Author Topic: Stuart 10V Build Log  (Read 85511 times)

Offline raynerd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2893
  • Country: gb
    • Raynerds Projects - Raynerd.co.uk
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2010, 01:30:01 PM »
OK, well all your advice taken onboard and all sound ideas which make sense!

So here we go boring the standard with new clamps. DMIOM - didn`t get your message in time and they were not anchored in this setup so your advice is duly noted for next time! Still no camera, so just a couple taken on my phone.

boring the standard:


After testing the bore with my go/no-go gage the bore is an excellent fit for the guides. Considering this truthfully is my first time making an accurate bore so small - I`m pleased  :ddb:


Then as Kwackers suggested, turned up some silver steel that was already 16mm down to a very tight fit. Rubbed it down to a taper with some emory paper and pushed on the standard. I then skimmed up the feet which as it happened were almost true to the bore anyway,


...a pile of parts...again ....but now the standard should be correct!!


OK, now I would like to drill the feet of the standard and tap the holes to bolt it down to the soleplate; equally I`d like to drill the holes for the soleplate to the box base. I`ve got my BA tap set  :ddb: but I`m not sure the best way of getting these to match up. I`m thinking I could make a jig or just mark out and drill ? Any thoughts or suggestions...?

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2010, 01:36:47 PM »
I was going to say the straps looked alright but I think the advice from the others was correct when thought about more carefully!

Good work there, for drilling the holes, sure you could do it with careful marking but spot the holes properly - i did some the other day that weren't as critical and the drills wondered off a little even though I'd made deep centre pops! I little jig would probably be a better way ( a sort of template) then you'll get them all the same, just remember to use it the right way up each part.

What speed did you bore at? I thought cast iron should be pretty slow but whatever, it's worked well.  :thumbup:  :clap:

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline kwackers

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 356
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2010, 01:53:27 PM »
Don't know if it's the camera - but it does look mightily fast for cast iron!

Re the holes, milling machine. Use the dials (or DRO) to position them. All that matters here is that they're spaced out the same so they all match.

Offline raynerd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2893
  • Country: gb
    • Raynerds Projects - Raynerd.co.uk
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2010, 01:54:50 PM »
I don`t know what speed it was as I`ve currently no tacho (winter PIC project) and have converted the motor to 3 phase with inveter and vary control. I took the first passes very slow as suggested in both the ME article and the 10V book. However once I could "feel" the top layer had been cut, I jumped up the speed a bit.  

The photo is posed -  :) I`d already cut the bore!!  :lol:

I think I`ll go for a jig and then I know they are all the same, especially without my DRO on the mill at present.

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2010, 03:34:16 AM »
Ha,  :D I've done that myself a few times!

Yeah, I would say a couple of hundred RPM would be about right for boring that. Saying that, I do everything slower on my lathe as it's good at doing slow!

Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline madjackghengis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • big engine
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2010, 01:57:08 PM »
Hi Craynerd, having come to model building from building full sized engines, I find looking at the model as if it were full scale, and taking the forces I would expect in full scale as a standard, I end up with solid mountings and good repeatability.  Having rebuilt many engines and machine shop machines, I have developed standard procedures for differing levels of accuracy.  The issue with steam engines is they tend to have many parts which must be either parallel to each other, or perpendicular, or either of the two to a round bore, and generally machined each separately.  This means that more care must be taken, as error always creeps in, no matter how much care you take, and error usually "stacks", unless you take the opportunity to arrange it so such error as you know will arrive, can be put in the opposite direction as error expected in another part directly attached.  With modern engines, most of the machining is in one casting, and it is much easier to get the full accuracy of the machine tool, as the limit of accuracy of the finished work.  I learned about stacking error with the making of repair parts and having to match what I was making in replacement, to the accuracy already in place in what was being repaired.  The good news is that people have been doing this as we do, for almost a couple hundred years, and with micrometers coming about only about a hundred years ago, so accuracy can be made to come to fruition by careful work, and most of all, an active imagination, as that is where you will see the error first, before you even measure it, once you are accustomed to how your machines behave.
   I commonly use cigarette papers to check fit, or to move a cutter to a piece without actually touching off, and getting a true "zero", because the it touched off on the paper, which is reliably .001 thickness, and tears away, with the cutter, while not touching the work.  For making holes that must align, I always use a center drill in the center pop, always drill in steps, and use one piece to guide the final drill size in the other piece it fits to.  My milling machine is twenty years old Taiwanese and when I first got it, I tried to "coordinate drill" six holes using the dials of the machine, and found no two holes within five thousandths of where they should have been relative to each other.  A DRO is a tremendous boon, and improves accuracy enormously, don't know how I got along without it.  The biggest mistake beginning machinists tend to make is related to the idea that the machines are solid cast iron and steel, and thus can't flex or bend, while this is actually exactly opposite what they really do.  It was all brought home to me some twenty five years ago when I was in an old machine shop, having just moved to the area, and waiting my turn to speak to the owner.  A machinist had the large lathe going, with about a ten foot face plate, with a complex piece on it being turned, with interupted cuts all the way to the end of the machine work.  The tool was a piece of high speed steel a foot square, and four feet long, the tool post on this lathe was probably three feet square, and four feet tall, and the lathe was turning at about 2 rpm, for the proper cutting speed for cast iron.  Each time the cut came around, I watched the tool flex about four inches, the tool post flex enough to be plainly visible, and the blue half inch thick chip fly off and travel a good thirty feet, smoking in the oil where it lay.  Up to that day, I knew intellectually, that all things move and bend, flexing and such, but did not know in my "spirit", which required seeing it, absorbing it, and re-arranging my thought processes around to incorporate this old knowledge into the intuitive part of the brain.  Having seen it on a work piece well over a ton, I now can visualize the minute flex in small parts clearly, and make plans to accomodate the flex, and work around it.  I hope this is helpful and not just me running my mouth and flexing my "experience", but I am entirely self taught, and have only a year of "machine shop" in high school for formal school, started as a mechanic, and learning by watching, and even more, by reading how it was done in the very old books, those such as Lindsey Publications reprints, mostly from the turn of the last century and in the first few decades since.  I highly recommend this publishing house, it's easily found on the internet, and has great old books show how to do things with far simpler machinery, and far less tooling for measuring.  I also want to say I am as eager as any on this site, to see you successfully complete what will be a beautiful engine, and hopefully watch a video of it running, I'm a bit envious of your engine, to tell the truth, and wish it were my project.  It is looking great so far, and your careful work shows. :jaw: mad jack

Offline raynerd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2893
  • Country: gb
    • Raynerds Projects - Raynerd.co.uk
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2010, 03:18:28 PM »
I appreciate your reply MadJack. I`m only just really getting to grips with machining procedure. It has been a steep learning curve. I`ve been on here for just over a year now but there is just so much to understand it takes a long time to get to grips with everything. I know for a fact I went through months of just machining aimlessly to get to grips with my machines and understand how they worked...then months of trying to machine accurately...then months of realising I can`t be accurate unless my machines are so and so I spent months setting them all up properly....and now I`ve hit the stage where I want to machine an engine and so not only to parts have to be accurate but they have to be true to one another and I guess this is where procedure comes in. I do need to read more but as I explained before I think I use to skim read procedure to just read and get to grips with the simple machining process that was going on...not necessary read and understand the order.
Anyway...I`m getting there! 

I have to admit that I have always used the classic excuse of " a bad workman always blames his tools" and I did blame my tools or get stressed with them BUT since spending time and a little money on new tools and getting my machines sorted I feel so much more comfortable in my shop and getting on with things. I feel I don`t have to "make do" any more and normally have the tool to hand ready to use and it seems jobs are going more smoothly and better than then use to. Anyway...long may it continue!!

Thanks again Madjack. I`ll keep pressing on!
Chris

Offline Powder Keg

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 932
  • Country: us
  • Machinist Extraordinaire
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2010, 05:35:40 PM »
Your engine is coming along nice Chris! The months will turn into years. I've been paid to be a machinist for 15 years now. I'm Going to school to help figure things out. It will never end. Every job is different. Hang in there
Wesley P
A Gismo ??? If it has a flywheel or spins and is made with small parts. I'll take one! If it makes noise, moves, or requires frequent oiling and dusting it's a better deal yet. It's especially right if its shiny and bright; but if it's dirty and dull it wont mater at all...

Offline raynerd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2893
  • Country: gb
    • Raynerds Projects - Raynerd.co.uk
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2010, 10:29:21 AM »
Hello all, after drilling for the mounting bolts this eveing, I`m planning on moving onto the cylinder next. I have done a search "boring stuart cylinder" have have hit quite a few results but as with anything on the net, your never sure if it is done correctly (or like me, post for advice!!)

I know I`m taking your time but would anyone care to outline the major things I need to consider and perhaps does anyone have any links to a method that seems accurate that I should follow? I have obviously identified that the bore must be at 90 deg to the cylinder bottom (and I am under impression that the top face is not essential). I also believe that the cylinder mount where the steam chest will fit needs to be parallel to the main bore. I`m clear that by boring and then facing one end I`ll have the bore at 90deg to the cylinder face but I`m not clear how to ensure or even machine the steam face parallel to the bore with both the lathe and mill at my use.

Any help appreciated.

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2010, 11:07:00 AM »
Some great points there Jack. I found out that with my brand new chinese machine, the dials were accurate over short distances of travel, however, if I wound it more than a couple of inches there was quite some error, which obviously got worse the further you went. Must be pitch error in the screws. I think a DRO would transform my machine, I used them at university and it made things so much better. Since I got my 2nd hand Harrison lathe and this mill, my work has drastically improved, so I think it's sometimes right to blame your tools Chris, I was struggling on with the machines I had and it was those all along. Technique is obviously a bit part of it though.

I also think that steam models generally are quite forgiving on tolerances though, it's better to have things with plenty of clearance rather than something with close tolerances and a boat load of friction. Limits and fits in model engineering are something, unfortunately, that you just have to get a feel for through experience, whereas if drawings were fully toleranced the builder would get results if he stuck to the tolerances.

Even on my hot air engines and flame gulpers which are notoriously difficult to get working, I've probably given more clearance in working parts than most people would, with good effect. Friction is the enemy but clearance (in moderation) can be your friend!

Chris,

you could clamp the square end of the cylinder up against and angle plate and mill it that way (see attached diagram) or I guess if you can get a good grip on it, clamp it in the vice with that face vertical.

Sure people will have better ideas though!

Nick





Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline kwackers

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 356
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2010, 12:07:40 PM »
The way Nicks diagram above shows the facing of the steam chest face is fine.

What you're aiming for with the cylinder is the bottom to be faced at right angles to the cylinder, the cylinder bore to be parallel and the steam chest face to be parallel to the bore.

Obviously boring and facing the cylinder in one go will ensure the first. The second - just make sure your lathe isn't turning taper (some people use a boring bar between centres to ensure a parallel bore). For the steam chest the accuracy you'll get from bolting it to a face plate is more than enough (obviously check your face plate is at right angles to the bed and shim it to be so if it isn't).

As you surmise the top cap of the cylinder isn't important - although if it looks crooked you should sell your lathe - and mill - and any tools you may have. (You may keep one hammer though).

Offline madjackghengis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • big engine
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #36 on: October 04, 2010, 12:26:51 PM »
Hello Chris,  Nick has made some very good points, as he says, steam engines are the most forgiving of model engines as they actually work above atmosperic pressure, and the first ones often had half an inch of clearance in the bore, and perhaps that much eccentricity and taper at times.  I have recently just bored a cylinder for a tiny power steam engine, I used a four jaw chuck to get the bore as closely centered to the casting as possible, facing the end at the same time and then flipping it by loosening the jaw against the valve flat, and one other, putting the faced end flat against the chuck, which I know is accurate, but as you say, the second end needs to seal more than be perfectly square, so I concentrated on proper length and got that right, and it is in fact square with the bore.
   I then took the cylinder and clamped a through bolt through an angle plate, the cylinder, and another angle plate, and bolted the angle plates to the table of my mill, then used a fairly accurate level to get the cast surface close to parallel to the table, and used a flycutter to face off the valve face.  I used two angle plates because they were handy, and two offers much stronger support, far more against chatter than for any other purpose, not wanting the cylinder hanging out, however lacking a second angle plate, I would use an adjustable parallel, or carefully wedge the loose end of the cylinder with hardwood wedges, just enough pressure to ensure they stay in place, and not enough to tilt the cylinder up.  I have used a file and dial calipers to measure the thickness of the cylinder wall to the face of the valve face on each end, and corrected a few thousandths difference with the file and finished the face with wet or dry sand paper laying on a surface plate, but the plate is not an absolute necessity, one can easily use something like an accurate angle plate as a standard to finishing, and for checking, or just a plain straight edge if you have one that is truly straight.  The valve face must be pretty closely parallel to the cylinder bore, or the valve gear will tend to bind up, however a couple thousandths one way or the other can be compensated for, as long as it is flat, to ensure the valve seals well.
   I use a set of magnifying lenses often a brand called "Optivisors", both for accuracy, and because my vision is not what it used to be, but they are useful for anyone doing accurate work, and I highly recomend them.  Model engine builders fifty years ago, commonly finished the valve face with nothing but a file, and often took the cylinder to get it bored, lacking a lathe of their own, so it can be done quite well even with minimal tooling.  For setting up your bolt circle to bolt the cylinder to the stanchion, you can plug the stanchion's bored hole with a plug machined for a tight fit, and with a "center pop" you can put a leg of dividers in, and scribe a hole circle on the top flange of the stanchion, if it takes six bolts to attach the cylinder, you can walk the dividers around, at the radius established for the circle, and careful stepping will give you an exact dividing into six, by the nature of Pi.  If it calls for more, such as eight, one can walk the dividers around several times, incrementally adjusting smaller, until stepping all around puts the last leg back on the first mark.  That flange can then be used to transfer the hole locations to the cylinder and also to the cylinder head, when it is machined.  I think that should get you started on the cylinder, I am happy to be of assistance, I am not working on mine right now, because we are recovering from a flood over the past week, and my shop was running a foot deep, so it will be some time before I've got it cleaned up and working again, but I can sort of work by giving advise, and enjoying the work vicariously, if you find it helpful.  I have a full and fairly complete machine shop, having retired from the business due to my health, but I started with a home made lathe, and hand tools, so I can adapt methods to what you have available to you, and if you do good work, carefully, you will have a very nice engine you will be quite happy to have built.  I have Multiple Sclerosis, which limits my work to a couple hours a day, but does not interfere with my mind, and I am retired due to it, so what time I have, is mine and there is little effort in writing, so if I can assist, just ask, I enjoy seeing other's engines almost as much as seeing my own.  Even the worst Chinese machine you can buy today is more accurate as a baseline, than the best of small lathes available for the hobbyist fifty years ago, so get well aquainted with all its warts and callouses, learn how they affect things, you will find ways around them, and eventually, an idea will pop into your head and you will remove a wart or two, and see a distinct improvement, leading to the next.  I work on a 1948 Logan ten inch lathe mostly yet I have never stopped changing it, and improving it, even though it was a fine lathe when I bought it from e-bay close to twenty years ago, and rebuilt it fully.  The main thing is getting to know your own equipment so you can immediately identify any issues that arise, and you will find it is absolutely true that the lathe can build its self, and is the only machine tool which can, and is necessary for the building of all others.  I hope this is of some use to you, keep at it until you have all the parts of an engine laying around, and then you just put the parts together, simple, heh?  :poke: mad jack

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2010, 08:23:12 AM »
Jack,

thanks for sharing those techniques there, I am sure myself and many others will find them useful. I have done the divider thing before as a kid creating pretty patterns with a pair of compasses but never thought to apply it to bolted flanges, that is brilliant for me as I don't have a rotary table or any method of indexing - I used to try to use the 3 jaws of the chuck to do it, I guess with some piece of metal that caused the chuck to stop in the same place on each jaw it would have worked but it never seemed to give me perfect results, I wouldn't be able to bolt it on in any position.

Sorry to hear about your flood and your condition, you do amazingly well. :thumbup:

Good point about the machinery of old and the fact that people did so much with just hand tools, I don't know how they did it, they were truely skilled men!



Nick
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline madjackghengis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • big engine
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2010, 11:30:32 AM »
Hi Nick, thanks for the kind words, I appreciate them.  We were not the worst hit with the flood, and I am truly grateful for that, my shop is not under water since yesterday, and doors are open with a wind blowing through, most of what I lost is the kind of scavenged equipment motors and the like one collects for future projects.
   I learned the trade from reading, a year in high school, and from working by hand, gradually accumulating tools.  For all who do this sort of work, "Lindsey Books" reprints the text books and the general books written as the ideas were conceived, by the great men of machines, precisely for the working machinist at the time when the trade was going from measuring in fractions of an inch, to measuring in thousandths, because steam engines need much less precision than do gas engines, so the books tend to give far more than any modern text book can for those who work with budgets and minimal equipment.  I have six or seven feet of shelf of books just from Lindsey's, an they include books like "South Bend Lathes:  How to run a lathe", and books by other lathe and tool manufacturers explaining in detail, all the many uses their equipment can be in an automotive shop, for instance, so I can't recomend the books highly enough.  For those of you in England, all the books by Edgar T. Westbury, are top notch couldn't be better, and are more easily found there than here in the colonies.  Knowing that "good mechanics" built model engines at home, in their spare time, without a lathe, and perhaps a drill press as their only power tool commonly, fifty years and more ago, has kept me from giving up on any difficulty, I have scrapped a lot of pieces in my learning curve.
   Lots of machine shops did not have rotary tables until the second world war so the techniques they developed for accurate and repeatable work and recorded are exactly the things we need in our small shops, so any pre-war books will help a lot.  The real test will be when Chris gets to the part of drilling the ports for the cylinder, and setting up the valve face of the cylinder.  It's not hard, just requiring very careful layout and workmanship.  I'm thinking I should perhaps do those things to my cylinder when he gets there, just to have pictures to show.
   Sorry, Chris, don't mean to take over your thread.  I hope you don't mind, and get your cylinder straight, true, and square, so we can get on with the rest, it really does feel good to "almost have a hand in it", and I might finish my steam engine before I finish my radial engine, which is in dire need of attention and has developed a bad attitude toward me.  ttfn  :poke: mad jack

Offline raynerd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2893
  • Country: gb
    • Raynerds Projects - Raynerd.co.uk
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2010, 07:49:28 PM »
MadJack - sad to hear about your equipment ruined by floods. We have had rain here, flooded areas but thankfully it has not come near the house. Your advice and comments are really useful and I do read all your replies!

I`ve spent two nights on this now - and things are going slow...but what is the rush I guess!! I was hoping to bolt everything down (drill and tap) and then get the cylinder machined. It has taken me 2 nights to make the jigs, drill and tap and also just face up the cylinder to tidy it up.

I hope I did this all OK but it has seemed to have worked! It is getting late so here are some pics for you but more questions tomorrow!

Jig bolted to the bottom of the standard for drilling the feet


Now on sole plate


...and on the boxbed




Holes drilled and tapped - here it all is assembled! Well the holes align at least :D Looks good imo!


Cylinder Casting before




I then measured the cylinder and found I have plenty of meat on it so took it to the mill to tidy the two faces up a bit. Then I read the 10V book and he suggests plugging the bore and marking out from the curved half of the cylinder outside to find the centre of the cylinder bore section. It does say in the book that you need to find the centre based on the outside as the datum, not finding the centre of the current hole in the casting.




Now my first question - I didn`t go any further than this but am I right in thinking I only need it roughly centred. So I`ve used a centre to align with my mark on the plug - is this good enough?



Well it is late...off to bed!!

Chris
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 07:59:19 PM by craynerd »

Offline Brass_Machine

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5504
  • Country: us
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #40 on: October 05, 2010, 07:57:31 PM »
Chris

Fixed your image tags

Eric
Science is fun.

We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #41 on: October 06, 2010, 05:10:08 AM »
Chris,

Nice work with the drilling jig, I never use them because I'm impatient but seeing that it has come out really well and i will probably try that next time. It's the attention to detail like that which will make it stand out from the rest and give you the satisfaction that you've done a really good job on it.

In my opinion the way you've lined the centre up looks alright to me.

Just out of interest, have you measured the position of the ports? Are they in the correct place etc, are you just supposed to clean those up with a file? They seem pretty deep so it doesn't look like you can change the position, this means that the amount you skim off each end is critical. Simply getting the correct cylinder length isn't good enough, you need to take the right amount off each end such that the ports lie in the right position - probably obvious but thought I'd mention it!

Nick

Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline John Rudd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2525
  • Country: gb
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #42 on: October 06, 2010, 07:19:54 AM »

It has taken me 2 nights to make the jigs,



Holes drilled and tapped - here it all is assembled! Well the holes align at least :D Looks good imo!



Chris

So, 2 nights work to make a jig and drill a small number of holes and it fits right first time! Nice work Chris.. :clap:

How long would it have taken if it had gone horribly wrong without the use of the jig?  :dremel:

Time well invested methinks.. :thumbup:

Well done, looking good so far..



eccentric millionaire financed by 'er indoors
Location:  Backworth Newcastle

Skype: chippiejnr

Offline raynerd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2893
  • Country: gb
    • Raynerds Projects - Raynerd.co.uk
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #43 on: October 06, 2010, 07:41:50 AM »
Eric, thanks for sorting out my links. It was late when I finished!

John, yes a good point! If I hadn`t have used the jigs I could very well be ordering new castings so I guess it worked out well and was worth the time.

Looking at the plans, I think the central port is central to the cylinder length. I`ve got plenty on the cylinder so I`ve just taken the flashing off and tidied the surface up. I`ve still actually got a bit to take off both side! Is that what you mean?



Anyone any thoughts about the method of centralising the cylinder using this bung as shown. Does it need to be spot on, or will this method be accurate enough. I mean this is centred but is it accurate enough?

Offline kwackers

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 356
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #44 on: October 06, 2010, 07:45:04 AM »
I think you can get away with a movement of a few thou so I wouldn't worry about the hole being absolutely centre in the casting.

What I would make sure though is the ring of holes are concentric with the bore (save drilling them oversize a bit later when you find they're offset!)

Offline raynerd

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2893
  • Country: gb
    • Raynerds Projects - Raynerd.co.uk
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2010, 08:05:15 AM »
Do you mean the ring of holes for the cylinder covers?

How about turning down another tight fitting bar to insert in the bore (once the cylinder has been bored and faced) and then holding the bar in the chuck on the rotab and drilling the holes. Because it will be turning based on the bore they will then be concentric right? 

Offline DMIOM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
  • Country: gb
  • Isle of Man
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2010, 08:14:38 AM »
Chris - if your mill's DRO has a PCD function then just use that - no need for the rotab; otherwise the rotab idea should be OK.

Offline NickG

  • Madmodder Committee
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1890
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2010, 08:41:53 AM »
The rotary table idea sounds fine to me. It's not critical that you get the bore in the centre of the casting, what is critical is that when you bolt it to the standard, the bore is concentric with the bore for the crosshead on the standard. Also, the distance from the centre of bore on the cylinder to centre of valve guide might be, depending on how much you can move the eccentric on the crankshaft. Looking at the picture on Stuart website you can move the eccentric sheave either way on the crankshaft so that's not critical either.

incidentally - £502 + VAT so £590 for the finished 10V from Stuart!!!!!

Nick

Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline madjackghengis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 717
  • big engine
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2010, 11:27:19 AM »
Hi Chris, you are getting good advise from all corners it seems, the issue with the bore, the ports, and the cover holes all center around the fact the outside of the casting will remain as cast, other than the machined faces.  If you center the rough cylinder in a four jaw, and use an indicator to get the two sides which are the same, equal, and then get the third round side within a few thousandths of the two, you will have centered the main part of the cylinder, and it will be fine.  The center line of the center port, must be at the center of the cylinder, and in my experience, you will probably clean it and the other two ports a little bit with a slot cutter, but it is important for valve timing, that you get that port pretty well centered, within a few thousandths is easily close enough.  As Nick said, once the boring is done, and the facing off of the ends, if you have a DRO, and it has the bolt circle function, that is the easiest way to get the hole in proper position, just remember the radius you use in that function and you can use it for the holes in the standard, and for both heads as well, and get pretty much dead on.  You certainly did a fine job getting all your mounting holes drilled in proper and it is starting to look like an engine.  The reason for starting the boring from centering on the outside of the casting is to ensure you make up for any shifting of the bore core in the pouring of the casting.  Thirty years ago, no one expected the cast bore to be centered, but casting techniques have improved a lot, and people expect bores as cast to be central, and such.  Off subject a bit, I lost very little, just some of the collection of junk that could someday be something else, mostly.  All the important things are fine.
   I appreciate you posting of the drawings, they help with perspective a lot.  I think you're going to get through this rather quickly at the pace you've set, and will be steaming an engine in a few weeks or less.  Getting the ports central, end to end, is critical because it will provide equal lengths for timing the valve, and minimize compromise, which is always a factor in steam timing.  The casting is quite long to ensure you have plenty to get it centered.  You're making wish I could close up my shop doors and pull my kit out, and get back to work on it, rather than the next week cleaning out all the trash and setting up shop again.  I'm really looking forward to the video you're going to post when this engine is steaming and the grin goes from ear to ear.  By the way, can you tell me what "PCD" stands for?  We call it hole circle function, here in the colonies, and I can't guess what the PCD stands for. :beer: :jaw: :nrocks: jack

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Stuart 10V Build Log
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2010, 12:22:44 PM »
Jack,
Pitch Circle Diameter.......  :thumbup:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!