How do I get a chuck of it's morse taper?

[NickG]

I should start by saying if you don't want to read the waffle below, you don't need to if you just want to answer the question in the subject line!!!

I was making some new jaws for my bench vise yesterday, i did them out of aluminium (that horrid shelf bracket stuff I used on my rocking engine). Am thinking I should have made steel ones as they are going to be knackered within a few weeks the stuff is so soft! The plan was to cut v grooves in both directions, just 1 down the middle and 1 right across to make it easier to grip round bar, but my method of doing it with a countersink didn't work very well so I only did the short vertical one. I was planning on doing it with the milling head cranked over with an end mill but didn't want mess up the tramming.

Anyway, getting to the point, when I was about to drill the holes I realised that the chuck supplied with my milling machine is a piece of crap. I thought it was just useless because the starting size is 5mm, but it's actually because it runs like an eccentric too! The 3MT tailstock drill from my lathe won't fit because of the tang, also, I couldn't use the drawbar with it.

So I had a brainwave, I would use the MT from the useless oversized chinese chuck and fit it to a smaller jacobs chuck I used to use with my old lathe.

So a quick blow of the hammer released the shiny chinese scrap, but lots of blows of the hammer didn't release the old chuck. To be fair it's probably been on there for a very long time. How are you supposed to get these things off?

I've probably damaged the thing by hitting it with the hammer now but at least I'll know for next time. I also thought whilst holding the MT in one hand and hitting the chuck with the hammer in the other was a bit dangerous, I was getting a bit close to my fingers, so just gave 1 last big hit for good measure .... right on the knuckle of my little finger! Actually, luckily it was just a glancing blow but I was still hopping around thinking I'd broken it! 

Even if I do get it off now, I've realised they are different sizes, the taper bit that fits into the chuck. Will I be able to turn this bit or will it all be hardened? I think the remedy here could be to buy a new chuck! I could get a 3-2MT adaptor but then I still wouldn't be able to pull it up with the drawbar.



Nick

[Darren]

You need to use a wedge between the taper and chuck, that's if your taper has a groove just behind the chuck.

If not could you turn one?

[NickG]

I couldn't see a groove, will have a look. Hmm not sure I'd be confident enough to turn one. I suppose you can get those arbors with 1 soft end, http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Groz-Stub-Arbors-21342.htm then I'd only have the one end to turn, typical it's  a 3/8" drawbar though, suer mine is 12mm!

Nick

[Darren]

You might need to use carbide to turn it. Stick a bit of stock in the chuck, put the stock in your lathe chuck so the arbor facing out.

[75Plus]

If I understand the question you want to remove the chuck from the Jacobs taper on the end of the Morse adapter. I just looked at mine and all the chucks I own (3) are bored through so the  adapter can be tapped loose from inside the chuck.

Joe

[colin563]

i think this is what your looking for

http://arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Chucks/Wedges-Drifts


colin

[NickG]

Darren, if I can get the chuck off, it's the jacobs taper I'll need to turn, wish I had Stews grinder!

Joe, yes, sorry it wasn't very clear, I've only just realised it's called a Jacobs taper today! I bet it is bored right through, will try that. Colin, thanks, if all else fails one of those wedges could be what I need.

I could buy a new chuck like this: http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Axminster-Super-Precision-Drill-Chucks-22128.htm to fit the existing shank but will it really be 0 to 16mm? Or won't it be able to hold small drills?

Anyway, if I can save myself £25 I'm up for that.

Thanks guys.

Nick

[bogstandard]

Nick,

I made a couple of wedges up the other day to get the loctited in taper out of my RT.

Get a bit of metal a little thinner than the gap, measure the widest point of the taper in the gap.

Make the slot a tiny bit bigger than the widest measurement and put a 30deg angle on the end of each one.

For small ones you can just squeeze the two ends together in a vice and the tapers will just pop apart.

One thing you should NEVER do is hit the chuck to remove it. Once done, it will be no use for precision work.

The dark ones were from Arc Euro and the grey ones are the ones I made.


Bogs

[NickG]

Thanks John,

I think that chuck may be scrap by the sounds of it. Don't really know what I was thinking of bashing it  by the looks of it, I'd had a go at doing it before anyway.

Ok, this thread has been useful, now I know how to remove them properly. However, now the question is different - does anybody know where I can get a good accurate chuck for a reasonable price? Key or keyless better for what I'll need? It will be a dedicated chuck for the milling machine. Can't think i'd need it to go above 13mm really. If I do ever need to drill bigger than that I could use my ER collets up to 16mm. That's what I have been using for everything but it's a PITA!

Nick

[John Rudd]

Ok, this thread has been useful, now I know how to remove them properly. However, now the question is different - does anybody know where I can get a good accurate chuck for a reasonable price? Key or keyless better for what I'll need? It will be a dedicated chuck for the milling machine. Can't think i'd need it to go above 13mm really. If I do ever need to drill bigger than that I could use my ER collets up to 16mm. That's what I have been using for everything but it's a PITA!

Nick

Nick sorry to hear of your chuck dilemma.....

As to a new one I bought one of the keyless types from Chronos....about a third of the way down..........


http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/cgi-local/sh000001.pl?REFPAGE=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2echronos%2eltd%2euk%2f&WD=keyless%20chuck&PN=Drill_Chucks_with_Taper_Mounting%2ehtml%23aL_2e#aL_2e

[bogstandard]

Nick,

The keyless ones I now use, I get from RDG, I personally find the build quality and accuracy a lot better, even though they are somewhat cheaper.

http://rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/DRILL_CHUCKS.html

I don't think you will get a large chuck to go from zero, but you can get around that by using a pin vice in it, to achieve the smaller sizes.

http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?sessionID=QOL&pf_id=33442&name=pin+vice&user_search=1&sfile=1&jump=0

Everyone has their own personal view about chucks, so the choice has to be yours.


Bogs

[John Rudd]

Not sure where RDG or Chronos source their chucks from, but the Chronos price does include delivery.....

That said, I was looking for a small 4j lathe chuck and RDG came out tops on price......

[jim]

i've got a couple of the keyless chucks from RDG, they are really good quallity, never had a drill slip yet. the price was VERY good

i've still got my jacobs chucks, they are shorter in the body, so still have to be used on some jobs

[John Hill]

Nick, some chucks, especially screwed on chucks as used on reversable drills, have a screw to hold them on which you can see when the chuck is opened right up and you look inside,  the screw is left hand thread.

Some chucks have a hole right through so you can put a drift in the front of the chuck and knock the taper out, some chuchs although they do not have the hole are actually soft in that area and can be drilled.  Maybe yours is one of the latter?

[bogstandard]

John,

I really did mean it about build quality.

I can't mention where it came from, as it could have come from one of two places, but I have only recently had one burst apart while drilling in the lathe, doing a job for another member, and it could have been very nasty.

The one to replace it will come from RDG, as well as the other sizes of the same pattern which I purchased at the same time as the one that burst apart. I personally will not take the risk of having another one go the same way.

The RDG ones are a much better and more robust design.


Bogs

[John Rudd]

John,

I really did mean it about build quality.

I can't mention where it came from, as it could have come from one of two places, but I have only recently had one burst apart while drilling in the lathe, doing a job for another member, and it could have been very nasty.

The one to replace it will come from RDG, as well as the other sizes of the same pattern which I purchased at the same time as the one that burst apart. I personally will not take the risk of having another one go the same way.

The RDG ones are a much better and more robust design.


Bogs

Sounds like you had a lucky escape there John, (whichever John you were referring to...or both of us )

I wasnt inferring that the cheaper was of inferior quality...

I guess unless you can 'feel' the good before buying you are literally taking your life in your wallet when distance buying.....

[CrewCab]

I have a couple of the RDG chucks, had them about 18 months now and I have found them to be reliable ............ if that helps guys.

CC

[bogstandard]

John R,

Yes it was yourself, and you are quite correct about distance buying. I used to have loads of tooling that I had bought but rejected when they arrived. I am not saying they were bad, as most I have passed onto other people who were grateful for them, anything is better than nothing, when you have nothing. Some of them weren't cheap either, a couple of them were over 100 squid. I dumped a 5C collet chuck not long ago because I was never really happy with it, but no one wanted to take it away because it was a fixed D1-4 mount.

Just to get back onto the subject, most of what I have rejected have come from the same place, but I daren't mention who because of maybe repercussions.

I wonder why I picked you and your recommendation out John?


Bogs

[John Rudd]

John,

I sent you a pm m8...

[Darren]

I find keyless chucks great, even with big drills on the lathe.

The only problem I've had is when tapping, sometimes mine lets go of the tap when the going gets tough, but that might be a good thing 

[bogstandard]

Keyless chucks are absolutely great, until you put a little too much cutting pressure on them, then they have a tendency to tighten up even further.

A Stilson wrench, or a good quality strap wrench works wonders in that situation.


Darren,

Your problem with taps is a well known one, and is caused by the tap material being too hard to be held by the hardened jaws of the chuck, they skate over each other rather than biting in.
That is why drills have soft shanks, and why sometimes chucks chew them up, the more pressure you put on them, the harder they grip.


John

[Darren]

Thanks John, that makes good sense.

I should really use my turret more, I have a proper sliding tap holder for that with a shear pin if I work it too hard ... 

[NickG]

Thanks all, that's been useful. Looks like one will be going on the christmas list. The only thing is, they don't have jacobs tapers so I'd need a corresponding arbor with drawbar. Can anybody vouch for RDG's keyed chucks? The keyless ones do look like good quality though, the big one that came with my mill looks the part and feels smooth just has terrible run out!

Nick