)

Offline dbvandy

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90 degree V4 OHC
« on: March 09, 2011, 10:53:39 AM »
Now that I have the Webster complete (http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4413.0)  and the Otto running (http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4425.0), I am looking toward the next project:  designing a V4 OHC from the ground up.

I have a good grasp of how to build and redesign an engine from others plans from proven designs, but now I want to design and build one of my own.  I plan to put the plans out for public consumption once I have it how I want it, but that might be 6 months + out.  One problem is that I have limited CAD skills so there will be a little learning curve there, but I am not so worried about that.

I have a vision of what I want and will document the process the best I can here.

This is what I have so far:





I want it to be:
completely open design with ball bearings on the crank and cams
belt driven and out of bar stock
clean, exposed, and compact as possible
square 1 inch bore 1 inch stroke
fork and blade connecting rod with roller bearings throughout
90 degree V4
CDI ignition
single carb (or vapor tank)

Should be an interesting journey...

More to come...
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2011, 03:57:49 AM »
I have started to layout the V4.  Man, this thing is going to be huge!  Maybe I will rethink the over head cam thing and go with push rods on a single central cam or two overhead cams with rockers and the cams inboard of the heads...  or...  a DOHC system on each bank with rockers to push the valves...  that would be cool...  something to think about...

I laid out the cylinders and upright supports.  The 2 inch high 12L14 cylinders will be mounted on two 5 inch pieces of 3/8 x 2 6061 flat bar.  



I sticky taped the cylinders to the bars...





Those bars will then be mounted to two house shaped pieces of 3/4 x 3 6061.  I taped on some chunks of 6061 round bar that I had laying around to get an idea of the scale with the heads on.



The flywheel will be 4'' OD and about 1 1/2 inch thick.  About 1'' of the house shaped uprights will be cut off and the engine lowered.





I laid out a rough idea of what the heads will look like.  This will change of course as the engine develops.



There will be 2 bearings on each side of the crank to help keep it steady.  They are 6001  28mm x 12mm x 8 mm.



Ignition is under development...  I am going to go with a CDI system of some sort with a distributor driven off the cam belt.

Fuel delivery will be a single carburetor centrally mounted with intake tubes in a riser configuration like a V8 intake manifold.  

More to come...

Doug
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 06:25:56 PM by dbvandy »
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2011, 12:51:26 AM »
This engine is a "design as I go" thing, so there will be multiple changes as it begins to spring to life.  I am not trying to come up with a better way of doing things, just what will look cool and be fairly simple to machine.  

As I sat and looked at it on my coffee table today, I think I might try a DOHC setup with rockers.  I do not know if I am going to do 4 separate heads or two heads, one for each bank.  decisions decisions...  I have a few heads from a Honda gold wing that I might try to emulate.

One thing I thought about today was to enclose the crank with Plexiglas and put some oil in it to lube the pistons and crank.

The ignition might end up being a singe coil CDI unit with a distributor that will be driven off the cam timing belt.

More to come...

Doug
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 11:36:04 AM by dbvandy »
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Offline saw

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2011, 05:24:07 AM »
I will follow this project with the biggist intresst.  :thumbup:
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Offline ieezitin

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2011, 07:54:43 AM »
Hey Doug!

The pictures of the cylinders and such all duct taped together reminds me of a engine made by Skoda, that was a car made in Russia back in the 70ies and sold in Europe, I owned one for about 7 hours back in 78, and then some crack head stole it while I was in the library returning books. Even though it was irritating I in my mind thanked him for it.

I like your style in laying out your project I like to do the same thing it really helps with analyzing what is needed and where problems will occur.

All the best on the build.      Happy Days.      Anthony.
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Offline jiihoo

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2011, 10:30:39 AM »
Actually Skoda was made in Czechoslovakia. But you were quite close, as Czechoslovakia is only 1000 kilometers from Russia and it was a socialist country at that time.

The "classic" rear-engined Skoda of the 70's, well, it was a "classic" in its own right. It was well known for its beaty and handling or rather the lack of both. The best that can be said about it is that it would have been a decent car had it been made 20 to 30 years earlier... And maybe it actually was, I am not old enough to remember beyond the 70's. The other common rear-engined car of the time, the Volkswagen Beetle, became a real classic but the rear-engined Skoda was mostly forgotten.

Nowadays Skoda is part of the Volkswagen group just like Audi and Seat AND Bentley AND Lamborghini (I didn't know of the last two before just two minutes ago and now I am in shock). The Skoda of today is quite ok. I don't think there is any of the "original" Skoda design left anymore except for the logo. It is all Volkswagen technology now. The Skodas of old, before the 60's, were quite good cars in their time and there are many old car enthusiasts who would very much like to find a good example and restore it back to its original glory. So your engine being compared to a Skoda engine is actually not as bad as it first might sound like  ::)

Back to on-topic now  :whip:

This will be an interesting thread to watch! Even just sitting there held together by tape the parts somehow seem to belong together.
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2011, 11:43:17 PM »
Well,  I have made some decisions...

quad cam 16 valve hemi head... no rockers, cam directly over the valve with a inverted cup for adjustment.  I think I have it all figured out...

I have one prototype valve made now, might have to adjust dimensions a bit  will have one head prototyped up tomorrow and will post pics...

The heads are by far the hardest part... the cylinders, pistons, and crank will be easy...

More to come...  Doug
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2011, 01:01:36 AM »
Here is a valve assembly.  There will be 16 of them (ugh....)



It is made in 5 parts (the inverted cup that rides on the cam and over the guide is not made....)  The valve is 1/8th inch rod and the head is silver soldered on...  not so sure about this...  might make them all out of one piece like I did on the other engines...  any suggestions?



The tappet is integrated into the valve so there is two places that the valve stem rides in the guide.  



The valves will be at 30 deg angle.  



One cam will operate both valves...  a total of 8 cams, but there will be a lobe on each end.



The heads will be about 1/2 an inch closer to the block once the cylinder is inset into block and head.  Still huge...



I found a site to compute the compression ratio...  the CI will be 3 and compression ratio 4 to 1...  nice...



More to come...

Doug
« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 01:31:49 AM by dbvandy »
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Offline John Hill

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2011, 03:51:39 AM »
I didnt know Skoda made a V4. :scratch:
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Offline John Hill

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2011, 03:58:04 AM »
Quote from: dbvandy on March 14, 2011, 11:43:17 PM
Well,  I have made some decisions...

quad cam 16 valve hemi head... no rockers, cam directly over the valve with a inverted cup for adjustment.  I think I have it all figured out...

I have one prototype valve made now, might have to adjust dimensions a bit  will have one head prototyped up tomorrow and will post pics...

The heads are by far the hardest part... the cylinders, pistons, and crank will be easy...

More to come...  Doug

Will you be carving the head(s) out of solid?

BTW,  I toyed with the idea of making a water cooled head for a single cylinder engine by cutting cross sections out of thin plate then fluxing them and cooking the entire assembly to braze it together. Food for thought? :beer:
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Offline NickG

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2011, 08:15:04 AM »
Doug,

Can't see the pics here (something to do with our server) but posting as a place holder for now so I can look when I get home!  :thumbup:

Will definitely be following this one.

Cheers,

Nick
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Offline Bernd

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2011, 10:22:17 AM »
Quote from: dbvandy on March 15, 2011, 01:01:36 AM
It is made in 5 parts (the inverted cup that rides on the cam and over the guide is not made....)  The valve is 1/8th inch rod and the head is silver soldered on...  not so sure about this...  might make them all out of one piece like I did on the other engines...  any suggestions?
Doug

Doug,

I've never built a IC engine so take this with a grain of salt. I would think that the closeing of the valve and it hitting the valve seat would stretch the the head off of the stem and you would loose compression after a while.

Just my thought on that.

Bernd
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2011, 10:43:42 AM »
Quote from: Bernd on March 15, 2011, 10:22:17 AM
Quote from: dbvandy on March 15, 2011, 01:01:36 AM
It is made in 5 parts (the inverted cup that rides on the cam and over the guide is not made....)  The valve is 1/8th inch rod and the head is silver soldered on...  not so sure about this...  might make them all out of one piece like I did on the other engines...  any suggestions?
Doug

Doug,

I've never built a IC engine so take this with a grain of salt. I would think that the closeing of the valve and it hitting the valve seat would stretch the the head off of the stem and you would loose compression after a while.

Just my thought on that.

Bernd

There are plans that call for the head to be silver soldered onto the stem, but it just concerns me.   Does anyone have a screen shot of the instructions that explain how to make the two part valve?  Is there supposed to be a slot in the stem to help it lock onto the head?  Is there a particular percentage of silver needed or will plumbing silver solder be ok?

Thanks

Doug
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Offline NickG

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2011, 12:17:02 PM »
Doug, I'm sure I've heard of / seen this somewhere before but can't help with specifics, sorry!

Nick
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2011, 11:46:39 PM »
Most of the time spent making engines is making jigs that most likely will never be used again....

I think I have the head about figured out... now if I can make four that are all the same.

I made up 3 guide blanks to see what it will look like.  There will be an inverted stainless cup to cover the valve and contact the cam.







This is most likely just the prototype.  After I know how to make one, then I will make 4 more.

More to come...

Doug
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Offline saw

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2011, 04:41:34 AM »
Looking good  :clap:
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2011, 12:27:27 AM »
I now have 3 of the 4 heads milled...  Still need to mill the cam mounts, intake and exhaust ports and head bolt holes, but it is starting to look like something.

I purchased a new drill press, a 12 inch Ryobi (on clearance at Home Depot for $100, I'm just sayin......) with a 3 inch stroke and laser "X" marks the spot.  I got a really nice x-y table for Christmas but it was WAY to big for my tiny 8 inch delta press so I kept using the x-y vise on it.  On the new press it fits great and works wonderfully.  For those of you with proper mills, you might be chuckling, but it is what I have and it works just fine, just have to be careful and have realistic tolerances.  It trammed in to almost 0 all the way around, so I can't complain.  It has a MT2 and JT33 tapered arbor and I have red loctited the chuck on to it and blue loctited the arbor into the spindle as I might want to get it out one day.  I have taken a ton of "heavy" cuts and it has not budged.  If it comes loose, it comes loose, but I don't think it will...  I put two scissor jacks under the table to tram it in, I am going to weld up some proper screw jacks that can be mounted semi-permanent.

Here are some pics of the jig (scrap aluminum I had around).  I have ordered a proper angle vise so I won't have to worry with this in the future, but this works just fine.



And a wider shot:



And the start of some documentation of the head (have yet to figure out ProgeCAD).  The design was scientific eyeball and this is normalized to what it should be.  I had fun trying to remember all that sin and cos stuff to calculate the angles and dimensions ...  thank God for the internet...



ok.. now go build it guys....

oh...  still missing some dimensions....  working on that...

More to come...

Doug

« Last Edit: March 19, 2011, 10:33:45 AM by dbvandy »
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2011, 11:40:17 PM »
One head is done minus manifold and cam bracket mounting holes and head bolt holes.  I am pretty confident I can make 3 more just like it...







More to come...

Doug
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2011, 12:10:29 AM »
Did not make any chips today...  spent the day adding DRO's to the new machine.  $9.99 digital 6'' calipers from Harbor Freight.  Every time I am in there I pick up a set or two.  Even if they crap out... its only 10 bucks to get a new one.



x axis...  I can move if needed.  6'' is not much, but should be fine for what I am going to mill...



Y axis...  what a pain this one was!!!  The bracket needed to be pretty stout.  The other two took about an hour each... this one...  3 or 4... but it is right.  I do not really like it in the back, but I did not want it hanging out the front and get bent or broken.



The Z is pretty solid.  When I am in the mood I will make a proper clamp for the spindle, but this one works just fine for now.  It repeats over and over and is solid.  I can't complain.



The Press has variable speed via a CV belt system and it has a tach to show the revs.  The tach is a self contained system so I thought about getting a spare to add to the lathe...  $200 worth of parts!!!!  I only paid $100 for whole the press brand new on clearance!!!!



Tomorrow I will get back to making chips....

that is all...

Doug

« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 02:09:53 PM by dbvandy »
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2011, 02:06:41 PM »
Well, the four heads are done.  When I decided to go to 16 valves and 4 cam shafts the complexity skyrocketed immensely.  The first one is within a few thousands of the other three where all the critical measurements were, so I decided to forgo spending another two days making a fifth one.   

After viewing Kenneth's Robot photos, I decided to step up my photography a bit.  Not nearly the same thing as he is giving birth to, but here are the heads nonetheless...



Now onto the cylinders and block.  I am going to come back to the valves once I have a better handle on the placement of the cam shafts.

more to come...

Doug
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Offline Bernd

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2011, 02:18:43 PM »
Lookin' good Doug. Hey all pictures are good, but a little competion makes for a better product.

This is an interesting thread. I enjoy seeing how one starts with an idea and seeing it come together. Nice job.  :thumbup:

Bernd
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Offline saw

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2011, 02:29:40 PM »
You are building somthing very fine  :thumbup:
I must ask you: what is DRO's and where to find that kind of digital 6'' calipers you have on your'e mill. Is it hard to mount? :loco:
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2011, 06:55:00 PM »
Quote from: saw on March 25, 2011, 02:29:40 PM
You are building somthing very fine  :thumbup:
I must ask you: what is DRO's and where to find that kind of digital 6'' calipers you have on your'e mill. Is it hard to mount? :loco:

DRO is a Digital Read Out.  it helps you know exactly where you are in space X-Y-Z.  The calipers are 6 inch cheap Chinese ones.  I have since discovers some from Grizzly that are not much more and are more robust and have a remote display...  maybe I will upgrade one day, but these work fine for now.  If I had this setup when I started the heads, they would all be the exact same.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/0-6-Digital-Fractional-Horizontal-Vertical-Remote-Scale/T21577

http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-Digital-Scale-with-Remote-Readout-Inch-Metric-Fraction/T23012

The calipers came from Harbor Freight (there is a store 5 miles from my house...).  I have some really good coupons that get them down to $9.99...

http://www.harborfreight.com/6-inch-digital-caliper-47257.html

I also now have a tilt vise.  WOW!  I wish I had that when I started the heads!!!  oh well... now I do...  It was way out when I got it, but it is within a thou now.  Having the tools....  priceless...
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Offline saw

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2011, 08:17:16 PM »
Thanks for replay, it's very intressting, but I did not quite understand, how to mount it on the mill, I supose I have to drill some right?  :loco:
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Offline dbvandy

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Re: 90 degree V4 OHC
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2011, 10:30:48 PM »
Quote from: saw on March 25, 2011, 08:17:16 PM
Thanks for replay, it's very intressting, but I did not quite understand, how to mount it on the mill, I supose I have to drill some right?  :loco:

Two holes for each axis.  not real big ones and they cause no change to the operation of the mill.  I made brackets and epoxied them to the scales...  I tried to drill them... but they are hardened stainless and I did not have any cobalt drills, just HSS.

Doug
« Last Edit: March 27, 2011, 06:37:02 PM by dbvandy »
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