The Breakroom > The Water Cooler

What will happen?

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Divided he ad:
Well John,

You certainly know how to open the can of worms!  



There surely can't be that much left to invent?  New designs however, most all of the "new" models now made are made from a mix'n'match of older stuff aren't they?

Model engineering is a thing that many people like myself stumble across later in life isn't it?
I believe that it will produce many different forms of "engineer" too, the backgrounds of the "new model engineers" will surely have influence on the product designed and built....

For instance, as I see it.....

I am a mechanic by trade, not one with the ability to make detailed plans, I make many things directly as I envision them, the odd little scribbled sketch to assist. almost all of my produced parts are "one off" kind of things. Made using existing plans and re-engineering them on the fly you might say? I will pass on very little machining knowledge in my time, I will try to help anyone if I can but most of what I do is in pictorial form only and as such offers only limited help.


"Design and computer backgrounds" seem to produce other types of model engineers that will re-design the engines (and other things) they see and create extravagant plans and 3D renderings to then follow to the 1000th of an inch tolerance.
These guys are the model engine designers of the future because they will leave a plan behind that others can follow and adapt again and again.


Then there are "the Boggies" of this world, a completely different kettle of fish!
You are the guys who have learnt and acquired the machining talent over many years and do their best to help others learn from it.
You try your best show them how you do it,(people don't always understand I know.... I'm a good example!) how to get around an issue and with the aid of the interweb you are leaving a huge amount of knowledge behind you where once only books or magazines could achieve such. From tooling through to work holding and machining methods, things many of us wouldn't know any other way, you guys are showing many of us the way....
Don't play this down, it is a rare thing to find guys who are willing to help others selflessly and to the extent that you all go to.  :beer:



Model engineering....... I don't think it's dying as such, more taking a different path. For better or worse.....? We will see!












Ralph.




P.S.  I think we should be wary of the "political stuff" it'll ruin many a forum!! I've edited this down greatly to make it easier reading!

John Hill:
[Translated from the Olde Englishe]


--- Quote ---I say unto you that the end is nigh for the skills of the iron working guilds. Maudsley has built his infernal machine which will see us screw filers in the poor house for the rest of our days.
--- End quote ---

bogstandard:
This post has gone off in a different direction than what I envisioned, but it doesn't matter, everyone has come up with their own points and views about the subject. Which is what a forum is all about.

A few have come up with social arguments the sort of mirror my way of thinking.

At one time on the social ladder you were recognised for your skills, but it seems that the modern world has gone to a system where you are recognised and revered by the amount of money you have.

Another very valid point is about making your own tooling. I am guilty as the next person on that score, and I think it has a little to do with my age as well.
To me now, my time is precious, and all those tools that we had to make to get the job done are now readily available for prices that don't justify making ourselves. That is just a sad fact of the way model engineering and machining in general has gone. It is more cost and time effective to do it that way. But don't get me wrong, I still make a lot of my own special tooling and jigs because I look at it from two different angles.

A) Is the tooling available for the job I want to do. If yes I go to the next angle. If not, I get my hands dirty and make it myself.

B) If the tool is available, is it cost effective for me to buy it or make it myself. A good example is the tramming tool. About 130 squid to buy, about 30 squid to make yourself. No arguments, make it myself. Another is a blank end MT arbor. About 5 squid or less to buy, or maybe a couple of hours to make yourself, no arguments from me on that score, I buy it.

But that is just my way of thinking. People get great pleasure from spending hours making the most mundane bit of tooling that only cost pennies to buy. They get their enjoyment from making it, not about how much they have saved in time and effort. Everyone to their own, and those wishes have to be respected to the full, on the understanding that information should be provided for those that won't or can't go down that route, if at all possible.

Now to the point raised by Ralph concerning sharing information.

Now this isn't going to be a Bible or Koran bashing session, I had religion knocked out of me many years ago, but again, everyone to their own. This is to describe a point of view.

I had a long discussion one time with a minister of my then faith, and a statement he made to me is the way I have run my life ever since. He asked me what a Christian was, and I gave him all the usual answers back. He told me I was talking a load of BS.

His way of explaining was, being a 'Christian' is just a way people describe it in our general language, for all other religions and faiths, they would use a different word. 
The true meaning is 'To give freely, and ask for nothing in return'.

So this is now getting back to the point of this discussion.

If it costs you nothing, then why not share it. Then we all benefit from the information.

I have never professed to know everything, and some of my information might be wrong, but if it is found to be wrong, I will admit to it. I share my experiences and information that have come my way over the years, and because I have had such a diverse life, those experiences cover a large area. I could just as easily keep it to myself and everyone will be none the wiser, but by sharing what I know just might strike a spark in someones imagination and take them onto greater things. I don't do what I do for praise or reward, I do it because I want to.

The key ingredient is sharing information. Even a newbie will have something to give into the knowledge base, and I for one will pick up on it. Everyone has something to give, whether it is Bernd's bent nail saga or Zeus's sidewinder build, it all adds up in the melting pot, and we all learn from it. From the easiest little exercise to the very complex builds.

This is the only way that engineering is to survive. The ones mentioned in my original posting passed on information, and many more that weren't mentioned as well. If we can carry on that tradition in the following generations, just maybe that little candle in the distance can be kept lit.

Sermon over, now lets have a bit more of a discussion about this engineering and making stuff thing.


Bogs

NickG:
Some really good points in this thread. I agree on a lot of it.

I think a lot of it is just the way technology is progressing so quickly which is changing the way people are brought up. Because of this, the types of skills we are talking about are disappearing. For example, I would guess the majority of todays youth would prefer to be at some theme park rather than a model engineering exhibition or steam fair and the parents would probably rather get their money's worth and take the kids somewhere they'll enjoy rather than waste it on something they won't. All the old hobbies and games don't exist any more due to computer games, the internet etc. How many kids do you see making their own go-karts these days? So I think modern technology accounts for some of this, i.e. the computer in general. Obviously they play a big part in childrens lives with games etc.  now, but they're everywhere you look.

Another good example someone mentioned was in the automotive industry. People are put off repairing cars these days due to the change in technology. When you open the bonnet of a new car it's bewildering, on the face of it, you think you can't do much to it, so you shut the bonnet and take it to the dealers! Who promptly replace whichever bit needs replacing - they don't repair things any more either. This just gets passed on through the generations then, people have no practical skills.

Partly education is responsible, but more so the upbringing of children I think. I didn't do a great deal of wood or metal work at school but I had an interest from an early age, probably due to spending time at my grandparents doing all sorts in the garage on my own that people wouldn't dream of letting their children do these days ... so maybe that's an over the top safety culture coming into play? So I pursued the hobby myself and was obviously fully backed by my family (which probably wouldn't happen these days either - I see the bewildered look on parents faces sometimes as they look at our models and you can tell they are thinking "what is that and where do you buy them?"!). I joined a model engineering society at 13 with my best friend. He didn't go for long, although he was interested, he just didn't have the passion for it I did. He wasn't brought up around old cars that needed repairing all the time etc. I quickly found that other members, although most of which were about 50 years my senior, had similar child hoods ... I guess you could say I was old fashioned then! I was lucky enough that once my family realised I was deadly serious about the hobby, all my christmas and birthdays reflected that! My mum tells the story now - I was weird, I used to ask for an axe and a grinder every year from the age of about 6 or 7 ... but when I was about 15, I actually got those presents! I was also given my grandads ML7 lathe which was a massive bonus, but if I wasn't given it, I would have got my hands on one somehow. Incidentally, the lathe my grandad had before that was one he had made himself!

An old friend of mine from our club rang me up some months ago asking if my lathe was ok. He was actually going to give me his myford ML7 as he had just ordered himself a nearly new one. I said I'd bought the harrison and I could not have accepted it in any case. He said he offered it to his grandson but he wasn't interested! I know Tom was trying to stir the enthusiasm in his grandson from an early age, he occasionally visited his club, but he obviously didn't do the same type of activities at home as he quickly lost interest. I guess all sorts come into it like peer pressure and all the rest of it.

At the moment my eldest son (3 1/2) is really into it, he spends a lot of time with me in the garage winding lathe handwheels around and playing with some of my unfinished projects - simplicity steam roller and 3 1/2" gauge loco! If his grandma finds out she'll have kittens! But who knows, he could easily lose interest, he's already interested in computers, TV and all the other bad stuff but I'll try my best!

Onto model engineering as we know it. I think bogs post is spot on. I reckon it's going to disappear within another few generations. I think there will be producers of castings and drawings around for a while, but there'll probably be a rise in suppliers of machined kits and finished models for people that can use a screwdriver and executive models. I doubt there'll be many of the likes of the people Bogs mentioned though. I remember when I first joined the our club, there was a really old chap that instead of blindly following drawings and castings spend his time going to the local railway museum, studying and measuring engines. He made some really interesting models of some of the first locomotives, all drawn up and made by studying the real thing. I remember him showing me the wheels which had to be fabricated to match the originals, and they looked spot on! These people are a dying breed.
People like Jan Ridders though, are even fewer and farther between. He's come up with his own concepts, put them into practive and is prepared to get it all down on paper for other people to have a go at.

It's sad, but I don't really see how the hobby can survive.  :( Hopefully it'll see me and my sons out though.

Nick

No1_sonuk:
Computers and the internet have really been a double-edged sword.  On the one hand the games, etc. are drawing the youth away from more practical activities, but on the other, a lot more of the "old hands" can more easilly spread what knowledge they have.  And also have that knowledge available long after they can no longer impart it in person.

WRT "newbies" contributing:  I'd dare say there are numerous examples where such a person asks a question no one had thought of before, or even an old question in a new way, spawning a train of thought in the more experienced which leads to a better way of doing something.

I'm relatively new to this hobby, and am an electronics engineer by trade, but I did do some machine work as part of my apprenticeship 20 years ago.  I've had a lathe since March, and only just got around to making things with it that aren't FOR it.

It's really only recently that I've had the space, and money, to take it up.
It's kind of like someone said Deloreans would sell if they went back into production - All the kids who saw "Back to the Future" and wanted one in the 80s can now afford one!

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