Author Topic: Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes  (Read 12632 times)

Offline Ross

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
  • Country: gb
    • Ross' steam engines
Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes
« on: September 05, 2015, 10:45:36 AM »
Hello Fellow Modders,

It's been a while hope you are all ok,

I've recently refurbished my trusty mini-lathe, I've replaced the headstock gears and installed taper bearings complete with a repaint. All was going swimmingly until it came to the electrics. Upon disassembly I marked all the cables that connected to the main board so they went back in the correct places. Re-assembled the front panel went to power on and all ran as it should, after 5mins of constant running it went pop! speed controller dead, no fuse blown plug ok but tripped the electrics.

So I replaced it with a spare board ("Repaired") But when the lathe was powered up it runs but the speed control switch only varies the rpm by around 50rpm's so I assumed that is board was broken in some way as it had been previously been repaired after blowing.

I decided to shell out and buy a fresh board from Amadeal, plugged her in and exactly the same is happening, RPM's barely vary and the lathe runs own its own you can only stop it with the E stop!

I'm at my witts end! is there something I should be adjusting? surely the boards should be set from factory?

I have attached pictures and a video of the problem any pointers would be great.


Ross


[/URL]

Offline John Rudd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2526
  • Country: gb
Re: Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2015, 12:10:00 PM »
Hi Ross,
Im fairly conversant with the RB speed controller, so theres a fair chance the problem can be sorted....

Firstly, have you got a multimeter? That would be a real boon in diagnosing.

Secondly, disconnect the motor from the A and A+ connections on the board. Then take a 100 watt light bulb( mounted in a holder with some flex attached to it). Now connect the ligh to the A and A+ connections...Adjust the speed pot from 0 to 100.... Does the light bulb go from dim to near full brightness? Smoothly?
If it does then the motor is suspect.
If the lamp behaves as the motor, then either the wiring is incorrect or the board is needing adjustment or is faulty...
Report back your findings and we will proceed further...Dont forget the dvm question plz.
eccentric millionaire financed by 'er indoors
Location:  Backworth Newcastle

Skype: chippiejnr

Offline philf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1117
  • Country: gb
Re: Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2015, 12:11:30 PM »
Ross,

I know nothing about mini-lathe electronics but are you absolutely sure that the speed control pot is connected properly?

Phil.
Phil Fern
Location: Marple, Cheshire

Offline Ross

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
  • Country: gb
    • Ross' steam engines
Re: Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2015, 12:39:16 PM »
Hi Ross,
Im fairly conversant with the RB speed controller, so theres a fair chance the problem can be sorted....

Firstly, have you got a multimeter? That would be a real boon in diagnosing.

Secondly, disconnect the motor from the A and A+ connections on the board. Then take a 100 watt light bulb( mounted in a holder with some flex attached to it). Now connect the ligh to the A and A+ connections...Adjust the speed pot from 0 to 100.... Does the light bulb go from dim to near full brightness? Smoothly?
If it does then the motor is suspect.
If the lamp behaves as the motor, then either the wiring is incorrect or the board is needing adjustment or is faulty...
Report back your findings and we will proceed further...Dont forget the dvm question plz.

I have a multimeter,

I tried a test light on it of unknown wattage but it blew the bulb when I powered on, so I set the meter to DC 200

Pot in the 0 position reads 30
Pot in max position reads 45

am I right in thinking it should read 0?

Offline John Rudd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2526
  • Country: gb
Re: Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2015, 04:58:54 PM »
Ok,
The speed control connections,
Looking at the pot from the front(the spindle knob end...), the left tag goes to P1, the right tag goes to P3 and the centre tag goes to P2.

The motor leads go to A+ and A-, with mains input onto L1 and L2.

If you disconnect the motor from the two A connections, disconnect the speed pot from P1,2&3. Now connect P2 to P1with a short bit of wire, measure the voltage with your meter connected to the two A tags...What is the reading?
Disconnect the bit of wire, connect it to P2 and P3, what does the meter read across the two A tags?

Ensure you switch off at the mains when you make any changes!!
eccentric millionaire financed by 'er indoors
Location:  Backworth Newcastle

Skype: chippiejnr

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2015, 05:49:17 PM »
Hi Ross.

So sorry, I was no help to you. Boxes of wires, and pretty coloured blobs are baffling to me......  :scratch:

Posting here is the right thing to do. These lads got me up and running again.  :thumbup:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline hopefuldave

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 189
  • Country: gb
Re: Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2015, 08:55:41 PM »
Hi Ross,

If that's as I suspect a Chinese cheap clone of the KB controller board, there will be a row of small preset potentiometers at the top of the board ( top as shown in the pic), there will be three together marked Min, Max and Acc, these unsurprisingly set the minimum, maximum and acceleration speeds.
If the control pot is correctly connected (see earlier in the thread) try tweaking the minimum preset first, it should be possible to stop the motor, then try the maximum preset.

The control potentiometer should have 10V DC across it, the wiper should be variable from 0 - 10V, if this isn't the case check at the P1 andP3 pins for 10V DC to determine whether it's the wiring / connectors between the PCB and the control.

A VERY IMPORTANT WARNING: The control's pins on the PCB are NOT isolated and can be at a dangerous voltage, BE CAREFUL, insulated probes and multimeter plugs are essential. If any of the control leads short to earth IT WILL DESTROY THE PCB so ensure you use a plastic-shaft pot and insulate it well, heatshrink or rubber sleeving over the pot terminals. This is true of both the clones and the genuine KB boards.

Also on the PCB are presets for motor current limit and IR compensation, if you adjust these you need to a) know what you're doing and b) measure the motor current, incorrect IR comp will cause "cogging" at low speeds, current limit set too low will reduce the motor voltage when the armature current rises beyond what it thinks is the correct max current through the motor...

I hope that helps rather than confuses!

Dave H. (the other one)
Rules are for the obedience of fools, and the guidance of wise men.

Offline velocette

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 152
  • Country: nz
Re: Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2015, 01:13:53 AM »
Hi All
This topic keeps on cropping up on MM Can I add a pointer for anyone who wants to learn more on the workings and setting up DC Controllers is to go to this site and download a manual or three.
Sure it not specific to Asian controllers but has been a great source of info that I have found helped my understanding of these controllers.

http://www.kbelectronics.com/Variable_Speed_DC_Drives.html 

Eric

Offline John Rudd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2526
  • Country: gb
Re: Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2015, 02:01:03 AM »
KB manual specific to this particular model here....


http://www.kbelectronics.com/manuals/kbic_manual.pdf

Page 7 deals with adjustments....
eccentric millionaire financed by 'er indoors
Location:  Backworth Newcastle

Skype: chippiejnr

Offline Ross

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
  • Country: gb
    • Ross' steam engines
Re: Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2015, 11:16:14 AM »
Ok,
The speed control connections,
Looking at the pot from the front(the spindle knob end...), the left tag goes to P1, the right tag goes to P3 and the centre tag goes to P2.

The motor leads go to A+ and A-, with mains input onto L1 and L2.

If you disconnect the motor from the two A connections, disconnect the speed pot from P1,2&3. Now connect P2 to P1with a short bit of wire, measure the voltage with your meter connected to the two A tags...What is the reading?
Disconnect the bit of wire, connect it to P2 and P3, what does the meter read across the two A tags?

Ensure you switch off at the mains when you make any changes!!

Ok So, I'm getting 0 volts for both of those tests? Seems strange?

Offline John Rudd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2526
  • Country: gb
Re: Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2015, 12:46:29 PM »
Ross,
What voltage do you read between points P1 and  p3? Post this value plz.....
Your dvm needs to be set to read DC volts.....
eccentric millionaire financed by 'er indoors
Location:  Backworth Newcastle

Skype: chippiejnr

Offline Ross

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
  • Country: gb
    • Ross' steam engines
Re: Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes
« Reply #11 on: September 08, 2015, 09:40:44 AM »
Ross,
What voltage do you read between points P1 and  p3? Post this value plz.....
Your dvm needs to be set to read DC volts.....

Points p1-3 on the board or pot? I ran the last test on the pot

Offline John Rudd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2526
  • Country: gb
Re: Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2015, 09:52:09 AM »
The connections on the board with the potentiometer disconnected.
Disconnect the motor too.....

Just a step back or two......the lamp that blew what voltage was it?
Perhaps I should have stated it needs to be a mains 240 bulb......, :doh:Hope it wasnt any old car bulb...
Btw, I notice youre in Lincoln.....do you live anywhere near the A15/Outer Circle Drive? Ill be visiting my son on Friday, I could come over and have a look with you....
eccentric millionaire financed by 'er indoors
Location:  Backworth Newcastle

Skype: chippiejnr

Offline Ross

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
  • Country: gb
    • Ross' steam engines
Re: Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2015, 10:18:10 AM »
Ok between P 1-3 is 19volts

The bulb was of unknown voltage! Obviously not enough! Just Tried a proper bulb and it gets ever so slightly brighter but does not go out even with the pot off. Surely it's got to be the potentiometer?

I am 15 miles south of Lincoln a bit off the beat and track!

Offline John Rudd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2526
  • Country: gb
Re: Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2015, 11:51:10 AM »
19 volts is too high....it should be a maximum of 12v.....
The low level control circuits are supplied by rectified mains, then there is a 22 v zener diode clamping the supply, then there is a 12 v zener diode further down stream fed by a 1.5 k resistor...This 12v supply is used to supply the juice for the speed control pot....

So, place your meter on volts dc across connection I2 (which is a ground ) and the cathode end of Z1...( the cathode end is denoted by a coloured band ) if you get the wrong end of the zener the meter will read zero...so try the other end.....you should read 12v...if its more then the zener diode is phut....

You can check the speed pot with your meter of the ohms range ( set to 20k ) connect one lead to the centre tag and the other lead to one of the outer tags,turn the spindle and watch the meter reading....should go from zero to either 5k or 10 k depending on the value of the pot, I forget it at the moment -:(


If all this gets too mich for you, you could send me the board, l'll test it and repair as required....
eccentric millionaire financed by 'er indoors
Location:  Backworth Newcastle

Skype: chippiejnr

Offline Ross

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
  • Country: gb
    • Ross' steam engines
Re: Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2015, 01:46:11 PM »
Sorry John I had the DVM set wrong it read 11.7 volts so nothing wrong there

Offline John Rudd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2526
  • Country: gb
Re: Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2015, 02:05:17 PM »
 :worthless:
Sorry John I had the DVM set wrong it read 11.7 volts so nothing wrong there

Ok, thats good...so now you need to test the pot as I described...
If that checks out ok, you need to recheck your wiring to/from the board...the  test with a 240 domestic light bulb connected in place of the motor...the bulb should vary in brightness as you rotate the speed pot....you could measure the voltage across the bulb too...,it should vary between 0 and around 170-180 volts DC.....
eccentric millionaire financed by 'er indoors
Location:  Backworth Newcastle

Skype: chippiejnr

Offline Ross

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
  • Country: gb
    • Ross' steam engines
Re: Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2015, 11:28:01 AM »


You can check the speed pot with your meter of the ohms range ( set to 20k ) connect one lead to the centre tag and the other lead to one of the outer tags,turn the spindle and watch the meter reading....should go from zero to either 5k or 10 k depending on the value of the pot, I forget it at the moment -:(




Measured the resistance of the Pot. One lead to centre has a reading and one lead has no reading whatsoever.

Offline John Rudd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2526
  • Country: gb
Re: Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2015, 01:10:13 PM »
Ok, worth changing the pot then.... :zap:

Is there anything special about this pot? Has it got a switch on the back? If it hasnt and the value is 4.7k let me have your address and Ill post you one .......
Or else you might be worth getting in touch with Amadeal...Speak to Hugh...very helpful..
Keep us posted...,
eccentric millionaire financed by 'er indoors
Location:  Backworth Newcastle

Skype: chippiejnr

Offline Ross

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
  • Country: gb
    • Ross' steam engines
Re: Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2015, 05:49:54 PM »
GOOD NEWS

Ordered a Pot from Amadeal, as per your suggestion John, Re tested once installed and got a reading on both points instead of just the one. Plugged in the lathe and she runs as sweet as a nut!

Thanks all for your help we are up and running again  :mmr:

The only thing is that LED readout for the spindle display is intermittent I think it must be the unit as I have replaced the sensor and board for it.

Offline Stilldrillin

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4972
  • Country: gb
  • Staveley, Derbyshire. England.
Re: Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2015, 06:03:31 PM »
RESULT!!

Well done, all......  :clap: :clap:

David D
David.

Still drilling holes... Sometimes, in the right place!

Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline DMIOM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 676
  • Country: gb
  • Isle of Man
Re: Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2015, 02:56:12 AM »
The MM community at its best  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:  :clap:      :ddb:   :ddb:   :ddb:     :mmr:

Offline Ross

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 130
  • Country: gb
    • Ross' steam engines
Re: Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2015, 05:34:00 PM »
Couldn't be happier cheers lads you are all stars!

Offline picclock

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
  • Country: gb
Re: Real Bull Mini-lathe Speed Controller Woes
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2015, 02:37:26 AM »
Hi Ross

Glad you resolved your pot problem. Speed reading intermittent could just be an adjustment of the opto sensor. I assume it has the sensor and light interrupter disc on the end of the spindle. The pcb and bracket are normally mounted on slots and can be adjusted radially. They should be set so that the bottom of the sensor gap just misses the edge of the interrupter. Stray light may also affect it if you are using it without a cover.

Best Regards

picclock
Engaged in the art of turning large pieces of useful material into ever smaller pieces of (s)crap. (Ferndown, Dorset)