Author Topic: Digital Readout Question  (Read 13610 times)

Offline ibuildstuff4u

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Digital Readout Question
« on: November 20, 2010, 09:29:52 PM »
I just broke my 2" dial indicator that I use on my lathe bed to measure the Z axis and am thinking about replacing it with this digital readout.  Has any one used something like this on their lathe and will it stand up to chips???
http://www.grizzly.com/products/12-Remote-Digital-Readout-Inch-Metric-Fraction/T23012

Also does anyone know where I can get just the gauge with out the scale?  I tried to search the web and found nothing.

Thanks for the help!

Dale P.

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Digital Readout Question
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2010, 03:30:13 AM »
Now trust me on this one, no matter how much people have had success using them, any sign of swarf or liquid can really chew them up or stop them working. Unless you can make up guards to protect them completely from everything, you will be onto a loser.

I struggled for about three years, continually drying off, cleaning out and carrying spares and continually changing batteries, and they were protected as best as could be done, before I took the plunge and went for the more expensive glass scale setups. You would be half way thru a critical job, and the damned things would decide not to work properly. One of the most frustrating times in my engineering career.

Save your money and buy yourself a new dial indicator.

You can buy readouts for connecting to the normal outputs from digiverns, digimics and cheapo scales, and in the UK cost around 30 pounds.
The bottom of this page.

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Measurement/Digital-Readouts

I actually still use a scale and readout like shown in the link above, but it is way up on the head of my mill, for measuring quill movement, out of the way of the nasties, and the readout box has been much modified to run from mains power for scale and box, so no more battery changes, and I STILL have trouble with the connection plug between the two units, so when I eventually get too pi**ed off with it, they will get hard wired together.


Bogs
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Offline DMIOM

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Re: Digital Readout Question
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2010, 04:28:14 AM »
Basically, I would just second everything Bogs has said.

I had a couple of the "digital scales" on a medium-sized bench mill, but they suffered from swarf or liquid ingress, and the damn plug was not secure (although an inelegant blob of hot melt glue did help). Even on the quill, the plug would eventually loose connection (although I have a Mitu. "Quillstar" which, despite similar appearance, is much more robust but is self-contained).

As soon as I could afford it, I refitted my manual mill with glass scales and a Sino display.

I do, though, still have a couple of these scales in use - but not for X or Y where they are critical. The main one is on my bigger CNC mill which has 3-axis control but the Z is only the quill. I have added a digital scale and remote readout to the knee, but the scale hides behind a rubber curtain, the plug is glued-in, and the readout is positioned at head-height pretty well out of range of splashes & swarf. Despite remembering (mostly!) to switch off when I have finished with the machine, they do still run out of batteries without warning; but since its main use is when tool-changing, if it stops I am unlikely to actually spoil a workpiece.

Dave

Offline raynerd

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Re: Digital Readout Question
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2010, 05:17:23 AM »
Got three of these on my mil -  http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=1278.0l:
 
Two were from ArcEuro and then one was kindly sold to me very cheap from a friend after one broke after swarf and oil got into it - http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Measurement/Digital-Readouts

After that one broke, I put a cover over them and they have been great. Plugged them into a Shumatech (http://www.shumatech.com/) and they give a clear read-out and no longer need batteries as they run on the display power.


Offline Ned Ludd

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Re: Digital Readout Question
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2010, 07:00:48 AM »
Hi Dale,
I'll second Bogs and Dave, the only good thing about those scales is that they taught me the benefit of having a DRO fitted to my mill. The connections are suspect at best and they are liable to "crash" just at the most critical time. Learn from our mistakes and go straight to a proper system, or buy another DTI and go back to what you had.
Ned
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Offline ibuildstuff4u

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Re: Digital Readout Question
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2010, 09:39:04 AM »
Thanks for the replies.  I had a feeling that the scales would be a problem with the coolant and swarf.  It's a shame as the units are cheap to pick up.  I could add a two axis DRO to my lathe for under $100.00 with shipping included.

My lathe is a 9X20 and my mill is a small X2 so adding glass scales to these little machines is out of the question.  I will save my money for larger equipment in the future and just keep using the graduated dials and dial indicators to keep track of my movment.

I will still add a 12" scale to my Z axis on the mill as the scale can be mounted out of harms way and it's the hardest axis for me to set up an indicator to.

Thanks again for the help,

Dale P.

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Digital Readout Question
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2010, 01:45:15 PM »
Don't get me wrong Dale, for some people, scales like you mentioned are the only way for some people to afford a basic DRO system.

If you never used liquids on your machines, and kept everything spotlessly clean, plus fitted good guards, you might get a reasonable, but relatively short lived system. You only have to look at how quickly cheap digiverns can go bottoms up, and they are usually kept fairly well propected and clean.

Once you have used DRO's though, you would never want to go back to manual methods.


Bogs
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Offline kwackers

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Re: Digital Readout Question
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2010, 01:54:49 PM »
I had cheap Chinese scales fitted to my lathe for years with no problems - basically you have to protect them!

Take a look at glass scales, they fit inside a U tube whose opening is at the bottom (thus protected from ingress from above), and have a set of wipers around that opening to prevent anything being flicked up. If you mount them in the 'recommended' mounts then you add a further U tube to help prevent crap getting in.
When I mounted my Chinese scales to my lathe I used exactly the same mechanisms to make them 'crap-tight'.

Since I've got rid of that lathe I've since moved over to glass scales on my mill (apart from the quill which is a Chinese scale) and the lathe has a magnetic strip on the cross slide because it's smaller and doesn't foul anything and also has no mechanical coupling between the read head and the strip so I can easily remove the cross slide for cleaning etc.

Having used both (with a Shumatech DRO) the only advantage the glass scales have is they're more resistant to 'jitter', on the other hand the Chinese scales seem more robust (not that I've broken a glass one yet) and narrower making them easier to fit in some locations.

I'd highly recommend the Shumatech DRO - it allows both types of scales to be used simultaneously so you can pick and choose whatever suits.

Offline Jonny

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Re: Digital Readout Question
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2010, 07:37:33 PM »
If its any use i fitted those vernier type scales to the small mill around 10 years ago.
I made the effort to cover in aluminium angle so no debri or liquids could get at them, how wrong was i. Even got aluminium in the open sockets protected from above.

This was when a 24" was over £130 exactly the same as first post from Arc Eurotrade. Three scales for 3 axis and a Warc digital 3 axis readout amounted to £330. Price has dropped the last 6 years but still pointless. Todays pricing looking around £280.
Just ordered a proper 3 axis for the new lathe 650 travel and magnetic strip for cross, the tailstock will come later £437 delivered or would be about £450 for 3 axis in th estandard C type glass scales and covers- no contest had them on the bigger mill for 4 year snow no probs from Allendale.

All three scales packed up several times over plus the intermitant failure to power on whilst connected to Warco. Had to buy batteries in bulk lasted approx 2 to 3 weeks each SR44.
Plug leads useless as well.
Coolant or spot liquids kill. Usually three repairs then scrap. Some verniers are the same electronics, bought a few when on offer at Aldi £5 to replace the units, still packed up in no time.

Total waste of money.

Also noticed none of above piccies are using on Z axis in true sense, why not off the quill thats where the fine feed is!

Offline ibuildstuff4u

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Re: Digital Readout Question
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2010, 09:42:44 PM »
I'm taking some night school classes and all of the machines have DRO's on them.  They are really nice to use, but I almost feel like I'm cheating when I use them.  Sometimes feel that I should master using the marks on the hand cranks and the use of indicators first, but I'm sure 99.9% of the machine shops out there have DRO's on all of their machines and it would be better to know how to use them rather than old school methods.  It still feels like I'm cheating.

Glass scales are out of the question for my little machines so I will just get a new 2" dial indicator for the lathe.  Some day I will get some bigger machines and put DRO's on them but for now my methods will do.  I will probably add a scale to the Z axis on my mill as it can be mounted out of the way and stay clean, but the rest of the axises are just too hard to protect as I use a lot of coolant when cutting.
  
Jonny,  The reason you don't see Z axis scales on the quill is because the X2 mill doesn't have one.  The column is the only part that moves in the Z axis so it's the only place to put the scale.

Thanks again for all of the help, Dale P.

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Digital Readout Question
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2010, 10:17:14 PM »
Jonny,

I have two Z axis on my mill. I class the knee as Z1 and is a glass scale, and the quill, Z2, which is a digivern type scale.

I only ever use the quill for drilling to depth, never to put a cut on, as the more you extend the quill, the less rigid it becomes.

I know it might be nitpicking, but every little bit helps in the search for good surface finishes, and lack of rigidity is one of the main causes of machining marks.


Quill scale. Ignore the missing battery cover, this shot was taken to show the capacitor across the battery terminal which should be done if powering the scale externally, as you are liable to get readout fluctuations if you don't.




Knee scale




Display, showing readouts from both.




Bogs




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Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: Digital Readout Question
« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2010, 11:03:57 PM »
While there is no replacement for quality scales, the el cheapo digital scale version is decent enough to get by on. I have an X2 as well. I can't see pay more for my DRO than my mill. When the day comes and I get a larger mill, then yes, a decent glass scale DRO will go on it. But for now, my digital scales does the job. I have had this setup for several years. I have never had a problem with them either.

The big thing to remember, they are what they are. Keep them clean and well protected and you won't have many (if any) problems.

Would I put them on Bog's knee mill? Nope. X2? Sure. 3 axes for under $100?? why not.

Eric
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Offline picclock

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Re: Digital Readout Question
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2010, 02:46:18 AM »
I've got three dro readouts on my mill. So far so good. I mounted them in such a way that the readouts can be seen without a remote box. Its not brilliant as some bits can obscure the readings but for hobby work a good and low cost solution.

As I was fitting them I noticed that some of the flexible rubber guards which sit at the ends of the read head were missing. These prevent cr*p from geting between the read head and the ruler. I fitted these with cut pieces of old heat shrink tubeing which seems to work well, scraping the smallest pieces of swarf from the rule.

http://s917.photobucket.com/albums/ad19/picclock/DRO%20calipers/

(I did post about this before but I think was lost in the site outage)

If you are going to use these with a remote readout I would think it essential to seal the cable connection with hot melt or similar, silicon rubbers contain acids so probably best to avoid them.

Battery life on mine has been OK, but I notice that as it gets colder they seem to need replacing more often. In the summer I did not replace any  but I've noticed that even with my handheld ones they flash if its been very cold. It may be that the battery voltage drops with temperature, or the voltage sensor in the scales is temperature sensitive.

Having said that I wouldn't be without them. You can make everything more accurately and much more quickly with instant unit conversion and backlash accounted for.

Best Regards

picclock

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Offline BillTodd

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Re: Digital Readout Question
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2010, 07:16:59 AM »
I had two cheap digital verniers on my old SB9 lathe for quite a while and have since  fitted them, and a third, on to my drill-mill. I'd have to agree with John about the importance of keeping swarf and coolant out (and way-oil as well) some kind of cover is essential.

I have hard-wired the reader heads to 2m  long leads that plug into to a home-made an PC interface so I've also removed the display parts from the scales and covered the reader heads in screening foil. The scales are powered from the interface.

 I have a dedicated PC running as a DRO display, running a Visual Basic application giving Metric/Inch and fractional inch read outs simultaneously (which I find really useful)

I've published details on various forums, but if any one is interested I can always post them here.

Bill
« Last Edit: November 22, 2010, 07:22:25 AM by BillTodd »
Bill

Offline Jonny

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Re: Digital Readout Question
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2010, 04:49:45 PM »
See now Dale but do they not have a fine feed.
Both of these have
http://www.chesteruk.net/store/cobra_mill.htm
http://www.chesteruk.net/store/conquest_mill.htm

I will be installing a 3 axis DRO on the M300 in two to three weeks, one conventional glass for X and a magentic for the Y and tailstock supposed to be more coolant proof.

As said before i did 3 axis with scales with more protection than the glass scales and C type covers offer, everyone packed up. Metals bounce and get every where. They had the wipers as well.

I have seen many fitments to Z axis where owners have used the depth stop and wonder why they get different and inaccurate readings, need to come off the quill :coffee:

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Digital Readout Question
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2010, 10:46:21 PM »
There will always be arguments for and against almost everything, and of course, depth of pockets comes into the equation.

In fact, I would love to fit the Newall read heads, they work in a totally different way, but for me, way beyond my finances. I already have seven glass read heads, and some time next year, that should grow to nine, when my small surface grinder gets a couple during it's refurbish.

If I had continued to use the scale type, I am sure that I would have spent the same sort on money as I have already spent on the glass scale systems, purely due to failure of the units. These ones I have haven't missed a beat since they have been fitted.

How you operate your machine also has a great bearing on the longevity of the digiscale type. Most home model engineers rarely use flood coolant or even any lube or coolant at all, but if you do, then digiscales are at risk of failure, the same goes if yours is a cold and damp shop, they will play up at the least excuse. So if you can keep them warmish, swarf protected and bone dry, then you stand a good chance of having a reasonable life expectancy out of them, if you can't, then I really do feel sorry for you.

Digiscales use a metal to metal contact in their workings, and are not even water resistant, and that is their downfall, whereas glass scales, even though they have mechanical workings inside (for support of the optical read head), their method of operation is purely optical with zero contact between the read head and the etched glass scale, plus if covers are used, they are in fact very well protected.
 
But even though good, they still have their weaknesses. A heavy jolt whilst in use or whilst fitting can render them useless if the optical head flexes on its mounting and then hits the glass scale. Luckily that has never happened to me, but it can happen. How the cables hang can cause weepage into the main casing over time, so you sometimes have to swap the read heads around inside so that you get the cables coming out at the lowest point, I had to do that when fitting the large glass scale to the Z axis on my mill. They have to be mounted thou perfect to get long life out of them etc etc. So they are not perfect, just that they are the best that are available for the price at this time.

Eventually and hopefully, all will be like the Newall system, which can actually be used under water if needed, but until that happens, we are stuck with what we can afford.

Dale mentioned about feeling guilty using DRO's. I have no such qualms, and neither should you Dale. They are a natural progression in manual machining, just like having HSS and tungsten tooling, when in the past all we had was carbon to work with. Wigglers and edge finders took over from the cigarette paper, and small home shop mills replaced vertical slides on the lathe.
Eventually, I would expect all machines to have them ready fitted at the factory, as is happening now on the slightly more expensive home machines.

I am sure everyone would enjoy not having to take into account the backlash present in all our machines, and having a method of achieving 0.0001" (0.0005" in the case of digiscales) accuracy as standard, rather than the accepted 0.002", without even having to think about it.

Bogs
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Offline picclock

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Re: Digital Readout Question
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2010, 05:07:09 AM »
Hi Bogs

"Digiscales use a metal to metal contact in their workings,"

I don't think you are correct there. They work by measuring the change of capacitance between metal fingers under the read head and the spacing of an etched copper pattern on a strip of fibreglass on the rule. There is no metal contact. Most errors are likely down to swarf or lubricant getting in between the head fingers and the rule, causing a local change of capacitance and altering the reading.

A clear piece of plastic sheet (acrylic) covering the rule and head improves this. Ensuring the ruler wipers are in place will also help a great deal. If you have a remote readout covering them with metal would be better, protecting against mechanical fumbles (I'm born climsy  :hammer:) as well as ingress of cr*p, and you don't have to use batteries.

I already managed to break the display window on my 30" DRO  :( and made a new one from a CD case ::), so metal and cr*p proof is clearly best IMHO.

picclock

Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)

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Re: Digital Readout Question
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2010, 06:20:15 AM »
I modified my cheap scales before mounting on the mill (X2).
This involved removing the LCD display, switches and plastic housing.
I made up an insulating cover from FR4 material and protective cover from aluminium. In the aluminium cover I built in some brushes to wipe off any swarf.
So far, so good.

I agree with Bogs that having swarf get in and cause damage is only a matter of time.
I've seen some cheap glass scales that have much better swarf/liquid protection at a price pretty close to the cheap digital scales so I'll install these if/when the cheap scales fail.

Offline Bogstandard

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Re: Digital Readout Question
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2010, 06:37:17 AM »
Have a look at the edge of the scale, there is, when you disassemble, a spring bronze wiper strip. You will find that metal tensioner plays a fairly important role in keeping the thing working, and was always one of the quickie tweaks I did to get the scale working again. Clean the edges down and retensioning on that resulted in about a 50% recovery rate.
The other area is the finger edges of the board, there is a loose rubberised/graphite block connection to the display. It generally isn't the board going down (except for battery failure), that normally carries on working, it is that physical joint that gets wet, and that was the second place to try in an attempt to get them working, by cleaning off with methylated spirits.

So I still reckon it is a mechanical method of operation, even though it uses a bar counting system for the actual measurement.

But anyway, that is all beside the wayside. You just have to protect them as best as you can.

Bogs
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Offline Ned Ludd

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Re: Digital Readout Question
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2010, 07:38:29 AM »
One should not feel guilty about using DROs any more than when using any other measuring instrument, do you feel guilty using a vernier caliper or micrometer? DROs are just built in 'micrometers'!
You can work very well without but, if you can afford to, why would you?
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Offline Jasonb

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Re: Digital Readout Question
« Reply #20 on: November 28, 2010, 08:29:40 AM »
I ditched the cheaper scales that were on my mill this summer and am a lot happier with the glass scales. The cheap ones would often show an error when switched on, have flat batteries and towards the end the x axis had a nasty habbit of adding 0.200" to the reading part way through a job.

One other problem I found with the remote readouts is that they have a handy magnet so you can mount them easily, the downside is that if you machine iron castings on a regular basis as I do then this magnet draws very fine iron dust inside the display box and causes problems with the readout.

I bought a 3 axis display but just the X&Y scales, will be getting the Z axis in a couple of weeks at Sandown show as I have something comming up where I want to use the Arc function to put a radius along the corner of a part. 

The other thing with the proper DRO readout is the ease of things like PCD drilling and spacing holes along a line. I don't think their is anything wrong with using a DRO, its a case of where do you draw the line - only use a traditional vernier calliper or a digital one, etc

Jason