Author Topic: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build (Read 71042 times)

dbvandy · « **on:** February 16, 2011, 12:36:17 AM »

Now that I have put the Webster to rest, I am starting on the Otto from Jan Ridders plans. What a great guy! I have emailed back and forth with him and he has given me some good insight in his design process and reasoning. The plans arrived in my GMail box a few days ago, so off I go...

http://www.ridders.nu/Webpaginas/pagina_otto_viertactmotor/otto_frametekst_engels.htm

So far I have the cylinder, piston, and head cut and I am beginning to work on the valves... Afterword I will start on the uprights, shafts and 2 base plates. I have not decided on the fuel or ignition at this point, both can be determined after completion of the main engine. I have had very good success with the vapor carb, so I will probably go that route. For the ignition I am looking into the setup on the cheap little Chinese pocket bikes. It is a CDI system that you can get all the parts for for around $20 US.

Here is what I have so far: (I have altered Jans plans a bit by adding some cooling fins to the head and more fins to the cylinder)

The Cylinder is 2 inch x 2 inch 12L14 steel that I bored out (have not honed) and then I cut the fins with a 1/16 inch cut off tool skipping every thread on my lead screw. Worked really good until it snagged one time and stopped dead, thus breaking 3 teeth off the PLASTIC two speed transmission gears in the spindle (cheap Chinese lathe...) I have since replaced the gears with metal ones from LMS and do not plan on having to do that again. (one downside is that they are a bit noisy, but I hope that will wear in after running for a while...)

I tapped the head bolt holes to 6-32 for some stainless socket heads. I think they look better.

The head is 6061 T6 and is close to spec other than the fins and I am using an NGK CM-6 instead of making my own plug. I like to limit the points of failure as much as possible, these plugs should last 1000 times the life of the engine.

The underside of the head. The angle of the plug was changed to 20 degrees and could have been 25 for the shorter CM-6 NGK plug. Without a true mill, I had to use my poor mans mill and then clean it up with my dremel. The seat got a little wide and cut into the valve guide holes, but you will never see it when the guides are pressed in and the plug is capped.

The top of the head. I liked the cooling fins so much I decided to carry them up to the head. It will be functional and look good as well. I will have to cut the side back with my belt sander to clear the uprights.

Head and cylinder assembled.

Piston. I am going to use a viton o-ring to seal the piston. This worked VERY well in the Webster and I have a complete set from Harbor Freight.

more to come......

MikeA · « **Reply #1 on:** February 16, 2011, 04:58:44 AM »

Hello Doug,

Wow! You have to be one of the fastest builders ever - the progress on the Otto is great. I liked your Webster build but am really looking forward to watching this one as that Ridders design was one I was thinking of doing.

Are you converting everything from metric to imperial or building to plan sizes? I really like the way you did the cooling fins on the cylinder. Can you provide more information on the ignition system - sounds like an ideal approach and good price.

Sorry for all the questions, but you are doing many things that I'd like to incorporate into my next engine.

Looking forward to watching this one.....

Best,
Mike

DavidA · « **Reply #2 on:** February 16, 2011, 08:19:11 AM »

Those cylinder head cooling fins look quite large. Are you sure there is room for them ? They must come very close to the outer camshaft support pillar.

Dave

NickG · « **Reply #3 on:** February 16, 2011, 08:41:58 AM »

Wow, you do work fast Doug!

Never seen anybody build his otto so should be really interesting. I've not decided which I.c. to make as my first yet.

Do the cdi ignition systems need a battery. Guess the advantage is you can hide it all uunder the base and just have a little roller switch operated by the cam. You had good sucess with the magnet thing of the mini moto engine on the webster, any reason you're not going for that this time? What about Jan's piezo version? What puts you off that?

Thanks

Nick

madjackghengis · « **Reply #4 on:** February 16, 2011, 12:28:41 PM »

Hi Doug, I'm truly impressed with the rapidity of your build. Can you put me in touch with Jan Ridder, as I would like to build one of these myself, and haven't figured out how to contact him. As to the CDI system, it is self contained, with a coil, and magnet on the flyweel to provide the drive current for the module, I have one on a weed eater engine. Great job so far, I'm looking forward to seeing it run.

jack

dbvandy · « **Reply #5 on:** February 16, 2011, 09:38:50 PM »

I started the cylinder about 2 weeks ago... then broke the teeth on the transmission and had to order new bullet proof metal ones...

I am a private computer trainer and contractor, so I work on the engines when business is slow, which it always is in December and January... now that it is picking up, I will have to work at a more steady pace... (and still keep the little lady happy).

Jan is a SUPER nice guy! His email is jan.ridders@gmail.com, website http://heetgasmodelbouw.ridders.nu/index.htm. Just tell him what model of his you want to do and he will send off the plans to you. EVERYTHING is metric (great for most of you, but my American brain does not work that way) so I spend a lot of time switching back and forth... the model will be a mixture of both but will be just as shiny.

The fins will clear by about 1/8 of an inch on each side... I figure I can always put a flat on the sides if needed for clearance.

The CDI I am looking at will run on 6v, so a few AA's or a 6v power block should do it just fine. I might stay with the weedeater coil, but you have to have such high idle RPM (~1000) for a strong spark I think I might want to run the OTTO a bit slower. The CDI will do that and can all be hidden under the case. The really rewarding thing about designing on the fly is that if what you do does not work, you can try something else. Anyone can screw parts together from a kit of pre-machined parts and have a perfectly running engine, I prefer to re-purpose and adapt what I have laying around the shop.

Jan's piezo ignition uses a grill lighter that is not available in the states and I think the life span might be questionable. He sent me the pics of his design on the Atkinson engine and I think it would work but only at low RPM. Unlike Jan, I like to rev my engine until right before parts start flying off.

I have also been looking into using a hand held tazer for an ignition source... They put out a couple of million volts from a 9v battery and should be enough to drive a plug. Timing should be as easy as using a cherry switch to turn it on an off. I think I will order one off ebay tonight for 8 bucks and see if it is feasible.

Thanks for the kind words... more to come.

dbvandy · « **Reply #6 on:** February 16, 2011, 09:44:59 PM »

I worked a little on the engine on Tuesday and figured out how I am going to do the valves.

I'm using some 12L14 hex turned down to whatever drill I had that was close to 10mm for a press fit into the head.

12L14 has very high lead content and should self lubricate as well as be very strong and wear well. It turns like butter as well...

I have turned one and will work on the second and the two valves tomorrow. The key to getting a good seat is to set your compound up to 45 degrees and do not move it until all 4 parts are turned. You then have to center drill the guide and turn the seat in the same setup, then cut it off.

More to come...

Doug

NickG · « **Reply #7 on:** February 17, 2011, 09:37:46 AM »

Didn't know you could buy tazers on ebay!

madjackghengis · « **Reply #8 on:** February 17, 2011, 10:02:54 AM »

Hi Doug, thanks for putting in Jan Ridder's contact info, if you are looking for a CDI you can build, there's one available on http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_110499/article.html, which would give you the option of having a generator coil or battery, which ever you choose, and could be stand alone. I have one of those types on a small engine for a garden tiller, a very tiny tiller. Just a thought. I think I'm going to try Jan's use of the pietzo just because I've long wanted to. everything seems to be coming together there, and she ought to be running soon. Very nicely done.

cheers, jack

saw · « **Reply #9 on:** February 17, 2011, 10:19:44 AM »

Looking good.

sorveltaja · « **Reply #10 on:** February 17, 2011, 10:38:18 AM »

Nice progress, dbvandy.

Quote from: dbvandy on February 16, 2011, 09:38:50 PM

Unlike Jan, I like to rev my engine until right before parts start flying off.

Be warned, as that kind of engine isn't supposed to be fire-breathing beast. Even at 3000-4000 rpm, the engine may sound and look a lot more dangerous, than commercial, hi-tech engines at 10000 rpm.

Anyways, if you are going to rev it to the max, wear some bullet-proof jacket

.

If I may suggest, try first some traditional solution for ignition. For example, motorcycle or automotive coil, and breaker points. Simpler the better. That way you can get reliable spark, and test the engine. When you get the engine to run smoothly, then you could test other ignition options.

dbvandy · « **Reply #11 on:** February 17, 2011, 10:21:42 PM »

Both valves are done now and ready to be pressed into the head... I'm quite pleased with how they turned out, great design, Jan.... (though I did alter them a bit just to make them mine and help it breath easier....)

I turned the valve between centers with a little extra nub on the head side that will be cut off. I have no idea what type of steel it is, it was shiny and came from some old printer. I turned the stem to be .0005 smaller than the bore in the guide. the second guide was a bit tighter after drilling, so I will turn the second valve down to match the second guide.

I precut the nub when it was still between centers, then chucked it up close very lightly and faced the head to size.

Valve parts all turned are ready to be assembled. I used some e-clips I had in a kit. Springs are pre-made. I wound the ones for the Webster... done that... Ford does not wind their springs either... Notice that I cut a little relief into the stem where it will be out of the guide. This will give a little more room for the engine to breath without effecting strength.

Valve and guide assembled. I will seat the valves with valve grinding compound after they are mounted in the head and stable. There just enough play to allow the valve to seat after every cycle and the springs feel about right, not too stiff, not too soft.

Bogstandard · « **Reply #12 on:** February 18, 2011, 01:26:15 AM »

I have to admit, I have followed Jan's designs for a long time now and have come to the conclusion that not only are they very innovative, but by taking a little time over the quality of build, you usually end up with a nice running engine that looks really great when in operation.

He takes difficult designs and redesigns them so that almost anyone is able to get a running example.

I'm sure that by the care and attention you are paying to the build, you too will soon have one running.

Bogs

NickG · « **Reply #13 on:** February 18, 2011, 04:20:12 AM »

They look great Doug, the valves / seats seem to be a stumbling block for some people (or maybe that's just people that don't listen to advice of experienced people!)

Did you make the springs yourself or find some suitable ones?

Agree with Bogs, I've followed quite a few of Jan's builds and can always see where he's coming from. This one seems to be a steady runner, think he's only really having trouble with the last couple where he's trying to be really innovative. I must admit, I am tempted to do at least one of his engines as a starting point in i.c. - just not sure which one! Is the 2 stroke a cop out?!

Nick

MikeA · « **Reply #14 on:** February 18, 2011, 05:40:24 AM »

Hello Doug,

You're really cooking on this build - looking great!

Two questions; you said you converted 'some' of the measurements to imperial from metric - any specific advise on doing this?

Assume you turned the valves between centers, hence the little extra pad that was subsequently parted off - is that correct?

I'm likely going to use this thread as an instruction manual if I build the Otto.

Thanks
Mike

dbvandy · « **Reply #15 on:** February 18, 2011, 09:02:49 AM »

Quote from: MikeA on February 18, 2011, 05:40:24 AM

Two questions; you said you converted 'some' of the measurements to imperial from metric - any specific advise on doing this?

Assume you turned the valves between centers, hence the little extra pad that was subsequently parted off - is that correct?

I only have fractional drills, so some of the measurements will be converted over... most are pretty close, but it will not effect the operation in the slightest. Also, all the bar stock and plate are in fractional measurements over here on the other side of the pond so it is tough to get a 10mm plate, but easy to get .375, etc... but I left the length of the valves 42mm and turned it using metric, but still do not have a good feel on the fly for close tolerances in metric (.002 clearance is what in metric, etc...) so I bump my digital DRO and calipers back and forth.

I did turn it between centers and then parted it with a hacksaw (I know, I know... I am very careful and go slow). The valves are MASSIVE in comparison to the Webster valves. One of the guide bores must have sucked through a chip when drilling it and was about .005 larger bore, so I just turned the valve stem to match (It's not like I could go down to Auto Zone to buy a replacement anyway...)

Quote from: NickG on February 18, 2011, 04:20:12 AM

They look great Doug, the valves / seats seem to be a stumbling block for some people (or maybe that's just people that don't listen to advice of experienced people!)

Did you make the springs yourself or find some suitable ones?

Agree with Bogs, I've followed quite a few of Jan's builds and can always see where he's coming from. This one seems to be a steady runner, think he's only really having trouble with the last couple where he's trying to be really innovative. I must admit, I am tempted to do at least one of his engines as a starting point in i.c. - just not sure which one! Is the 2 stroke a cop out?!

Nick

I look at it like this: if it makes fumes and you learned along the way and you had some fun and maybe had to buy a new tool or two... then it is never a cop out. The valves are really easy to build, actually and only take a hour or so to knock out. The key is to keep the compound locked at 45 for all 4 surfaces, watch your tolerances and turn the guides and valve seats at the same time on the same setup. If you try to fix something later, you better just toss it and make another....

The springs are out of a kit of springs... I made them for the Webster from music wire... done that... and if I did not have the right ones I would have again... It was a bonus to have them pre-made...

Jan's designs are just like he describes them. Jewelery. The plans are well laid out and easy to follow and leave some room to personalize without sacrificing functionality. Some I just don't understand, like his split cylinder engine...I just don't get it... makes not logical sense to me... but still super cool and is in the queue to be built...

Thanks for the kind words... will be working on the base plates and uprights today... might just start looking like an engine soon...

Doug

dbvandy · « **Reply #16 on:** February 18, 2011, 08:25:01 PM »

Today was connecting rod and uprights day.... Wish I had a bigger band saw..... and a mill....

I blued up the connecting rod and cut it out with my band saw... the blade was a fine tooth and cut reeeaaalllyyyy slowly.

I trued it up with my small belt sander and drilled out the holes. The bearing for the crank fits an old RC car drive line that I raced 15 years ago... nice to keep those old parts laying around, you never know.

I needed some cam shaft bearings... found some...

I blued and marked up the first upright. I will match the other two to this one so that they are uniform. I cut the upright out with an angle grinder and the roughed it to pretty damn close with the 4.5 inch hand grinder. The band saw was not up to it with the blade that was in it. Time for a trip to home depot for another...

Then I got it really close with my 1x24 inch belt sander table. It is just cosmetics now, so I will wait until I start cleaning it up to get it perfect and polished.

Two uprights cut...

Starting to look like a motor... yea...

Bearing holes to be drilled tomorrow...

More to come...

Doug

saw · « **Reply #17 on:** February 19, 2011, 04:35:31 AM »

Looking fantastic.

madjackghengis · « **Reply #18 on:** February 19, 2011, 10:07:12 AM »

Hi Doug, I'm following this one closely, just to watch what you do with conversions, as I will be doing very much the same very soon. It's looking good so far, moving right along and getting to the good parts.

jack

dbvandy · « **Reply #19 on:** February 19, 2011, 04:33:13 PM »

Quote from: madjackghengis on February 19, 2011, 10:07:12 AM

Hi Doug, I'm following this one closely, just to watch what you do with conversions, as I will be doing very much the same very soon.

Jack, the only real conversions I am doing is when it come to drill sizes. The overall dimensions are super easy in metric so I am leaving them alone.

New band saw blade from Home Depot cuts like a hot knife... should go buy more...

I received my 22mm drill bit in the mail so I was able to drill the bearing holes. I pre-drilled them with my unibit (love that thing) and then opened them up to 22 mm to match my high dollar skate bearings.

The 8mm shaft came from an ink jet old printer that I had laying around just waiting to become part of the Otto.

After getting the bearings in, I pinned the uprights together with a part of the shaft and some tubing. Blacked them up and hit them with my belt sander to even them up to perfection.

Tomorrow (or later tonight maybe), I will start on laying out the base plates. Not quite sure how I am going to countersink the cylinder 5mm into the base plate (I do not have a rotary table... yet...) wish I had seen that earlier, I would have made the cylinder to mount flush and have a 5mm lip that is 2mm bigger than the bore to slide into a hole in the plate...

More to come...

Doug

Rob.Wilson · « **Reply #20 on:** February 19, 2011, 05:14:04 PM »

Hi Doug

Your sure doing a fine job of building the engine

Rob

madjackghengis · « **Reply #21 on:** February 20, 2011, 10:34:40 AM »

Hi Doug, nice job, coming right along, I guess I'd better get some skate bearings, they look cheaper than ordering them from a catalog. I will be doing a build soon, so you're getting me ready for it. I hope to follow you in using the metric numbers for most things, and converting only screws and such things as won't translate well in my shop to metric. Looking good

mad jack

dbvandy · « **Reply #22 on:** February 20, 2011, 07:41:44 PM »

yea, I like using 6-32 stainless socket heads. They are strong enough to hold things together and small enough to fit into most tight spaces.

I am at a cross roads now whether or not to move the center support over to give me more room for my massive head cooling fins and maybe a belt driven fan or to leave them "stock" and just grind off a few thou of the fins to fit the uprights.

I have already made the spacers between them and don't feel like making them again and moving the center support lessens my options for ignition.

It is a great engine to build and will look super when it is running and prettyfied....

Pics in the morning...

madjackghengis · « **Reply #23 on:** February 21, 2011, 09:43:19 AM »

Hi Doug, just remember, if you leave the fins close enough to just touch, they will help bleed off heat into the structure, and be beneficial that way. I don't know if you've run across this or not, but those stainless allen bolts are not rated for strength, normally, unless they specifically state the standard, and generally have a grade two strength. I use them a lot because stainless is a poor heat conductor, but any bolt for strength ought to be a rated bolt or screw, black finished allens are generally grade eight or nine unless otherwise specified. I broke a #4-40 stainless head bolt on my oddball flame sucker, just unscrewing it, and had only used the short end of the wrench to tighten it, initially. I'm really looking forward to your success, as it will define my own direction to some degree. Glad to see a fine job going forward.

jack

dbvandy · « **Reply #24 on:** February 21, 2011, 02:53:22 PM »

Quote from: madjackghengis on February 21, 2011, 09:43:19 AM

Hi Doug, just remember, if you leave the fins close enough to just touch, they will help bleed off heat into the structure, and be beneficial that way. I don't know if you've run across this or not, but those stainless allen bolts are not rated for strength, normally, unless they specifically state the standard, and generally have a grade two strength. I use them a lot because stainless is a poor heat conductor, but any bolt for strength ought to be a rated bolt or screw, black finished allens are generally grade eight or nine unless otherwise specified. I broke a #4-40 stainless head bolt on my oddball flame sucker, just unscrewing it, and had only used the short end of the wrench to tighten it, initially. I'm really looking forward to your success, as it will define my own direction to some degree. Glad to see a fine job going forward. jack

according to the mfg. these bolts are grade 3, so that should be far more than enough to hold these engines together. And most of the loads are not shear anyway, so they will be more than more enough... The Webster called for 4-40's and some 2-56's... I used the 4-40's on the intake block, but had enough meat to use the 6-32's everywhere else. I did use 1/4-20s in a few places like the flywheel and tank mount.

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Author Topic: Jan Ridders Otto 4 stroke build (Read 71042 times)

Rob.Wilson