Would I need to bolt down this mill?

[John Hill]

Luxcut mill by aardvark_akubra, on Flickr

I have managed to secure financial authority to buy this mill  which leads me to ponder how I can get it into place in the new shop.

Quoted freight is  door-to-door which I presume will be sitting on a pallet at the door of my garage, hopefully inside.  Maybe I can move it around on steel pipe rollers, as I did my lathe (at half the weight!).

Once in place, do I want to leave it on a pallet? Probably not.  But I could add timber under the mill to augment the pallet then trim off around the edges leaving the mill sitting on a solid timber plinth.  Would this be OK or do I need to bolt this machine down?

Thanks.

[Trion]

For reference, my 1,2 ton Sajo is sitting on a pallet. When I reorganize my shop, say twice a year, i just push it around on the pallet lifter. It does have a high centre of gravity and requires a mighty push to move, but it works. IŽd be scared to run my mill on steel pipes!

[Bogstandard]

John,

That is basically the same mill as I have.

It was moved into the shop (with great difficulty because of the terrain) on a pallet and pallet truck, but once on the workshop floor we used pipe rollers. But you have to be very careful, as they can easily get trapped in the casting recesses on the bottom. I now have  a pair of toe jacks and a wheeled pry bar if ever I need to move it again. It weighs about 650kgs or just over 1400lbs.

In all honesty, if I was you, it needs to be on the floor. No need to bolt down, but to get it levelled up. Not super critical for a mill, but it makes sure that all bearing surfaces are having the same weight distribution. Another reason is the height of the machine. I am 6ft tall, and when I release the draw bar, it is a fairly easy height to reach, and also a comfortable height to work at, either sitting or standing. If it was up on dunnage, it would be getting to the point of being uncomfortable.

Hope this helps


John

[kvom]

None of the knee mills I've seen have been bolted down.  I did see one shop owned by a real master machinist where all the machines had a bead of "quick-crete" poured around the edges.  This keeps swarf from getting underneath.  If a machine had to be moved the concrete fringe was easy to chip away.

[John Hill]

John, what scope is there for dismantling the machine to make it easier to handle? 

The head can be tilted 90 degrees (I think) which reduces the height somewhat but probably makes it 'side heavy' which would have to be compensated by running the table to the other side.  John, I noticed a lifting eye on the top of the machine, is that enough to lift the entire machine or is it just for lifting the head and ram off?  (I guess I should be asking the dealer that..)

I only have 2400mm ceiling height and two 1900mm high door ways to go through, at least they are both wide garage doors.  The floor is ultra smooth concrete but we do not have our concrete drive and I doubt the crane on the truck will be able to put the machine indoors so there will be some effort to get it indoors.

According to my form 1250 I was then 5'11" and I thought the machine was a little low when I stood beside it in the shop but obviously your experience is more reliable than at fleeting impressing so I am now aiming to get it onto the floor, or as near as dammit.

My plan, (at the moment and subject to radical change!) is to see if a scaffolder can build a frame around it with wheels at four corners, I am not sure if that is daft or so cunning one could pin a tail on it..



John.

[Bogstandard]

John,

My delivery man handled the whole machine from that eyebolt with no problems.



Going over a drop down step using a 1 ton engine hoist.



The hardest part was traversing along the patterned paving slabs using a pallet truck, it was moved an inch at a time.



The head tilted to get it under the top door frame.



A view of that from the side.



Once inside it was put onto small but long tubes. The machine could easily be pushed sideways along the tubes, like it was on ice. The same would happen if you put a strong steel sheet on the floor.



In position, about 4 hours from start to finish, including lots of rest breaks. The hardest and slowest part was going over the paving slabs.




I hope this answers a few questions.


John

[John Hill]

Thanks John...

Great photographs and much, much more difficult than what I am faced with.

I took an extra sip of the breakfast coffee and made the call.  Ordered the machine and almost as much again in accessories!  Not being experienced in this I asked the dealer to recommend a range of accessories appropriate to the machine.


The machine,Luxcut TM-1S Turret Mill, 1 Phase c/w 2 axis DRO, $4,950.00

Homge HKV-125 x 80 Machine Vice, c/w removable swivel base 1 $300.00 -10% $270.00
Optimum R8 x 3MT Taper Adaptor 1 $45.00
NOTE : Machine draw bar M12. Request R8 x 3MT with M12 threaded hole to match.
$50.00 -10%
R8 x ER32 COLLET CHUCK 1 $125.00 -10% $112.50
Homge HHV-150 Rotary Table, Horiz/Vertical 150mm
150mm Table diameter. 2MT Centre. 90:1 Worm ratio.
$540.00 less 10% discount = $486.00
In stock, subject to prior sale.
LATHE CHUCK 3 JAW X 125mm 3000 RPM MAX 1 $144.00
NOTE : Recomended 3 jaw for ease of fitting to rotary table. Fitting larger can be acheived but more difficult.
$160.00 -10%
Homge BS-1 Dividing Head, Semi-universal c/w tailstock and div
plates
128mm Centre height. 20mm Spindle bore. B&S No.9 Taper. 40:1 Worm ratio.
Complete with 3 dividing plates, tailstock, backing plate, 2 x dead centres.
$990.00 less 10% discount = $891.00
In stock, subject to prior sale.
NOTE : Dividing head capable of more complex gear cutting etc.
Freight door to door  $400.00

Those prices make your eyes water eh?  NZ$ is about 45 pence.

I also added a face cutter and a clamp down set.  I already have a set of ER32 collets and milling cutters.



The mill will be delivered to the garage door and bolted to a couple of wooden 'skids'.  I will have to winch it up the 2" step into the garage if the truck driver is not adept enough with his Hiab to put it indoors.  Once indoors it should be a piece of cake with half inch pipe rollers!


Now I am getting excited!

John

[Bryan]

John, very exciting getting a new machine!. But do you really need a dividing head as well as a rotary table? It is possible to divide with a rotab. I have an Excel spreadsheet that gives cumulative angles for dividing. Will post if you like.

[John Hill]

A good question Bryan.  But I really dont know the answer.

[saw]

Bryan: I like to have that excell  spreadsheet if you don't mind. 

[Artie]

How fantastic John! Might slip over for a look when it arrives if you dont mind... wont drive though.... too wet....

Thats precisley the style of machine Im on the lookout for hope you enjoy.

Cheers Rob

[Bryan]

Bryan: I like to have that excell  spreadsheet if you don't mind. 

I posted it in How Tos: http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4571.0
You're welcome. 

[John Hill]

How fantastic John! Might slip over for a look when it arrives if you dont mind... wont drive though.... too wet....

Thats precisley the style of machine Im on the lookout for hope you enjoy.

Cheers Rob

You would be more than welcome to take a look Rob.

I trust I will be able to report on it in due course.

[Davo J]

Hi John,
I think you will be happy with that machine, looks good.
I know it's easier to buy the larger accessories local because of postage but the collet chuck can be bought from CTC for $15.50 US. Also have you rang Hare and Forbes over their to get prices for the rotary table etc? I know they carry Vertex brand which I have found pretty good.

With the vise I have one similar to their HAV angle lock vises and think they are a lot better than the K type.
I also agree with Bryan about only needing a rotary table with plates, and it is more versatile than the dividing head.

Will look forward to your mill arrival thread.

Dave

[John Hill]

Machine could be here in two days, if I can get to the bank tomorrow.

I will end up with both the dividing head and the rotary table if for no other reason than that having managed to get financial authority for the purchase I dont want to queer the pitch in any way.  Former public servants will understand!

Yes, I have bought small stuff from CTC and they are very good, it would have been smart to get some of the smaller bits from them this time, "but there you go".

Hare and Forbes have their 'Machinery House' in NZ but last time I looked they had a range of quality whereas these people, although more expensive, seem to take a very serious view of quality regarding the products they carry.  I did compare their mill offerings with a Machinery House on-line offer and they made the comment that they used to carry the very same machine but they did not like the quality and besides, so they said, when they sold it it was cheaper than Machinery House.

[arnoldb]

Very Very nice bunch of kit John 

I've found having both a rotary table and a dividing head extremely convenient. 

Initially, I only had my dividing head; a good genuine Myford one made 40 years ago.  As I was basically abusing it to do the sort of work more suited to an RT, and I could not afford an RT, I ended up building one.
The home-brew rotary table is mostly bolted down in-place on the left side of the mill table and the vise on the right.  And I made an adapter plate for the dividing head to quickly mount it in the mill vise when needed.  This saves a lot of time in setting things up and makes it quick to do jobs like the rotor wheel I made for the turbine; no fiddling around bolting and unbolting bits of kit to get the work done.

Regards, Arnold

[jiihoo]

Hi John & others,

I'd like to hear the more experienced members' comments on whether a 4-jaw or a 3-jaw would be better for the rotary table. I saw John had a 3-jaw listed on his shopping list whereas I have only ever had a 4-jaw on mine.

I have found the 4-jaw to be more versatile than a 3-jaw would be. It is easy to chuck a piece of metal off center with the 4-jaw and it is easy to hold square pieces in case you want a round feature on the top. Then again, If I didn't have a 4-jaw, I could probably clamp the pieces directly to the rotary. Also, I started this hobby with the mill and only recently bought a lathe, so I have used the rotary table for some tasks where the average person would have used a lathe and that may skew my opinions.

On the negative side every time you chuck something round on the rotary, you need to center it which wouldn't be necessary if you had a 3-jaw on it.

I guess the "correct" answer depends on what you plan to do with the rotary   And BTW, your planned mill purchase rocks (says he and wipes the drool away from his mouth) 

[Bogstandard]

As far as I am concerned, and I have said this before. A four jaw independent on an RT would be like wearing barbed wire underpants, a real PITA. Basically having to set up every job, rather than just dropping it in and getting on with it. I know a few of the US lads like to have a 4 jaw independent fitted.

I reckon the majority of the circular jobs that are mounted into an RT chuck are for concentric work, so either a 3 or 4 jaw self centring would be advantageous. On the odd occasion I wanted offset work doing, then I would just as easily make up an offset mandrel in the RT or mount directly to the table using something like a Keats angle plate or a Rike vice.

In fact everyone with a RT should consider making a Rike vice for their offset work.

I showed a basic one in this post.

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=3742.0


Bogs

[Miner]

John,
Due to my needs of breaking my mill down to managable weights to get it into my shop I then decided to clean all the parts before reassembly. I can't stress just how important this step is with any mill. If you think about it, These mills are certainly not machined or assembled in anything close to what would be considered "clean room conditions". What I saw in the bottom of the solvent containers convinced me I was right. No you won't get pounds of dirt and grinding dust but there's certainly more than enough to accelerate wear and tear on the leadscrews and precision ground surfaces. These turret mills are a real simple collection of easily disassembled parts. The only two areas I wouldnt take apart are the head/motor, And the X.Y nut should not be disturbed as it's been aligned to the axis travels, So just use a pressurised solvent to clean it in place. Doing this also removes the rust preventitive shipping grease. That grease is just for preventing that rust and nowhere near a proper lubricant. During reassembly you can positively confirm that all areas are getting properly lubed from the one shot oil pump. The whole job takes about a day to do and you'll thank yourself later for doing it. IMO all mills from the tiniest to the largest should have this preventitive maintenance done before putting them into operation. I'll bet that anyone else who has done this will agree with me. Your mill will also work far smoother after doing this too.

Pete

[jiihoo]

As far as I am concerned, and I have said this before. A four jaw independent on an RT would be like wearing barbed wire underpants, a real PITA.

I think that settles it once and for all. Thanks, Bogs. I'll go and check my wardrobe if I'll find where I put my barbed wire underpants after the last time I used them.
The 4-jaw has its moments, though, so maybe John should get one of those too. With that big a budget no-one will notice if you slipped one more little item in there.

[John Hill]

With that big a budget no-one will notice if you slipped one more little item in there.

It is always a hassle to reduce an aquisition list, what with all the explanations and all, the only harder is to add to the list.  Once you have financial authority spend every penny and no more, no less.  To do otherwise complicates the approval processes in the future.

OT,  I used to work in a government department where we were responsible for high budget items for airports etc.  Typically, around about Feb24 the man from accounts would come around and tell us the good news that our financial requests have been approved and we have 'x' squillions to spend, but we must commit it by the end of March!  So we are going to do a world wide tender process for an ILS landing system in about three weeks?  No way, so the accounts man would say something like "Oh well, new furniture again this year"!

[Artie]

I guess its a case of us all having our own ideas and preferences. What works for me on the RT is the 4 jaw independant. In fact since I mounted mine its not been taken off, ever.  

And they build em tough 'down 'ere' barbed wire underpants are just soooo comfy....

[Bogstandard]

Artie,

That was just my own personal view, everyone should do what they are comfortable with.

I have never ever been happy with using a four jaw independent. I'm not saying I can't use one, as I think I am up with the best of them. Just I don't like using them. Maybe I had a childhood experience that put me off them for life.

But for the lathe and RT, I do enjoy faceplate work, and with that comes the Keats angle plate, which under normal circumstances, takes the place of my 4 jaw independent.

  Sorry to have hijacked your post John.


John

[Artie]

Artie,

That was just my own personal view, everyone should do what they are comfortable with.


  Sorry to have hijacked your post John.


John

Hi John, yes mate, same here, its greta we all seem to have differing views, that sone of the ways we learn from each other...

And yes John... back to you...  

[Davo J]

And they build em tough 'down 'ere' barbed wire underpants are just soooo comfy....

LOL, And here I was thinking that they are just the normal undies us guys down here wear.

I have a 10 inch rotary table with a 10 inch 4 jaw chuck on it and find it doesn't take long to dial it in. At least with a 4 jaw you have the best of both worlds being able to hold round and square, as well as unusual shaped jobs.
Also not many home shop 3 jaw chucks are real accurate, unless you spent big bucks. The 4 jaw chuck accuracy is what ever you dial it into be.

Dave