Heron's Aeolipile

[Divided he ad]

Remember you Steve.... Still in awe of your water pressure engine!!!!!   



Too cold! How cold is it? .... Bout 3-5'C here.... I spend the winter in the shop and the spring/summer out enjoying myself  ;D   

Hopefully he will get through his issues and carry on designing/building these fun little artworks.



I'll look forward to the new projects in the spring.... until then feel free to comment all you like on my stuff 



Ralph.

[Brass_Machine]

Ralph
Remember me?....LOL. I'm the guy who builds em without drawings. I completely understand the desire to work through the idea.

To my surprise, Karsten did get at least part of out latest order to us this morning. I'm not sure what specific issues he's dealing with, but I certainly do worry about him.

I'm not doing much in the shop, at the moment. Cold weather has begun to shorten my stay out there. I'll probably spend the cold months indoors, lining up projects for this spring.

Thanks for the warm welcome
Steve

Hey Steve!

Welcome to our little corner of the interwebs!

Sent you a PM


Eric

[Divided he ad]

Right then! A bit less of this   (   ) and a bit more on the Aeolipile....

Tonights (well this mornings too!!) offering...... The start of the cutting tool to make the die.


To start with, a piece of 1/2" gauge plate (from an anonymous benefactor   ) is cut into an approx 55mm square (approx because it was cut with a hacksaw!) This photo taken on a break 'cause I was knackered!!!... Supprised it's not blurred with the heavy breathing going on!



A hole was then drilled through the centre to allow the use of an arbour (8mm with an M8 thread on the end).



Once all that was done the corners were removed with the hacksaw and then the turning to exact size could begin.



The blank is left at 51mm dia' to be sized correctly in the next step.


The compound slide is then altered to 3' (from here on ' is the symbol for degrees). The blank is now turned to size using the compound to create the cutting angle required.







Next, the holder for the cutter as started from a piece of 25mm stainless I had in stock.

First turn the shank to 16mm (the largest collet I have for my mill)



Then holding the part in the rotary table, it is centered and the RT set to 0' (important to know this for later) and a slot is cut 35mm deep.



a test fit....Sorry about the blur!



The RT is then turned on it's side and the work piece rotated 90' to allow for drilling. the first hole is for the main locating pin to go through the centre hole in the cutter (8mm) The offcut of gauge plate is used to help minimize any flex when drilling.


The pin inserted. the top hole for the clamping screw can now be drilled. The first hole is through all parts with the 4.3mm tapping drill. Then 5.1mm clearance drill through the top hole of the holder and cutter stopping short of the lower hole that is to be tapped M5. A recess for the 8mm head of the screw is added to allow the head to be sunk but still clamp the cutter.




The part is rotated 180' and the holes tapped M5x.8



The screws are added, the top one a standard M5x20 stainless cap head. The lower one is modified to make it's body 8mm dia and be used as the locating pin.
(might have to re-engineer this bit so it clamps aswell?.... Probably best!?)



So then what you have is a close to finished tool.... Just needs hardening and tempering and a little jiggery pokery with a file for relief on the non cutting side.... Might try all that today?






Any comments like "there is a much easier way" will not be taken totally to heart.... I'm happy so far  




Ralph.

[Darren]

I'm intrigued in what you are going to do with this cutter? At first i thought you where making a 50mm sheet metal hole cutter, (which  could have lent you)

But it seems not....this must be for something else...shall watch with interest...

[CrewCab]

WOW   ..............  I see the "classes" are paying off; better get mi'self booked in  

Seriously ..........  nice engineering Ralph ............ keep it coming.

CC

[Divided he ad]

Darren, 

Basically I'm intendind to bore a dome into a piece of mild steel !!    Like a big dapping block (with only one dome) Then I will use the punch to press the brass/copper/bronze disc onto the hemisphere I require and hopefully it will all end happily ever after?!?!

CC,

It is yet to be proved that the classes are paying off..... But it sure feels like they are     



We shall see......



Ralph.

[Darren]

Interesting,

Be even more interesting to see it work, fingers crossed at this end....

[CrewCab]

Basically I'm intending to bore a dome into a piece of mild steel !!   

Ralph,
As your going to be pressing bits of drink cans and then thin copper sheet does the die really need to be mild steel ............. IIRC over on 'tother site, Rich used Oak for his copper boiler and that seemed to work fine ............  or is it that your press takes "no prisoners" 

CC

[bogstandard]

Ralph,

I thought you were making a round punch for stamping out the blanks, I didn't see this idea in your plans. After it has been hardened, I can grind the cutting edge and forward face relief on for you.

As Dave suggested, look for maybe a slightly softer material for the die if you are going to try to cut it with a tool like that, and remove as much redundant material before starting the cut. I suspect your mill will have a little trouble with a cutting surface as large as that, but it is certainly worth trying.

Only suggestions by the way, it's your great project.

BTW, isn't that gauge plate easy to cut? 

John

[Divided he ad]

Ok, So I've had me chips p#*sed on a bit... No matter I am assuming that all work will be salvageable!!

I can easily make it from aluminium... I have a nice big block of that too.

I planned to basically incrementally cut the shape out of the block then use this to blend the edges to the final dome... Still only 5 hours gone ehh!! 

Back to the drawing board!!   



Onward and upward!! 



Ralph.

[Divided he ad]

Well it looks like a master plan.... Or two have arrived... Salvation (well salvage) of the tool is on going and looking good 

I've been in a two man conference with John Boggie and we.... He has a solution to my problem.... It will cut an internal dome/hemisphere! 




Ralph.

[Powder Keg]

Starting to look Scarry Ralpg I can't wait to see what it does

Wes

[Divided he ad]

Aww no worries Wes, it'll all work out one way or another 


I will hopefully be seeing John soon and get a few lessons too 




Watch this space 



Erm.... Ralpg!!!

Or Ralph if you like 

[Circlip]

Ralph, yer ball turner can turn an external rad, why can't it turn an INTERNAL one?

 Blank diameter, rough estimate, the ball you have already turned, and this is going to work for any circular form punches you make, if you consider the cross section, the developed blank is half the circumferance of the ball.

 You MAY have to anneal the Copper a couple of times, and don't forget a reasonable radius on the top edge of the Die. Just had another thought,why are you making a female form anyway? Try a Ring die first, again,decent rad on top internal edge and use a lubricant.
   Regards   Ian.

 And sorryto be a PITA but wern't it Hero ?

[Divided he ad]

Hi Ian,

Problems with the ball turner are few in my eyes but in reallity the internal cutting capabilities are not quire what they could be...  The tool can only cut as deep as the tip due to the leg it stands on getting in the way, also the piece being hollowed must fit over the turret else it is a no go.

Got you on the blank bit... I'll give it a go when I reach the stage. Thank you.

The choice to make a female form was mine, I went through all the ways with John and decided I liked this one! .... What can I say I like the challenge! Even if it is proving to be a little difficult, I sure am learning lots on the way through! 


I'll refer you to the link I think I posted earlier .... I suppose it depends on who told you about him first ehh?? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero_of_Alexandria


Hope that answers all? .... I Know I don't always take the easiest or even correct path, but I do enjoy myself all the way there        




Ralph.

[Divided he ad]

Well it's been a long (ish ) day and there has been a great result.... Hopefully it will stand the next test?


I spent most of the day with John in his grotto making a form tool and the die for my hemispere making punch thingy me bob....

It went a little like this....

We started with a little instruction into what we would like to achive, John had been planning whilst enjoying his coffee    it was not to hard to get to grips with, just make a tool to make this happen!!

The tool blank that I had produced earlier in the month was to be re-designed and put to use as a form tool to be used in the lathe.

So here are the pic's and a little description of what was going on....

The tool was held in an arbour and the rear was cut amay to avoid it hindering the tool when inserted into the workpiece.


It was then hardened (I have a little video on this which I will sort out and post ASAP)

Then the tool was re-fitted to the arbour and a tool post grinder was used to grind a 20'  relief angle to the rear of the cutting edge


that was then given a little polishing.


A chip breaker was then ground into the front face of the blank and it was cut through slightly off centre (pound coin for size ref') the right hand piece is to be used as the tool.



Then I got to use the surface grinder.... Interesting process of getting a really smooth highly accurate finish in hardened metals. (Some video of this too... I will get them posted soon.)




The tool was then cut again this time the back edge was removed.... A crap 0 cad will be added here ASAP as I forgot to get pic's with the excitement! Sorry.


Now to the die....

A 65x65x50mm Aluminium block was held in the self centring 4 jaw and the front 20mm was rounded off...

This allows easy form tool alignment later and also provides means of clamping the die to the press bed.

A 5mm hole was drilled through the centre and then the centre was opened out to 25mm with  a couple of blacksmiths drills.


Then the fun starts.... The first step, increnmental cuts were taken, to rough out the shape of the dome required.


Then the form tool (held in a QCTP holder) was used to create the final shape.
Another video.... Yes I will sort them out ... It's just too late now!!


The final result....



and punch head in position....


We did try a steel version just after this, but as the steel came from a garage door weight and had an unbeliveably hard part in it, it ate a huge chunk out half way down the form tool!!!!! It was working quite well untill super hard bit reared it's head!

So if this doesn;t work for whatever reason.... It's purchase time of some better free cutting mild steel and make another form tool!   



Well that's it for this evening, I've learnt all sorts of interesting stuff tonight, and used a few machines that I have never had the chance to before.... I know you hate this bit John but Thank you all the same    I'd have not got anywhere near this far without your help and entusiasm 


I will sort the vid's out and get them posted ASAP.

I'll also get a few bits made up this week hopefully and then put all this work to the test.


Good night!


Ralph.

[Bernd]

Hey Ralph,

Nice bit of "tool room" work you done there with the help of the Bogster.   

Bernd

[Brass_Machine]

John & Ralph...   

Eric

[bogstandard]

I would just like to add a little bit to this part.

It is very difficult to operate totally new machinery to what a person is used to, but Ralph took it in his stride and had a go, with me looking over his shoulder like a mother hen.

It was nice just to get back into the shop, to show and explain to someone who has a thirst for machining and fitting knowledge. It took a lot longer than expected, mainly because I had to take pee and rest breaks fairly frequently, plus I was making sure I explained the processes thoroughly.

If it wasn't for the unexpected lump of tungsten hard stuff in the middle of the material, Ralph would have achieved two perfect dies. But now the process has been explained to Ralph in full, I would expect him to be able to reproduce what we did with the ali one in steel in about 3 to 4 hours, and be left with the knowledge that larger or smaller dies like this can easily be reproduced.

I also think I have a convert to my going overboard with DRO's on the lathe. Ralph didn't have to look at the machine dials once. He just let the DRO's guide him along the way. A bit of eyeball setting up of the tool, a little scrapbook calculation, and he was on his way.

Well done Ralph, especially on you teaching me how someone can survive on just plain water and choccies, it has to be seen to be believed. Nearly as bad as my fetish for jammy doughnuts and coffee. But what is life without a bit of shameless indulgence (even though it is bad for you at times).

You are welcome any time.

John

[Divided he ad]

Well it was a lot of fun John 

A tool post grinder and maybe a surface grinder and I'd be able to re-do the work at home.... I could do a bit of a rough and ready version though..... But I think the tool post grinder would be a must!

The DRO's are really easy to use and get exactly what you want from the machine.... When times are not so hard (job secure etc) I'll look to invest I think. Most useful! 

Survival.... I'm not to bad at that John, A huge breakfast at 10:30 without too much excersise in between will keep me going for a long, long time.... I wonder why I'm not a rake?!.... Probably all the sweets 

Can't wait now to get it setup and have a go!!! 


Eric, Bernd Thank you .... Most of the credit for this bit belongs to Bog's, the loan of your machines is very selfless and trusting 


Enjoy a dohnut (or two!) today if you have any left John.... You've earnt it. 



Ralph.

[Darren]

Excellent work, can't wait to see the vids......fingers crossed for you for the final test....

[Divided he ad]

Sorry for not getting the videos sorted.... Been a little busy.... and then been trying to remember that there is much more to life than money!

Anyway.....

I got a little time in the shop tonight and this is the result... Not too positive but time will prevail!! (I hope!)

First drilled the punch and fitted a centring pin, the ball needs a hole top and bottom, might as well help centre the disc.




Then mounted the die and punch using the centre pin to aid this.




Ignore the brass bit for now, that was a but after setup!!

Now I tried a piece of thin ali can and it just split! So I decided to have a go at a piece of annealled brass.
A 1mm thick circle that was donated by John was the first test.... Not really thin enough! But worth a try!!


So back to the part you see in the above set up pic's... A piece of 0.5mm thick brass engraving plate (it's all I had!)
Well it was not the best result!




So I think I need to go a little thinner!

The Ali die is holding up to the tests well though, even though it has left a polished mark there is no feelable (I trust my fingers to find imperfections and there were none evident)  damage to the die after the folding piece was removed.



I'll order some thinner plate and have a go at a few with that.... See how it goes, Now the question is should I use copper as it is softer and more sympathetic to my needs?
Or should I try and stick to brass??

Decisions, decisions!!!

Your turn guys, lets hear what you would do at this point?



Ralph.

[HS93]

I watched a program on the tv recently and they did stamping in stages, they seemed to do a pre shape then do the finnal stamp, I made some small vents for a moddel boat some time ago and I found the size and shape of the material was very important.I also found the thicknes important , to thin caused more problems than to thick. I did it in stages but it did not make much of a difference

Peter

[Darren]

Ralph, might a bit/a lot of heat help?

maybe the die as well as the metal.

Darren

[bogstandard]

Ralph,

As I said in our discussions about these things, timing and materials are of the essence. So hang fire a bit.

I was only talking to a chappie called Stew, who I have only recently met, and he comes from my local area, in fact about 1/2 mile away.

Well he seems to be a sort of specialist on this type of pressing, from his days at at a local MOD bomb factory, where he looked after machines that made munitions cases.
He has seen your post about when we made the die block, and came up with a couple of suggestions to me, and now looking at your results, his comments were spot on. But I am not going to tell you what they were, as that would spoil all the fun.

But I will contact him, and ask him to join the forum and give you some pointers that I know are way beyond my experience with this sort of thing.

Even if it doesn't work in the long run, all is not lost. You still have a perfect former if you want to go down the metal spinning route.

John