Author Topic: CNC router table...  (Read 19337 times)

Offline John Hill

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CNC router table...
« on: January 08, 2015, 05:16:51 PM »
I have put my two cylinder atmospheric engine aside until the cooler weather and started on a project to build a CNC router table.

The table is quite big, about 900 x 2000mm. It will be that size because that is the size of the warehouse racking components I was given.

I have a few steppers and all the control equipment but I do worry that X axis will need a lot of drive however I have received a driver for 3 phase steppers which I have tested with a Fisher and Paykel washing machine motor. 

This is what the motor looks like..



Testing with EMC2 and a 36 volt power supply the motor turns with enormous torque but quite slow to accelerate and a top speed of, estimated, less than 200 rpm.  The motor has only 42 steps which would be rather coarse for any direct drive but maybe it will be usable with the endless chain concept I posted at http://www.cnczone.com/forums/linear-and-rotary-motion/254308-cable-chain-belt-drive-concept-long-axis.html

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Offline dsquire

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Re: CNC router table...
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2015, 06:51:20 PM »
Hi John

I have some of that cooler weather that you are waiting for. Send me up a container of hot air and I will fill it up with nice Cold Arctic Air and return it. That should be enought to keep the shed bearable. 
:lol: :lol:

Keep us posted on MadModder John as I'm sure you will find a good amount of interest with your cable/chain/belt drive concept.

Cheers  :beer:

Don
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: CNC router table...
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2015, 07:11:14 PM »
Another interesting mad mod, John! Looking forward to it. :coffee: :coffee: :coffee: :coffee:


Don, I think you sent your weather down here by mistake.........  :)
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
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Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: CNC router table...
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2015, 07:17:16 PM »
John,

Are you planning for a rigid gantry and a moving table or the other way around?

Eric
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Offline John Hill

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Re: CNC router table...
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2015, 09:29:22 PM »
Eric, fixed table and moving gantry.
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Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: CNC router table...
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2015, 11:56:19 PM »
Eric, fixed table and moving gantry.

Are you going to use one stepper to move the whole gantry or two?

I have been gather the parts to do a router. (8020!). Been debating back and forth if I want to do a fixed or moving gantry. Decided on a fixed gantry for the sole purpose of rigidity. With the 8020 I figured it would be stiffer.

I will definitely be watching what you do!

What will you be using for controller?

Eric
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Offline John Hill

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Re: CNC router table...
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2015, 12:32:17 AM »
Eric, I will be using the one washing machine motor to move the gantry and a 'cats cradle' arrangement to discourage any wracking.  I shudder at the thought of the cost of a 2 metre acme feed screw hence the idea of the endless chain drive.

My plan is to locate one end of the gantry with skate bearings around four sides of a square steel side rail (30x50mm rhs) but the other end of the gantry will just have a wheel running along the top of the rail on that side.  Time will tell if this will be adequate for router service.

I have a Linux installation of EMC2 but I am yet to learn anything about the other software that will be required to do anything useful.

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Offline vtsteam

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Re: CNC router table...
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2015, 11:48:20 AM »
John, I've used LinuxCNC (EMC2) with a moving gantry style mill, and like it.

There are lots of choices for designing and producing the G-code, but one free combo that works well on a Linux platform (through WINE) is the old Google Sketchup 7 or 8 in combination with the Phlatboyz Phlatscript. I've used all three together, and they are all no-cost software.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline John Hill

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Re: CNC router table...
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2015, 02:45:33 PM »
Thanks Vsteam,  I might have to get back to you when I am further along on this little 'adventure'.  Right now  Stepcon software is crashing while I am trying to 'tune' these motors which I hope is not a deeper problem with hardware suitability.  The metal supply shop will be open again on Monday and I will be able to get started on making the sliding components for the X axis.
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: CNC router table...
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2015, 03:35:49 PM »
John, Can you say how stepconf is crashing?

Is there an error message or does it close silently?

And which version of  LinuxCNC are you trying out?

If it crashes silently, can you open a terminal and run it from there?

When you do that there should be some error messages displayed.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline John Hill

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Re: CNC router table...
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2015, 10:39:42 PM »
Hi, Stepconf crashes with a black screen and black and white 'piano keys' over the top quarter of the screen, then a bit of coloured disturbances and back to a black screen.  I will have to find how to open a terminal and report back! :coffee:

[LATER]

I choose 'Applications' and opened a terminal and entered 'stemconf' at the prompt.  The program opened normally and crashed normally too!  I was left with the 'piano keys' flashing about every two seconds and otherwise a black screen.  Obviously I could not see the terminal window... :(



[LATER STILL]  I changed the printer port definition and no more 'piano keys',  not after several minutes of messing around with Stepconf.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 01:23:11 AM by John Hill »
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Offline John Hill

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Re: CNC router table...
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2015, 03:57:33 AM »
Now that Stepconf is apparently stable I can continue trying to 'tune' this washing machine motor.

The 3 phase driver (the piece of hardware)  has DIP switches to set 'steps per revolution', obviously these are micro steps as they range to many thousands starting from 400, presumably this is intended for a 200 step motor. Now I cant see that this hardware knows, or needs to know, the number of steps in the motor which in the case of the washing machine motor is only 42.

Stepconf requires me to set 'Driver Microstepping',  but why?   Surely a 'pulse' signal from the break out board to the stepper controller hardware is one pulse per motor step? 


There is obviously much for me to learn!!!!
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: CNC router table...
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2015, 12:30:52 PM »
John, steppers can have their coils essentially "rearranged" electrically and the pulses phased to allow micro stepping. It all depends on how many coil wires you have coming out of your motor. There are some advantages to microstepping, even though it would sometimes seem to be unnecessarily fine control of the machine's drive.

Here's one discussion of pros and cons:

http://www.micromo.com/microstepping-myths-and-realities

I'm not sure that one has it completely right. Microstepping can allow the simulation of near sinusoidal waveforms to the stepper motor, instead of square waves. And that is the reason for the reduction of noise and resonance -- those negative factors can hurt a stepper's ultimate performance as much as the necessary reduction in torque he talks about.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline John Hill

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Re: CNC router table...
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2015, 01:56:31 PM »
Thanks, that was a very interesting page to read with my morning coffee.

These washing machine motors have a lot of 'cogging', i.e. considerable reluctance to move from one position to the next,  so I assume only very low stepping will be possible.

Fortunately each of the 42 stator coils is readily accessable and here is an example of the level of modification possible...

....where someone is seeking just the right characteristics for his windmill alternator.

Standard configuration is 3 phases where each phase is 14 coils in series,  I have modified mine so that each phase is two strings of 7 in parallel which will have reduced the inductance and the voltage.  My best theory is that I should go further but 7 is not an easy number to divide,  I could make strings of three which would leave three coils unused or I could go the whole hog  and make each phase 14 coils in parallel.

14 coils in parallel would surely have very low inductance which does sound like an ideal characteristic for a stepper coil.  Presumably the stepper driver could handle the sudden current but the power supply might be a different matter!
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Offline John Hill

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Re: CNC router table...
« Reply #14 on: January 12, 2015, 02:12:09 AM »
I got the washing machine stepper going good today although it has taken me a couple of days to find the right number of steps per revolution. I finally found that 112 is the correct figure to set in Stepconf.  This figure of course is 8 times the number of coils.
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: CNC router table...
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2015, 08:13:26 AM »
Sounds very good. That's not so far from the usual 200. I'm sure the torque must be be high, and I bet electrical efficiency is good, too.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline vtsteam

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Re: CNC router table...
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2015, 08:24:08 AM »
John have you settled on a max current yet?

That's the most critical figure for a stepper motor. Too high and it kills the magnets, so there's always a definite figure in the motor rating.

Voltage supply to the driver, on the other hand is frequently much more than the original stepper motor rating in order to increase speed. But the driver always keeps the current at or below spec.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline John Hill

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Re: CNC router table...
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2015, 03:19:30 PM »
Hi Steve,

You say too much current kills the magnets, is that due to heating?  I have not yet tried to play with the current , I think it is set for 4 amps right now,  the coils are 0.6mm, in one motor the coils are series parallel so only 2 amps for them.

Or is damage done by excessive field strength scrambling the magnets?  These are ferrite magnets but there are folks who have converted them to neo magnets to get more output when used as wind generators.

I have a few spares on hand! :med:

I posted a question at http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/16-stepconf-wizard/28763-stepconf-question-from-a-newbie where 'Andy' is going to great pains to assure me this is not a stepper motor!  Ha ha, I dont think that is the spirit of MadModders! :lol:

One of the relics in my shed is a pedal generator I made years ago using one of these motors.  The  F@P motor of course is really too big for human scale operation so I took my saw and removed 24 stator coils leaving just 18!  It worked well for the pedal generator producing 100watts at average human input from the attached exercise bicycle.  This also works well as a stepper,  it has a much higher maximum speed than the unmodified motors and still produces useful torque.
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: CNC router table...
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2015, 06:56:18 PM »
John, I think it's the heating, so it should be possible to gradually work out what "feels" right. I think when they're just holding they put out as much heat as running. I have a few stepper motors that seem to run pretty hot, but seem to be within nameplate spec. I also think mounting them on metal probably acts as a heat sink somewhat, and the ones I have that run hot are mounted on plywood. It's been a few years, and they seem to still run as strong as they did. But I don't us them often.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline vtsteam

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Re: CNC router table...
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2015, 07:00:09 PM »
I posted a question at http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/16-stepconf-wizard/28763-stepconf-question-from-a-newbie where 'Andy' is going to great pains to assure me this is not a stepper motor!  Ha ha, I dont think that is the spirit of MadModders! :lol:


Where's their spirit of adventure?  :nrocks:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline John Hill

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Re: CNC router table...
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2015, 07:06:25 PM »
The driver is configured to drop the current after a short time of no movement but of course slow stepping would have full current 1/3 of the time.. :coffee:
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Offline John Hill

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Re: CNC router table...
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2015, 02:29:11 AM »
I spent a bit more time today messing with various configurations of the F@P stator.  One stator has been cut down to just 18 coils ( v:42) and I converted that to each phase consisting of six coils in series parallel (3 coils x 2).



This is by far the fastest configuration I have ever tested with a top speed of 600 rpm.  I need to think some more and decide if further improvements are possible.  Of course speed is not everything and low speed torque is probably more important.
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: CNC router table...
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2015, 08:52:10 AM »
John I was just thinking yesterday that paralleling coils would raise the voltage they see vs running them serial (and so increase speed), while the full circuit circuit current could increase proportionately without exceeding the current/heat limits of individual coils.

And sounds like that is what you've done.  :clap:

Another thought...... maybe make a prony brake from two sticks of wood bolted together, and a hole drilled through the joint to make a shaft clamp. Measure out some convenient arm length along the sticks from the shaft, and put a spring scale at that point. Energize the motor, and check the scale reading. The torque is the distance out, times the scale reading

That will give you a torque measurement in whatever units you chose. Generally steppers are rated at holding torque, (and in the U.S. as in.oz.). You could check holding torque by having the motor energized but stationary, and moving the scale until it jumps a step -- that point would be the lmit of holding torque. This would give you some idea of the performance of your stepper, and also allow you to compare different speed hookups and microstepping effects.

If you don't have a scale, you can make one effectively from the brake itself. Put  a spring on the brake to a fixed point, add a dial and pointer. Calibrate with some known weights, and then do your test of the motor.
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg

Offline John Hill

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Re: CNC router table...
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2015, 01:29:05 PM »
Yep,  De Prony brake is under consideration!
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Offline vtsteam

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Re: CNC router table...
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2015, 09:09:20 PM »
Cool!  :coffee: :clap:
I love it when a Plan B comes together!
Steve
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sDubB0-REg