Buying TOS mill? - Think I'm going to buy it!

[Trion]

A mill has just come up for sale, only a couple of miles from me. It is a TOS, and from what i have found by googling images, it looks like a FA 3 AU. By the picture it looks to be in good condition, but the feed on the y axis is not working, and one handwheel is broken. The asking price is about 1200£, including the massive vice, but no tooling.

Does anyone have experience with TOS mills?
If say the feed was running while a handwheel was connected and that got jammed against something, so that both broke, could more stuff be damaged?
The spindle is an ISO 40, would i be in trouble finding tools for this?
Price OK?

[Bernd]

Does anyone have experience with TOS mills?
If say the feed was running while a handwheel was connected and that got jammed against something, so that both broke, could more stuff be damaged?
The spindle is an ISO 40, would i be in trouble finding tools for this?
Price OK?

Never even heard of them, but then it's just a name.

If anything is broke it would be a key sheared off or something like that. Could also have a bent a shaft if they are of thin cross section. Handwheel could also have been broken by somebody hitting it with something. Without looking at it these are my best guess.

ISO 40, which I believe is a CAT 40 in US terms. Industrial type tool holders. I'm sure E-bay would be a place to look and see if there are any and at what price.

As far as price, looks to be around $1,000 US dollars, I would say it's not that bad of a price for the size of the machine.

Regards,
Bernd

[Andy]

Czech machine tool company. Has dealers in most of Europe. http://www.findamachine.com/machine_tool_manufacturer/TOS#machSol

[Darren]

Tooling in ISO 40 is plentiful second hand on Ebay and dealers, it seems to be the most common of the larger tapers of this type (30/40/50)

It's a nice taper to use as it doesn't seem to get stuck in the spindle like some others can at times.

Both handwheels on my lathe were smashed to bits at some time, but nothing seems to be bent so you never know. You will need to check for further damage though just incase.

Looks a very sturdy mill, definitely a quality machine.

You do realise how big it is don't you?

[CrewCab]

That's an enormous mill 

Trion, as far as I know one of our members on here, John Stevenson has a TOS Lathe and I'm pretty sure it gets a lot of use, he should be able to tell you about their quality if you drop him a pm.

CC

[John Stevenson]

They are built like brick $hithouses, good quality machines.

Only problem I can see with this machine from the photo is it looks like a universal horizontal with a vertical head as an attachment fitted.
The vertical head has no quill and I'm guessing it will be limited on the top speeds because it uses the horizontal spindle to drive it.

Unless you are into hogging serious lumps of metal I'd be inclined to give this a miss and look for a turret milling machine, TOS also do these, usually called FN 25's and FN30's.

John S.

[Trion]

Thanks for the reply guys!

I did a bit of searching of my own, and TOS seems to be a quite good brand as you all say

Pricewise, it's about 2100$ at the days currency, but you have to consider a normal 5 series bmw costs 100 000$ around here

Yes, the machine is humongous, but it should therefore make surfacing heads and small engine blocks pretty easy.
Will look into the speed limitations of the spindle, and give it a pass if that's true.
I'm not to certain about the english terminology of parts of the mill, what do you mean by quill? The ability to tilt the milling head?
-I think I got it, the ability to move the spindle downwards, while everything else is not moving!? I can see that coming up on the wishlist pretty soon..

[NickG]

I think they are very good quality. I've heard of the name before as they sell expensive lathe chucks! That looks bloody heavy which is a good thing but as John said, it's a shame the vertical head doesn't have a quill feed.

Nick

[Trion]

Yeah, if it's the FA 3 AU it should weigh in at about 1600kg (3527lbs)

By the way, when I go looking at it, what kind of maximum and minimum spindle speeds would I want it to have?
I would like to buy a machine capable of running everything from the smallest endmills to 10" fly cutters.

Thanks!
Jon

[Trion]

I was just out having a look at the machine
It is definetely a FA 3 AU machine, but other than that, there is very little information written on it.
It was previously owned by a machining company which mainly has CNC machines, and has terefore been used little, but I guess also not been looked after that much. The present owner has also only used it occasionally to hog some metal, and has now bought a tiny CNC mill instead.

The good:
- It's not that big "in person"
- Spindle speeds range from 100 to 2000 according to the gearing chart (I'm really hoping that these speeds also apply when using the vertical milling head)
- The vise is good and has a rotatable base with degree markings on it
- It comes with a indexable SECO 2" surfacing tool (seen on the picture)
- I also has a ISO 40 - MK 2 adaptor
- And a ISO 40 - ER 16 collet holder
- Equipment for horizontal milling is also provided (two bearing blocks and a shaft)
- The machine has feed and fast feed on all axes, but fast feed only works occasionally on the z-axis

The bad:
- The ways and the table has some rust on them
- 3 of 5 "oil-level look glasses" were empty
- Fast feed on Z axis doesn't allways work, but you can use regular feed and just put it in a high gear
- Moving the axes manually was quite hard work, but i hope this would improve as the machine gets cleaned and lubed properly
- Handle for one axis has broken off, needs welding (i have a welder)

Opinions on the new discoveries are well apreciated!

I have spoken to a few people around here who have some experience with these machines, and all seem to say that they are proper machines that should outlast me, even with bad maintainance. -Not that I plan to do that, I'm 22 btw.

Some of you may notice that I have only had my lathe for a couple of months, and that I should focus on buying proper tooling and tuning that up first. A part of me really agrees with you, but having done some research, this machine seems to be quite good and considering the tools, it's really cheap aswell. And, since it's so close I don't have to pay for transportation. I could always spend time on learning the lathe, even though the mill is standing next to it.
Who am I trying to convince anyways?

[Bernd]

I'd say go for it. The "bad" can always be fixed. If you find that it's not what you want down the road and may want a smaller or better mill you can always sell this one. Probably get a bit of a higher price with the bad fixed.

Bernd

[Darren]

Did someone mention 40 tapers .... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BT40-ER32-COLLET-CHUCKS-QTY-20_W0QQitemZ220527521555QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Metalworking_Milling_Welding_Metalworking_Supplies_ET?hash=item335876ef13

[AdeV]

I agree with bernd - just go for it! If you've got the room & the power for it, that is...

If you don't, you'll forever kick yourself for letting it pass. At least, until a cheaper one appears on eBay that is! Any rust is likely only surface rust (unless it was clearly scabbing off when you looked at it) and therefore easily rectified with a bit of WD40, some wet & dry & a bit of (gentle!) elbow grease.

I wish I had a Z-axis feed. Although cranking the knee up & down does at least keep me warm when the shop is cold...

PS: I'm at least as new to machining as you, and I've not fully tuned my Bridgeport yet. Didn't stop me buying the lathe  Ultimately, you'll want both; so you may as well buy while the right one is available.

[Trion]

Did someone mention 40 tapers .... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BT40-ER32-COLLET-CHUCKS-QTY-20_W0QQitemZ220527521555QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Metalworking_Milling_Welding_Metalworking_Supplies_ET?hash=item335876ef13

Nice find!
But unfortunately they won't fit a ISO 40 taper without work. The ISO taper has a cylindrical section on top, with internal M16(?) threads.

Bernd: That's true! Hmm..

Adev: Good point, I would probably be very satisfied with it. But things allways get more complicated than planned. Now the bid is up to 1400£, and the machine could still be in bad nick regarding the gearbox oil etc.. To make things worse, there is a newer smaller TOS mill, with DRO, for sale some 500km away for only 1000£ but the owner says the ways are worn..

[Darren]

They will fit 

I use BT30 with my ISO30 spindle, you just need a longer drawbar, maybe.... depends how long the original is. You could always extend it.

As advised to me by John S  some time ago