Author Topic: Scott flame licker build (Read 176859 times)

Bogstandard · « **Reply #200 on:** March 16, 2011, 03:12:16 AM »

Jack,

The burner will actually be mounted a little lower and closer than shown, so that the centre of the rose is pushing flame to the centre of the valve hole. That way it will be keeping cold air from entering the cylinder, which can be a major problem, especially with spirit based burners, that is why they usually have to be so large.

The flame should be about 1/2" long at maximum, a bit like the individual jets on a gas cooker ring, all the same length, unlike a blowtorch which has the central one much longer and larger.

John

NickG · « **Reply #201 on:** March 16, 2011, 05:18:33 AM »

Brilliant work there John. Good idea making the cylinder able to slide too. Exciting times approaching!

Nick

cfellows · « **Reply #202 on:** March 16, 2011, 09:48:13 AM »

Watching and learning, here, John. Flamelickers have always been my favorites. Will your engine run on propane, butane, or ???

Chuck

saw · « **Reply #203 on:** March 16, 2011, 10:36:44 AM »

It just been better and better

Stilldrillin · « **Reply #204 on:** March 16, 2011, 10:51:15 AM »

Quote from: saw on March 16, 2011, 10:36:44 AM

It just been better and better

So true!

Bogstandard · « **Reply #205 on:** March 16, 2011, 04:00:29 PM »

Many thanks folks for the encouragement.

Chuck,

With a refillable gas tank, you can normally use either propane or butane, as long as you can decant it into the smaller high pressure vessel.

Propane runs a lot hotter than butane when it goes thru the burner, but I normally use a butane/propane mix that is used in plumbers blow torches, very easy to obtain and easily decanted into the refillable tank. I will be showing that rechargeable tank the end of the burner build.

While I am posting this, I may as well show you what I managed to get done this morning, rather than showing it in a much larger post tomorrow

There were three things that needed to be made, on the right, the jet holder clamp, which if made to the plans was all threading and allsorts, this one will just be stuck in the end of the tube with a clamp screw to allow the jet to be adjusted backwards/forwards. In the centre is the mixer venturi, made by drilling thru with a centre drill that has a 1/8" drill point on it. It penetrates half way thru with the 60 degree angled bit, the rest being the 1/8" tip. This not only speeds up the gas flow but mixes the gas and air together. Lastly on the left is the burner rose itself, it has been hollowed out on the back so that the face that the holes are drilled into is only 1/8" thick. This also isn't to plan, I did it to stop the thin 1/16" drill wandering off course if it had to drill the whole depth of the rose.

Using the Divmaster and ER collet chuck on the RT, I first went around the rose and spot drilled all the hole positions, then followed the same route with the 1/16" drill

The rose was a tight push fit into the burner tube, plus the tube was very slightly swaged over on the end to make sure it won't pop out when it heats up
The jet holder clamp and the venturi will be loctited into their correct position when I get back to it.

I would most probably have finished this burner off if I didn't have a couple of very welcome visitors this afternoon, Stew and Ade V, who called around for a gum beating session and for us to see Stew's flywheels close up and personal, and they are very nice indeed.

All this leaving me totally worn out.

Bogs

John Hill · « **Reply #206 on:** March 16, 2011, 04:32:46 PM »

Hmmmmm John, that looks like a big burner?

Bogstandard · « **Reply #207 on:** March 16, 2011, 05:40:34 PM »

John,

I think you have to realise that it won't be a roaring burner like a blowtorch, but more of a gentle flame, like a cooking stove burner on low, plus it will be fully controllable by a screw type gas valve. The max flame length will only be 1/2".

We should see tomorrow, if I can get it finished off.

John

AdeV · « **Reply #208 on:** March 16, 2011, 06:21:21 PM »

Quote from: John Hill on March 16, 2011, 04:32:46 PM

Hmmmmm John, that looks like a big burner?

It looks a lot more "in proportion" when you see it together with the engine. I'm well impressed with John's cylinder & piston; you can move them easily, with very little friction; but cover the hole in the end of the cylinder and the vacuum seal is - as far as I can tell - perfect; the piston becomes very difficult to move.

Nice to see you this afternoon John - and, once again, I felt the knowledge basically flowed one way... and it sure wasn't from me..!

Bogstandard · « **Reply #209 on:** March 17, 2011, 05:50:43 PM »

Time to get this burner finished and out of the way for now.

The venturi, sitting in the background, needs to go down the tube from the jet end by a specific amount, so by using the thin depth reader on my digivern, that is what I did.

It was a nice 'grippy' fit down the tube, so it was tapped down with a hammer and soft drift until it got to the correct position. I got it to within 0.005" from where the drawing said, and because I have made the jet easily adjustable in/out, the perfect position for mixing can very easily be reached, a few seconds at most. It was loctited in position, as suggested in the build instructions.

The jet tube holder was then tapped into the end and again, loctited in. You can see in this shot, the venturi down in the tube, just past the air holes.

This is my cosmetically challenged refillable, commercial gas tank, it will be cleaned up and painted.
In the centre of the top you can see the 'Ronson' filler valve, which allows you, with an adaptor screwed onto a disposable plumbers torch canister, to fill the tank with gas (in fact not full, but only about 2/3rds, there is a stack tube below the valve inside that prevents overfilling). These are tested to much higher pressures than boilers, 360 psi.
The control valve isn't a normal steam one either, it has to be a special gas control valve. When I used to make these tanks, from thick walled brass seamless tube and flanged end plates, with an internal stay, the Ronson filler and control valve were always purchased, not made by myself.

A thread was put into the side of the jet tube holder and a brass screw fitted. This allowed easy adjustment of the jet backwards/forwards in relation to the venturi.

I tried the burner out not only with the brass rose that I had made, but also with a piece of ceramic burner material, made from an old boiler burner.

The brass one gave a much better jet pattern.

I hope this little vid shows what you need to know.

Not long to first run now.

Bogs

Dean W · « **Reply #210 on:** March 17, 2011, 06:48:41 PM »

Yes, it's a good explanation of the burner, John. Thanks.
Makes a nice soft flame, and is quiet, too. Being quiet is nice, as some are kind of loud.

saw · « **Reply #211 on:** March 17, 2011, 08:00:10 PM »

You are making a wunderfull engine, the 8th wunder of the world?

Stilldrillin · « **Reply #212 on:** March 18, 2011, 03:05:28 AM »

Crisp, clear explanation John.

Lovely, gentle burner operation.

A similar design would be perfect for the Robinson engine. Hmmmmm......

David D

cfellows · « **Reply #213 on:** March 18, 2011, 12:50:57 PM »

Thanks for the detailled explanation, John. I've always wondered why the flame doesn't travel back up the tube where the gas and air first mix...

By the way, how difficult is it to blow out the flame with this type burner?

Chuck

Bogstandard · « **Reply #214 on:** March 18, 2011, 02:15:37 PM »

Gents, many thanks, but I think you must remember, I didn't design this burner, I just made it a lot easier and cheaper to make than the one described in the plans, as no materials are supplied with the kit for either type of burner.

Chuck,

Looking at the burn marks on a picture I have of this engine, it looks like the burner is run with a largish flame, maybe to stop it being blown out when the cylinder exhausts at the end of stroke.

I never tried to blow it out, but I suppose I should.

I will have to put my teeth in though, otherwise all I will be doing is blowing raspberries.

John

lordedmond · « **Reply #215 on:** March 18, 2011, 02:56:51 PM »

John ( Bogs )

if it would not infringe the copyright on the plans can you give the nozzle size and the Venturi dimensions ,if it will then no problems

reason I ask I have a no.5 and no.8 both of which give a flame that is to large even with the valve just cracked I am using the polly/stuart gas pipe and adapter valve for the "go gas cans "

Stuart

Bogstandard · « **Reply #216 on:** March 18, 2011, 04:31:34 PM »

Stuart,

By the nozzle, if you mean the rose, it is the same diameter as the internal size of the copper pipe fitting. The plans actually call for 16 X 1/16" holes, but on the plan drawing, it shows 19 holes, one in the midlle, step out 3/32", then a ring of 6, step out 3/32" again and a ring of 12. I made the 19 hole one.

The jet is a #5, and the venturi is made with a standard centre drill that has a 1/8" drill point, going thru a piece of brass bar the same diameter as the internal of the copper tube and is 5/16" long. The four air holes in the 15mm copper tube are 7/32" diameter.

Read your PM's

John

mklotz · « **Reply #217 on:** March 18, 2011, 04:45:04 PM »

Quote from: bogstandard on March 18, 2011, 02:15:37 PM

I will have to put my teeth in though, otherwise all I will be doing is blowing raspberries.

Now there's an image I really didn't need to visualize.

Bogstandard · « **Reply #218 on:** March 18, 2011, 05:30:07 PM »

Warts and all on here Marv

Just for a little bit of interest, here are a few pics of this engine, built in the 1990's. It looks like that the build was done exactly to plans, almost. The crankdisk has a different shape.

Just so that you can visualise the general layout.
Looking at it, I think I might knock myself up a shorter gas tank, as the one I have is too long. But I do have a couple more copper based ones somewhere, one of those might fit the bill a little better.
The plans contain all the information if you need to make one yourself.

The linkage to the flame control valve.

A close up of where the burner sits and how the graphite block seems to sit in the burner flame almost permanently. I think I will have to knock up a few spares as I expect they will get burnt away.

It also looks like they have reduced the top to bottom height of the block, I will have to look if that is required when I get mine to a running stage.

Just by looking at other peoples builds can give clues to little problems that might need fixing before it will run correctly.

Bogs

lordedmond · « **Reply #219 on:** March 19, 2011, 03:28:18 AM »

Thanks John

Pm read and actioned

Stuart

madjackghengis · « **Reply #220 on:** March 19, 2011, 08:48:31 AM »

Hi John, it looks like that burner came out very well. I've been running my "oddball", with just the light of the overhead in my shop, so I can look through the port and watch how the flame plays through the hole. I've got an inch and a half stroke, three quarter bore, with a three eighths port, using a nine thousandths leaf from a feeler gauge and about a .213 brass tube with cotton string for wick, and I see a half inch diameter flame "ball", a soft flame, as the port closes, and about an inch or more of flame going fully into the cylinder when fully up to temp, running about six hundred rpm. I think a gas burner out of perhaps three eighths copper fittings, scaled down comparable burner plate and venturi, will probably give me a bit more flame than my alky lamp, and probably allow me to cut it in half, for a slow run as well as the full out speed. I've had the soldered together valve linkage break the solder joints from letting it get up to about seven hundred rpm, it's soldered a bit better, but I suspect I'd better put a bracing brass tube to triangulate the linkage or a better flame will cause another breakage.
That burner build section is very well done, and clarifies things a lot, making for some ideas on a similar burner for a sort of version of "poppin" I've been working on. I want to get away from the alky lamps and go with the gas as much as possible. I've used one of those torch type lighters with butane, and the strong flame doesn't do near as good a job as the soft flame you're getting and seems to draw in cold air as you suggested. I'm trying to get my oddball a bit easier to operate so I can give it to my mom, I think she'll enjoy it, especially if it's easy to clean up, and easy to get it to run right off cold.
I think the narrower tank looks good on that other build you show, and will look good on yours too. I suspect the graphite will last pretty well, as it stands almost red heat pretty easily, and it doesn't conduct heat very well. The way this build went I'm thinking I need to emulate it, it looks to be quite efficient altogether. very nicely done, and with very nice graphics, I really like the vid of the burner, and the narrative you give with it. Very informative.

Cheers, Jack

andyf · « **Reply #221 on:** March 19, 2011, 10:38:56 AM »

John, at first sight your burner seemed to have a lot in common with a laboratory Meker burner, which according to one source I have seen produces (on natural gas) 12,000 BTU/hr as against 5,000 from a Bunsen. Pic of a Meker here: http://www.crscientific.com/mekerburner.html . Thus, I thought you might get a rather roaring flame, but the lack of a "specially designed barrel" on yours, and the turbulence caused by the bend, probably keeps it in check. Nice job; looking forward to seeing it powering the engine.

Andy

Bogstandard · « **Reply #222 on:** March 19, 2011, 06:43:01 PM »

A little more slow progress. I have been trying to sort out a decent spring hanger method, rather than the crappy ones shown on the plan and what you can see in the few piccies I showed last time.

This is how I got on.

The ones at the back, I incorporated into the valve arm hub, and by measuring that up between the arms, I managed to get a length for the graphite block to lifting arm spacer, so a couple of those were knocked up out of brass.
Once that was done, a quick measure up between the back spring tails and I could start to make up the top hangers.

This shows where the springs have to stretch to, plus it shows how the cam follower and lifting arms work,

After an hour or so's work, the top hangers were made. The bottom left hand one has slipped on the shaft slightly as the grub screws have yet to be tightened, but you can now see that the springs are now well secured and running parallel with the operating arms, rather than the haphazard way they are suggested to be mounted.

How they sit with the cylinder and water jacket fitted. I started to set up for a very basic try out, with the grub screws all tightened up and the timing somewhere near. I am going to have the engine with the flywheel running clockwise when viewed from this side of the engine, rather than from the other side. That means the flywheel retaining pulley screw is tightening up during running rather than trying to unscrew itself.

Unfortunately, I failed miserably.

I was attempting to run the engine with the cam follower arm retained by a grub screw onto it's shaft rather than a pin right thru it. I did that for ease of disassembly during trials. It kept slipping, so it looks like I will have to pin it now rather than later. Also, I need to shorten the studs slightly that hold the cylinder head on, the graphite block spacers are just touching them. Before going ahead and shortening them, I will make and fit the cylinder head gasket first, that just might give me the clearance I need.

Getting there slowly.

Bogs

lordedmond · « **Reply #223 on:** March 20, 2011, 05:17:27 AM »

Looking good John

It would be great if someone could do some macro/slow motion video of the flame propagation though the port on a flame gulper engine

Stuart

Bogstandard · « **Reply #224 on:** March 20, 2011, 06:03:27 AM »

Stuart,

I was looking at purchasing a new camera to do just that, a Casio model, but having not long ago bought a new Fuji one, I thought it a bit of a waste of money just for the slomo feature, so maybe in another years time.

I will be happy just to see it running.

A job for today, hopefully.

John

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Author Topic: Scott flame licker build (Read 176859 times)

lordedmond

lordedmond

lordedmond