Lathe purchase

[jatt]

hi,

My knowledge on lathes is limited.  

This one has a gap bed and is 900 mm between centres.

Am contemplating purcashing this lathe.  Yeah its a Chinese job.

I am sure it shows up under various rebadging arrangements elsewhere in the world.

Will be using it for light engineering duties (making/modifying various parts from mild steel) for both personal and some stuff for work.

The main issue I have would be setting it up to do small milling jobs.  Assuming from my reseach that a vertical slide is the go, but am always interested in exploring other options

Of couse a dedicated mill is the best way but that will have to wait unfortunately.

Comments both good and bad about this machine would be great thanks.

Jatt

[John Hill]

Jatt, that is from HAFCO?  If I am not mistaken it is almost identical (except for the rounded front on the gear box) to the one that I have and that Mr John Bogstandard, esteemed guru of this very forum, has.

We are very pleased with our machines.  John is I understand experienced in such things and for me it was my very first machine tool.

Everyone who has a worn out American or British lathe (even the owners of some non worn out ones) will tell you that Chinese lathes are rubbish and every importer of Chinese lathes will tell you that theirs is specially made for them and is better than the others!   I really dont know but I do know I am very happy with my Chinese lathe.

[John Hill]

Regarding milling, I have recently bought a milling slide for mine and it was an easy installation and quite satisfactory.  



Such things are limited however in that the travel of the lathe cross slide limites the horizontal  travel of the milling slide and the vertial travel is also limited,  I have not taken any measurements and so far it has not been an issue with my hobby playtime but you could not, for example, skim a cylinder head in it.

Another issue, with my particular slide, is that the work clamping arrangement is rather limited but that can be remedied with a little work.

[jatt]

Thanks John for the reply,

Yes it is a HAFCO from Hare & Forbes here in OZ.  Did a search and saw what was probably that very foto u posted.  From what I could make out of the lathe itself, thought hey that looks like the one I'm investigating.

Another place (Asset Plant & Machinery) have one that also looks remarkably similar.  Badged as "Steel Master".  There seems to be a few small differences between it and the H&F unit like foot break, cover on lead screw, an extra "button" (inching perhaps?) on the control panel, quick change tool post.

The only problem that concerns me at all about Chinese lathes in general is regarding their bearings.  Worked with a bloke (quite an accomplished home machinist) who was rebuilding his brother's after the bearings died.  Said words to the effect that precision units to replace them was a few hundred bucks.  Recon tho once these were replaced it would last quite satisfactorily.   Apart from that I'm pretty much sold.

Any idea how difficult it would be to put a foot break on if the internals match between both machines? 

The quick change tool post sounds very useful to have.

Am sure to have plenty more things to figure out before laying out the $

jatt

[John Hill]

Hi Jatt,  I dont expect to use mine so much that I would wear out even Chinese bearings. Very few of them come up for sale in the local on-line auctions  so the people who buy them seem to be holding on to them which is surely some sort of positive sign?

Mine was not totally without trouble, it started makeing a dreadful racket after running for about five minutes when one of the V belts flew to bits and banged against the guard!  It seems to be quite happy with just one belt for the weight of work I give it. The motor failed after a couple of days but it was an easy thing to swap out when the dealer got me a replacement.  The only other thing so far has been the coolant pump seemed to stop working until I found the  paint they had used on the pump was stripped by the cooland and blocked the works! It has been OK since I picked all the loose paint off though.

Motors might be a weak point as the 2 HP single phase one has to work really hard to get the machine turning in the high speed ranges

I think it might be quite a challenge to fit a foot brake  but no doubt it would be easier if you had the bits off another lathe.

 I do not have the lead screw cover but I wish I did as it is quite difficult to clean the gunk that collects in the half nuts.

The 'buttons' on mine are a pilot light, an inching switch, coolant pump and of course the on/off switch. (It really is the 'off' switch I suppose as the only way to start it is with the handle on the carriage.)

I do not have the quick change tool post and I do not really miss it.  The four sided thing it has is good enough to hold two tools at once, though in theory you could mount four but that would be a bit awkward as they would need quite short shanks on them. Certainly if you are doing a lot of switching between two tools the four sided turret would be as convenient as anything I would think.  However I do not really have much experience and none at all with the quick change tool posts.


Regarding the $$$  I found one that had been in the shop display for a few years in fact I had often looked at it as I passed by and I ended up getting it for half what its original price had been.  That might be useful for you to know.

[bogstandard]

Just to put your mind at rest, the Chinese seem to have got their act together on these larger machines, and all gears and bearings are of reasonable long life quality. Unlike the smaller machines, these are assembled reasonably well and work straight out of the box, I just did a little gib fiddling to get them feeling how I like them. Like John, I had a motor go down, but that was solved straight away, and the old motor, once new caps are fitted will be a permanent spare.

The footbrake is a very worthwhile addition if you can get it on your machine, not only for a fast stop, but a great safety feature. To put one on yourself is not really a beginners project, as there are a few things that need to be specially modified from the standard fit. If you can afford it, go for the machine with it fitted.

I had the leadscrew cover removed from mine by the supplier (I still have it, in case I ever sell the machine) due to the fact that with it fitted, you cannot get close enough with the saddle to do any faceplate work. It restricts the saddle forwards movement by over 2". All you have to do is brush the leadscrew off when you have finished, and I doubt very much you will ever wear the leadscrew out because of a bit of swarf in there.

I also refused to take delivery until they had fitted a much larger chuck guard. With the original, you couldn't get the full swing that the machine is capable of, and it fouled the toolpost when you went close into the head.

One thing you must get into the habit of is parking the power feed shaft in neutral when it isn't being used. Just put the selector knob midway between the two speed ranges (bottom right hand circular knob). I have had a few cloths and swarf that were sat on the drip tray, picked up and wrapped around the shaft . Just a bit of a safety precaution that you can easily get into the habit of doing automatically.

Just a little extra bit, forget about removing the gap bed until you are out of warranty. You will find that if you remove the block, they will not guarantee that the bed will align perfectly when you put it back in, so all bets will be off with regards to your warranty. That was in the small print.
Even though it is there, and nice to know that you do have the facility, I think you would find that you can't get the tool mounted into the position to do a cut all across the face. I have to do a bit of juggling to get it to face the whole of my 12" faceplate.

It is one of these weird selling points, it is there, and in theory, it can be done, just don't try to do it.

Bogs

[kvom]

My advice would be to get a QCTP regardless of the lathe you buy.

[John Hill]

John, my chuck guard is a real nuisance at times too, impossible to use the face plate and almost impossible to use the four jaw and when milling with the collet chuck it is impossible to see the work!

I hate to take a safety item off a machine so when I am trying to do any of those things I tilt the guard up, but not so far the switch clicks, and lock it in position with the little screw that must have been provided for that very purpose.

[bogstandard]

The one they eventually fitted to my machine was a larger commercial one, and is the bees knees.

You can see how large it is, it is great.

The first shot is when the lathe was swapped out, when I sent the old one back as being unfit for specified use. We have laws about things like that in the UK, and I got a lot of things done before I would take delivery of the new machine, but you must get the item home first. It is no use mentioning it in the showroom as they just won't sell you the lathe in the first place.

The second one is after installation.

John

[John Hill]

Looks good John..     I should endeavour to arrange something similar.

[jatt]

Thanks for all the info everyone, its gold. 

one of the V belts flew to bits and banged against the guard!

  Yeah my experience with Chinese belts isnt too flash either.  Was warned about em before I bought my drill press.  Waited till they chewed out (a good 5 min), then purchased some better ones.  Havent had a drama since.

The one they eventually fitted to my machine was a larger commercial one, and is the bees knees.

 
bogstandard dont suppose u have any info on the machine (even a link) that your chuck guard was made for.  Might help us southerners source one.

Been having a look at the lathe thats sitting at my local shop.  Looks like a lotta fun (not) to remove, reattach the leadscrew cover.  Can see the point that was made

you cannot get close enough with the saddle to do any faceplate work. It restricts the saddle forwards movement by over 2".

[bogstandard]

When you asked the question, I put a google search for 'lathe chuck guard', there were rather a few hits. It is then a matter of getting your wallet out. Not cheap, but what price safety?

http://www.google.com/products?q=lathe+chuck+guards&rls=com.microsoft:*&oe=UTF-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=A758SvXjNYLz-QbBsJxc&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4

The leadscrew guards are easily removed, as the leadscrew has a 'break joint' very close to the lathe head. It is only the front one that causes the problem.


John

[bogstandard]

I would just like to point out, don't let little things like what I have shown put you off from buying one of these lathes.

Almost all these far eastern lathes will have something on them that you don't like.

I love taking salesmen down a peg or two, and sometimes cause them real grief when I get it into my mind that they are trying to be too uppity.

I raised so many points to refuse to use the original machine that was delivered, that it actually got back to the manufacturers about a lot of points that I raised, and legal departments were involved. There are problems when it comes to something like removing the leadscrew guards, they are a second fit safety feature, and by certain country's laws, have to be fitted, but they stopped the machine operating over the specified range that was advertised in the sales literature. So now all the specs have been modified by Chester UK, the original machine suppliers, to take into account the issues I raised, and they also put up the price of the machine by 500 squid, supposedly to get quality control upped to a stage where someone like me couldn't complain.

It took me over 3 months to get my lathe replaced, not because of the supplier, they would have swapped it out straight away, but I wanted them to carry out certain mods to allow the then stated specs to be accessible to me before I would accept delivery. In fact they asked me to the factory to inspect the machine after they had finished playing with it, just to make sure it wouldn't be rejected a second time. It was give and take on both sides. They were breaking the law by removing certain bits on the machine just for me, and I backed down on a couple of very minor raised issues.

Both parties ended up happy, me more so, because they threw in a few sweeteners as well, a spare 3 jaw chuck and some extra tool holders for the QCTP, well over a couple of hundred squids worth.

It is not the correct thing to do, accept delivery of a machine, use it, then moan about it all over the net when it doesn't come up to your expectations.  All the supplier is doing is moving a box, in from China, out to you. Normally, with a small machine, he won't know if there are any faults with it. Larger machines are usually given a quick once over. Ours are small machines.

You must give the supplier the chance to put it right in the first instance. If they refuse to do anything, then go public, that usually then gets the gears moving on their part very quickly.

I must say this. Every time I have had issues with Chester UK, they have bent over backwards to get me up and running as fast as possible, unlike a few other suppliers, who always give you the runaround. That is the reason I like dealing with this one supplier, they might be slightly more expensive on some things, but a lot of times not, but the backup just cannot be faulted.


John

[Mike K]

Hi guys,

This brings up a question I've had about refusing delivery.  And I'm in the States, so maybe it's different?

I've heard people suggest inspecting an item before accepting delivery, but how is this possible?  The courier is only responsible for delivery, and damage thereof.  How can they be responsible for manufacturing defects?

I've only tried to inspect one item before accepting delivery and the courier refused to allow it.  The item turned out to be fine, but it would be nice to know that I can avoid return delivery costs and hassle upfront.

Mike

[John Hill]

Mike, the couriers around here are so busy jumping from foot to foot that dont even like me taking the time to turn the package over in my hands to look for external damage.

I do have a few rules I try to abide by but the most important is that I try to do all dealings with just one person.   

[jatt]

Couriers dont get me started there.  "Thought about a career in demolition pal?", definetely applies to some of them.

Even when I was doing some work for a place that repaired medical equipment, it didnt seem to register to some of them that the clearly labelled defib they tossed aound like a toy might be used to jump start someone they cared about.

Anyway the next thing I need to figure out is moving this mass into position and subsequent removal later on.  Will be setting up the whole shed (except the built in shelving)from scratch, so there is bound to be some shuffling around of items.   

One thought is to sit a 8-10 mm plate (heavy RHS frame even) under the stand and weld some lifting tabs (eyes) around the edge.  The idea being that I could bolt up an angle plate when required so a trolley can be used to jack one end.  Chock beneith, use pipe, attach heavy duty casters, take your pick.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the supplied stand doesnt look like it would tolerate being handled in such a fashion without some form of support underneith.

Had a look thru the search section for ideas on placing the lathe onto the stand (no lifting eye on the engine part darn it).  Thinking about a strap around the "webs" in the bed at the tailstock end.  The engine side well still thinking that bit thru.

The conc slab looks reasonably level and flat, weight shouldnt be a prob as have parked 4wd vehicles in the same space previously without issue.  How fussy do I need to be when it comes to levelling a lathe for use?
The idea of using lead flashing as a packer sounds ok to me, but of course I hav'nt actually tried it.

[John Hill]

Hi Jatt

Slinging for lifting was no problem for us, just a sling under the bed close to the headstock taking care to thread the sling inside the feed screw and other rods so as not to put pressure on them.  When you take the sling under the bed take it one turn around the 'foot' so that it cannot slip towards the middle of the lathe.  Put another sling attached near the tailstock end which will keep it level.  Lift it a few inches and reposition the carriage to get a nice balance.  It is easier to do than describe!

The stands are not very robust for moving the lathe around on, actually the stands themselves are not too bad but the connecting panel contributes less than nothing to the rigidity of the whole thing! Once the stands are well bolted to the lathe things are not too bad.

I have a nice smooth concrete slab and I did not want to drill it and neither did I want the lathe standing on the tiny footprint offered by the stands so I made some wooden feet for it:-

The cabinets are bolted down to the feet.

Putting it on the feet made it just the right height for me to use, 5'11".

There are some who seem to be terribly fussy about levelling but as far as I can conclude the important thing is to not twist the bed but I do not see how it would get twisted if it is sitting flat enough to not rock or wobble.  I expect the real twisting happens to those who bolt them down to a surface that is not flat.  I did the best to level mine using an ordinary carpenters level and it is at least a little important if you use the coolant as the chip pan has practically no 'fall' towards the drain.

Whenever I need to move mine from the wall I just pry up one of the feet and slip a piece of pipe (steel electrical conduit) under.

Lathes are really top heavy and only like to be dropped once so I would be very wary of any scheme to lift that did not take account of that.

John

[John Hill]

I found the diagram of how to sling the lathe!




John Bogstandard posted this on another site when I was taking deliver of mine.

[jatt]

Thanks for that.   That pic was just what I was after.

The chip pan that is in my local shop doesnt have a point for drainage of coolant.  Its just a flat piece of sheet thats folded around the edges.

Got talking to a bloke in the shop about draining coolant out of the chip pan.  His solution was to hit the pan with a ball pein hammer enough to create a slight depression in the pan before sitting the lathe down.   The theory being the low spot created will become the drainage point for the coolant once a hole is drilled and fitting connected.

Sounds crude, but I guess as long as it doesnt affect the seating of the lathe.
 

[John Hill]

I didnt find the problem with drainage until after I had the lathe up and running but I managed to fix it easy enough just by putting a block of wood over the drain hole and hitting with a big hammer, that seemed to be enough.

[bogstandard]

If you have the same stand as John and I, you will find there should be some 16mm bolt holes underneath.

I fitted bolts thru, with a nut either side of the plate, and the bolt heads resting on the floor. That gave me eight easily reachable jacking and levelling points to get it spot on level. If you are going to use the levelling feet as I suggest, then put them in before putting the lathe on the top. Once you get the main casting on, it is a real PITA to lift the whole machine high enough to get them in afterwards.

If you are going to shim up instead, lead, ali or even brass, you may as well use blutak instead. The shim has to be a hard material such as steel or cast iron. I used stainless plates with stainless shim material for levelling my mill.
For a lathe, forget about the anti vibration mounts you see advertised. They are OK for something like a compressor to keep the noise down, but no use for machinery that relies on being level for it's accuracy. It is like having the machine mounted on rubber pads, not rigid enough.

Do you need to level a machine of this size?

Well if you don't, expect it to bend like a banana, in all directions. Also don't expect it to be very accurate either.

A lot of people blame the quality of the lathe for size shifting and bad finishes, when in fact it is the operators fault for not getting the machine levelled in the first place.

Mine has repeatable accuracy to at least 0.0005", and in most cases even better. Only because I spent time and effort setting the machine up right in the first place.

Bodge it in, get bodged up jobs off the machine.

In fact, if I suspect anything is wrong with the tolerances on the lathe, the first thing I do is give it a checking over with my very accurate engineers level, and level it up again if it is out. Once the machine has been initially levelled, it only usually takes a few minutes to get it spot on again.


Sermon over


John

[John Hill]

John, if I had a precision level I would be tempted to use it on the lathe bed but until then it will just have to be happy sitting on the four wooden feet where I am sure it will not come to any harm, leastwise none compared to the last four years sitting on broken pallets in the showroom!

The adjustable feet sound like a good idea but I would not do it as I am almost paranoid concerning the rather small footprint of the lathe cabinets and the adjustable feet would reduce that even further.  We had a 7.2 earthquake in this country last month and I live just a few hundred metres from a known fault line, or two,  big feet on the lathe are quite important to me.

Now if I was going to do anything I would be thinking of making long feet from, maybe, heavy wall rectangular hollow section with adjusters at each end.

[jatt]

If you have the same stand as John and I, you will find there should be some 16mm bolt holes underneath.

Sorry if I gave the impression that I had already purhased a lathe, cause I havent yet. Yeah I know lots of questions, but it is a big purchase for me in more ways than one. 

At the same time I am also checking out a unit with a 600 mm bed.  The extra length & removable gap bed on the larger unit would be a nice thing to have, but the overall dimensions would make it a tight squeeze in the workshop.

Spindle nose type --  The shorter lathe is fixed.  The larger unit has D1-4.  Is this D1-4 some sort of collet?

[John Hill]

Hi Jatt, I believe the D1-4 refers to the 'camlock' mounting for the chucks, faceplate etc.  Instead of a big thread on the spindle there is a system involving a short taper and 3 or 6(?) locating/holding pins that lock the chuck to the spindle nose,  very convenient and I suppose safer than the threaded chuck if you run the lathe in reverse!  I think the D1-4 has three pins.

There is some information at http://www.lathes.co.uk/latheparts/page9.html

Changing chucks is very easy with the D1-4 mounting, you just unlock three cams using a chuck key then lift the chuck off, actually if you are not careful the chuck almost falls off which you would not like to happen on a nice new lathe!

Regarding collets, The first lathe you mentioned is a close twin of mine (and John Bogstandard's) and I use collets sometimes.  I believe you can get a collet chuck that fits on the D1-4 which would be very convenient but I do not have one, I have an ER32 collet holder on a Morse taper #3  so what I have to do is take of the chuck and slip a Morse 5/3 adapter in the spindle then the collet holder and put in the drawbar that I made to hold it all tight.

[Davo J]

Since you have not bought one yet another lathe you should consider is this one  https://ishop.gasweld.com.au/ishop/stock/item/580713
I have one and it is a lot better fit and finish than Hare and forbes lathes and around the same price.Customer service is good as well.They do barter on the price a bit if you ask.
Dave