Division Master - has anyone experience?

[raynerd]

I`m not jumping in ahead of myself here but I`m on the verge of spending £50 for a dividing plate set and then even when I have purchased that, I`ll need to either make or purchase extra division plates for more divisions. I`ve been interested in this product for the last few weeks: http://www.jeffree.co.uk/divisionmaster.html

It is expensive, your talking:

Assembled unit      £200
PSU                     £ 35
Nema23 motor       £ 45
4" Table mount      £ 40
Shipping               £  7     
VAT @ 15%           £ 49.05
Total               £376.05 

It would be a hell of a lot cheaper if I could put the unti together myself but electronics is not my strong point. I also could knock off the price of the Nema23 motor as I have a few here that should suit. Obviously this hooks up to my Vertex 4" using the table mount.

It would then give me unlimited divisions and all CNC controlled so no issues with getting mixed up in my rotations!

Is this quite a lot of money for what it is or does or do you think it is worth it? Birthday and Christmas are all coming up so as pathetic as it sounds, now is the time to decide! If I even upgrade my RT with the correct adaptor it can be fitted on that so it should never be redundant.

Any thoughts?

http://www.jeffree.co.uk/divisionmaster/examples.html

[John Rudd]

Chris,

Rather than spending £35 for a power supply why not have a look on Ebay?

All you need is power supply that outputs 24v dc and is capable of sourcing 3 amps....

like this one: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/24V-3A-DC-Universal-Regulated-Switching-Power-Supply_W0QQitemZ260395725639QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_ConsumerElectronics_PowerAdaptors_SM?hash=item3ca0cb7347

[John Stevenson]

Yes I have one, serial number 00001 in fact as I did a lot of testing work on it when Tony was building them, in fact most of the tables, dividing heads etc on the examples page are mine.

I think they are worth the money as I run a repair shop and mine is in pretty constant use off and on, put as you say they are expensive.

There are alternatives.

The closest is a built it yourself box that is very close to the Division-master, guy called Steve Ward build it and it's somewhere on CNC Zone [ don't ask me where that site is a minefield ] He will sell pre programed chips so it you are not into loading source code into chips that answers the question.

You will still need a driver for the motor and a power supply, the DM has an inbuilt driver but Steve's idea is they are cheap enough and more reliable to buy an off the shelf one. Ketan at ARC sells a good one bigger than the DM for £38 ?

I also am no good at small electronics, probably something to do with the MiG welder not going low enough  so what I have done in the past is to find someone interested who has the skills to build it and test it, then buy all the components for two and we both get one each.

I think the kit of parts for Steve Wards box works out to about £45 but don't hold me to that.


Simplest if the One Step from Roy Harding at DIY-CNC.

Like a DM but no keyboard just a pulse count up and down. You need to approach a job with a spread sheet of count numbers based on divisions steps per rev and gear ratio of the table, sounds hard but once worked out it doesn't alter only divisions and excel will do this for you.
Press the button and stop at the next reading, if you over reach go back a load to take backlash out and go back.
Cost is about £60 for one with a driver in and £46 for one without.

If you can find a working laptop with parallel port or handle a PC in the shop then you can do it for next to nothing. Turbo CNC runs on DOS and will actually run 6 axis, in a simple setup you can have just the dividing head running or run the head and the table as a power feed.

This is also a free Australian program that runs in Windows 98 or 2000 that was written for clock makers and this does the same as above, one or two axis, again free but in both cases you need a driver, motor and  mounting kit.

I think that's it for now , go away and study then come back with specify questions.

I'd be lost without mine even though we must make well over 300 sets of dividing plates per year   

John S.

[raynerd]

Thanks John for the time taken in your reply.

If you can find a working laptop with parallel port or handle a PC in the shop then you can do it for next to nothing. Turbo CNC runs on DOS and will actually run 6 axis, in a simple setup you can have just the dividing head running or run the head and the table as a power feed.

This is also a free Australian program that runs in Windows 98 or 2000 that was written for clock makers and this does the same as above, one or two axis, again free but in both cases you need a driver, motor and  mounting kit.

I currently have a PC with parallel in the shop which I attempted to use to convert my X2 mill to an X-axis power feed. I used Mach3 to run the motor and I got it running, jogging at least with the keyboard. I purchased a Routout CNC driver 2.5amp and hooked up my 270 oz, 2.8 amps. Around 85 VDC max bipolar stepper motor. The motor was not big enough to be used functionally as a power feed, it just struggled too much.
So your saying by using a stepper motor directly connected to the RT and a suitable programme on the PC, I could have something similar to the DV at a cheaper price. I already have the motor, controller and power supply and I guess for a rotary table, torque is not an issue.

Like you said, I need to read up on this but since it is a route I have already done some research in, I will look into it again.
Chris  

[kvom]

Without knowing what you are trying to do it's hard to advise.  That said, I have had no problems whatsover using a manual rotab for model parts.  Turning the table by hand gives you feedback on the machining forces that you would lose here.  If you plan to convert your mill to 3-axis CNC, then you need a rotab only for 4th axis.

If you want to use it as a vertical dividing head to cut gears or splines, then it's a decent solution.  For that kind of money I can think of a lot of things I'd rather have for the shop.

[raynerd]

Hi Kvom, yes the sole use would be for accurate dividing for gear cutting.

[bogstandard]

What you really have to look at is the cost effectiveness of the purchase.

I have just spent 200 squid on a set of module cutters, on the understanding that if I make X amount of gears, they will be paid for, and I have already seen that I will be able to easily reach that figure, if my system ends up working.

Now you have a choice of a dividing head costing 40 odd squid, or the electrogizmo costing a damned sight more. Both will do the same job, but one is quicker to use.
Speed is the game of production workers, not hobbyists.

John Stevenson uses his for production work, and my shop is designed for the same sort of thing, but on a smaller scale, so the costs are usually recouped very quickly. In your case, unless you are going into business making clock gears, the way I see it, it would be very hard to justify the investment for the small quantities produced. Your gears are going to cost you a lot more than they would be to buy from someone else.

Throwing large amounts of money at a hobby is a fatal trap you shouldn't fall into, unless you can make the tooling pay for itself.


Bogs

[mklotz]

Throwing large amounts of money at a hobby is a fatal trap you shouldn't fall into, unless you can make the tooling pay for itself.

Boy, now there's a bit of real wisdom that ought to be engraved on the wall of every hobby shop in the world.

[bogstandard]

Marv,

I have seen shops on the net, costing many tens of thousands of whatever, run by amateur machinists that really haven't got a clue what they are doing, and all they seem to do is polish the machinery and tooling, and display it like an old masters painting. Never to be used in anger. Just sharpen the odd centre punch now and again, or dare I say, now and again, actually cut metal with them.

No matter how meagre the tooling, it should be used to the best of it's and your ability.

I survived with old machinery and tooling for a very, very long time, until I found out that if what I did was done correctly, I could make the shop pay for itself, or even make a small profit. It is now at a stage where I could afford a lot more, but I don't do it because I have what I need to do the job at this time.

I would love to buy myself a small CNC mill, but at this time, I can't take in the work that would justify the cost. Maybe sometime in the future.

In my early days, I would make do with what I had, and I personally think that if more people did that, they would learn a lot more about being a model engineer or machinist, rather than trying to buy the experience.

It has taken me over 40 years to get to the stage I am at (and I only know a tiny bit about of what is out there), not overnight, as a lot of new players seem to think is all it takes.

Experience cannot be bought, it has to be learned and earned, usually the hard way.

Some expensive gizmos help, but they don't usually solve the problems in the most cost effective way. There are usually a lot of cheaper options to get the job done just as well.


Bogs

[John Stevenson]

I currently have a PC with parallel in the shop which I attempted to use to convert my X2 mill to an X-axis power feed. I used Mach3 to run the motor and I got it running, jogging at least with the keyboard. I purchased a Routout CNC driver 2.5amp and hooked up my 270 oz, 2.8 amps. Around 85 VDC max bipolar stepper motor. The motor was not big enough to be used functionally as a power feed, it just struggled too much.
So your saying by using a stepper motor directly connected to the RT and a suitable programme on the PC, I could have something similar to the DV at a cheaper price. I already have the motor, controller and power supply and I guess for a rotary table, torque is not an issue.

Like you said, I need to read up on this but since it is a route I have already done some research in, I will look into it again.
Chris  

OK you have a PC, you have Mach 3 , you have a driver from Routout [ hawk - spit - ding ] and you have a motor.
If it was working you must have a power supply, don't understand the 85 volt bit as routouts drives want 30 volt max or they go bang ??????

You have a rotary table so all it looks like you are missing is the coupling piece and an oldham coupling to go between the two.

I'm machining a shed load of coupling tubes and mounts so can do an extra one if needed, ARC sells the oldham couplings.

John S.

[raynerd]

JohnS - you make it sound so easy!

When I got my motor turning I could jog it either way but didn`t have a bloody clue how far each step was taking it and couldn`t seem to calibrate it! Anyway, if I sorted this out then I totally see how this would work and could certainly be a good way to go since I have most of the parts needed and an idea of how to get it setup.

I`ve just been on Arcs site and looked at the Oldham couplings and I`ll be honest, as usual, can`t see exactly what they do. Which would I need to order - does the bore on the oldham coupling need to match the spindle on my stepper motor?
pm heading your way.

Chris

[John Stevenson]

Of course it's easy when you have done 10,000 of them 



No seriously it's not that hard.
For the Oldham coupling you need 3 pieces, all bought separately, one 25mm piece to fit your motor shaft, probably 1/4" or 6mm, one piece to fit the rotab where the handle goes and the torque disk that goes between the two.

The coupling piece screws onto the table where the 3 holes for the plates are and the flange goes on the motor, you may have to cut the thread off the end of the worm shaft to get the coupling on the parallel part.
don't worry it won't wreck it, if you need to ever go back to manual you drill and tap it and fit a bolt instead of a nut.

John S.

[raynerd]

Of course it's easy when you have done 10,000 of them 

 

  I think I need to do some reading and research.

[Davo J]

What you really have to look at is the cost effectiveness of the purchase.

Throwing large amounts of money at a hobby is a fatal trap you shouldn't fall into, unless you can make the tooling pay for itself.


Bogs

Hi John,
I was just reading this tread and noticed your thoughts in the post above on buying machines and tools.
When I buy machinery and tools from say from $500-$5000, I have people asking me if I am going to make my money back on them. I then ask them if I was to buy a new motor bike for $10000-$20000 would they ask me the same question, there both hobbies.
I used to ride off road motor bikes but after a serious neck/back injury (not related to bikes) 4year ago I sold them and bought more machines and tools with no thought of making money (though it does come sometimes).
If I was in business and making a living out of it I would look at it differently, but for me and allot of us it's just a hobby.
Everybody has a money pit hobby whether it be golf, RC models, trains or whatever, but when it comes to machines and tools most people’s perception is that you have to make money off them to cover the cost, Why.
Just my thoughts on buying hobby machines and tools.
Dave

[dsquire]

Hi John,
I was just reading this tread and noticed your thoughts in the post above on buying machines and tools.
When I buy machinery and tools from say from $500-$5000, I have people asking me if I am going to make my money back on them. I then ask them if I was to buy a new motor bike for $10000-$20000 would they ask me the same question, there both hobbies.
I used to ride off road motor bikes but after a serious neck/back injury (not related to bikes) 4year ago I sold them and bought more machines and tools with no thought of making money (though it does come sometimes).
If I was in business and making a living out of it I would look at it differently, but for me and allot of us it's just a hobby.
Everybody has a money pit hobby whether it be golf, RC models, trains or whatever, but when it comes to machines and tools most people’s perception is that you have to make money off them to cover the cost, Why.
Just my thoughts on buying hobby machines and tools.
Dave

Dave

I think that you have hit the nail square on the head with your remarks. I know people that don't think twice before spending $10.000.00 on a snow mobile that they might get to ride a dozen days a year because they are at the mercy of the weather. In southern Ontario some years you are lucky to get 6 good rides in a season. The same person wouldn't dream of spending $500.00 to $1,000.00 for a table saw or other piece of equipment that they could enjoy every day of the year without being at the mercy of the weather.

For some strange reason we think that it is OK to spend a bunch of money on some items but not others. I think that we have to start thinking what we really want to enjoy and spend on that instead of what the Jones's think we should be enjoying. 

Cheers 

Don

[bogstandard]

Dave,

I think you have got the wrong end of the stick.

I know for a fact that Craynerd is strapped for cash at this time for large outlays, if he is going to get his job finished, he is going to have to look at cheaper ways of getting jobs done. Hence the warning.

With regards to spending money on your hobby. You are quite right, they do spend it on some really unecessary (in our eyes) items at times. I spend large amounts of loot in my shop, because I can, but I don't spend it unwisely.
I will look for REAL bargains all the time, and usually pass my findings onto the members if the items are still available, but the governing factor for me is always, WILL I GET THE CORRECT AMOUNT OF USE OUT OF IT, AND IF A LARGE PURCHASE, IT MUST BE ABLE TO PAY FOR ITSELF IN THE LONG RUN.

If you have the readies, then it is up to you what you spend it on, that is your choice, and yours alone.

But I have seen over many years, newbies coming into the 'hobby', all glassy eyed when he sees a new bit of kit, and to keep up with the Jones's, loads up his credit cards with all sorts of gizmos and big iron, and then finds the hobby is not for him. Usually ends up way out of pocket and paying for it for many years to come. Hence the warning.

The ideal system is to not have to pay for anything yourself, and with a little effort and experience, you can get other people to pay for it. I don't own a credit card, so my shop has been built thru hard work, good negotiation and being very astute with the finances. I am not now looking to make a living at it, but if I can have the use of a shop that costs me nothing, then that will be great.

I had a dream for my workshop, and it worked very well for a time, until my personal circumstances changed earlier this year, and things had to stop. But I am still looking to the future for when the problems are no longer there, one way or another. So I am staying ahead of the game by preparing for that time, when the shop will again be working as my dream intended. Costing me nothing, other than my time.


Bogs

[Davo J]

(I think you have got the wrong end of the stick.)
No I think we are talking about the same thing that is that this is a hobby that is expected to pay for itself.


(I know for a fact that Craynerd is strapped for cash at this time for large outlays, if he is going to get his job finished, he is going to have to look at cheaper ways of getting jobs done. Hence the warning.)

I would rather not discuses another member finances, I only know of him on the forum not personally like you. But from what he asked on here I thought he was asking if it was worth it.  Not if you thought he had enough money in the bank. As far as he said was (Birthday and Christmas are all coming up so as pathetic as it sounds, now is the time to decide!)


(With regards to spending money on your hobby. You are quite right, they do spend it on some really unecessary (in our eyes) items at times. I spend large amounts of loot in my shop, because I can, but I don't spend it unwisely.
I will look for REAL bargains all the time, and usually pass my findings onto the members if the items are still available,)

Agree, some people spend silly amount on hobbies they only use once. I think most of us on here look for real bargains I know I do. I spend most of my cash money on needed shop stuff like you, also because I can.


(but the governing factor for me is always,WILL I GET THE CORRECT AMOUNT OF USE OUT OF IT, AND IF A LARGE PURCHASE, IT MUST BE ABLE TO PAY FOR ITSELF IN THE LONG RUN.)

That what I was getting at with this hobby why it has to pay for itself sure, it would be nice but, it shouldn’t have to be expected. Also John, no need to shout.


(But I have seen over many years, newbies coming into the 'hobby', all glassy eyed when he sees a new bit of kit, and to keep up with the Jones's, loads up his credit cards with all sorts of gizmos and big iron, and then finds the hobby is not for him. Usually ends up way out of pocket and paying for it for many years to come. Hence the warning.
As far as newbie’s, at least they might learn something on the way through (maybe finance as well) and as you said "If you have the readies, then it is up to you what you spend it on, that is your choice, and yours alone."
The ideal system is to not have to pay for anything yourself, and with a little effort and experience, you can get other people to pay for it. I don't own a credit card, so my shop has been built thru hard work, good negotiation and being very astute with the finances. I am not now looking to make a living at it, but if I can have the use of a shop that costs me nothing, then that will be great.)

The ideal system would be nice but is not mandatory. I don’t have a credit card either, all hard work and cash here also. A full home workshop has been my dream since I was about 18 and I am nearly there.


My post was not directed at you, only the hobby in general, and why people think if you buy a machine and tools that they have to make money when it’s only a hobby.
Regards Dave

[bogstandard]

Dave, we will agree to disagree on this one, and leave it at that, if that is acceptable to you.

John

[Davo J]

John,
Yes I agree,we will leave it at that and moove on.
Dave

[djh82uk]

Hey Guys

Ive only recently found this forum and have been reading for the past few days, I think i have found a new home, there seems to be a lot of helpful, experienced people on here that are willing to share their knowledge.

I have a small workshops (lathe, cnc mill, bandsaw, welders etc) but my experience lies in electronics.

I really wanted a 4th axis for my mill, so i set about doing one myself, if I can find the pics i will post them up, here is what I did.

I bought a rotary table & matching chuck from RDG Tools for about £100
I bought a 2Nm Stepper motor for £20 from Ebay
I bought a 3.2A Stepper driver for £32 from motion control products.
I bought a flexible Motor coupling from ebay for around £10 that had a 1/4" hole one end and a 10mm hole the other.
Everything else was made from aluminium lying around.

I cut 2 plates out of 1/4" thick ali, one to mate onto the motor, the other onto the rotary table. I made 4 standoffs, drilled and tapped, the plates had recesses for the standoffs to help with rigidity.  i then had to cut the worm gear down to length in the bandsaw and cleaned it up on the lathe, i then put it all together.

I had a problem, I either had a lot of backlash, or a medium amount of backlash and it was so difficult to turn that the motor struggled, making it near useless, this is the biggest problem with doing it this way and there are plenty of posts on cnczone to that affect with no real solutions, the backlash adjustment on them is not effective enough.

Eventually I took a set of feeler guages and tried different combinations between the bottom of block that bolts to the table (I guess it is kind of like a guide for the worm shaft).  Eventually I found it, my magic number was 0.32mm, with it I had 0.005 degrees backlash, for my workshops capabilities that was quite impressive.  By using the feeler guages I was angling the worm drive ever so slightly make a much better mesh, it was very smooth & possitive to turn by hand afterwards.

The holding torque in the motor is enough to act as a lock on the table when you are drilling etc, it can be used both horizontally & vertically, there is software on the internet that does the same thing as a division master, but I tend to just type in how many degrees to move if Im doing something simple like drilling hold x amount of degrees apart around a diameter.

But then it is a lot easier to do other things aswell, for instance I had an old machine tool that was missing the imperial dial (like the dials on each axis of a lathe), so i swapped one of the axis on the mill, and drew the guage in the correct increments in a straight line, the length of which equaled the diameter of the dial, set the machine to go and had a very good imperial dial.

Some things are just that much easier to do with cnc and it does not have to be silly expensive, for instance a cnc rotary table for less than £170, I have converted an X2 mill to cnc for less than £600 including the cost of the mill.

i hope by being here I can learn a lot more about the manual side of things as i truly am a novice, but if I can help with the cnc side of things then even better.

DJH

[djh82uk]

Ok have atatched a pic, this is before I made it better with the shim, I also went over to a felixible motor coupling, got rid of the incremental dial to shorten the standoffs, aswell as made them bigger.

A lot of people don't like the standoff way of doing things due to worries of rigidity, but during a fairl deep cut with a Dial indicator up against the motor bracket, there is no noticable movement on the dial during cuts or when the stepper is rotating at fairly high speed.

DJH