Tailstock Die guide

[Russel]

This die guide design has been inspired by Gerhard. Thank you Gerhard!

A while back I was enlightened (by Bogs) as to the difference between a carbon steel dienut and a high speed steel die. As a result of that I have obtained some smaller inexpensive dies for some of the projects brewing in my head. Now it is time to get to work and make a die guide for my little lathe.



So, first I chuck some 1.25" aluminum stock in the 3 jaw (I faced the end the last time I cut some stock off) and center drilled the end with the help of a steady rest. Once that was done, I set up the tail stock with a live center and took a few thousandths off the surface to clean it up.



Then, again with the help of the steady rest and a carefully aligned cut off tool, I parted off 2" of stock. I'm not sure if I want to make the guide that long, but I figure that I can always part more off later if I want it shorter. As for the 2 inch length, I figure that is about 3 fingers on one side and a thumb on the other side.



Next, I switch to one of my favorite chucks - the four independent jaw. This will allow me to center it with more precision that the self centering three jaw. What I like to do to get the part centered quickly is to use two socket head wrenches on the chuck. First I center it by eye, then I use my $10 DI with a little indicator holder I made and finish centering it, still using two allen wrenches. Once you get the hang of this it goes really quick. (I still remember the first time I did this with one allen wrench and not being sure of which direction to go to reduce the runout. One of the nice things about using two wrenches is that you can watch the DI needle move as you make the adjustment.)



Once I had the part centered, I center drilled it and then drilled to 5/16”.  (Sorry, didn't get any photos of that.) Time to bore for the Die. According to the directions that came with the boring tool, I need a 1/2" hole to use it. I carefully zero the DRO Z- axis to the end of the part and  zero the X- axis to the far side of the part. Then I divide the diameter of the part by 2 and advance the cross slide (X axis) to that number and zero the X axis again. I should have the bit zeroed on the center of the part, so to check this I advance the boring tool about .020” (the cutting tip has a .015” radius) into the 5/16 hole I drilled in the center and bring the cutting bit to just touch the edge of the hole. I read .1565 on the DRO X axis. About right, the radius of 5/16 is .15625 and the drill may have oversized it a bit so I should be close enough to bore with the DRO setting. So that I can remove the bulk of the bore material with out going over I like to mark the end of the part with the cutting bit a little shy of the final dimension so that I can work away without having to worry about boring over sized by mistake. I plan the bore diameter to .814” as the dies measure .810”. So I back the cutting bit out of the part, advance the cross slide so that I read .400 (less than half the final dimension) and make a .003” cut in the end of the part. Then, cutting bit back to the center of the part, adjust the Z axis for a .010 cut and cut till I reach the .400 mark on the part, making sure I stop and reverse the cross slide at .400 on the DRO to bring the cutting bit back to the center. The depth of the bore I want is .250”, so I repeat this 23 times, saving the last 0.020” of depth to finish after I get the diameter to  .814” So, a couple of finishing cuts on the bore, and a couple finishing cuts on the depth and I get a nice .814” diameter bore .250” deep in the end of the die holder.




Here with the bore complete:



Here with a die slipped into it.



That is as far as I have gotten today. Next I am planning to cut small flutes down the outside part for grip using the rotory table and maybe a .25 ball end mill. (My knurling tool is too small for this part.)

More to come...

Russ

[dsquire]

Russel

Nice work there. These should work fine for you when you have a need for them. Nice pictures too by the way.

Cheers

Don

[Bernd]

Russel,

I can't believe you could push the Sherline to such an extend. What do I mean? Well, the third picture down shows that you parted off a 1.25" diameter piece. Also at the point where you cut it off, way past the chuck using a steady rest.

I'm thinking if this doesn't prove to people that such can be done on a small machine as the Sherline, it surely can be done on a much bigger machine.

I'm impressed.  

Bernd

[Darren]

Me too, well impressed...

This chap does some good work with small tools
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.deansphotographica.com/machining/projects/reductionpulley/5.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.deansphotographica.com/machining/projects/reductionpulley/reductionpulley.html&usg=__DgeH5Kh6L2KtXdmbATmTdHzp1ic=&h=480&w=672&sz=112&hl=en&start=51&sig2=cuCw_VXFpFW_Xn4lgwUj4g&um=1&tbnid=N9iLmgel6elTDM:&tbnh=99&tbnw=138&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddividing%2Bhead%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GB:official%26hs%3D3Vx%26sa%3DN%26start%3D42%26um%3D1&ei=fmv9SoW-Ls7D-QbA2uGiDQ

[Bernd]

Darren,

Yes he does. I have his web site in my Favorites Taig Lathe Maching Projects

Bernd

[Russel]

...the third picture down shows that you parted off a 1.25" diameter piece. Also at the point where you cut it off, way past the chuck using a steady rest.

I'm thinking if this doesn't prove to people that such can be done on a small machine as the Sherline, it surely can be done on a much bigger machine.

The more I use these little Sherline machines, the more I like them. 1.25" is about the biggest size I will part off. I use a machinist square and very carefully make sure the cut off tool is straight, the three jaw chuck is nice and snug as well as the steady rest. The steady rest is as close to the end of the part as I can get it. The gib sticks out a little on that side of the saddle. Notice all the grease on the steady rest and the cutting fluid on the part. I'm never shy with the lube when using the cut off tool, although it is a PITA to clean up afterward.

It's kind of funny...I must have spent an hour last night going over Dean's website. There is some very fine work there! I kept thinking to myself: I can do better!

Thanks for the nice comments,

Russ

[Gerhard Olivier]

Nice work on that and good job with parting the Ali -- I would rather part mild steel that ali myself, I use the band-saw mostly for parting ali. ANy tips would be welcome.

Gerhard

[Russel]

Today I only had time to cut the “grip” and drill and tap a 8-36 for securing the dies. I removed the 4 jaw chuck from the lathe and mounted it to the Sherline CNC rotary table and mounted it to the mill with the vertical mount. Everything set up square, used a edge finder to zero on the end of the part and center the part. I was thinking that I would use a .250 ball end mill, but after thinking about it I decided to go with a 3/32” ball end mill and 30 divisions on the part.



Here is me attempting to get an idea how it would look.



Here is after the cuts. A little crude and course. I should have used the 1/8” ball end mill with about .015” depth, instead of the 3/32” with .030” depth. Oh well, this is the first time I have tried this and hopefully it will look better next time. I does, of course, provide plenty of grip for turning the die by hand.



Then, I spot drilled, drilled and tapped for the 8-32 screw that will hold the die in place.



And again, a test fit with a 13/16” die.



Almost done, but that's it for today.

Russ

[Bernd]

Nice work on that and good job with parting the Ali -- I would rather part mild steel that ali myself, I use the band-saw mostly for parting ali. ANy tips would be welcome.

Gerhard

I use Tap Magic when parting off on my Sherline or 10" Logan, Works great. The other secrete is as Russel stated. The tool being square to the work.

Bernd

[Bernd]

Russel,

Nice looking grip. It has got to be more comfortable than a knurl.

Bernd

[Russel]

Geroli, for parting the Aluminum I also use Tap Magic, same as Bernd. I hear that WD-40 work well as a lubricant for Aluminum, but I have the Tap Magic so I haven't tried anything else yet.

Well, I was thinking that I might shorten the tap guide, but I decided against it. My little Sherline lathe has 17” between centers, so the length is no problem. Plus, I like being able to fit three fingers and a thumb on the guide with the “grip” mostly for my thumb. I'll find out later when I get a chance to put it to good use. That's one of the great things about making your own tools. You can make them as you like and change them as you like.

So, at this point I flip the part end for end and center it in the 4 jaw chuck on the lathe. Then face the end.



Next, bevel the center hole and outer edge.



A while back I made a shaft out of stainless steel to thread into my quarter inch Jacob's drill chuck. I figure that I can use that with the die guide so I thread the back end of the die guide 3/8” - 24. (More Tap Magic for Aluminum used here.)



I decided to relieve the end .010” so that the guide would sit straight if I ended up mounting it by the threads. (Also, because it's easy and look cool.)

The finished product:


The die guide with the SS shaft that I made a while back.


and again with a tommy bar.


I've got some materials in shipment right now, due to arrive Monday, so when I get the shipment I'll post some threading results. 

Russ

[Gerhard Olivier]

Russel that is a very nice looking tool - love the fluted grip- you are going to love using it.

Thanks for the tap magic tip I didn't know they do tap-majig for ali.  will try to find some.


Are you going to use the dies in the holder directly or are you gong to make pre set-up holders,  Reason I ask is it looks like you have only one grub screw and if you use the die directly in the holder you need one to split the die and two to hold/close the split die. (could be that I just cant see them in the pics???)

Nice job I love making tools, and seeing others make tools is my favorite part of madmodders.

Gerhard

[Bernd]

Gerhard,

Tap Magic works on all types of metals. It is not metal specific.

Russel,

What are those tips you use on your tooling, carbide? or HSS?

Bernd

[Russel]

Are you going to use the dies in the holder directly or are you gong to make pre set-up holders,  Reason I ask is it looks like you have only one grub screw and if you use the die directly in the holder you need one to split the die and two to hold/close the split die. (could be that I just cant see them in the pics???)

I'm not sure I understand you, should I have one grub screw for the dimple in the side of the die and one for the split in the die? The die has a screw in it to adjust it and two dimples 180 degrees apart.  I thought I only needed one grub screw to hold the die in place, so I only made it with one...it would be easy to add another.

Gerhard,

Tap Magic works on all types of metals. It is not metal specific.

Russel,

What are those tips you use on your tooling, carbide? or HSS?

Bernd

There is a Tap Magic for aluminum, take a look on the left side of the photo with the die guide in my lathe, the photo that has the tommy bar on the guide. The stuff for aluminum is much thinner that Tap Magic Pro. I never tried tap magic pro with aluminum, so I can't really say which works better. I also have Tap Magic EP-extra that I just got for working with stainless steel, but I haven't tried it yet. Of course, just because they make all these different types of Tap Magic doesn't mean that plain Tap Magic pro wouldn't work as well.

I have several carbide cutting tools. I use carbide cutters almost exclusively. It seems to last forever, and give a good finish. The tools I have all use a 55  or 80 degree carbide cutter. I have left,  right and center tools that use the 55 degree carbide cutter, left and right that use the 80 degree cutter, and two boring bars one with 55 and one 80 degree cutters. I bought a box of ten of each cutter, but I have yet to replace a single cutter, or even flip one to it's other end. I do have some HHS blanks that I will be grinding for cutting .010” and .015” oil grooves in a project that I am working on, so I'll be learning more about using HHS in the near future.



Here with a penny so you can get an idea of the size.






The tooling is all 3/8” and in the group photo the mirror version of the one on the left is currently mounted to the lathe tool post. Also, I didn't dig the boring bars out to put in the photo, but you can see the 80 degree boring bar in the photo where I cut the spot for the die.

Russ

[Gerhard Olivier]

Russel to be honest I have never seen a die like yours before.

On the ones I have always used there is 2 dimples 45 deg on each side of the split.  When you set them up you cut a thread and test it if it is to tight you slack up the split and tighten the other 2 and cut again. If your test is to slack you would unscrew the 2 outer grubscrews and tighten the one in the split more and then try a new piece etc until you are happy with the fit of the thread.

 

How this translates to your die im not sure??  I'm sure somebody here has used the type you have and will be able to tell you if you need to bother with adding the second??  Your third is definitely not necc.

Gerhard

[Russel]

That is interesting. I have never used a split die threading tool before, but I have seen them over the years. Every one that I remember has an adjustment screw to set the thread size, and at least one dimple. The largest split die that I got was #10, so there won't be any huge amount of torque involved it using them. But, I will probably be getting some bigger dies in the future. So, I would like to know the proper way to secure the split die. I took a look at MSCdirect.com where I purchased these "inexpensive" split dies, the die handles all have three grub screws like the tailstock tap and die holder set up you made, geroli. I'm going to do a little research, but it looks like I will probably be adding a couple more grub screws. Thank you for pointing this out to me.

Russ

[Bernd]

Russel,

First, thanks for the pics and description of the tooling. Gonning heve to look into that for my Sherline.

As far as the Tap Magic goes it states on the can that it can be used for all metals and any kind of cutting method. Go figure.

Bernd

[Darren]

I have both types of dies, well just one with the adjusting screw 

I prefer the other with the two/three dimples and no screw, but it's just what I'm used to I guess.

[Russel]

Well, after giving it some thought I decided to simply add another grub screw 180 degrees from the first one so that they would match the round dies that I have. If I get a die without an adjusting screw and dimples at 45 degrees from the split, I can simply add a couple more grub screws to the guide. Here is a photo...it looks like the grub screws arn't lined up, that's just the photo. I assure you, there are exactly 15 grooves on either side of each grub screw.



Again, with a die.



I should be getting some drill rod that I ordered today. When I get a chance I'll cut some threads and post the results.

Russ

[Russel]

I got a chance to play in the shop a little today, so I cut some threads with one of the “inexpensive” dies. The material is W-1 drill rod, also know as silver steel, if I'm not mistaken. I sawed about 2” of .250" diameter and faced the two ends. Then centered it in the 2.5” 4 jaw chuck. I wanted to spend a little time cutting the material, seeing as how I've never worked with drill rod and wanted to get a feel for it. So, I decided to turn it down to .125” for about an inch and thread it 5-40. (The American National Standard screw number sizes are kind of strange but I found that you multiply the size by .013" and add .060" and you get the diameter for the size. The exception is size number 0 which is .060" So, .013" X 5 = .065" plus .060" =.125") Well, it didn't take long for me to figure out that I couldn't cut it down to .125 for 1” unsupported. By the time I had it turned to .150” the unsupported end was .003” larger than the chuck end. So, I busted out a follower rest for it's first use. (I went tool crazy a couple years back...yet another “had to have” tool.)  The setup was pretty straight forward. I did have to chase some 10-32 threads on one part of it and file a bevel in the corner of the brass followers but the thing worked perfectly. I was really amazed. I figured that because I had a taper it wouldn't completely straighten out the part, but with one .010” pass the taper was less than .001”  I also figured out that once you get the cutting bit close to the chuck you can stop, back the followers out and finish the cut. The part didn't need support once you got close to the chuck. I also figured out (and I know better) not to let the follower come in contact with the chuck.



Anyway, here is the result.



Then I set up my new handy dandy die guide with a 5-40 die in it.



I used a little Tap Magic EP-extra to lube the cutter and was surprised how well the guide worked. I could thread the part just using my hand to turn the body of the guide, but found it much easier to use the 4” tommy bar to turn the guide.  So, here is what I ended up with:



Not too bad considering the quality of the die. One thing that kind of surprised me was how the end of the part came out. The blank was straight and before I used the die, I put a 45° bevel on the end, but it came out with kind of a taper.



Well, I'm satisfied with it for now. I should work OK for some little steam engine projects.

Russ

[mklotz]

Just a note...  The formula

major diameter = 0.060 + N * .013   [N = screw number]

works for the sub '0' sizes as well if you use negative numbers for N.

00 => N = -1
000 => N = -2
0000 => N = -3

So, for example, the major diameter for a 00-90 thread is:

MD = 0.060 - 1*0.013 = 0.047

Numbering screws is an idiotic nomenclature (the sensible way is to label them by size as in 1/4-20) but at least in this case there is a formula for the relationship.  Formulae are easier to remember than a long list of equivalences.

[Russel]

I had to do some looking on the net to find references to 00 thru 0000 sizes. The Machinery Handbook starts the sizes at 0, I looked in mine, edition 22 and my Dad's, edition 11. Finally found the itty bitty sized on the net. It is interesting that wood screw sizes follow the same scheme up to size 24 for the shank diameter.

[mklotz]

Nomenclature for a series of things like screws (machine or wood) or drills should follow certain rules...

The system should be open-ended at each end so that, should a smaller or larger size evolve, it can be fit into the sequence without the need for idiocies like 0000-160.

It should follow a natural progression, i.e., smaller numbers/letters should denote smaller sizes, and v.v..

The system should provide immediate information about the size without the need for laborious decoding.

Applying those rules, it's easy to see how flawed numbered screw and drill designators, letter series drills and wire and sheet gage numbers are.

Though it's not part of the SI, in the metric-using world, most things are labeled with their size.  This is about the only nomenclature system that agrees with the rules above.

[andyf]

Marv: Though it's not part of the SI, in the metric-using world, most things are labeled with their size.  This is about the only nomenclature system that agrees with the rules above.

Tho' I'm no particular advocate of the metric thread system, it does have its advantages. Even my mathematical ineptitude can cope with working out the tap drill size by subtracting the thread pitch from the major diameter, like for M5, where 5mm minus 0.8mm = 4.2mm for the tap drill.

Andy

[mklotz]

Works in the (hack, spit) Imperial world too, Andy.

For example, a 1/4-20 thread:

1/4 - 1/20 = 4/20 = 1/5 = 0.20

Then, of course, because of the screwy drill nomenclature, one has to consult a chart to determine that the drill closest to 0.20 is a #7 or #8.