Fight against annoying power cuts!

[PekkaNF]

I have been reading Andrew's topic "Bally Power Cuts !" with great interest
http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,9984.0.html

I don't live in the countryside, but this area is still pretty sparsely populated and has some power lines that seem to go down almost once a year when there is autumn storm.

I have two UPS for computer/WiFi and two laptops with 2/3 batteries 70% charged all the time for each.

What is more that autumn storms seem to get here later and later every year and  year 2011 it was in Boxing day and pretty damn cold. Power break lasted almost three days and we have a wood fired oven but our friend had not. They were four strong and were ready to evacuate and move in to our house at that evening - middle of packing essentials they got power on on we few hours later.

I have oil/electricity central heating with radiators, it does not need much electricity to feed oil burner and circulation pump, 200 W at most.

Calculated that I could easily construct 12/24 V system with 200/100 Ah batteries and sinusoidal inverter to go trough up to 9 h power cut. That should do most, but not the longest and most troublesome. So, it would need an DC generator (probably self-build) or generator and very expensive battery charger (20-30A chargers are not cheap). But it would be quiet for whole night.

Then I considered these small 1Kw briefcase generators, small, easy to store and Honda/Yamaha seem to be good and produce enough of good quality electricity. I have had some problems storing gasoline for a long time, would really need a good system to recycle gasoline from canisters to car and that sounds like eventually something could go wrong (water, contamination, dent on my car.....). Not sure how easy to maintain, but they definately seem to need a lot of maintenance to run for three days more or less continous.

I finally splashed out my cash (actually swiped Visa-card) and bought year 2008 diesel generator half price, because it has been sitting on the cardboard box on the storage all this time and it's all open roll cage construction I prefer for maintenance and transportation. It's noisy, probably that's why they are not sold for construction workers anymore.

it has Yanmar L70AE diesel engine and single phase 3,9KWA alternator. Engine manual is pretty good, alternator manuals pretty basic and generic, generator manual very sketchy and importer Finnish manual next to useless.

I like that it is simple one. Recoil start and all. Would have been nice to have a starter motor without dynamo/regulator/small battery, but that was not an option, just ideal for me.

Got 4l of oil and 20l gallon filled with oil. I still need to find a maintenance manual, spare filters (to be changed after 200 h of run, but good to get before I need one).

The generator is this type Pramac E4500
http://www.pramac.com/pages/Product_detail_fr/513?ixRecordTableName=vw_p_product_sheet&root_node=2&lang=en_GB&id_market=176&id_product=1026&ixRecordId=1026

I still have to run it in and familiarize, just to make sure it works when I need it.

It has a small gas tank. It's really not that big problem. But 2-3 hrs of running time could be sometimes a bit limiting and the fuel filter is inside the tank.

I'm considering either external fuel tank with an electric driven pump AND good big automotive type diesel fuel filters and all that pluming. OR just a bigger tank over that roll cage and some bigger filter attached to the frame.

What could go wrong?

Pekka

[chipenter]

Most diesels will run on light heating oil just wont start on it , two tanks and a t valve or mix diesel and oil 50 50 .

[awemawson]

Best of luck with the project Pekka 

I'm at the 'gathering parts' stage with my generator. You will have seen the pictures in the 'Bally Power Cuts' thread. Generator is here looking splendid. I've ordered a 60 litre diesel tank that arrived yesterday, and am waiting for an electric fuel lift pump, piping and a heavy duty battery. I decided to go for a whopping big battery (Yuasa 622) that is the same one used on my tractors for interchangability. I have a smaller one that cranks ok if you use the decompressor to get it started, but as I want automatic change over and starting in freezing conditions bigger is better as it'll have to turn over with the decompressor not used!

I'll be building a 'lean to' against a chimney breast of the house to house it, but to fit it all in in the limited length, the tank and battery will have to go under the engine / generator which will need lifting 300 mm. To this end I'm considering welding up a complete new sled for it incorporating space under for tank and battery and 'sockets' to receive a pallet pump truck for moving it into place.

When the action starts I'll start a new project thread.

[PekkaNF]

Most diesels will run on light heating oil just wont start on it , two tanks and a t valve or mix diesel and oil 50 50 .

Yea but - no but. I have bought diesel from the pump, because on 15l it does not make much difference here. Later on I might have my oil tanks cleaned and order motor/heating oil, it's pretty much the same price, but it's guaranteed to meet EN590 or whatever this diesel standard is.

Best of luck with the project Pekka 

I'm at the 'gathering parts' stage with my generator. You will have seen the pictures in the 'Bally Power Cuts' thread. Generator is here looking splendid. I've ordered a 60 litre diesel tank that arrived yesterday, and am waiting for an electric fuel lift pump, piping and a heavy duty battery. I decided to go for a whopping big battery (Yuasa 622) that is the same one used on my tractors for interchangability. I have a smaller one that cranks ok if you use the decompressor to get it started, but as I want automatic change over and starting in freezing conditions bigger is better as it'll have to turn over with the decompressor not used!

I'll be building a 'lean to' against a chimney breast of the house to house it, but to fit it all in in the limited length, the tank and battery will have to go under the engine / generator which will need lifting 300 mm. To this end I'm considering welding up a complete new sled for it incorporating space under for tank and battery and 'sockets' to receive a pallet pump truck for moving it into place.

When the action starts I'll start a new project thread.

I have been following your thread with great interest. My parents used to have a Lister generator most part of the -70s. We were off the grid and generator was automatic start. Gravity feed fuel system. This generator was mounted on very substantial concrete footing, then rubber feet, then steel plinth and generator. Whole thing had a shed build over it. It was behind of the barn because it was pretty loud even in the shed.

I need to consider how I can wire it onto heat circulation water pump and oil burner. Pump is no problem, but oil burner has some regulation stuff and here it is not that simple to assemble transfer switch, there is whole lot of regulation and red tape. I'm actually considering if I have a small separate transfer switch for heating system only.

Pekka

[awemawson]

At a simplistic level could you not just wire a socket from the generator close to the boiler oil pump and circulating pump (they probably have a common feed anyway) and have them on a plug so you can unplug when the power goes off and plug them manually into the generator socket, reversing the operation when the lights come back on ?

On my oil fired boiler (well actually I have three in separate buildings  ) they have a mains feed that goes to the boiler-controller/timer and everything else the boiler needs like the circulating pump and oil pump come off this same feed.

[vtsteam]

Pekka, I'm not sure of your climate, but am guessing it's at least as cold as it is here in southern Vermont. In the Northeast US, diesel is blended for the season. It isn't the same summer vs, winter. In winter, the fuel has a higher proportion of kerosene (parrafin - Br.) so that it won't gel in the fuel lines and tank. Of course we get temps fairly regularly in the coldest part of the winter of -10F (-23C) and occasionally -20F.

While using heating oil might be okay for a more moderate climate, like Britain, it could pose problems in a harsher winter location. And, for the cold season, it's best to buy new diesel fuel here at the beginning of winter to get the winter blend, rather than in late summer, when it's still summer blend.

Sounds like you've bought real diesel fuel, so all should be well! 

[PekkaNF]

At a simplistic level could you not just wire a socket from the generator close to the boiler oil pump and circulating pump (they probably have a common feed anyway) and have them on a plug so you can unplug when the power goes off and plug them manually into the generator socket, reversing the operation when the lights come back on ?

On my oil fired boiler (well actually I have three in separate buildings  ) they have a mains feed that goes to the boiler-controller/timer and everything else the boiler needs like the circulating pump and oil pump come off this same feed.

Here it's a little more complicated
1) Oil burner needs a separate circuit: fuse/CB - cable - red main switch next to door - oil burner. No plugs/socets alowed anywhere.
2) Circulation pump is no sweat - plug is fine....

Transfer switch has to postitively-absolutely isolate here N and L both. Positive forced contact make/break and all that works. I have to figure out if this can be done to one phase, two CB/two circuit. Or do I need to have the whole BIG four/five pole change over switch and use only N/L.

Pekka, I'm not sure of your climate, but am guessing it's at least as cold as it is here in southern Vermont. In the Northeast US, diesel is blended for the season. It isn't the same summer vs, winter. In winter, the fuel has a higher proportion of kerosene (parrafin - Br.) so that it won't gel in the fuel lines and tank. Of course we get temps fairly regularly in the coldest part of the winter of -10F (-23C) and occasionally -20F.

While using heating oil might be okay for a more moderate climate, like Britain, it could pose problems in a harsher winter location. And, for the cold season, it's best to buy new diesel fuel here at the beginning of winter to get the winter blend, rather than in late summer, when it's still summer blend.

Sounds like you've bought real diesel fuel, so all should be well! 

We have here winter/arctic/santa quality diesel. Small oil heaters are not that uncommon....air pre heater is one that I have more trouble with. I don't think I need these most time, hope I keep the alligator in warm storage  and that should keep it ready to start. Prob. a preheater over muffler could keep the bugger running if it gets -35C cold outside.

Pekka

[PekkaNF]

Bugger.....

1) Got be a dedicated driver an host on one dinner, that took care of yesterday.

2) Got 10-15 cm snow, threes looks droopy, but it probably gets warmer and there is no wind now. Snow gives a little stuff to do and then wife need us to go shopping. Apparently everyone else had the same idea.....took a little longer.

So I haven't run the new generator yet. Has to remove the tank and mysteryfuel that is inside of it.

The tank has paper filter inside and the whole system is gravity fed. Tank is small and I'm considering a bigger tank after a little while.

Question: Is there a good fuel filtration system on gravity fed system?

Or, am I better off with transfer pump and automotive or such filter pack?

Thanks,
Pekka

[PekkaNF]

I cleaned up the fuel tank, double checked everything, filled the tank with fuel and tried to bleed the system. No luck. Took it back to shop and picked it up later. The injection pump plunger had stuck....not sure how did they free it, but now it starts first time.

I have to see it runs least 20 h or so before doing anything to it, but the plan is to remove original tank and replace it with a bigger tank. I have two reasons: I want fuel filter out of the tank and really more than three hours of run time would be nice.

There is two avenues I need to check:
1) Gravity fed fuel tank location is limitation when it comes to fuel filter. If I put oversize car or marine filter pack (two units, one to separate water) do I get away with modest head? Or do I really need a electric transfer pump?

2) If I need an electric transfer pump, then oil level and engine temperature switch connected to stop-solenoid would be prudent as well. Right now the motor has no electric parts. Not even a single wire. Neat.

Pekka

[awemawson]

I'm still waiting on a 1/4" BSP banjo bolt and 8 mm banjo to couple the fuel to my new generator, but I did re-wire the starting circuits and a fuel lift pump the other day. Amazingly it started first turn just on the fuel left in the filter canister 

[vtsteam]

My Lister diesel doesn't need electricity to run, so far, either.

Awhile back, I was thinking about using a strand of solder as a mechanical fusible link that would break if the head overheated from loss of coolant, and allow a spring to shut the fuel rack. Wasn't sure where to put it -- probably near the exhaust manifold, and was going to check the engine when warmed up with an IR thermometer to find a workable location.

[awemawson]

Steve would solder not melt at rather too high a temperature? Something like 'woods metal' or cerrocast, which are low melting point bismuth based alloys might be in a better range.

Or butcher the wax cartridge from a vehicle thermostat, which after all are set at about the right temperature.

[vtsteam]

Andrew, I think exhaust temps can be up there. The trick would be to find somewhere that normally doesn't get above say 300F. But rises rapidly if something goes wrong.

Maybe even a fusible plug somewhere in the exhaust manifold, cast with an eye to hook the spring onto. I don't know -- didn't investigate it further for specific temps and materials.

My Listeroid is water cooled, so coolant loss is a problem that an air-cooled engine wouldn't have.

Though thinking about it -- exhaust temp probably would go up for oil loss, or over temp, too.

In flying ultralights with air cooled 2 stroke engines EGT was constantly monitored, and gave faster indications than CHT (also monitored)

[mattinker]

I understand why you like the idea that you can build an non-electric safety shut down, but it is running a generator, I don't see the point!

Regards, Matthew.

[awemawson]

I understand why you like the idea that you can build an non-electric safety shut down, but it is running a generator, I don't see the point!

Regards, Matthew.

Good point Matthew, and probably just needs a hold in solenoid in series with a bi-metallic strip. 

[vtsteam]

Simplicity and cost, Matt.

A diesel fuel rack closure would require  an electronic actuator strong enough and with enough throw to close the fuel rack, plus a sensor, logic and likely a low voltage DC power supply.

To perform the same function that a bit of solder and a spring would.

A fusible link would also be able to handle generator overload and/or catastrophic failure. A fusible link would also be more robust, being simple and mechanical, and easy to check for condition.

Anyway, different folks, different boats, as I used to say! 
 

[vtsteam]

ps. how does the electronic version open the rack to start? And if normally open, and needs power to close, what happens when the engine shuts down and voltage drops? Does it open again before the crank is stationary? On my 600 RPM engine with 24" flywheels and huge inertia, you'd be off and running again as soon as it passed TDC.

Can't use logic here because the circuit is dead. Can't use it to begin with when trying to start because it's also dead, so you need a mechanical lock or latch (likely more materials than the fusible link system was altogether), or a battery. Battery must be kept charged and maintained on an emergency generator, etc. etc.

There are solutions to every electromechanical problem, including this one. but I like simple robust mechanical solutions, rather than electronics, wherever possible.

[mattinker]

I suspected as much! I can see a small electric motor driving allthread with a nut on it as an actuator, wall wart power and a thermostatic switch! This is a safety device so it only needs resetting after a potential overheating.
 That wouldn't be the same challenge but it wouldn't be expensive either.

Regards, Matthew.

[vtsteam]

Well, playing devil's advocate here because I like solving how-to puzzles, you might be able to latch an electromechanical system with a big capacitor that bleeds down slowly enough after the engine is stationary, without needing a battery. And using a counter balance spring maybe a solenoid might be strong enough and have enough throw. Either that, or the solenoid throws a latch to stop. Anyway, it's do-able if someone wants to think it through.

[PekkaNF]

I would be happy if I could keep the motor as simple as possible. Another thing is that I don't want to complicate generator/mains side. I would hate to have wallwarts or such on generator that is going to get the handling portable emergency/construction site generator is getting.

My engine is fairly similar than this one but this one has whole lot more features e.r. clutter:

This has at 2:50 shut off solenoid. very similar than on my oil burner on furnace. I would need a provision for manual override.

I didn't though of the mechanical over temperature shutdown, but I can imagine it's doable. Fusible links? Bowden cable?

Pekka

[awemawson]

Surely a simple solenoid holding the end of the spring in series with a bi-metallic strip. Hold solenoid in manually when starting, the generator will then continue holding it, and drop out on over heat.

My new generator has an oil pressure gauge with a sensing contact on it to wire to the control box for 'shut down on low pressure'. There is a button on the front of the gauge to press when starting to provide a similar force condition.

[vtsteam]

I like that one Andrew. 

[awemawson]

'swhat I was advocating in post #14 

[vtsteam]

Ah, didn't get the "Hold in solenoid" part. 

[mattinker]

I would hate to have wallwarts or such on generator that is going to get the handling portable emergency/construction site generator is getting.

Using wallwarts as a tiny power supply is a good solution for low voltage DC. They don't have to take up a power point, just pick up 220/240 or 110 volts ( the European model that we have in France are particularly interesting with their 6mm round pins which accept dominoes making connecting wires on extremely easy). Tucked out of the way in an electrical junction box, they needn't take up much room.

[mattinker]

Surely a simple solenoid holding the end of the spring in series with a bi-metallic strip. Hold solenoid in manually when starting, the generator will then continue holding it, and drop out on over heat.

I don't see it, the idea is that it cuts when over heating, this requires contacts that open over a certain temperature, they won't need holding as long as it's below a certain temperature. My proposition of a small motor that pulls the stop using a a link when a contact closes over a certain temperature (bi metal strip, small "klixon" type switch or simple cheap temp cut out switch.) does this without having to re-arm at start up!

Regards; Matthew

[PekkaNF]

Diesel may have a valve that is kept open (fuel flowing) when energized. When it is not energized, spring closes the plunger and fuel supply to the injection pump is cut. Therefore diesels tend to be either no electric power at all (and no such valve or means of operating it) or all the works, when it is no problem at all.

The problem starts if you start picking features that don't lead to them naturally.

Petrol engine has always the sparky parts....and needs a contact.

What I have against wallwart and such that they are normal consumer products made to survive warranty period at most in cosy living room and therefore I would not trust them outside of the house on anything more demanding than entertainment. I don't see point of downgrading an emergency generator reliability. But this is my personal take and should not be taken as an offense.

Pekka

[awemawson]

As Pekka says, the fuel rack is pulled out to run and returns by spring to stop. My big new generator has a large solenoid doing exactly this, but is 12v off the starting system. I'm advocating a solenoid rated at whatever Steve's Lister clone provides (110?) so no extras bits other than the solenoid.

This has the advantage that the system is 'tested' each time you start, so if the bi-metallic strip contacts have oxidised you know. If you rely on something working only in a (hopefully rare) fault situation it may or may not work ! I suppose it's my background supporting critical systems that makes me think this way 

[mattinker]

Diesel may have a valve that is kept open (fuel flowing) when energized. When it is not energized, spring closes the plunger and fuel supply to the injection pump is cut. Therefore diesels tend to be either no electric power at all (and no such valve or means of operating it) or all the works, when it is no problem at all.

The problem starts if you start picking features that don't lead to them naturally.


What I have against wallwart and such that they are normal consumer products made to survive warranty period at most in cosy living room and therefore I would not trust them outside of the house on anything more demanding than entertainment. I don't see point of downgrading an emergency generator reliability. But this is my personal take and should not be taken as an offense.

Pekka

Steve's diesel engine doesn't have an electric stop (unless I've missed something!), which mean that the stop is mechanical therefore, the stop lever needs to be pulled in the event of overheating. This is why I proposed a simple electric motor screw set-up, simple to implicate on a purely mechanical engine!

No offense taken! I'd just like to point out that problems of built in obsolescence don't really apply to backup generators as they don't run for many hours!

Regards, Matthew

[awemawson]

Photo attached of the fuel solenoid arrangement on my Lister. Steve's won't have the solenoid, but the arrangement of spring loaded fuel rack will be similar I suspect

[vtsteam]

Oh, like I said, I'm sure there are plenty of electromechanical solutions and all of them will work for their owner preferences. But my preference (only for me) would be for the fusible plug or link and spring. I just meant that if you went electromechanical, I thought Andrew's design was one I liked.

But I'm a mechanical guy by preference, not an electronic guy, which is why I like this forum. I take joy in mechanical solutions to things, and the simpler, and the more they use common or recycled materials, the better (for me, only).

Not saying I don't use and like electronics (I own 2 cnc machines, built one). But my heart is in devices made of scrap metal and put together using hand tools, if I can manage it. If I had iron ore on my property, I'd probably be starting with that!

[PekkaNF]

Got CAV single fileter unit.

It has four unions I wonder what are the alternative ways of using them and which one would work best?

Pekka

[awemawson]

That's the exactly the same filter as fitted to my 3 cylinder Lister generator 

[DavidA]

I suspect the four ports are to give you the option of connecting the supply/discharge to either side (depending on your pipework) without having to bend the pipes back on themselves.  You just blank off the ports you don't need.

But I may be wrong.

Dave.

[awemawson]

Yes I can confirm that is the case

[PekkaNF]

Sounds leggit. Thank you. It has two blanks fitted. Never really paid antention of the fiter fittings, other than put incoming and outgoing ports right way. I tought that there may be some other clever options. Like there is a "one-pipe" system for oil furnace burner here. It has one pipe from the tank, but there is filter and water/air separator unit that has in/out ports for the burner.

I'm thinkking of mounting this fuelfiler unit such way that bleed screw becomes highest point of the pipe work. All in line of the fuel feed line straight to the injection pump. Then one continous return line from the injector back to the tank.

I have been reading that there is available two different type of filter for this one "red" 30 micron and "blue" 10 micron, which former seems to be often used for gravity fed system. I have seen some talk about even finer and more specialized filters....I don't think I need to venture there with this engine.

Other thing is a fuel tank. Original one is a bit too small. I went to check cheap engine external tanks, but they were very basic and looked like would lack durability. I check the innards and:
* Caps had very basic seals, not even sure if they would survive diesel
* Suction pipe was rigid corrugated plastic pipe, no weight, mesh or anything
* No provision for breather

This looks really nice, but really expensive too for small cheap diesel:
http://www.vetus-shop.com/vetus-fuel-tank-diesel-25-litre-p-1783.html

Pekka

[awemawson]

On mine, rather unusually the injector leak off pipe runs back into one of the tappings on the filter rather than back to the tank in it's own pipe.  Looks to be original and seems to work, however I think that originally it had a gravity tank rather than the lower level pumped one that I will be using. I think that it's a case of observing and seeing what happens.  If need be there is a spare 1/4 bsp input to the tank that I could route it to.

[vtsteam]

Pekka, Vetus is a familiar name from back when I was a boat builder. But that tank price is outrageous!

I hate to tell you this because you'll think I'm nuts, but back in my ultralight flying and building days, we just made tanks out of heavy wall polyethylene (polythene-Br.?) portable carrying gas (petrol) tanks. There was a round barrel shaped variety (Eagle brand) that seemed a lot stiffer and thicker walled than the usual rectangular jerry can shape. Anyway, the Vetus must be close to $300 Stateside, and a gerry can would set you back $15 to $30, and both are made of the same material.

There are grommet mount fuel shut-off fittings that you can add to a portable plastic tank to attach the fuel line to.  You drill a specified hole size in the tank and put a special grommet around the tank fitting and push it into the hole where it locks in place. The tank should be heavy wall, where you add this -- some of the latest fuel tanks are paper thin in the sides.

http://aircraftproducts.wicksaircraft.com/category/fuel-valves


(see tank mount valves near bottom of page

re. Vetus tank : The main thing that degrades polyethylene is sunlight, so if you protect it, it should last forever. Most fuel tanks are black poly, but the Vetus isn't even that! Most gerry cans are red (petrol) yellow (diesel) or blue (kerosene -paraaffin) here.  If you spray paint poly tank with black paint, it doesn't stick well (can be scratched) but in a stationary use, will be unlikely to be disturbed, so should last. Or you could encase it in something else, like tin or wood.

[PekkaNF]

Pekka, Vetus is a familiar name from back when I was a boat builder. But that tank price is outrageous!

And that was a pretty good price and accessories.....but the price is way too much because I'm not a wall street banker.

I hate to tell you this because you'll think I'm nuts, but back in my ultralight flying and building days, we just made tanks out of heavy wall polyethylene (polythene-Br.?) portable carrying gas (petrol) tanks. There was a round barrel shaped variety (Eagle brand) that seemed a lot stiffer and thicker walled than the usual rectangular jerry can shape. Anyway, the Vetus must be close to $300 Stateside, and a gerry can would set you back $15 to $30, and both are made of the same material.

Nope all that makses sense. I have been looking spare/auxiliar tanks they seem to be made out of HDPE, some with thick walls (regulation on EU). Wish I could find one with two caps or find a way of mounting unions on them.

There are grommet mount fuel shut-off fittings that you can add to a portable plastic tank to attach the fuel line to.  You drill a specified hole size in the tank and put a special grommet around the tank fitting and push it into the hole where it locks in place. The tank should be heavy wall, where you add this -- some of the latest fuel tanks are paper thin in the sides.

http://aircraftproducts.wicksaircraft.com/category/fuel-valves


(see tank mount valves near bottom of page

That is one new idea to me, how does the crommet thing works? Just correct size hole, squese Viton gromment on and valve stem in?

re. Vetus tank : The main thing that degrades polyethylene is sunlight, so if you protect it, it should last forever. Most fuel tanks are black poly, but the Vetus isn't even that! Most gerry cans are red (petrol) yellow (diesel) or blue (kerosene -paraaffin) here.  If you spray paint poly tank with black paint, it doesn't stick well (can be scratched) but in a stationary use, will be unlikely to be disturbed, so should last. Or you could encase it in something else, like tin or wood.

My tank will not be much in the sun, and those spare tanks have black exerior, but it's all nice to know.

I have been wondering those color codes, I see all color of spare tanks, even orange and new is blue (says alcohol/gas proof) but use seems to be random. In the army there were some colr codes, I was mostly conserned about drinking water. One color was red jerry cans. But cann't remember what they had.

I'm thinkking of using boat aux fuel tank (HDPE) and go trough all seals and building the in/out pipe & breather unions. What do you think?

Plan B is to accept that I need a fuel pump and make one of these:
http://www.hsaoy.com/aggregaatit/Lisavarusteet/PA_Polttoainejarjestelmat/kuvat/PA.20JD.jpg

Pekka

[awemawson]

I bought a tank off ebay that is rotationally moulded black HDPE with fittings moulded in. Surplus from a stand by generator manufacturer who has changed his design / layout. 60 litres so roughly 2 foot square and a foot tall.

Chap has several and accepted a lower offer than his asking price

[vtsteam]

Tank looks good, Andrew.

Pekka, re.

That is one new idea to me, how does the crommet thing works? Just correct size hole, squese Viton gromment on and valve stem in?

The grommet pushes into the hole in a plastic tank. It has a groove around the circumference that the plastic fits into. Then you push the metal tank valve fitting into the grommet. It has a locking barb on the end, and is sized so that it applies pressure to the plastic in the groove  and that seals the tank. The barb prevents it from coming out again.

[PekkaNF]

That tank looks good. It is a about size of my generator

VT. Than you, that's what I thought. And apparently it is very reliable.

Have to see if I can find something like that here first, if not then I have to order from the web. Unless, I'll come up with a cunning plan before. I'm going to see some spare diesel tanks today after the work.

I have to run generator about an hour, check how it works and then I probably change the oil and check up how to fit new fuel filter and works. have to get enough stuff to have something to in the next few days.

Pekka

[vtsteam]

Pekka, I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier (brain is aging) but my Indian Listeroid diesel uses gravity feed diesel through a fuel filter (and not much gravity, either -- the original tank is mounted on the engine, so we're talking maybe 100 mm head pressure).

I could have given you the filter numbers and photographed mine because it appears to be a stock Delco (I believe) filter housing and filter. I actually forgot it had a fuel filter. I think it's quite a bit smaller than the one you purchased, so you should have no problems -- assuming flow is even less restricted.

Incidentally, with a case as large as my engine's (and pure splash lubrication) there are all sorts of low tech solutions to adding a crankcase lube oil filter -- including adding a baffle to the sump door plate (yes it actually has a side door!) filled with filter material and holes at the bottom through which splashed oil drains back into the crankcase.

[vtsteam]

ps. I don't like too large a tank on an emergency diesel generator because I don't want a lot of fuel to age in the tank between uses. And a large tank with only a small amount of fuel in it tends to go bad quickly. A small tank keeps fuel in better condition longer, and can be drained easily if need be, and the fuel replaced.

I think maybe a smart Idea for more capacity, would be to use a removable 5 gallon gerry can style tank with a quick disconnect that doubles as an occasional fuel source for other frequently used equipment. That would use up old fuel and keep generator fuel fresh.

Then you could maybe just plug it into the engine when needed to extend run time. It saves having to pour fuel into a small tank during a run (always a problem with a built in tank -- you have to shut down the generator and wait for it to cool to refuel).

[PekkaNF]

Thanks. I appreciate your effort.

Originally this has about 2-3 litre tank that has fuel filter inside. Very compact, but not best place to replace.

I tought of using the original tank and having a feeder tank connceted to it with electric pump and level switch of some sort.

Then I tought of T-connector between original fuel tank and auxiliar connection, but when I removed the tank I found out there was just over 1" stump of rubber fuel line between fuel tap and injectioon pump. Unless I can source fuel grade T-line, this is not feasible.

I bought four jerry cans, when they arrived, I was surpriced to find that they were german NATO-cans and very nice, but none of my hardware fits them! They have a bigger opening that others I have seen. Can't use spout etc....

Have to check some options tomorow.

Pekka

[PekkaNF]

Got fuel line quick disconnect and tried to mock up parts together, but space is tight.

Pekka, I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier (brain is aging) but my Indian Listeroid diesel uses gravity feed diesel through a fuel filter (and not much gravity, either -- the original tank is mounted on the engine, so we're talking maybe 100 mm head pressure).

I could have given you the filter numbers and photographed mine because it appears to be a stock Delco (I believe) filter housing and filter. I actually forgot it had a fuel filter. I think it's quite a bit smaller than the one you purchased, so you should have no problems -- assuming flow is even less restricted.

Do you have a can/cardridge type filter or in-line can? Smaller filter would solve here some problems. I may need to go for smaller filters, if I want to use original tank. I had the idea of let go with original tank and use that space for filter.

I don't expect much problem with diesel oil aging, but having a small fixed tank would be nice to have sometimes. Trying to fiqure if I could connct two tanks parallel and isolate auxiliary tank with quick disconnect. I have one idea that needs testing.

Pekka

[vtsteam]

Here. Pekka:

[vtsteam]

It was tough locating that filter, oddly emough, on the web. Must be unusual here in the States.

But I did find it in the UK:

http://www.stationaryengineparts.com/Cartridge-Fuel-Filter-Assembly-Late-Type.html

[Manxmodder]

Steve,I can confirm that that type and size of filter does seem quite commonly used here in the UK and British Isles. Also see a lot of similar units fitted to central heating oil storage tanks around these shores......OZ.

[PekkaNF]

Thank you. That gave me anoher idea - heating oil filter

Thre are plenty of different heating oil filters here and they are very nice size and pretty affordable.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/bhp/heating-oil-filter

I just wonder how efficient they are. I have one and change it about after 1500 - 2000 l of heating oil. The filter element seems to be about same size than this Yanmar and if I remember right it should be changed after 200 h of use i.e. about 200 litres of filtered oil. This would suggest finer filtering or more conservative dimenssioning.

I found some this type material that has some indication;
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/heating-oil-filters/3137098/

But lot of hardware store filers have very vague indication of filering efficiency. I see if I can mount these. Something to ponder when wife is at work.

Pekka

[PekkaNF]

Looks like I can't have the cake and eat it too!

Originally I bought the big filter to fit it where the small fuel tank is located now. See first picture. I was thinkking to use the clamps and rubber grommets to hold aluminium or steel plate that would allow me to mount the filter unit for a good access.

I was trying to find a gravity feed tank which I could mount traditionally and dispense with prinming pumps and all that. It just looks that to find 10-20 litre tank of proper size and half decent price is hard. It should be just a tad shorter than 20l traditional Jerry can.

I'm that desperate that I'm even looking the old stanless kichen sink as possible base material for the fuel tank. I prefer one mounted tank over puzzle.

Plan B is to put a shelf on top of the generator and bungee hooks for a boat spare tank, fit a bulb pump between the fuel line and filter. Tank itself needs a minimum of modifivations and almost fits inside of the generator frame. See second picture.

Plan C is to find a smaller filter (possibly with a priming pump) and retain the old tank, rout the line trough new filter and put a aux fuel line disconnect to filter input side. Problem is that the only free place for this large filter comes within 2" of the generator cooling exit.

Third picture illustrates difference of the diesel oil filer, heating oil filter and inline filter size.

Pekka

[vtsteam]

I use a hardware store heating oil filter in our kerosene (paraffin) heater line, and that is gravity fed.  Seems like you could find an element that filters to the proper micron size for any application. Actually, a look at the one in the tank should tell you if it's a folded paper or felt filter. doubt it's anything special.

[PekkaNF]

I took a day off from this problem/chanlenge and started to think that here opposite of good might be prefect.

I'm thinkking of rigging a fuel tank gravity feed and keep everything simple - if it ever is.

I'm thinking of using a normal spare tank and keeping it almost empty when in storage. When put to proper use: bleeding all bad fuel out, fueling it, fitting tank, and it should start with first pull.

I have few options, each has it't own set of compromise.

1) Tank venting:
* breather filter???
* Valve to reduce condensation, fuel aging, and leakage when generator is tranported or moved about.

2) Fuel outlet:
* On top of tank. Won't leak when in store or in use, but needs a fuel tube inside the tank and priming pump.
* Bottom of the fuel tank more simple on every account, might leak if used improperly, although I have no intention.

I'm pretty confident I'll get it working in any case.

Interesting thing is that I was trying to buy today diesel proof fuel tubing and the shop had only Gates rubber hose, one type inside the tank and the other outside the tank.

I walked trough all the selves and on chainsaws they had vinyt tubing:
https://www.oregonpartsstore.com/07-258.html

I have allways avoided using vinyl on any fuel, but apparentyly there is a type that will take least gasoline. But will this particular one (Oregon 07-258) behave well with diesel? Will it work only outside of the tank or can it be immersed?

Pekka

[vtsteam]

Odd but "in the old days" it seemed most chainsaws used clear vinyl tubing from the carb forward. And since it was gas/oil mix, I imagine diesel wouldn't be any different. It did get stiff after several years and needed to be replaced if you removed it, but it was easy to do and cost less then 50 cents  a foot.

Then fancy saws like my Stihl chainsaw and Honda brush cutter started to use special black colored synthetic rubber in the design. And it was no longer a straight length of tube, but a moulded shape. Cost about 50 times as much, required a special order to replace (if not "legacied") and didn't last more than a couple years because it broke down with the new ethanol/gasoline mixes. Split, leaked fuel on you, or sucked air into the carb, leaning, overheating and scoring the cylinder on my Stihl saw.

I don't know what is used these days on fancy equipment, but my el cheapo Poulan chainsaw still uses clear vinyl fuel line tubing for gas and oil mix, which has shown no signs of deterioration after 3 years of hard use. And that isn't even the "special" Oregon tinted and stamped fuel tubing (which I believe might be silicone based) -- just the plain old cler vinyl stuff from years ago.

So I dunno. Don't know why the change, and why the old stuff still seems to work. We also used to use clear vinyl fuel line tubing on our model airplane engines, running methanol, nitromethane and castor oil blends. Worked fine. I don't really understand what's wrong with clear vinyl now.

[PekkaNF]

I know. Good old times you bought any service station or any even remotely related shop clear fuel tube and it did the trick.

On RC engines I think it was silicon tube for methanol and this "clear" PVC tube for gasoline. You were fine as long as you didn't mix. Everybody knew it. Then THEY mixed the fuel.

And there is incredible different amoun of different materials floating around and nobody knows what they are selling or using. Try google Tygon, that is often recommended. Which one?

I have a tight spot and I'm wondereing if I could use this tube, because it has thinner wall and I just might be able to squese it in there.

Pekka

[vtsteam]

On RC engines I think it was silicon tube for methanol and this "clear" PVC tube for gasoline. You were fine as long as you didn't mix. ..

Actually I'm talking control line days (for me) in the early 60's and there was no silicone tubing -- it was all clear vinyl fuel line, distributed by Perfect (brand name). It was also found inside Thimble Drome/Cox half-A engines in the built in radial mount fuel tank, and also what we used on the fuel pump from the can, or to connect an external tank to an engine. And that was all methanol/castor oil mix. The vinyl handled it - no problem. It was very helpful, too because you could see whether there was air in the lines, etc.

Silicone fuel tubing is recent R/C.

[PekkaNF]

Very likely, I was born middle 60's makes me a spring chiken to lot of you guys, but tat the work am't the grumpy old troll.

Anyway, I was googling fuel pick up lines for inspiration and found quite a few ones made from nylon. The nylon type was not mentioned, but I have PA 12 pneumatic nylon tubing, it is pretty easy to find.

I also have some pneumatic connectors, but they don't work well with uder pressure, therefore I would not use the standard fitings.

Have to remove some parts and see where all that junk would fit best.

I'm thinkking of giving a try this Oregon 07-258 (looks like it could be Tygon® F-4040-A Fuel and Lubricant Tubing)
http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=23487

Alhough it's max. temp is very much less than I would hope. But there is tight spot and I have to see if this would fit there, if it does not then nothing will. Original is straight ruber line, more of stump than anything else.

Pekka

[PekkaNF]

OK, some progress

VT and some others might be interested on this concept of fuel line unions to fuel tank:
* Use on truck/tractor tubeless tire valve assembly

See first picture, standard item has pretty much correct stem to popular 1/4" tubing, the thread part on the tip is about 7,6 mm, a tad small for standard 8 mm tubing.

Good news is that they are readily available, pretty cheap (I walkked in first tire shop and they sold two 3€ apiece) and when the air valve is taken out it is all smooth bore. They had straigh stems, 90 degree, short ones, long ones, but I liked this small angle model.

The interesting thing is that I just might be able to have the cake and eat it too, very soft fuel line might allow me to fit original tank and a quick fuel disconnect. Threre is only about 50 mm of linear distance of two fuel lines to snuggle. Rubber hose would not make that tight bend, but this Oregon fuel line just might. Only thing is that I need a bigger one than this 1/4" I have.

See  pictures two/three.

Another complication is that I can't fit very well the filter assembly I have, it is just few centimetres too tall to maintain and use it properly. Darn. I don't want to tilt it, nor mount it to protrude out of the pipe frame at all and thre should be enough space around it when maintained in dark, rain, blizard or -30C and windy.

On the other hand I want it as big as possible in filter area, because this has no transfer pump.

I'll try to fit the original tank and injection pump with new diverted fuel lines and see if it looks doable, if it does, then I'll hook them up to an external filter that has aux fuel line disconnect. That would give me max. flexibility and if I get the filter height right, there should be no problem when bleeding it.

It all would be a whole lot easier if I had fuel rubber line T with short end of 50 mm stump, I have seen them on car cooling systems, but never on fuel lines.

Plan B is to take the original tank out and make a good use of the space where that orginal tank is. For this option an fixed tank would be great. I googled last night ready made tanks and there seems to be many possible  ones in USA, but not that many in Europe.

Pekka

[Scuba1]

As far as filters go for diesel fuel. There is none better then the Racor cartridge filters. They have a clear bit at the bottom of the water separator, so you can see what is going on and you can get the insert cartridges from 4 to 10 microns. I have used them and use them on all my diesel engines. In a gravity fed system, you will want to install a ball type valve / tap, so you can shut the fuel flow when changing the insert cartridge. You can change them in under a minute with no tools. I have a dozen spares on board at all times.

At Amazone you can get an filter that is identical to the Racor 500 FG at half the price of the original. Still use the original Racor insert filters with it though. They run at around 95 $us for a dozen.

ATB

Michael

[PekkaNF]

Few experiments left...I have trouble locating reliable source/make of fuel line. I would like much PTFE lined line, but I don't need much pressure head and I would like to use hose spring clamps instead of whole lot bulkier AN fittings.

Haven't found yet UK/EU source of teflon lined non metallic braided line.

Is there a commonly available 5-8 mm ID PTFE lined fuel hose that can be used with normal fuel spring clamps?

Thanks,
Pekka

[PekkaNF]

I ordered some stuff from UK:
http://www.ssldieselparts.co.uk/

I bolted on some hoses and parts to find out if all would fit right places and easy to access for maintenance.

No hose clamps/clips yet. To keep the original tank necessitates fairly thin walled hoses. The hose from the injection pump is normal Gates NBR hose and from the tank is Tycon type PVC hose. That particular hose is 1/4" OD, but I really would need 5/16" (8 mm) ID type. But it bends pretty well. I could not use two standard NBR hoses, they simply would not fit past to each others.

Pekka

[PekkaNF]

I haven't to parts yet, looks they are not sent.

Meantime, I have been putting some fuel hose samples on HD-PE jars for immersion test. First set I'm letting them to stew on standard mineral diesel (no bio diesel components). After exactly 25 hours in about 30C looks like Gates 3225 NBR/PVC and Oregon 07-258 have no dimensional or apparent changes. However ordinary "clear" PCV and cheap "FUEL RESISTANT -15/45- made in italy" fuel lines have some noticeable dimensional changes and they feel noticeably harder than non-marinated samples.

I have cut some samples more and I'm thinking fastening them on an alternator under car hood to check if outer layer will deteriorate on ozone and/or heat.

Then I need to hung some samples out to check effect of UV, but it's pretty useless now - we got very little of sun light.

Any other ideas ot pointers for immersion time/temp. values?

Pekka

[PekkaNF]

After 6 days in standard mineral diesel oil small, but clear changes are evident.

Cheap/no brand PVC and "rubber" fuel lines are clearly harder to touch, but dimenssional changes are smaller than I anticipated.

Both brand lines Gates NBR and Oregon PVC are unchanged as far as I can tell.

My brother found one piece of interesting (fuel line) hose from his inventory. He said that he got it 10 years ago for power steering and automatic transmission. They sais that the hose has teflon lining and automotive grade exterior.

Unfortunately this hose has no manufacurer markking, only this marking:
ID 3/8 WP 300 PSI      10230705

ID 3/8" is pretty evident, but the pressure rating is funny, about 20 bar, it would hint standard compressed air hose, but are there any teflon lined compressed air hose?

Or maybe he just gave me wrong hose?

Pekka

[Will_D]

When I was rebuilding car brake systems with CuNiFer lines the "goto" flexible hose supplier was Goodridge:

http://goodridge.brakes-hoses-fittings.co.uk/

Teflon/stainlkess/anodised fittings plus you can just buy the bits and make your own as they don't need a massive hydraulic crimper like wor hydraulis fittings need!

HTH: Will

[Manxmodder]

Hi Pekka, I found this info on Gates fluoroelastomer lined fuel hoses. There should be something in their range that will suit your needs.....OZ.
 Link: http://www.gates.com/oreilly/tech_tips/PermeationResistantFuelLineHose.pdf
 

[PekkaNF]

Jep, Gates 27340 might do the trick. I have to check on that.

Pretty expensive here:
http://www.uspartsperformance.fi/gates-27314-kumiletku-32036

Price is really close to AeroFlow 200 PTFE lined fuel lines, but they need AN connectors and that is not doable on the engine end.

Found another alternative:
http://www.uspartsperformance.fi/gates-27314-kumiletku

Thanks,
Pekka