Wiggler wobbler call it what you like.......

[John Rudd]

I bought my self a wiggler set from one of the usual engineering suppliers somewhile back...

I've just gotton round to using it to set up the back edge of my mill vice....

What a simple amazing bit of tooling(if you can call it that....)  

I dont know how I managed to do without it now I'm used used to using it...Setting up is a breeze.....

Makes aligning a work piece so easy and even more accurate now I have my scales on there........

Now I just need to master using the other bits for centring material in the 4j on the lathe..

If you havent got one, for the sake of a fiver, they are well worth it...

A suggestion for a Christmas stocking filler perhaps from a loved one?

[raynerd]

Is this the sort of thing you mean?



I`ve got one of these but never really understood how it is intended to be used!! Any advice or description of how you used it ... 

I believe it should be self explanitory when I mention it in a few conversations I have had...but sadly not to me 

[Bogstandard]

Try this

Bogs

[John Rudd]

Chris,

Yes that's the gizzmo....

The edge finder is the item with the ball at either end...Insert the larger end into the holder( adjust so that it is a loose fit), insert the holder into your chuck and tighten..

Now with your vice jaws open, adjust the X-Y position so that the vice is underneath the edge finder ball....With the mill running at a slow speed, watch the ball spin out of centre( centrifugal force causes this.... ), now bring the back edge of the vice towards the spinning ball (adjust the height of the machine head so that the edge finder is about 1/8 in aboce the base of the vice), as the vice jaw advances to the ball the circle it describes will reduce.

Once the ball is no longer spinning in a circle, it must be at the edge of the jaw...Now set your Y axis to Zero, then move the vice towards you by half of the diameter of the ball( mine was 1/4 in dia, ergo this would be 0.125 in)

At this point the vice jaw's edge should be central to the axis of the spindle....

It is now just a matter of positioning the work piece and making holes where you want them...


As you can imagine, it took me longer to type this than to set up my vice......


Centring  a pice of round bar in the 4j works on  a similar principle, except you use the probe with the pointed end and the holder held in the tailstock chuck...With the probe located on the centre mark of the bar, spin the lathe chuck manually and watch the circle described by the pointer...Adjust the jaws accordingly...

Some people may just want to use a dti instead....I find that tedious (and I'm impatient) which is why I bought a 4j s-c chuck...

Havent got round to working out the other bits yet..

Maybe one of the workshop sages could enlighten us ?  

[kwackers]

The far right bit is a DTI holder. The one next to it (I think) is more of the same as the ball holder - but with a smaller 'ball'.

I tend to use the pointy bit a lot, put it in the mill chuck run the mill and use a pencil to get it running straight. You can then use it to eyeball centre punch marks and edges - easily less than a thou.

[Ned Ludd]

Hi Guys,
As demonstrated in the video and in the written description the last part of the procedure has been omitted. You should proceed as described but don't stop when the ball appears to be running true, continue till the ball kicks sideways. Then you will have a repeatable setting with more accuracy.
Ned

[RichardShute]

Try this

vid

Bogs

My only question is: Was that the _real_ Tubal Cain? ME had a regular writer back in the 50's with that Nom de Plume, he's worn well if it's the same guy.

Richard

[Ned Ludd]

It most certainly is not the author "Tubal Cain" who was not only British, but English.
If we remember our quotations we will know that "the greatest prize in the lottery of life is to be born an Englishman."
Ned
PS always wanted a post that I could use that dancing banana on.

[Bogstandard]

His real name was Tom Walshaw, and he produced some very nice easy to learn books for beginners.

He was also a very competent engineer in his own right, and passed away a few years ago.

His pseudonym, Tubal Cain could almost be classed as the patron saint of metalworkers.


Bogs

[mklotz]

His pseudonym, Tubal Cain could almost be classed as the patron saint of metalworkers.

According to the Jews, he was the inventor of metalworking.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tubal-cain

[John Stevenson]

If we remember our quotations we will know that "the greatest prize in the lottery of life is to be born an Englishman."

There was another quotation that read "The sun never sets on the British Empire" as a reference to it being globally widespread.

In truth it's because you can't trust an Englishman in the dark.

John S.

[raynerd]

On the same theme of the centre finding of work, your post reminded me of this little gadget I saw being used on this vid:

Anyone know what the device being used is around 1 mins 50secs into the video??

[kwackers]

http://www.machine-dro.co.uk/index.php?target=products&product_id=295

I wanted to look at one at the show but they didn't have any...

[cidrontmg]

This new "Tubalcain" appears to be a retired shop teacher living in Illinois. He also seems to write his pseudonym like that. Mr. Walshaw wrote as "Tubal Cain". Not that you could tell the difference when spoken.

BTW. There were a while ago pictures and videos about Joachim Steinke“s edge finders in HMEM, in here
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=10633.0
They are just small ball bearings mounted to a bit of round steel. I "built" one, their simplicity is almost ridiculous. But the accuracy and ease of use are wonderful.
  

[Ned Ludd]

Hi Kwackers,
They work well enough, but they do take up a lot of table to quill height. I have only used mine twice, as other methods are just as easy if you have DROs.
Ned

[kwackers]

Hi Ned,

That's what I thought, although I have a fair amount of space under my mill if I drop the knee right down. I was hoping to fondle one at the Midlands show but it was not to be...
Accurately finding the centres of bars and bores is what attracted me to them, what methods do you know of for those using a DRO?

[Ned Ludd]

Hi Kwackers,
The set of edge finders I use most are;
http://www.mscjlindustrial.co.uk/SPU-13146L/SEARCH:KEYWORD/product.html
Take the audible part with a pince of salt, there is a small flat on the part that comes in contact with the work and just makes a small clicking noise. I  also use a Warco audible electronic edge finder, (if you buy one and it does not work, even after sending back for replacement, put the batteries in the wrong way round to make it work, the instructions are WRONG). That takes care of the edges and the 1/2 button on the DRO takes care of the centring.
I could live without my 1/2 button but I would be very reluctant to do so.
If you do not have a proper DRO system, as opposed to simple digital scales, the procedure is to find the edge, set that scale to zero, then find opposite edge and use the 1/2 button to get the centre. You don't even have to worry about the size of the edge finder, as it is the same from both sides.
Ned

[Bogstandard]

I use a coaxial one a lot. But because the height of my RT plus chuck is fairly high, I actually made some shorter probes. I have had no trouble with mine at all and it is very accurate. It is the easiest thing I have come across for getting things spot on.

It replaces a normal DTI for finding the centre of holes. Normally you have to have a rubber neck or a mirror to see the DTI as it turns, whereas the coax one puts everything in easy view, and you just twiddle the machine knobs whilst it is turning until you get no runout indicated.


Bogs

[RichardShute]

On the same theme of the centre finding of work, your post reminded me of this little gadget I saw being used on this vid:


Anyone know what the device being used is around 1 mins 50secs into the video??

It's a co-axial centre finder. I'm not sure if there is a generic name, but various trade names Centricator is one and Co-Ax I think is another. I have a Centricator and like it, in particular because it has the DTI out the side so takes up less height. It also cleverly works for inside holes, outside shafts and on flat faces all without any re-configuration other than moving the probe in its friction mount.

Richard

[kwackers]

Nice... So nice I looked them up, then I saw the price!



http://www.measureshop.biz/en/measuring-instruments/dial-bore-and-depth-gauges/centring-devices/centricator-centring-device.html
http://www.michael-deckel.de/index.php?page=1019&language=uk

On the same theme of the centre finding of work, your post reminded me of this little gadget I saw being used on this vid:


Anyone know what the device being used is around 1 mins 50secs into the video??

It's a co-axial centre finder. I'm not sure if there is a generic name, but various trade names Centricator is one and Co-Ax I think is another. I have a Centricator and like it, in particular because it has the DTI out the side so takes up less height. It also cleverly works for inside holes, outside shafts and on flat faces all without any re-configuration other than moving the probe in its friction mount.

Richard

[andyf]

Nice... So nice I looked them up, then I saw the price!

http://www.measureshop.biz/en/measuring-instruments/dial-bore-and-depth-gauges/centring-devices/centricator-centring-device.html
http://www.michael-deckel.de/index.php?page=1019&language=uk

You can get them cheaper (and no doubt less precise):
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2060&category=1261091193

Andy

[kwackers]

Yeah, they were the one's I was originally looking at. But look at the one in the michael decker link I posted. It just looks like a 'proper' piece of engineering...

I reckon making one might be the way forward. I don't have a clue how they work, but I've got a few ideas that might be worth a shot. In particular I reckon with the use of modern sensors it might be possible to build an electronic version that is much shallower...

[John Stevenson]

Hi Ned,

That's what I thought, although I have a fair amount of space under my mill if I drop the knee right down. I was hoping to fondle one at the Midlands show but it was not to be...
Accurately finding the centres of bars and bores is what attracted me to them, what methods do you know of for those using a DRO?

I have one and hate it, you spend all day winding up and down. also if the head isn't trammed in precisely so and with a Bridgeport that's all the time with the licorice head 0,0 at 8" reach isn't the same 0,0 at 2" reach.

Find a centre of a bore with a DRO.

Insert cutter [ any size within reason ] into collet backwards, shank sticking out.
Centralise in bore by eye [ preferably good eye ]
Wind in one axis only, say x so cutter shank just touches bore, spindle not running and use fag paper if needed, zero DRO.
Wind to the opposite side and repeat but don't zero, instead press X then the 1/2 button and you will bet the central reading, travle so it reads 0.00 for that azis and lock off.

Repeat on Y axis

Remember to turn cutter round the proper way.

Find centre of a round shaft for drilling or keyway, no tooling, DRO's gauges, etc needed.

Fit cutter into collet, centre on shaft by eye, good eye again, then bring down with spindle running so it kisses the work, retract and look at the tool mark.



That pip on the left has been put on the shaft using gauges, DRO, Joderell Bank telescope and a Kray computer so it's spot on.

The pip on the right has been put on after the axis has been moved sideways by 0.001" and you can see it's off centre.

Sooo the MK1 eyeball CAN work to a thou.

John S.

[cidrontmg]

Joachim Steinke has also built a "centricator", although it might not be his best tool idea. But it could be easily made better (more accurate), with a clock, or some electronic means. For ideas,
http://www.metallmodellbau.de/Zentrierhilfe.php
use Google translator to get it in English (sort of).

[Ned Ludd]

Hi Kwackers,
The mechanism is quite simple but if it had been designed around a lever type DTI instead of a dial one, the whole thing could have been made much shorter. Also if the thing had been made to have a rack style adjustment for differing size measurements, the very long styli would not have been needed, either. There is room for the quick witted home engineer to make a very serviceable indicator, once the workings are understood.
If only people would stop bothering me with things they want made or repaired, I could shortening me Tuit list by one or two per cent and do a re-design myself, maybe next year or the year after.
Ned

[Jonny]

Used to use the wiggler type up to 12 year ago, got another one and never used it in 10 years.

Then went on to the digital light up type and never looked back. However dont use all the time for centring plate or bar etc a milling cutter works just as well. Great if you dont want to mark the outer edges if using a cutter.
Find they really come in to their own when aligning vices in conjunction with DRO or scales.
This vid shows a dfferent mechanical type and look very easy to use plus made well. Later in the digital but i have that exact same one plus another better one and both says do not spin. If you spin it and finding edge on aluminiums, it will pick up and gouge the job edge very quickly build up the tip and throw a wobbler scrapping it.

I did import one of these from California around 7 years ago may be more before they were well known.

Bought it around £60 tried it and never used again, ok for plate work centring above holes thats it. You have to zero them as well with three screws.

[Ned Ludd]

Hi Guys,
We are of course forgetting the other form of edge finder, which is the centring microscope like the one from Hemingway Kits; http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/Centering_Microscope.html. If I get around to finishing mine, that will be another couple of per cent off my tuit list.
Ned

[RichardShute]

Yeah, they were the one's I was originally looking at. But look at the one in the michael decker link I posted. It just looks like a 'proper' piece of engineering...

I reckon making one might be the way forward. I don't have a clue how they work, but I've got a few ideas that might be worth a shot. In particular I reckon with the use of modern sensors it might be possible to build an electronic version that is much shallower...

I came across the link you quoted a month or two ago and as someone (JS??) pointed out that supplier specialises in supplying research labs and similar academic bodies so inflate the price according to what they can get away with, not what's 'reasonable'. That said, they are not generally cheap, I just go very lucky on fleaBay.

The height from the bottom of the quil to teh tip of the probe is a minimum of about 3", depending on whcih probe you have selected. The mechanism is very simple. There is a plate about 3" long and 1" wide which is pivoted at the mid point of each end. The probe causes it to rock one way or the other depending on whether it is inside a hole or outside a bar or on a not-normal swashplate. There is disc as I recall, a bit bigger in diameter than the width of the plate resting on the top of it, so that irrespective of which side of the plate rises or the orientation of the rocking plate as you rotate the spinde, the disc always rises. This presses the DTI probe which is mounted in the non-rotating body of the tool.

There are some additional details including a friction lock for gross adjustment so that it can cope with diameters from zero up to about 12" and some internal adjustments, but essentially that's it.

As others have commented, most of the time I just touch one side then the other with something, (often the cutter if I'm going to machine the outer surfaces later anyway) and split the difference. As long as the witness mark is the same width on both sides, it doesn't even matter how deep it is. I haven't got DRO's, but I don't find it a major issue - don't miss what you've never had. Though no doubt if I did get them I'd be a convert.

Richard

[Corvus corax]

BTW. There were a while ago pictures and videos about Joachim Steinke“s edge finders in HMEM, in here
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=10633.0
They are just small ball bearings mounted to a bit of round steel. I "built" one, their simplicity is almost ridiculous. But the accuracy and ease of use are wonderful.
  

These work well and are quite popular around these parts.
I was introduced to them by a Hungarian machinist I used to work with. Conversely, he laughed at my use of cigarette paper for finding edges and height on the mill.
Said he had only ever heard of the British doing that.
Oh well I did come from one of the old colonies. ;-)

[picclock]

That bearing idea is great. I just bought a Starrett 827MB tpye finder, but found that it made marks on aluminium.

Also, it would be very easy to make several of the 'normal' sizes just using silver steel bars. Could engrave or mark them with the bearing diameter.

Not sure how they would be affected by the play in the bearing though.

great idea

picclock

[Stilldrillin]

That pip on the left has been put on the shaft using gauges, DRO, Joderell Bank telescope and a Kray computer so it's spot on.

The pip on the right has been put on after the axis has been moved sideways by 0.001" and you can see it's off centre.

Sooo the MK1 eyeball CAN work to a thou.

John S.

John.
Mine still does. Can't be bothered with all the faffin' about with unnecessary technology...... 

David D

[bry1975]

At our old machine shop we use to use a rizzla smoke wrappers works everytime. 

[John Rudd]

At our old machine shop we use to use a rizzla smoke wrappers works everytime. 

Used to use them for setting ignition timing on two strokes...

[Corvus corax]

At our old machine shop we use to use a rizzla smoke wrappers works everytime. 

As I said that's how we always did it.
I always used Rizzla red papers. Lately, all I can get are the blue ones.