Mini-Mill/Drill: Tooling, Vise and Rotary Table

[D_Harris]

I have a Central Machinery Mill/Drill(#44991) from Harbor Freight that needs tooling and accessories.(Once I get it fixed).

I put the Mill/Drill's model number in the site search and came up with this:
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_model.php

Knowing little about these machines I'd appreciate opinions on the items in that
list.

As well as what kind of rotary table and vise should I should keep my eyes open
for.

This is not for specific projects but I'm just looking for general recommendations because I'd hate to get the wrong item and then decide I need something bigger or slightly different.

Here are the rotary tables and specifically the vise I'm considering:
http://littlemachineshop.com/Products/product_value.php
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3487&category=

I do have a load of 5C stuff(collets, collet chuck, and even a rotary index fixture that I'll probably never use for anything because of it's size). But I'd need special adapters/accessories to use them.

I also have a lot of end mills and holders that are MT3 for when I was thinking of using my 7" x 14"  mini-lathe for milling purposes, but I should probably ditch those and concentrate on getting R8 items for the future.

Thanks a lot.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[75Plus]

One of the other members recently posted a thread about the LMS 3" vise. You may find it of interest if you haven't already read it.

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=2741.0

Joe

[Bernd]

I think what your looking at is just fine for the size of machine you have.

Remember if the tool is to big for your machine, lets say a 6" rotary table, you may not be able to get out to the limits of the table to do the work on the piece of metal your working on.

Bernd

[D_Harris]

Ok, I've established that I need a 4" rotary table, tail stock and dividing plates.

With that I was considering a tooling package: http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3489&category=

But I'd have to forget that if there is anything there that I can upgrade. In particular, the vise.

Is a 4" vise too large? I was about to get that 3" LMS vise mentioned when it was discontinued, so now I'm looking at other options.

How about the plausibility of attaching a vise to the rotary table I get? Are tilt and swivel vises plausible with a mini mill/drill?

I have a couple of projects where 360 degrees(divisions) will be necessary.(90 degrees vertical).

A)  http://www.shars.com/products/view/7465/3_x_3200quot_Lock_Down_Precision_Milling_Machine_Vise_with_Swivel_Base

B)  http://www.shars.com/products/view/56/4x418x114quot_Lock_Down_Precision_Milling_Machine_Vise_with_Swivel_Base

C)  http://www.shars.com/products/view/53/4quot_Heavy_Duty_Swivel_Base_Milling_Machine_Vise

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[ksouers]

Darren,
I have the same mill. I use the 2 inch screw-less vise from LMS with good success. A 3 inch would be about the limit.

As for putting I vise on top of a RT, that's iffy at best though it has been done. There really is very little room under the head of the X2 when you start stacking up tooling.

[D_Harris]

I just found out that once I add an air spring kit to the mill/drill I can reasonably use a 6" rotary table. So that is now at the top of the list.

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2329&category=

BTW. Are the precision "tool makers" vises better than the Kurt-style, assuming the same sizes? I'm wondering what the drawbacks are. (I've concluded that the tilting vises are generally too big).

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[ksouers]

Darren,
If you are talking about "Kurt-style" vises from LMS, Shars, CDCO et al. Then definitely yes, the tool maker vises are much better. However there are Kurt-type vises available that are of very good quality with prices to match but still cheaper than a true Kurt brand.

I like the little 2 inch screwless on the X2, but I also have a larger knee mill with a large Bridgeport brand vise. If I do small work on the knee mill I can just drop the screwless in the Bridgeport vise and it's already squared up.

There are numerous threads floating around lamenting the lack of quality of the cheap clone vises.

[D_Harris]

Darren,
If you are talking about "Kurt-style" vises from LMS, Shars, CDCO et al. Then definitely yes, the tool maker vises are much better. However there are Kurt-type vises available that are of very good quality with prices to match but still cheaper than a true Kurt brand.

I like the little 2 inch screwless on the X2, but I also have a larger knee mill with a large Bridgeport brand vise. If I do small work on the knee mill I can just drop the screwless in the Bridgeport vise and it's already squared up.

There are numerous threads floating around lamenting the lack of quality of the cheap clone vises.

Ok. The Kurt-style cost more than the screwless. Am I correct in assuming that it is because you can swivel the Kurt-Style? (I assume the screwless are more precise).

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1590
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1699

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[ksouers]

Sorry Darren. I can't tell you why the Kurt-style costs more, perhaps it is the swivel. But I can definitely say the quality is far lower.
What I have seen of the Kurt-style looks like they were marked out with chalk and hacked it out with an axe.

Where as the 2 inch screwless I have is finely ground on all surfaces and everything is perfectly square. The only rough part is internal where the catch pin is, and it's not bad, just not ground. There is not a burr in sight. The material is hardened tool steel, and it is hardened. Excellent quality, even if it is an import.

I'm considering adding another vise, sometimes the Bridgeport is too big and the screwless is too small. Something in between would be nice.
This is what I'm considering: http://www.glacern.com/gsv_440

[D_Harris]

Sorry Darren. I can't tell you why the Kurt-style costs more, perhaps it is the swivel. But I can definitely say the quality is far lower.
What I have seen of the Kurt-style looks like they were marked out with chalk and hacked it out with an axe.

Where as the 2 inch screwless I have is finely ground on all surfaces and everything is perfectly square. The only rough part is internal where the catch pin is, and it's not bad, just not ground. There is not a burr in sight. The material is hardened tool steel, and it is hardened. Excellent quality, even if it is an import.

I'm considering adding another vise, sometimes the Bridgeport is too big and the screwless is too small. Something in between would be nice.
This is what I'm considering: http://www.glacern.com/gsv_440

Would you have a recommendation between the 3" vise here?
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_search.php?critFast=screwless&B1=Product+Search

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[ksouers]

I think either one would be fine. The one with slots down the side, the more expensive one, would be easier to set up on an angle. But that's the only advantage I see.

In the 5 years I've had my screwless (with peg holes, not slots) I've had to set up on an angle exactly once. I could have done it differently and kept the vise squared up but didn't have the experience at the time to see a different way.

You can make your own parallels and clamps and they are a good exercise.

I see the cheaper one as being a better value.

[cedge]

Kevin
I own one of the 4 inch Phase II Kurt style vises and it's of good quality. I used the 3 toolmakers vise on the X2 and it is quite usable but a bit more of an aggravation to use than the Kurt style. I was always having to space things with parallels to hit a locking point. That problem dosen't occur with the Kurt style  design.

Darren
Another source of small machine accessories, many MT3 is at www.micromark.com. Often a wee bit more expensive for some things, but they have a selection that fills in a few of gaps.  I'm not too sure you'll manage a 6 inch rotary table under the head of the X2.  Even with the longer rack, The 4 inch was often pressed for space.

Steve

[ksouers]

Steve,
I've never had a problem with stuff with the Phase II name on it. Their stuff seems to be a bit better than the generic no-name Chinese knock-offs. I guess they are a bit more selective about what they send out.

As for getting the screwless to lock, I agree, they are a bit fiddly. But I've always managed to lock it in without using spacers. Though more than I few times I've managed to drop the bottom off the lock and had to remove the vise and re-square it.

[D_Harris]

There are actually only two 3" vise LMS sells that I can use with my Mill/Drill:
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1590
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2356

The problem is I need to be able to grip 4" square plates and the larger one is just short at 3.94". :-(

So I am looking at this at MSC:
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=1656337&PMT4NO=85424675

The question is if there will be a problem using it with my mill/drill:
http://www.harborfreight.com/two-speed-variable-bench-mill-drill-machine-44991.html

Here are two outside possibilities at ENCO, but I'm sure they are too big:
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=950158&PMAKA=428-9020
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=951675&PMAKA=428-9126

Thanks a lot.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[techonehundred]

I have two different machinist vises that I use on an x2 so here is the way I see it.  I have a small two inch one from www.shars.com and a 3 inch wide one from Enco that was gifted to me.  Both are very different(even more than size).  The three inch wide one from enco works fine on the x2 as far as size wise.  The main thing I do not like about it is the fact that you cannot ratchet it.  to move the jaws a notch, you have to take out the pin and then move the jaw and hit the hole blind. This can be frustrating because you use the same holes to hold down the vise and invariably the hole you want is where the hold-down is.  Other than that I like the vise fine. 
The vise that I have from Shars is different in that it uses the a ratchet underneath and you can loosen the bolt and change the positioning fairly simply.  Also, the hold downs do not get in the way.  The only problem with this vise is the nut that holds the ratchet underneath.  The nut was made a little too small and when tightening the vise, the dowel can twist and slip.  This can be fixed by machining a larger nut, but I have been too lazy to do that. 
Both vises are accurate enough and I have no trouble mounting them on the x2.  One thing that I would note is that if you buy a 3" or 3.5" vise, make sure you get the 3" parallels from LMS.  The 6" parallels will forever fight you with the hangover they have trying to put your part in the vise.  They seem to always be trying to flip my part out of the vise.

Just my $.02

Anthony

[D_Harris]

Thanks everyone.

Since I'll need to be able to grip a 4" square plate, I'll probably get this:
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=1656337&PMT4NO=85424675

Though I haven't given up on the other two:
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=950158&PMAKA=428-9020
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=951675&PMAKA=428-9126

Thanks again.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[cedge]

These are relatively low profile vises, so you might get away with the larger size. My 4 inch Kurt style would have been a handicap due to it being a bit taller.

Steve

[D_Harris]

Actually, trying to compare the height of the various vises is difficult, because a vise at LMS just says 2.76" tall. But MSC and Enco specifically reference "Jaw height" at 1-3/8", 1", and 1-1/2" respectively. (I assume that overall length and Jaw Width are not a big deal).

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.