Author Topic: vertical slide  (Read 9239 times)

Online John Hill

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vertical slide
« on: June 26, 2009, 04:15:18 AM »
I bought a vertical slide a few days ago but I wont know how suitable it will be until I get back home on the weekend.



It is 180mm high and 115mm wide, the spigot for mounting in place of the compound slide is about 24.5 diameter and the 10mm mounting holes are about 92mm apart.  John Bogs, will that fit our lathes?  Otherwise I will have to modify somehow, in just a few days I should know..


John

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bogstandard

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Re: vertical slide
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2009, 05:42:40 AM »
John,

I think our spigot might be a little larger, I can't measure mine without taking the topslide off. But it would be an easy job to make a biggering sleeve to go over the one you already have on there.

The holes are 10mm diameter on a PCD of 95mm (as close as I can measure it at this time from a plate I have made).

So you are well within the 'make it fit' ballpark with that one.

Nice find.


John

Online John Hill

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Re: vertical slide
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2009, 03:44:59 PM »
Thanks John,  yes I thought a biggering (careful spelling  ::)) sleeve might be required which would certainly be easier than smallering the spigot.  Good news about the hole spacings! :thumbup:

We are on the ship today and hopefully in the garage tomorrow, though there may be some chores to catch up on! :coffee:
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Online John Hill

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Re: vertical slide
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2009, 05:17:13 AM »
OK, after a  very fast (for me) drive from Christchurch to Picton (about 337Km) we caught an earlier ship and am home already! :ddb:

Now for the question, the mounting holes in this new vertical slide need to be moved about 2mm, so how to do it?  Would it be appropriate to drill the hole bigger, insert a steel plug into the cast iron and drill the new hole?  I guess the plug would have to be brazed into place?

Just to make it a little complicated I need to recess the hole and make a stepped nut (like a car wheel nut) as the foot of the slide is quite a bit thicker than the length of the bolts,
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: vertical slide
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2009, 06:01:17 AM »
Hi John

Would it be posable to make the bush with a off set hole  :scratch:.

Just a suggestion.

Good Luck

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Online John Hill

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Re: vertical slide
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2009, 05:35:23 PM »
Good idea Stew though if I use a bush without the recessed nuts thingy I would need longer bolts in the cross slide which might be OK, another line of thought to consider! :coffee:
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bogstandard

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Re: vertical slide
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2009, 06:20:10 PM »
If you are making the centre spigot larger to fit the hole, then all the bolts are there for are to hold the thing in position.

I am sure it would be easier to make up two new holdown bolts to roughly the same pattern as the others but a little longer, rather than arsing about with recesses and things. It takes only a couple of minutes to take the crosslide off to get the old ones out and the new ones in, and because of the tapered gib, that only takes a few seconds to set up afterwards. It isn't as though you will be swapping and changing every few minutes. As for the holes, just file them in the general direction they need to go and make elongated ones.

K.I.S.S.

John

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Re: vertical slide
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2009, 09:04:42 PM »
K.I.S.S. indeed John.  Dont think for a momet that I have not considered a bit of bodgery with a round file and calling it done but the holes in the slide's base are already recessed and with a sloping bottom to the holes so I do have to put something in there!

But enought of this,  chores are done so down to garage I go!
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Re: vertical slide
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2009, 12:52:29 AM »
John,

I can be very difficult making 'relocation' suggestions without first seeing the problems.

I think what you have is a perfect catch 22 situation.

You need a vertical slide to hold your vertical slide, so that you can machine it so that you can fit it to your machine.


Always problems  :doh:


John

Online John Hill

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Re: vertical slide
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2009, 02:36:49 AM »
This afternoon's effort!


This is the problem, the spigot is too small and the bolt holes are too close together.


A bit of old junk in the lathe, it is part of an old pulley, or something.




Turned off a ring and fitted to the spigot, it is a nice tap on fit but would be better thicker but thats not possible with this particular bit of rusty steel.



A piece of round is turned to fit the recess in the slide base then the end drilled and tapped to take the fixing bolt.




Two of those made, cut off and the ends squared with a few minutes of filing.  This looks OK but is not satisfactory, the holes being off centre mean the nuts are pulling the bolts sideways a little and I fear too much pressure might damage something, maybe crack the casting?



It is good enough though to prove the concept and here we have the slide being used for it's first job drilling a neat row of holes in a piece of junk metal.
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Offline sbwhart

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Re: vertical slide
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2009, 02:52:05 AM »
Nice fix John   :hammer:

That slide looks a good robust bit of kit.  :nrocks:

Stew
A little bit of clearance never got in the road
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Location:- Crewe Cheshire

Online John Hill

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Re: vertical slide
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2009, 02:52:43 AM »
Question for John Bogs, (another!)  You once mentioned you got your cross slide off without removing the chip shield?  Something about the gib strip?  How does that work?  Can the strip be drawn out just by removing the adjusting screw on the closest end?  I can wind the slide off the end of the feed screw, so if I do that and pull the gib strip out can I lift the slide upwards?  Thanks.  (Though these 'nuts' I have made were a satisfying exercise your advice concerning longer bolts


Now the general questions, what milling cutters should I buy to start learning something with this slide?  Are milling cutters OK held in the 3 jaw chuck?  My usual source only lists milling cutters with morse tapers in rather large sizes,  75mm for example.  If I am going to use this slide much should I be looking at a collet chuck and set of collets which I presume makes for cheaper individual cutters?  
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Online John Hill

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Re: vertical slide
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2009, 02:54:15 AM »
Stew, I am very pleased with the slide, it is at least as sturdy as any other part of my lathe and it fits on without any loss of movement etc.
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bogstandard

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Re: vertical slide
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2009, 03:39:07 AM »
John,

If the slide can be screwed completely off the leadscrew, then by screwing out the one you said, the one nearest to you, then you can just pull out the tapered gib. Do NOT touch the back gib screw.

Once the gib strip is removed, the crosslide can just be manouvered off the dovetail, giving you access to drop the said bolts out of the holding ring.

To put back on, remembering first to have your bolts in the retaining ring, engage the leadscrew first, then insert the gib strip and tighten it up until it hits the back adjusting screw, do not overtighten. If you do it right, your gib adjustment should be the same as it was before you took it off. Take the opportunity to pop a bit of oil in there while it is off.

A couple of minutes round trip.

It is not recommended to hold milling cutters directly in your chuck. The hard chuck jaws coupled with the hard material of the cutter, plus the very small contact area between the two is not condusive to get a good holding regime, and normally the cutter will move in and out of the chuck jaws if any sort of cutting pressure is applied.

Really, you should be looking at maybe an ER collet set, that mounts into the morse taper fitting of you spindle, and use a home made drawbar to hold it in position (threaded rod and a big washer is all that is required).

You could get away with just 3 cutters to start off with, 3mm, 6mm and 10mm (or approx imperial equiv. 1/8", 1/4" & 3/8"). Don't play around with any smaller or much larger for the moment, get used to what your machine can handle first. Once you go above or below this range of sizes, the costs of cutters usually start to rise dramatically.

It might take you a little longer to machine out say large slots, but you are not paying for your time.

If you can, get the disposable ranges, they usually have three flutes and can be used in both end mill and slot drill configurations. Later, when you have a little more experience, you can invest in the specialist end or slot drill ranges.

Doing it this way will keep your pocket contents a little more user friendly. You will definitely be breaking or dulling cutters while you are learning to mill, and by buying the cheaper ranges, you won't feel as bad as if you break say a solid tungsten one, costing a quarter of a weeks wages.

You could go down the cheaper route for holding your cutters for the time being. Buy a few cheapo blank MT3 arbors, and carefully bore them to fit your milling cutters. Then put a grub screw in the side to hold the cutter in there. Grind a small flat on the side of the cutter (it might already have one on there) for the grub screw to hold against and stop the cutter moving.

John

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Re: vertical slide
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2009, 04:16:12 AM »
Thanks John,  I got that slide off in 90 seconds flat so now I know what I need to finish that job,  I would also like to hide my DRO cables under there so I have been wanting to look under there for some time!  I cleaned out a lot of old dragon fat too,  hey, it might be a Chinese lathe but it sure looks neat enough under there!

Back to the subject of collets and mill cutters,  I am looking at these two items, http://www.trademe.co.nz/Business-farming-industry/Industrial/Manufacturing-metalwork/Drills-accessories/auction-226754021.htm  and  http://www.trademe.co.nz/Business-farming-industry/Industrial/Manufacturing-metalwork/Drills-accessories/auction-226416027.htm  dont worry about the price as the NZ dollar is not really worth much!
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bogstandard

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Re: vertical slide
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2009, 05:26:32 AM »
John,

With reference to the collet system you have shown, I too used to have almost the same thing.

One major problem with it. It will only hold metric sized cutters of the size marked on the collet. No leeway at all to hold other sizes. To hold imperial, you would have to buy the matching imperial collets, not an easy thing to find at this time with ER systems taking over.

The advantage of the ER system is that it has a 1mm gripping range in each collet, so a 7mm collet can hold between 6.01mm to 7mm, so it is easy to accomodate imperial collets when you eventually find a big cheapy stash of them at an auction or elsewhere.

The cutters don't seem too bad, but look a little pricey. I don't usually buy sets of cutters, just however many I want of one size. You would most probably find, you wouldn't use half of the obscure sizes amongst them, and if you break the 3mm one making a 3mm slot, what are you going to do?

I would honestly consider getting them imported say from Arc Euro if you can't get them at a decent price at home. Drop them an email and find out how much the shipping would cost.

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Cutting-Tools/Milling-Cutters/End-Mills

Here is a bit if reading fodder to get your head around, to explain what I mean about ER collets.

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/ER-Collets-Collet-Chucks

John

Online John Hill

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Re: vertical slide
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2009, 06:17:56 AM »
Thats the sort of advice and information I am looking for John,  I had wondered at the range for each collet,  so ER is what I want especially if as you say ER is taking over!

I had not considered buying from the UK as, and this instance is a remarkable exception, UK princes are usually quite high compared to NZ. US prices are usually cheaper but US vendors appear to be afraid of any postal service and will only send by courier or equivalent with puts small items out of contention.

Bed time now,  work tomorrow but with a bit of luck I will be able to study those links you gave.

Cheers

The Artful Bodger

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Online John Hill

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Re: vertical slide
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2009, 06:35:11 PM »
John Bogs

This locally available collet set

claims to be an ER collet chuck, are you thinking it is not? Or maybe you think the collets are not ER collets?  On reviewing the price this one with seven collets is 68 quid while the Arc Euro Trade MT3 ER25 set with six collets , #050-110-25510 is 63.50 quid, cheaper but unlikely to cover postage, maybe not even cover a pint for us at The Rovers!

Sorry if all the questions are an annoyance but I have literally sheds full of stuff I have bought over the years in search of what I really wanted :doh:

John
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bogstandard

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Re: vertical slide
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2009, 07:47:43 PM »
John,

That IS NOT an ER collet set. ER has a lot more slots around them, allowing them to collapse and thus have a large holding range. Even the holder and nut is wrong.

ArcEuro do a few in this range you are showing, in their get rid of stock. Look at the Non Standard Chinese Collets on here.

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Clearance-Items

Then look at a real ER collet, and notice the difference

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/ER-Collets-Collet-Chucks

Just going a bit off topic here.

It looks like your supplier can't tell the difference between his a**e and elbow. Or he is trying to pull a fast one, getting rid of unshiftable stock by misrepresenting what it really is. The easy way to find out is to send him the two links I have put on this post and ask him the question, or even better, send him a link to this post, and see how much his anal sphincter twitches. Then you will know straight away if he is an engineering supplier or just a box shifter.
 
I personally take no prisoners when dealing with people like that. It is up to them to show you correct and true information, so that you don't waste your money on something that will not do the job you want it to do.
Over the last twelve months, by being brutal, it has saved me well over 2000 squid in discounts on machinery, and given me a few very nice sweeteners as well, in the form of free machine tooling and accessories.
But you must make sure your facts are correct, otherwise you will end up with a very red face.

Just to push you towards ER a little more, they can also be used to hold normal shank twist drills as well. They just collapse down to a good fit.

Ebay suppliers from China usually have a very good price break for full ER collet sets, and maybe that is the way for you to proceed to get them a little cheaper. Just factor in about 20% for your import duty on the cost of the item (not the postage) and you should be able to see what is the best price. I also allow about 14 days for delivery from China, but it is usually a lot less.

John

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Re: vertical slide
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2009, 07:59:41 PM »
Right John, I will send him a query,  yes I think you have convinced me that ER is the way to go as I certainly want a reasonable range of sizes covered for cutters, drills, whatevers, without gaps.

The local supplier might be trying to box clever with words as he states the chuck is ER and conveniently does not mention the collets........ :coffee:

BTW, such items privately imported into NZ should in theory attract 12.5% GST (i.e. VAT) but if the order is less than about 300 of your squids they do not collect the tax.  It is usually the cost of insured postage that kills small imports for folks like me.
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