vial for a machinist's level

[jcs0001]

I recently purchased two machinist levels at prices I could not ignore.  Don't really need them but they are really a classy tool!

One, of course the 8 in. is in excellent shape and in it's original box with clasp - it's a Moore & Wright.  The 12 in. model is a lufkin and the vial has a crack so the bubble is very long.  The other two small vials are good.  I have looked through ebay and online searches and the best that I can find is that the main vial for a 12 in. starrett is likely the same as the one for the lufkin.  However even finding a starrett vial seems to be difficult.

Considering my cost I'm quite sure I can get my money back selling the Lufkin as is without the main vial working.  However if I can find a vial for a reasonable price I'd give it a try to repair it.

Two questions:
- anyone know of a source for a vial.
- there was a posting on Madmodder a long time back about repairing a machinist's level (vial replacement) however it appears that the photos are missing.  It can be seen here:

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=2197.0

I'd appreciate a link to any other "tutorials" regarding vial replacement.

Thanks,

John.

[jcs0001]

I did find another forum posting about replacing a starrett vial:

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/21510-Starrett-Model-98-Level-Vial-Replacement-amp-Adjustment?s=30d60daa1e9533d801ebfb5be45ab9b5

John.

[Pete W.]

Hi there, John,

I suggest you have a look at http://www.leveldevelopments.com/.

There was some discussion of engineers' levels on the Model Engineering site a few months ago, try here:  http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=102987&p=5

I hope this helps. 

[jcs0001]

Pete:

Thanks for the information.  Just what I was looking for.  I think my first step is to remove the old vial (intact if possible) to get an idea of size.  I'll take some photos when I do this.  It may be a while as I've got a list a mile long of things to do.

John.

[jcs0001]

I decided to take the lufkin apart.  It's a Lufkin no. 58 machinist's level - 12 in. long.  The main vial is cracked and leaking and the collar rotates a little too easily.



Once the vial holder was off the body I held the flat on one end in a vice and turned the other end with a wrench - in case the end caps were threaded in.  Apparently the 12 in. starrett equivalents are press fit but I didn't want to wreck it in case it was threaded.  It turned however broke the vial glass (no loss) and the end cap didn't thread outwards.  I made the assumption from this that it also was press fit.  Being fully committed now I needed to come up with a simple puller.

A bit of thought and lunch and I came up with a jig to pull the end caps (one anyway) off.  Not very high tech but it did work without breaking anything and was very controlable.   I first turned down some 5/16 in. drill rod so that the holes in the caps just fit the rod.  Two pieces were made.  In the photo below the drill rod holders are not inside the screw clamps:



The drill rod fit like so:


It isn't fancy but did hold quite well inside the clamps once they were tightened up.

I used 3/8 in. threaded rod and gradually used the two nuts to push the blocks of wood away from each other.   The nuts are the ones on the left side of the second photo. It took a considerable amount of force before the plug started to move but was easy after that.  The drill rod bent a bit before the plug came out.

Once the one end plug was removed the outside barrel slipped off revealing two very fine wires in a groove at each end of the vial holder.  They are supposed to prevent the outside barrel from spinning easily - giving a little bit of friction to hold it in position.  Not sure if a little judicial bending will improve the friction or not.

John.

[PeterE]

jcs, here is the build thread on how I made my engineers level. Hope it is useful.

http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,10360.msg117207.html#msg117207

/Peter

[jcs0001]

PeterE:

Don't know how I missed that - nice job.  Did you ever modify it so that you could set and reset it easily? 

Thanks for the link to college engineering however I think the vial you used has too small a diameter.  The id of the tube of the lufkin is about 16.8 mm so I suspect I need one around 15 mm in diameter.  I've sent a message to this outfit to see if they have something suitable:

http://www.leveldevelopments.com/products/vials/ground-vials/   (Pointed out by PeterW).

Thanks,

John.

[PeterE]

John, if you mean that I can set it for angled measuring and then reset it to true horizontal, yes I can. The spacers below the fatening screws can be exchanged for washers of different thicknesses f ex nad then just put back the basic spacers to get back to horizontal level.

You are right that my vial is kind of thin, but I found one with good precision tolerances at a local store and as the vial is set in plaster of Paris it works well anyway. My tubes inner dia is smaller than yours. Found drawings in an old copy of MEW (Model Engineers Workshop) for the one provided by College Enginnering, and had a suitable piece of scrap to hack into so ....

Works a treat.

Hope you will get yours in good shape as well.

BR

/Peter

[jcs0001]

I just received a reply back from leveldevelopments regarding a vial for the level.  It must be a very nice vial as the cost to me including shipping would be more than it would cost to buy a good used 12 in. starrett level.   They replied quickly and efficiently so I give them full credit for that.  So that avenue is out.

Will look around for other sources - perhaps I can find one for a 12 in. starrett as it may be a bit more reasonable.  At least I'm in no rush!

John.

[Will_D]

The whole point of this thread is about the vial!

Following the above thread link lead me to:

"see: http://www.collegeengineering.co.uk/SpiritLevel.htm"

Now a spirit level vial iirc is "just" a bent piece of glass/plastic with flourosceine dyed wate, a bubble and some etched lines"

The more expensive the vial: Then its a much larger radiius with longer space between the grad.lines!

[PekkaNF]

....
Now a spirit level vial iirc is "just" a bent piece of glass/plastic with flourosceine dyed wate, a bubble and some etched lines"

The more expensive the vial: Then its a much larger radiius with longer space between the grad.lines!

I believe engineering levels have a straight tube that has a internal curvature ground/lapped---more controlled that way. I think I have seen somewhere short very old instruction how to barrel proper curvature on glass tube. Sort of lapping if I remember correctly.

Pekka

[jcs0001]

A quick update.  I soaked the tube with broken glass and plaster of paris for a day or two then took a brass rod and gently, holding the tube in one hand, punched out the remaining end cap and all the remaining glass and plaster.  The tube is now clean and ready to put back together if I locate a vial.  Will keep looking as I'm in no hurry and have lots of other things to do right now.

John

[jcs0001]

I am resurrecting this post as I now have further information about obtaining a vial.

It appears that the vial from the starrett 12 in. machinist level (98-12) will fit my lufkin level.  I searched ebay on and off and could not locate said vial.  However last night I found a part number for the vial.  It is starrett part number pt15024.  With that number in hand I was able to find a US supplier (I am in Canada) however they don't ship small volumes  when paying by credit card. 

I then found that Fastenal Industrial Supplies (we have an outlet in my city) carries Starrett tools in
Canada.  They informed me that they can order the vial and the cost will be in the area of $26 Can. plus "a small amount for shipping".  It is now ordered and I was told to expect it within about 2 weeks.

Note that Fastenal does not sell to individuals however they did not require a lot of details about my business and were happy to order under that name.

I will update this post with more detail once I get the vial and have a chance to install it. 

Thank you,

John.

[Pete.]

What was the sensitivity of the vial you bought John?

[jcs0001]

Pete

It is the standard vial for the starrett 12 in. level and starrett indicates 0.005 per foot for each graduation.  (.42 mm per meter).

I believe that I had the resolution for the lufkin at one point but cannot recall what it was right now.  I seem to recall it was a bit less that .005 per foot but am not sure.  This should be satisfactory as there aren't any other options that are cost effective for the vial.

John.

[Will_D]

Lets get to basics on this:

A bubble level consists of a tube with yellow liquid* in it, a bubble, and some lines for reference.

A straight , in-line tube will not work!

However, bend the tube to a slight radius the you have a bubble level!

The radius defines the accuracy.

So the most accurate and hardest to use would be a straight tube with a bubble! !

*Yellow is usually Fluorescein in water!

[Pete.]

Carpenter's levels might use bent vials but machinist's precision levels use ground vials.

This place does reasonable priced ground vials.

https://www.leveldevelopments.com/products/vials/ground-vials/

[Will_D]

"Ground" in what way?

[Pete.]

Ground internally to a slight barrel shape, to produce a level that is a measurement device rather than just a levelling tool.

[jcs0001]

Pete

I did get in touch with LevelDevelopments back when I was first trying to find a vial.  They were able to suggest one of theirs however with shipping the cost was not viable.  They appear to have a very good selection of vials and were very prompt to deal with.  If I had really needed the vial and had no other choice I would have been happy to deal with them.

I did pick up a large (about 24 in. square) piece of acid free white paper today at an artist supply shop.  It was the thinnest of the acid free paper they had and I hope it isn't too thick.  They had cotton based acid free paper but it was even thicker.  Will soon see when I get the vial.

John.

[Manxmodder]

Ground internally to a slight barrel shape, to produce a level that is a measurement device rather than just a levelling tool.

Pete, I have witnessed high quality acrylic vials going through the barrelling operation on a CNC machine followed by the fluid and bubble process before being sealed....OZ

[Pete.]

Pete, I have witnessed high quality acrylic vials going through the barrelling operation on a CNC machine followed by the fluid and bubble process before being sealed....OZ

Modern materials and modern techniques applied to an old process

actually I thought I would post this here just because I was impressed with it:

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/39202-Shop-Made-Tools?p=1076328#post1076328

[jcs0001]

Pete

That is an interesting way to make a level.  You really directed me to a "rathole" as I spent a lot of time last night going through that thread about home made tools.   

I went through it a long time ago but there is lots of new info on it now.

John.

[jcs0001]

I received the vial today - went down to Fastenal and picked it up.  True to their word it was about $26 plus about $2.50 for shipping plus the usual taxes - good service.

It was in a substantial box full of foam peanuts and was intact - nice.



The vial along with the small parts box:



I have quite a few projects and obligations on the go so it may be a little while before I get this done.  Will report as time permits.

John.

[Pete W.]

Hi there, John,

I'm pleased to see that you have moved your project forward at an affordable price.

When you come to mount your vial in the level tube you need to take precautions to protect the 'pip'.  It's best to keep it completely free of the plaster of Paris used to secure the vial in the level tube.  One way is to shield it with a piece of plastic tubing while you feed the PoP down the annular gap between the plastic tube and the level tube.  (With the tubes held in a vertical position and the vial temporarily held in position in the level tube with Sellotape or 3Ms 'Magic Tape'.)

Have a look at this web-page (you might need to scroll around a bit!)  :  http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=102987&p=5