Author Topic: Water jet/ laser cutting costs.  (Read 6313 times)

Offline S. Heslop

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Water jet/ laser cutting costs.
« on: March 16, 2015, 07:22:39 PM »
My brother is a welder by trade, specializing in tig, and he asked me a while ago if I could think up something we could make together and sell. So i've been doing exactly that.

I thought it might be a good idea to design some sort of niche woodworking tool (i've got a few ideas) that's constructed mostly from plate aluminium that he can weld together. I also thought that the best way to do this would be to pay a firm to water jet or laser cut the parts, that I can then tidy up and he can weld.

It's still early days but I think the first thing I need to find out is how much water jet/ laser cutting actually costs, and what the pros and cons of each are. My knowledge of waterjet cutting goes as far as knowing that it tends to leave a slight tapered surface. It'd also be handy to know what kinds of file formats they generally accept for the drawings.

I'm aware I could phone some places up, but I don't really have anything to show and i'd be wasting their time. I mostly just want to know what kind of rates I can expect so I can decide if this is a viable idea or not.

Offline David Jupp

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Re: Water jet/ laser cutting costs.
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2015, 03:34:56 AM »
Both processes will take similar/same input files - 2D DXF probably most common. 

Water jet can handle much thicker plate, it inputs very little heat so can leave a very neat edge and doesn't alter metal structure at the cut like laser can.  The more advanced machines with multi axis heads can cut weld preps on edges where required.

Laser is both more common and can operate faster - so may well be cheaper for thickness and materials that it can handle. 

For both methods, the price can be influenced by how well your parts nest into a full sheet of material.

I've seen links previously to on line quoting for at least laser cutting - might give a feel for pricing.

I'm sure other here will have more detail for you.

Offline sparky961

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Re: Water jet/ laser cutting costs.
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2015, 08:43:17 PM »
As I mentioned in a recent post, I worked at a laser cutting shop for over 5 years.  I handled quoting, designing, programming, running, fixing, and maintaining the lasers... ya, pretty much everything but not necessarily at the same time - well, ok there was that one day..... ;)  I worked closely with other shops that we outsourced jobs to, including lots of waterjet.

There are many common misconceptions about how lasers work and what they can do.  I probably won't do the topic justice in this short post but if you have some specific questions that I can answer, I'd be happy to do so.

If you're set on aluminum, and it's going to be more than 1/4" or so thick, your best bet is waterjet.  You should get a nice clean edge that almost looks sandblasted.  Likely a bit sharper on the bottom of the cut and a bit more rounded on top.  Taper depends on many factors, bot a good 5-axis machine and operator can all but eliminate it.  To get the price down a bit, they can run a faster travel speed with the tradeoff being a rougher edge.  If you can live with a very rough edge, aluminum can also be plasma cut - but if you're to that point you might as well rough it out on a bandsaw unless you're making hundreds of them.  Do consider more conventional, more manual options carefully until you're selling so many you can't keep up with the orders.

Lasers cut steel very similar to the way an oxy-acetylene torch does; they heat up a small spot to molten and with a constant stream of low pressure oxygen, burn it away out the back of the cut.  Get everything just right and you end up with a very nice edge (not quite to easy to maintain in practice...).  For aluminum, it's a bit different.  Nitrogen is used at a much higher pressure and it's used to blast the molten aluminum out the back of the cut.  Since aluminum is so good at conducting heat away from an area, it's very hard to keep the heat exactly where you need it.  You need much more laser power for a given thickness of material.

Where I worked, quantity was everything.  If you needed one or two of something, expect to pay for some setup time and a premium for material usage and other miscellaneous.  Remember that when you're getting pricing.  Maybe even ask them what they consider to be a "worthwhile" order.  I'm sure some places will cater more toward prototype stuff, while others will be into production.  Pricing will be more local, so my numbers won't mean much to you.  Not to mention like I said it's quite variable depending on what you actually want done.

David is "spot on", DXF is the most common file format I received.  3D formats have become very common too, with IGES, STEP, and SolidWorks files being used directly.  You're a lot less likely to get the wrong thickness part that way too.

I say get yourself a solid design first.  You'll probably end up paying way too much for prototypes, and will have to make changes to them before you ever get into quantity.  Along the way, you're going to learn a lot and will start getting a sense for what you need to charge for this item.

Oh, and do yourself and your brother a huge favour - make your design self-fixturing if at all possible.  Your imagination and ingenuity are the limit, as long as you're also within the physical limitations of the machines you have access to.

Offline dawesy

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Re: Water jet/ laser cutting costs.
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2015, 05:25:34 AM »
As a guide the place I use (lasershape in Nottingham) has a minimum order of £100+vat I had a manifold flange for an engine and 3 or 4 exhaust flanges cut from 10mm 316l SS and it still didn't exceed the minimum order. I did supply the dxf files and do the cad myself though.
Lee.
wishing my workshop was larger :(

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Water jet/ laser cutting costs.
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2015, 08:26:04 AM »
Thanks for the posts and detailed information!

I do plan to prototype something out first. Like I said, it's still early days and i'm probably jumping the gun asking this question now. As for self fixturing, one of the things i'm most worried about is welding distortions and i'm hopeful some stout fixtures will help reduce that.

Looks like I'll have to learn a real cad program (not sketchup) to export the dxf files.

Offline vtsteam

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Re: Water jet/ laser cutting costs.
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2015, 11:24:01 AM »
Simon if you use Sketchup 7 (free edition), Google briefly offered a free .DXF output file format add-on, that I use constantly. So Sketch-Up 7 can definitely output .dxf files.

Also, if you add in the free Sketch-U-Cam add-on, it can also output mill CNC G-code directly.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
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Offline redshift

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Re: Water jet/ laser cutting costs.
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2015, 04:36:39 PM »
Simon,
It's been a while since I posted on here, guess why.  I have been working at a Laser cutting shop. Will start a separate post to show you what I have been up to, it's a lot more MadModder than you would think.
If I can help you with anything to do with the parts you need, prototypes included just let me know. (this is not an advert touting for work but a genuine offer)
Regards
Dave

Offline S. Heslop

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Re: Water jet/ laser cutting costs.
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2015, 06:30:56 PM »
Simon,
It's been a while since I posted on here, guess why.  I have been working at a Laser cutting shop. Will start a separate post to show you what I have been up to, it's a lot more MadModder than you would think.
If I can help you with anything to do with the parts you need, prototypes included just let me know. (this is not an advert touting for work but a genuine offer)
Regards
Dave

I'd definitely be interested to see that. And thanks for the offer but it'll probably be a while till I need anything cut.

I spent a surprising amount of time today looking at routers online. The fixed base variety are pretty hard to find in the UK (except the fancy expensive high end ones) but for full sized routers (3.5" diameter body) I found the Draper Expert for sale at a few places, for only £140. It's still expensive for a router in my opinion, but it's the cheapest i've seen so far.

There's also the Bosch GKF 600 palm router, that sells for a similar price and is much more available, but it's a palm router and not too powerful. I guess it's worth trying to design the thing so that it can take a few common sizes, or include adapters.

And that's interesting about sketchup once supporting dxf output for free.

Offline John Stevenson

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Re: Water jet/ laser cutting costs.
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2015, 07:50:06 PM »
As a guide the place I use (lasershape in Nottingham) has a minimum order of £100+vat I had a manifold flange for an engine and 3 or 4 exhaust flanges cut from 10mm 316l SS and it still didn't exceed the minimum order. I did supply the dxf files and do the cad myself though.

Lee,
I use a place just outside of Derby and there is no minimum order, last job I sent in, rush job, one off was £12 PM me if you want details.

As a price guide I get type 23 stepper motor flanges cut in 6mm steel at £1 each for a 50 off QTY
John Stevenson

Offline dawesy

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Re: Water jet/ laser cutting costs.
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2015, 04:57:24 AM »
Pm in bound :D
Lee.
wishing my workshop was larger :(