Author Topic: BMW V8 dry sump from billet  (Read 182166 times)

Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2010, 05:18:14 AM »
This is quite a project, Ade, and quite interesting.  You had to jump through a few hoops to get that huge hunk
of al pared down.  Looks like it's going along well!  By the time you get done, you're going to be some kind of
"Lord of the Swarf".

Oh, I've got a LONG way to go before I can claim any titles that fancy... So far, I think I can probably manage Aluminium Apprentice - at best...

Quote
BTW, I checked out your clock in the pics of your earlier post.  It took 25 minutes, mister!  When everyone else
can see the time, you really are on the clock
: )

Aha, I see you spotted my deliberate mistake! (ahem) This is probably why I'm late whenever I have to go somewhere...

Thanks for your kind words  :thumbup:
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline HS93

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2010, 11:47:19 AM »
are you putting finns on the bottom to help cooling ?

peter
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Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2010, 11:22:50 AM »
Hi Peter,

I've certainly considered fins, but it's not yet cast in stone (or, indeed, aluminium...). The engine has what appears to be a very efficient oil-to-water cooler embedded in the "V", there's no separate airflow oil cooler; so it may not be necessary in the long run. However, if it turns out that fins would look good, then I'll probably do some :)

Now, there's no more metal carving progress, but I finally bullied Windows MovieMaker into working for long enough to create the damn video... Unfortunately, my choice of audio file means it's not available in Germany (!) - so if you're in Germany, send me a PM & I'll send you a link to a downloadable version.



Sorry it's a bit blurred, I think it's had a few too many post-processing steps...
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 05:12:00 PM by AdeV »
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline DMIOM

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2010, 11:44:12 AM »
Nice one  :clap:   and a very suitable soundtrack - made you look a little like this  :ddb:

I know the application of "Feed rate over-ride" on my CNC - but now I've seen another version !

And I notice you carefully kept the clock out of shot on this clip - if that lot only took 2mins & 5 seconds then what were you doing for the other 20 or 25 minutes before - having a  :coffee: ?

Dave
« Last Edit: February 15, 2010, 05:57:46 PM by DMIOM »

Offline Bernd

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2010, 08:13:41 PM »
Ade,

Nice video. I see your quite the fast worker.  :lol:

I've heard that sound track before. I thought it was an American thing. Can't place the name right now though.

Bernd
You can't fix "STUPID".

Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2010, 08:49:11 PM »
Dave - the clock is, quite accidentally honest, out of sight on the wall to the left of shot... But it's a good job it wasn't in view, as you'd be able to see the cuts then! (I edited out the bit where I attacked the last bit with a hacksaw, it was taking too long so I gave up I used the mill!

Bernd - the soundtrack is called "Yakkity Sax" by Boots Randolph, but it's probably better known both here & in the US as the theme to The Benny Hill Show: http://www.televisiontunes.com/Benny_Hill_Show.html Which is, of course, why I chose it - as most (all?) of his shows ended up with some speeded-up film.

Be warned, that link can waste hours of your day if you're not careful!
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline Bernd

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2010, 09:58:55 AM »
Ade,

Thanks for the memories. They had the Benny Hill shown on over here for a short time. I realy loved that show. That song was also played on the radio over here back in the 60's and 70's. It all came back to me when I saw the name Boots Randolph.

Bernd
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Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2010, 11:12:38 AM »
...

I've heard that sound track before. I thought it was an American thing. Can't place the name right now though.

Bernd

Benny Hill maybe??

Eric
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Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2010, 06:46:51 PM »
Not a lot new today... I'm making machinable wax as fast as I can go (~3kg tonight :)), so I can prototype the sump in 1:1 scale.

Fortunately, a decent amount of wax showed up today; which is lucky. In the picture, it's sitting inside the mould that - once I've dissolved lots of freezer bags in it - it will have to fill (to a depth of ~3", to account for shrinkage). That's a lot of wax... The bag holds 25kg, and cost just shy of £50 delivered:



And the other picture is the drillbit for drilling out the oil channels. It's hard to get a sense of scale for the thing - especially given the number of truly awesome builds we see on this site where, due to excellent surface finishes, what looks like quite a big engine in a photo turns out to be the size of a matchbox. So suffice it to say; the flutes run for some 600mm (over 2ft), then there's a spare couple of inches before the morse taper. It is a humongous drill bit! Only 5/8" diameter, though, so quite dainty with it...

It'll be a few days before I can test it, however, as the step pulley in the mill is away for some new bearings, so - pardon the pun - you'll have to bear [groan] with me.
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline No1_sonuk

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2010, 07:58:35 PM »
WOW!  That is a BIG drill bit.

Offline Dean W

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2010, 09:07:37 PM »
Well, all right, Ade, if you're not the "Lord of the Swarf", how about the "Benny Hill of the Bridgeport". 

I remember those shows here in the states.  Seemed like every show ended with a bunch of cops or hot young ladies chasing him around with Yakkity Sax as the cover music.

Keep up the good, fast work.

Dean
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Offline madjackghengis

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #36 on: February 27, 2010, 09:02:07 AM »
Hi AdeV, I've run into that sort of problem before of a great deal on a huge piece of metal, and having to cut it with less than ideal tools.  I've got a couple of pieces of inch and three quarters mild steel I use for various projects, two pieces each about 150 Kg, and I found the fastest way to cut this is with what we call a "saw's all", which, if you are not familiar with it, basically an industrial strength jig saw which will handle a blade eight or ten inches long if necessary.  It works right nice on almost anything using wax based blade lubricant, and I've cut a whole lot of ali with it as well, as I have lots of half inch to two inch plate I've had to cut from time to time.  For the thick steel, I even use a coarse wood blade say about five or six teeth per inch, as it clears the swarf much faster than finer tooth counts.
     I've got to say, that's quite an ambitious project you've got going there, I could almost cry seeing that huge piece of aluminium cut up, but you can't make an omlet without cracking a few eggs.  I'm looking forward to the end result.
Mad Jack :headbang:

Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2010, 11:30:58 AM »
Hi Mad Jack - that sounds like a ferocious piece of kit.... I'll have to look out for one  :D

I can't believe it's been 10 days since I did anything on this project, but obviously that's how long the wax interlude has taken.... Last night I finally finished pouring; the last bit being to fill the mould where the edges had shrunk away somewhat. So, today, this is what we start with:



The thing on top just directs the pour down the edges, as required. As I'd hoped the block slipped out of the mould as sweet as you like. The only bummer is, a couple of the pieces of wood had some kind of plastic coating, which has partially got itself into the wax. As a result, I may not be able to do the "wings" portion of the sump to full width, in this wax version. Not to worry....



You can see where last night's pour has worked its way underneath the block, such is the extent of the shrinkage. The lines "drawn" on the wax have actually transferred from the mould - cool :)

So: Load it on the mill, lob the biggest cutter I have in (the 2" shell mill), and prepare to flatten each side:



The wedges underneath are just there to keep it roughly level, until I've got enough flat on one side to turn it over & do the other side.



Some time later:



The mould now contains the swarf that's come off the block. That'll melt down into new wax, one day...

Next up, mill one of the ends flat, so we have a reference side. This should be - pretty much - square with the bottom side, in this picture:



As you can see, there's a lot of overhang. This is one big lump of wax... (approx. 18kg out of the mould; approx. 15kg at this stage). The edge being milled:



You can really take liberties with this stuff: That's a 0.040" climb cut going on, and it just takes it. I could probably have cut a lot deeper...

So, this is as far as I got today:





Full day in the workshop tomorrow, I should have that lump squared off completely & have made a start on the main cutting operations by tomorrow.

 :thumbup:
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline Dean W

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2010, 08:49:54 PM »
It sure does look like it mills nice, Ade.  I'm enjoying this thread a lot, and even learning things, (how 'bout that!).

I wonder, when you collect all the shavings from the wax do you have to worry much about foreign matter?  Will it just melt down and have all the junk bits sink to the bottom, or do you have to do some kind of straining process?

Thanks!

Dean
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Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2010, 12:15:39 PM »
Dean - I'm glad you're enjoying it; and heck, if I'm showing people new tricks already, well - it must be dumb luck....  :thumbup:

So, this morning's first job was to get the block on the mill ready to cut a second edge. I wanted it square with the first machined edge - no particular reason at this stage, except that it's good practice. So, I used an edge finder along the first edge to get it dead square with the mill. Don't ask me why I used an edge finder - I thought I was being clever. Turns out I was just lucky - trying to line the next edge up with the same method just took ages & drove me spare; so I ended up using a dial indicator, like I should have done this time!




Once squared up, I lined up with one of my marking out lines (+ a bit of cock-up space), and started cutting. This next shot should look familiar....:



Easy come, easy go; that's when I found the crack in the wax (see the Wax thread). But worse still, when I came to put the dial indicator into the chuck, to dial the other side of the block in - nightmare; the drawbar simply wouldn't tighten the chuck up! It didn't matter how murder tight I went, there was about 1/16th vertical play in the chuck.  :scratch: So, a small diversion. As the drawbar was, for some reason, suddenly too long for the mill (possibly, I lost a washer somewhere; I've had the drawbar out a few times due to one of the threads getting chewed up), I needed a washer. Or, to put that another way, it's time to play on the lathe!

Chucked up a piece of 2" ali I happened to have cut off to a respectable length. Centre drilled, drilled progressively to 1/2" (fits over the drawbar nicely), then turned down the outer diameter to around 0.875" (about the same size as the drawbar head):



Then, using my special "parting off" tool, cut the spacer away from the parent:




And presto, a new drawbar spacer:



Worked a treat  :)

So, finally, I could dial the block in & finish the last bit of squaring up:




Next job (which starts now): Finding a reference point & drilling some holes....
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #40 on: February 28, 2010, 05:22:45 PM »
Right, where were we?

OK - the block is now on the mill, and dialled in true. First job, then, is to measure the engine up. I've decided to start with the fixing holes, as they're easy:



There's 28 of them all told - 10 per side and 4 each on the front & end. I have to switch to metric now, this being a German engine. I can use the fact that they'd probably not use TOO many odd measures. So having located the first hole at 48mm in, the second at 57.5mm further along  :scratch: I wasn't wrong, though, it really was 57.5mm...

So, the moment of truth.... I've indicated in the corner, added 50% of the excess space (about 4mm all round), used the DRO to navigate to the first hole position, and am about to drill...



Note the real-life crap-o-cad, complete with co-ordinate readout :D Although I'm not relying on the layout drawn on the wax itself, it's gratifying to note that the hole is within the boundary of the splodge I drew on the the wax, through the gasket.

So, a little later on:



All holes (even the ones under the clamps which, you may have noted have moved (doh!)... I had to move the left-hand one again before I finished for the day...

Now, look back at the bottom of engine picture: There's 9 holes near the rim of the sump - 4 at the top, 5 on the bottom. These are the oil drains from the heads, and in use have oil pouring out of them (apparently). In the original sump, there were two compartments; the head oil went to the bottom compartment, through those holes; the oil underneath the con-rods went a different way. Although all of the oil in this sump is heading to the same place, I'll try to keep them as separate as possible. So; I decided to cut the start of a channel into the sump, at each hole. This will help guide the oil into the drains, without letting it all splash about under the con-rods.

So, using the nearest end mill I have to 18mm (a 3/4"!  :clap:), I plunged 18mm at each place. The sump gasket could then be fitted to the block to check for alignment and location of the holes. And, I'm well chuffed to say, they're all in the right place!



You'll notice I've also milled out a shallow pocket in the centre; this is where the main sump will slope down towards the drain holes.


So, there you go. Finally, I'm making engineering swarf, instead of just parting off swarf... And it feels good!  :headbang:

Tomorrow: Mostly measuring and planning I suspect. I need to make a jig so I can tell how far out of the bottom of the engine the con-rods protrude at their lowest point, to make absolutely sure I build enough clearance in (but, at the same time, I want as little clearance as possible so I can keep the profile of the sump as low as possible; and, hence, the weight).
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2010, 04:47:08 PM »
OK, some more progress today.... First job was to work out the clearances for the conrods. So, using a wax offcut, I roughly milled out a segment - with many trial fits to the engine. Eventually, the hole was big enough:



This was then measured, and a second piece marked out & cut with a bandsaw, just to verify that my measurements were, in fact, sound:




That white tape is holding the wax together; it broke at a boundary between two pours... So far, the main block is behaving itself very well, which is a relief.

So.. clearances sorted out, it was time to get milling. The angle plate (which is needed later) is mounted & squared up first, then the block is mounted & squared on the angle plate. Thus:



In the pic, I'm about to locate my reference point (the top right-hand corner, as you look at the picture), from which all subsequent measurements and co-ordinates are taken. So, about an hour later (I was being cautious....):



They're milled 25mm deep, 75mm wide as required. The bits in between each pocket are where the bearing journals live, and will be left there for strength. So now it's time to mill out the first angled bit. Thus, it's time to brush off my old Trig knowledge, and get head scratching  :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:



Most of you will probably be immediately familiar with all of that. The only bit I'll explain (just in case, if by the remotest chance, my old school Maths teacher ever sees this: Thanks Mr Parry!) is SOHCAHTOA (pronounced "soccah toe ah"). It means, simply: Sine=Opposite over Hypotenuse, Cosine = Adjacent over Hypotenuse, Tangent = Opposite over Adjacent; I've always found it to be a dead handy aide memoire when messing around with triangles.

So, on with the show. 33.7 degrees the doctor called for, so we set up the angle plate:


The small spanner there is used to loosen & tighten the angle plate bolts. Did I mention I'm doing this in miniature? That spanner is just 4" long...  :lol:

So, after a little while:



The actual cutting operation was done largely by look & feel; when I thought the remaining lip looked "about right", I stopped cutting. The coordinates have been noted, so when I come to do the real aluminium sump, I should just be able to crack right on into it, without worrying about where to start & stop cuts.

Last job for today was to flip the piece over and cut the other angle. About 40 minutes of the next hour were spent setting up:
  • Reset angle plate to flat
  • Turn piece around
  • Dial in
  • Find reference point & reset DRO
  • Set angle

After that, the cut went on nice & easy. Because I used the same reference point, all my X-axis numbers were the same (with the sign reversed; so positive instead of negative); the Y-axis was also mirrored, but somewhat differently... In fact, I ended up with slightly different offsets; but I think I got the first ones in slightly the wrong place, as there's more of a lip on the first cuts compared to the second.

So, as it stands now:


Next job: Figure out where the channels for each main oil drain (the holes cut yesterday) are going to go, and how deep they need to go to pick up the main oil channels. And, speaking of which, the time draws ever closer when I'm going to have to break out that big drill.......


Watch this space  :dremel:
Cheers!
Ade.
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Offline CrewCab

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2010, 05:56:56 PM »
Looking good Ade  :thumbup: .......... the way it's going you could have gone straight to the ali and dispensed with the wax ......... though perhaps that may change when you break out the big drill  :dremel: ............. good luck and keep posting  :beer:

CC

Offline Dean W

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2010, 08:11:51 PM »
Watching..  Watching.
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Offline Brass_Machine

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2010, 08:21:05 PM »
Pretty cool. Nice skills too!

Eric
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Offline Bernd

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #45 on: March 01, 2010, 09:18:03 PM »
Pretty darn good for 3 hours of work, or did you reset that red clock every time you took a picture?  :lol:

I'm impressed with your work. Got a bit of an idea. Pour molding plaster around that piece of wax. Burn out the wax and make an investment casting that can be used as a mold for making many. Never know who else might want one.

Bernd
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Offline Darren

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2010, 03:47:21 AM »
Maths... Arggg .... I'm sure we did it and I got the pass .. but I have no idea what you are on about  :doh:

Looking good there ....  :clap:
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Offline Stilldrillin

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2010, 03:59:30 AM »
Maths... Arggg .... I'm sure we did it and I got the pass .. but I have no idea what you are on about  :doh:

Looking good there ....  :clap:

Me too!

I seem to remember sinophyp, cosadip, tanopadge.........  :thumbup:


Ade..... That`s looking very good!  :thumbup:

David D
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Still modifying bits of metal... Occasionally, making an improvement!

Offline andyf

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2010, 04:13:16 AM »
I too am a bit of a duffer when it comes to trig  :scratch: :scratch:. Trouble was that my mother tried to drum the elements into me before we did it at school, and she used different 1920's notation - base, perpendicular and hypotenuse. Some Boys Have Curly Brown Hair Till Painted Black had something to do with it, but only served to confuse me when we were taught something different at school.

Now, I do it the easy way, using the triangle calculators on here (some of the others can also come in useful):

http://www.cleavebooks.co.uk/scol/index.htm

Andy
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I've cut the end off it twice, but it's still too short

Offline AdeV

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Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2010, 05:20:14 AM »
Thanks chaps, for your kind words, they are much appreciated...

CrewCab - I wouldn't have dared go straight for the Ali, although as you say, these first operations have gone OK so far. Of course, it helps that I can abuse the wax mercilessly - most of the cuts I've taken have been full depth & full width right from the get go; obviously, I won't be able to push the aluminium that hard. On the other hand, the aluminium shouldn't bulge under clamping pressure, which ought to make dialling in a damn sight easier...

Bernd - Not such a bad idea... but I think, with all the hassles of casting (making the mould bigger to account for shrinkage, actually doing the casting, and so on) I think I'll stick to making them out of billet. For whatever reason, add the word "billet" to anyting in the UK & suddenly it gets a whole lot more expensive.... I'm definitely considering making these for sale, provided I can get the machining time down to reasonable levels (which will almost certainly involve making jigs -  :proj:) in the near future.

Maths & trig - if you want, I'm happy to do a detailed write-up on the maths of setting your angles; but it's all high school stuff, I ran out of maths ability about 1/2 way through my A-levels (integration.... uck). Let me know if you do...
Cheers!
Ade.
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