Moving from Windows 7 to windows 10 - testing 1-2-3

[sorveltaja]

Finally I got myself to test, what Win 10 is about. I'd still prefer to use Win 7, but there's no way around, that its hardware support is fading away.

It has become as a habit for me to strip out as much excess stuff that I can, when doing clean win 7 install. It has been quite an easy thing to do just by disabling certain services and uninstalling needless stuff.
 
But no, with win 10 it doesn't seem to be that simple. "Full" 10 install is just horrible. No wonder that there are so many videos on youtube, and all kinds of scripts to "debloat" it.

After watching some videos of how the Windows iso-image can be modified, I opted for WinToolkit and MSMG toolkit, as they both are free.

First one, wintoolkit does its job, but for me it appears to be for advanced users (who actually know what they are doing), as there are so many options to choose from. 
Msmg toolkit, however allows one to choose components to be removed more in a 'bulk' way.

But which version of Win 10? So far I've tested 1903, 2004 and latest, 22H2.

For now, I'll stick to 1903, as for some reason, with other two versions, even after modifying the iso images - with same options - there are still stuff like microsoft store hanging around.
I guess the newer the windows version, harder it is to remove all that crap, at least when using msmg toolkit.

I'll probably install win 10 with current os at some point, but for testing purposes, I ordered separate ssd drive.

In the meantime, the setup I'm using is Oracle VM (also free software) on win 7, as msmg toolkit itself doesn't run on win 7.

So far, as a result, start menu (although I don't like it much) is a lot cleaner, right after finishing the installing:
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[Spurry]

Very interesting, another Win7 diehard. I still have that mountain to climb. My biggest worry is how my old programs would like a new OS like Win10.
Pete

[awemawson]

I only have Win10 where I have to - workshop PC and my accounts PC still Win7 for the simple reason programs I need to run won't run on 10

[hanermo]

I went to win10 because my free win7/8 licenses would not run on the new laptop - no network adapter support before having a network.

And the new laptop was both necessary and extremely expensive with nvidia hw graphics.

With some tweaks I got more/less std old windows interfaces to run.
And the win10 spams are minimal .. apart from extremely bothersome endless upgrades if I don´t use it for a few weeks.

Once I get the time (hah), I´ll tweak the win10 system to not peek or upgrade or spam system upgrades and or program upgrades so much.
This is difficult, laborious, and causes endless cascade errors, where a new sw kit needs access to a, needing library b, needing update c.

This is on purpose, from microsoft, forcing users to endlessly update their system - while reporting all installed sw to ms.

I greatly dislike the new win8 / win10 system, and more the endless upgrade/spyware cycle.
But since I need the new hw, there are few alternatives.

[philf]

Recently my workshop laptop (running Windows 7 Pro 32 bit) failed to boot one day. No problem - I'll restore it to how it was. Only to find my backup on a portable USB was corrupt.

I asked around for some Win 7 install disks (as a download is no longer available from Microsoft) - no-one had any. I then emailed a friend who gave me .iso files for Win 7 Pro in 32 & 64 bit versions on a USB stick.

I first tried the 64 bit but, try as I might, couldn't get a wireless connection. I reformatted the drive and installed the 32 bit version. I had the same problem - no wireless.

I thought that the free upgrade from Win 7 to Win 10 had ended some time ago but my friend thought I'd still be able to do it. So I downloaded Win 10 to a bootable USB stick and fitted an SSD that I had bought for my CNC PC. One of the first things it asked for was a registration key so I entered my valid Win 7 key - not accepted - bugger. I continued installing without a key and, to my surprise, I ended up with an activated copy of Win 10. Strangely the key is the same as my other Win 10 laptop and my desktop!

The best thing was everything worked just like it should without having to search for obscure drivers. And the boot speed and shutdown speed is much improved.

My Mach3 CNC PC still runs XP and I have several independently stored backups and many sets of install cds. The SSD I fitted to my laptop was originally destined for this machine but getting an SSD to work as the primary drive on XP is very difficult. (Not impossible but beyond me.)

I hope Microsoft continue to support Win 10 for a very long time because all my devices fail the Win 11 minimum requirement test.

[awemawson]

My original genuine bought by me Win 7 source disks cannot generate a clean load Win7 machine as the Microsoft registration system has been knocked on the head. They come up with the message that the software is not genuine (it is) or it needs activation.

I was given a copy of Microsoft Toolkit which allows me to activate almost anything Microsoft ! Microsoft Security Essentials sees it as a virus, so needs suspending until activation is complete, but then can be restarted.

Every 12 months or so I have to re-activate - in deed I did it on my workshop PC only the other day.

[sorveltaja]

Very interesting, another Win7 diehard. I still have that mountain to climb. My biggest worry is how my old programs would like a new OS like Win10.
Pete

How old programs do you use?

I tried paint shop pro 8.1 (about from year 2003) and office 97(whose installer is so old that it didn't work even in win 7, but its programs like excel can still be used), and both seem to work just fine when running win 10 in VM. Haven't looked yet what the 'compatibility mode' is like. But it wasn't needed with those programs, though.

So yeah, I use such an old "abandonware" almost daily for image processing and spreadsheets. They are just perfect ones for simple tasks.

[sorveltaja]

And the win10 spams are minimal .. apart from extremely bothersome endless upgrades if I don´t use it for a few weeks.

Once I get the time (hah), I´ll tweak the win10 system to not peek or upgrade or spam system upgrades and or program upgrades so much.
This is difficult, laborious, and causes endless cascade errors, where a new sw kit needs access to a, needing library b, needing update c.

It isn't necessarily that difficult to disable windows updates. For a home user/tinker, it's probably ok to test it and see what relief it is what happens.

[sorveltaja]

Recently my workshop laptop (running Windows 7 Pro 32 bit) failed to boot one day. No problem - I'll restore it to how it was. Only to find my backup on a portable USB was corrupt.

I asked around for some Win 7 install disks (as a download is no longer available from Microsoft) - no-one had any. I then emailed a friend who gave me .iso files for Win 7 Pro in 32 & 64 bit versions on a USB stick.

I first tried the 64 bit but, try as I might, couldn't get a wireless connection. I reformatted the drive and installed the 32 bit version. I had the same problem - no wireless.

The win 7 versions you tried, did they have service pack 1 integrated in them? Just a thought. If win 7 worked before, and not anymore - it's like something is missing. 
But anyways, glad to hear that you got it sorted out .

[philf]

The win 7 versions you tried, did they have service pack 1 integrated in them? Just a thought. If win 7 worked before, and not anymore - it's like something is missing. 
But anyways, glad to hear that you got it sorted out .

Sorveltaja,

I don't know if they included service packs. The guy who gave them to me is an IT professional so guess he would have had access to the latest versions.

[Edit: I since Googled the files I was given & "Windows 7, Professional version, with service pack 1, 64 bit, new install, English language".]

When I'd finished the installation and tried to install drivers which I'd downloaded on my other laptop I got an error message about a missing DLL file which I had to patch. I then managed to get broadband access via a cable direct from my router but after messing about for hours gave up on the wireless. If I hadn't have had alternative access to the web I wouldn't even have got that far.

Cheers.

Phil.

[sorveltaja]

Sorveltaja,

I don't know if they included service packs. The guy who gave them to me is an IT professional so guess he would have had access to the latest versions.

[Edit: I since Googled the files I was given & "Windows 7, Professional version, with service pack 1, 64 bit, new install, English language".]

When I'd finished the installation and tried to install drivers which I'd downloaded on my other laptop I got an error message about a missing DLL file which I had to patch. I then managed to get broadband access via a cable direct from my router but after messing about for hours gave up on the wireless. If I hadn't have had alternative access to the web I wouldn't even have got that far.

Cheers.

Phil.

There is actually service pack 2 still available for win 7 from microsoft site, but there it says: "Remember, since Microsoft isn't calling this update a service pack, the version number listed in System Properties will remain Windows 7 SP1." I guess it's just several patches in one packet. MS has sometimes tendency of being rather confusing of how they tell about things. 

Anyway, out of curiosity I took a look, what the *newest and meanest* win 11 22H2 is about. They rearranged a lot of gui related stuff, so maybe it is, after all, a better os with new features.

To get back to win 10, I've made a list of services, that are related to microsoft store, microsoft passport, and other features, that I have never used, and never will.
Disabling such stuff (and a lot more) is just the way I like to get the windows to "bare bones". There is always risk of breaking something, but so far, with such modifications, there hasn't been problems when running win 10 in VM.

All that may change when using real hardware, or not. But we'll see.

[sorveltaja]

My original genuine bought by me Win 7 source disks cannot generate a clean load Win7 machine as the Microsoft registration system has been knocked on the head. They come up with the message that the software is not genuine (it is) or it needs activation.

I was given a copy of Microsoft Toolkit which allows me to activate almost anything Microsoft ! Microsoft Security Essentials sees it as a virus, so needs suspending until activation is complete, but then can be restarted.

Every 12 months or so I have to re-activate - in deed I did it on my workshop PC only the other day.

If (or when) microsoft "retires" their products, and related services, what one can do? If such products are declared to be abandonware, do they even care anymore what the users do with them?
Maybe they do, but who cares? I would have done the same as you did.

After all, windows - as it used to be, is still a very powerful tool. 

[sorveltaja]

I attached a new drive to my pc and installed W10 to it (it refused to install to drive where W7 is), and there was no dual boot menu. It booted straight to W10.

I looked on the net, if it's possible to add such afterwards.

One way to do it: https://www.tenforums.com/installation-upgrade/81399-how-add-dual-boot-windows-10-a.html

There it says:

"Let's say your Windows 7 partition shows up as F: drive in file explorer and your Windows XP shows up at G: drive. You would run the following commands:

bcdboot F:\Windows /addlast /d
bcdboot G:\Windows /addlast /d
exit"

I did that in W10, but after reboot, still no dual boot menu. Then I went to Bios settings and changed boot option from 'Legacy + UEFI' to UEFI, and voila, dual boot menu appeared after the next reboot.

But when W7 started, it wasn't genuine anymore though... Bugger! That has never happened before, at least for me. But I got that sorted out by fiddling with that boot related stuff.
Can't remember what I did or how I managed to do it... I really should have written every step down.

I think I'll do another W10 install, once I get the current one backed up, as it has already plenty of customized settings in it (personal preference, drivers and such), to see if mentioned issues could be repeated.

There were none of those issues, when I installed W10 to ten years old laptop that has W7 in it. Dual boot menu appeared after reboot as it should.

So it has most likely to do with newer kinds of Bioses that have UEFI. On older Bioses (like those with Dos-like interface) that my laptop has, there doesn't seem to be any UEFI related stuff or settings. Maybe it's just pure 'legacy' mode and nothing else.

[pycoed]

I know that Virtualbox is also available for Windows, though I've never used it. Why not install that in your W10 partition then install W7 in Virtualbox? You can continue to boot into W10 as usual & run W7 from there quite seamlessly.

[Muzzerboy]

Perhaps you should consider Ghost Spectre W10 or W11 Superlight. This is so stripped back there isn't even a browser, firewall or anything much beyond the core installation and drivers.
https://tech-latest.com/ghost-spectre-windows-10-superlite-version/

There's a slightly less basic version (non-Superlight) that is perhaps a bit more usable but still very light. More info here:
https://www.facebook.com/GHOSTMODS/

[sorveltaja]

I know that Virtualbox is also available for Windows, though I've never used it. Why not install that in your W10 partition then install W7 in Virtualbox? You can continue to boot into W10 as usual & run W7 from there quite seamlessly.

Yeah, that's one way to use W7, but I'm not sure if free versions of virtual machines offer possibility to use hardware drivers. For example Oracle VM seems to have a limit of 128Mb Ram for video card. For simple tasks, that may well be enough.

[sorveltaja]

Perhaps you should consider Ghost Spectre W10 or W11 Superlight. This is so stripped back there isn't even a browser, firewall or anything much beyond the core installation and drivers.
https://tech-latest.com/ghost-spectre-windows-10-superlite-version/

There's a slightly less basic version (non-Superlight) that is perhaps a bit more usable but still very light. More info here:
https://www.facebook.com/GHOSTMODS/

I tried 2009.superlite+compact ghost spectre, and it seems to work just fine, but it has some telemetry and xbox related services or components, which I tried to remove using msmg toolkit, but it gave errors when reading install.wim file.

Although the idea of such modified, thin isos is no doubt welcome, one can never be sure, what exactly is done to modify the iso image.

That's why I prefer to stick to official W10 iso, and mod it myself following instructions by guys like Chris Titus, who also gives some general info, of how removing certain components may affect other windows functions.

[sorveltaja]

There's odd thing, that I noticed after installing W10 to my pc, after several hours of  fiddling with settings, my eyes began to feel like they were bleeding.

I have a monitor with max resolution 2560x1440. With W7, I've used 125% scaling, so text and other stuff are easier to see, and it has worked very well and display is 'crisp'.
But with W10, when using same resolution, same 125% scaling, there is certain 'blurriness' in some programs. And I'm not the only one, who has noted that. There are plenty of pages on the net, of how to "fix" that.

However, there is a simple a solution:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/make-older-apps-or-programs-compatible-with-windows-783d6dd7-b439-bdb0-0490-54eea0f45938

There it says:
- - - -
 Change the application's high-DPI scaling mode

In the High DPI scaling override area, select Override high DPI scaling behavior, and then try one of the following options:

    Application – Disable all Windows scaling settings and only use the app developer's setting. This option was called Disable display scaling on high DPI settings in previous versions of Windows.

    System – Overrides the program’s DPI settings and makes it run like it would on a low-DPI display. On a high-DPI display, this will make the program appear blurry.

    System (Enhanced) – Windows will try to use enhanced DPI scaling for this program. As a result, some programs will display with crisp text on high-DPI displays. This won't work for all programs.
- - - -

So, by going to programs compatibility settings --> Change high DPI settings, and selecting  'Override high DPI scaling behavior' with 'Application' option seems to do the trick.

Comparison:

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I guess this has to be done separately to each program that has this issue.

[sorveltaja]

I've been looking for a ways to block certain network traffic, that W10 uses to send out information of what the user does, obviously without users consent.

As windows firewall is far too cryptic for me to figure out, I've tried other things like Tinywall and Simplewall, which may not be firewalls per se, but rather ways to interact with windows firewall.

So far, I'm not quite sure if they are able to totally block that kind of traffic. Or maybe I just haven't yet fully grasped how they work.

Just an example: In W10, when clicking the network icon on the taskbar, and opening network settings, SystemSettings.exe sends every time query to www.bing.com, trafficmanager.net, edgekey.net and so on.

That can be seen by using Wireshark, or simpler one, DNSLookupView.

I know this is nitpicking, but I just don't like that kind of hidden activity at all. Some say that microsoft uses such data to improve window's features. Really? They don't have enough hired brains to do that?

Anyways, there are at least some tools to try out, that I've found so far: Powershell based program from Chris Titus website, and Blackbird.

I've tried CT's program to strip some bloat (using its 'desktop' -option), and yes, it seems to lower the number of services. But then again, the video, where he explains how to use it, is mostly about gaming performance.

Another one, Blackbird shows (perhaps at least some) elements that are used for telemetry/spying. Disabling all of them actually breaks some of the windows features.

W10 version 1903 has things like:

InputApp
CloudExperienceHost
StartMenuExperienceHost
ShellExperienceHost

All of them are located in Windows/SystemApps -folder. "Experience" this and that, as long as you give us your data.

End of the rant.

[sorveltaja]

It seems that W10 requires quite a lot of tweaks and tricks to minimize telemetry and all that unnecessary crap.

If that wasn't enough, from what I've read, windows updates may(and probably do) nullify plenty of such tweaks, and therefore they need to be re-applied after each feature update.

But spyware telemetry is obviously one of the things, that microsoft is pushing really hard to windows users, to get "diagnostic data". It's like from the movie 'The Little Shop of Horrors', where carnivore plant cries: "feed me!"

Fortunately there are guys, who have observed such things, and offer possible workarounds, in reasonably understandable language/terms. Still most stuff in page like that just makes my head spin: 

https://medium.com/@securitystreak/the-2017-pentester-guide-to-windows-10-privacy-security-cf734c510b8d

In its 'Security & privacy tools' portion, there is a suggested list of tools to use.

So far I've tried following ones in that order:

- Debloat and tweak your base system with /r/tronscript.

- Saved WindowsSpyBlocker hosts as HOSTS.TXT in Blackbird folder and applied it.

- 'Windows 10 Privacy' tweaks

- Destroy Windows 10 Spying (DWS)

- Windows Privacy Dashboard

Some of the things that possibly break after doing that:

Functions which normally use systemsettings.exe to work (like some control panel items,  personalization function which is used to select themes).   

So is it worth all the hassle? Maybe, maybe not.

That excess telemetry traffic has disappeared or decreased dramatically, though. Or so it seems at this moment.

[sorveltaja]

One thing that I like about W7, is that it has a lot more options to tweak themes and colors, than W10 does. I have always used greyish 'Classic' theme, as it's easier to my eyes.
Besides, I just love that stone age Windows NT look. No bells or whistles.

In W10, options that are available just suck. About the only way to adjust at least some colors - without third party software - seems to be to edit rgb values in either high-contrast white, or -dark  .theme file. In other theme files such entries don't seem to exist.

Downside of using high contrast theme is, that it forces programs like Waterfox (that I use as it allows legacy add-ons like Blank Your Monitor) to show pages in screaming white and black.

There are other options like this: https://github.com/malvinas2/ClassicThemeForWindows10

Meh, I tried that, but it has way too much other stuff involved than just colors. And there is always possibility to break something in W10, when such tools are used.

To me it looks like a waste of time, if(and when) it needs to be broken and "cleaned" to be usable and free from that telemetry stuff.

So, for home users, what improvements W10 has over W7? Any thoughts are welcome.

[bob h.]

Reading this thread makes me happy I switched 100% to Linux in 2008!

Bob

[AdeV]

Like Bob - I switched to Linux on my daily driver some years ago (not sure I was brave enough to do it in 2008... but certainly by 2015); except being a VB/C# programmer, I did need to keep a Windows machine around. Nowadays the only use I have for Windows is CAD - and I believe there's a pretty good web based CAD available now which might finally mean I can toss all of those Windows VMs out of the window for once and for all...

sorveltaja - in my humble opinion, you should try to keep Windows 7 working for as long as possible... I can't see any benefit to upgrading to Windows 10 - unless you literally need a piece of software that absolutely won't work in Windows 7.  Windows 10 (and 11, I believe, although I haven't experienced that one, fortunately) are chock full of unnecessary crap, they call home all the time, and who wants to boot their computer up only to be confronted with 1/2 hour wait while Windows does "stuff" to itself?

If you've got enough CPU & memory for it... run Windows X in a VM (Oracle Virtualbox is my current weapon of choice, although I've happily used VMWare Player before as well).  I have a VM running Windows 7 with Solidworks, and as long as I give it 4 CPU cores and 16GB of RAM, it seems to go at least as fast as I can drive it... maybe a pro would notice some lag?. I also have a Windows 10 VM (my old Solidworks setup, before I got fed up with Win10 & downgraded); I accidentally fired it up yesterday & wow! 20 minutes of "updating" at start-up; then when I went to shut it down, it wanted another goodness knows how long to update itself again. I broke the rules: I turned it off  And then deleted it...

BTW, in an earlier message, you noted that "For example Oracle VM seems to have a limit of 128Mb Ram for video card. For simple tasks, that may well be enough."  - If you enable 3D Acceleration, then 128Mb becomes the minimum(!) and it'll go out to 512Mb (IIRC - I'll check in a few minutes, when my correct VM has copied to my new computer).

As I said - I use Solidworks in a Virtualbox VM. I actually haven't tried it on the machine I just bought & am setting up now; but on my laptop (which, admittedly, has a 12th Gen 12-core i7 CPU in it and 32GB RAM) it honestly works brilliantly.  My new PC is a 7th gen i7 (7770), also 32GB & 1TB SSD - a 5 year old refurbished Dell Optiplex 7050, for slightly less than £400. So far, it's great, but the Grand Solidworks Test will start in about 20 mins, when it's finished copying the VM from the laptop

[sorveltaja]

W10 is indeed famous... of being infamous. I've read about users who wonder why their laptops/PC's struggle, when there are almost 200 processes running. It's like decoy; "click this, and you get some really jolly good things installed. But we don't tell you how much all that crap taxes your computer".

Rather economical and ecological way to do things, eh? I just can't see anything changing for better, be it W11, W12, or whatever.

Meh, I just had to rant again. Sorry about that.

But to get to the point, yeah, I pretty much keep using W7 as long as possible.

Brave browser is about the only software I use, that nags about needing to update to W10 before next browser update. So far, for some reason Brave hasn't forced to update itself.
I use it only to watch Youtube videos, as it blocks all bloody annoying ads. In other words - Youtube like it used to be.

[awemawson]

I still use Win7 on my main desktop and my workshop PC as I have programs I need that Win10 can’t cope with .
However I also still use Internet Explorer in Win 7 as my default browser as my IP camera network will only run on I E.
This is beginning to cause problems with web sites that can’t handle I E. I got stuck in a black hole the other day having successfully selected an item, put it in my basket, but the site couldn’t progress to payment. I ended up having to log on from a different computer using Firefox to complete the transaction