Experiences, thoughts and rants about using Linux as a newbie after Windows

[sorveltaja]

I've installed Mint Mate on my pc, so for a change, hopefully less terminal usage. It has its own software- and driver manager, making installing of software like Nvidia driver and Wine rather simple and straightforward.

Downsides of using software manager in Mint Mate:

- it has a limited selection of 'curated' list of apps

- when selecting "show installed applications", it shows only the ones the user has installed.
         -  -  -   
When rebooting/shutting down, there is 10 seconds or longer delay - like some app or process was hanging on the background. It's not just my system; some other Mint users have this issue as well. One solution works in some cases, another works, again in some other cases and so on.

Quick and dirty (although not necessarily convenient) way to circumvent that is to add 'custom application launcher' button to panel, having command 'reboot'. It doesn't hesitate, it reboots immediately.  Same procedure can be used to add also a  shutdown button, if needed.

[BillTodd]

I've just fired up win11 for the first time in months . It feels so slow compared to the Kubuntu I normally use on the same machine.  I just wanted to print a booklet usng acrobat ,but it had just started an update . after many many minutes , I was able to open acrobat only to be faced with pop-ups for AI slop and automated crap. It's unuseable!

I rebooted to linux.

[sorveltaja]

I've just fired up win11 for the first time in months . It feels so slow compared to the Kubuntu I normally use on the same machine.  I just wanted to print a booklet usng acrobat ,but it had just started an update . after many many minutes , I was able to open acrobat only to be faced with pop-ups for AI slop and automated crap. It's unuseable!

I rebooted to linux.

Yes, Win11 is about everything that Windows should not be. Youtubers who show how to strip out the AI crap and other bloat, to make it more usable, get strikes to their channels.

These are strange times; large companies like Microsoft - they seem to be doing their best to force-feed features that are restrictive and whatnot, perhaps to show that they still have final say, of what the consumers 'want'.

Such a powerful entity - one doesn't have to be a fortune-teller to see that it continues using same tactics over and over. By blindly doing that, it has managed to create resistance against itself.
That's probably the most positive thing it has successfully achieved.

For Windows users looking for alternatives, be it downgrading to Win10 to support their not so latest hardware, which Win11 makes obsolete anyway - or looking out to test Linux - it's such a jungle out there.

What comes to Linux, there isn't such thing as "best Linux distro for new users", as many Linux users (on Youtube) seem to presume. If this or that distro works for them, that's fine, but why assume that new users see it like they do.

Besides that, there are Linux users (some pretty advanced), who have made tutorials in more understandable, plain language.  I wish I could put out some examples with links, but it's so vast subject to cover every aspect.

[sorveltaja]

And when considering installing other 'system' apps, they may well drag whole DE with them, so it's worth looking at what kind of dependencies they may have

So that seems to be happening especially with Gnome-based apps. If one prefers to use other desktop environment (DE) like KDE, Cinnamon or XFCE, and wants to install a simple text editor, and reboots the system - boom - then Gnome may well be the new default DE, without informing about it. 

Again, better versed Lunduke's take on getting "Gnomed" (~10 min):  _https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suxMvUuFDMw

Not exactly same or only Gnome-related, but similar thing happens, for example, when installing a file manager. It pulls Bluetooth support/components with it as well.
I understand that it might be needed for devices like BT printers, but for those of us that doesn't have/use Bluetooth, it's totally unnecessary bloat.

If the user then wants to remove those Bluetooth components, that file manager gets removed with it also.

From Windows user's perspective, what I don't quite understand about Linux world is forced dependencies (if that's the correct term).

In the end, a thing that I hadn't noticed until recently - it's worth checking, if the firewall is installed and enabled. I guess on most popular desktop distros it is, but at least on Debian it doesn't seem to be installed out of the box. One option is to use ufw (Uncomplicated Firewall). In that case, to see if it's installed, enter command using terminal:

Code: [Select]

sudo ufw status
If the result is:

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sudo: ufw: command not found
then to install and enable it in one go:

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sudo apt install ufw
sudo ufw enable
Resulting message verifies it's up and running:

Code: [Select]

Firewall is active and enabled on system startup

[vtsteam]

"a text editor" "a file manager" "Linux world is forced dependencies"

Lot of generalizations there. There are plenty of text editors that don't force Gnome to become the default DE, etc. etc. and there is no one "Linux world.

Most everything in any flavor of a linux OS, and most every program usable by the hundreds of different linux systems is compiled, with the compiling persons' personal preferences for options, and dependencies.

So somebody thought that the file manager you tried out as a binary (and did not compile yourself) should be built with a capability of using bluetooth for file transfers. Why is that a problem with the "Linux World?"

Naturally nothing out there is going to exactly suit what you want personally down to the last detail. If you don't like what options were included by somebody else as a program, just compile it without them.

The person or persons whose binary you tried were volunteers doing the work and offering it to the public without charge. Hey, likewise you can invest time and effort to change a program whose features you don't like into whatever you want. That's one basic reason for open source code.

I would also like to suggest that the big Linuxes you are generally referring to do try to add as many features and options as possible into complex "user friendly" DEs, and it's not surprising that they are heavily weighted, or that when a program is added, it pulls in massive loads of components for the DE that program was designed for, if you are trying to load it into a different DE.

The flip side of that coin is that a stripped down minimal non-big-time linux system will require some building up to whatever it is you desire in a fledged out OS, and that takes technical understanding which is not as "linux beginner" oriented.

This is just reality -- either people make lots of choices for you and give you a big one-size fits-all system, or you make choices for yourself, which at a minimum requires knowledge of how to do that, and will inevitably require learning and effort.

[sorveltaja]

Good points. But no, I'm not saying that "Linux world" has problems. I'm rather attempting to understand and tell about things that I have experienced with Linux, and how differently it works when compared to Windows, the way I see it at this point.

I'm not blaming this or that Linux component of having whatever dependencies. Again, it's more about finding out how that stuff works, and writing down my take on it, for possible readers, who might want to start experimenting with their Linux system.  As should be obvious by now, I'm not pretending to be all-knowing, or too well versed on these subjects; if any reader is more experienced, and knows a better way to verbalize these things, it's more than welcome to explain/clarify things in this thread.

But strong emotional response(s) to seemingly stupid ways, that potential new Linux users tell about issues they don't fully understand - why is that so common phenomenon all around the net? If this thread gets any visibility on the net, what a better way to express things than to get to bare-bones - of how I, as a newish Linux user doing all kinds of mistakes, and attempting to look for solutions and write about them?

Well, whatever the case is, I'm tired of repeating myself here, especially what I wrote before:   

Again, as many of us know, Linux discussions can and probably will get pretty heated. I certainly hope that it doesn't have to happen here, on this forum.

[vtsteam]

Well, Sorveltaja, a good way to avoid that kind of thing, though I don't agree that it is occurring so far, is not to frame one's own comments as "rants" per the thread title, since it sets up that expectation.
Maybe also express difficulties in the thread as requests for explanations from others (if you want them) rather than enlarging to  characteristics of a Linux world.

"From Windows user's perspective, what I don't quite understand about Linux world is forced dependencies ... "

[sorveltaja]

I agree that word 'rant' may not be a proper term to use in this context - at least now I know better.

[vtsteam]

Great, and I appreciate what you are doing, and have a better understanding of what you are trying to say. 

Linux is used as such a broad term these days (for all of us) that it's hard to talk about it as a thing. Originally, and technically it was an open source adaptation of Unix in the form of a kernel for the operating system.

Nowadays, what most people mean by Linux is the operating system plus accessories, languages, desktop environments and application programs rolled into named operating systems, like Debian, Ubuntu, Mint, Red Hat, among  the best known. And many others, Arch, Slackware, Puppy, among a myriad of others, and the one I now use, EasyOS.

About the only thing one can say they have in common is the Linux kernel, which is not even a desktop environment, but a set of primitives usable in terminal. Because Linux is based on Unix, it is a multi-user system oriented towards institutional infrastructure use with many lower privileged users and groups with an extensive permissions structure, and a separate class of administrators who we would normally associate with an IT department.

What has developed since then are many different ideas about what graphical personal computer operating systems should look like, how they should behave, what applications should be included with them out-of-the-box, and what optional programs they should be capable of adding (ie what program repositories they should be able to access).

The way all of the myriad programs and code developed to support this vast set of systems and possibilities was through individuals and groups of people volunteering their time to A.) reverse engineer computers and hardware to develop drivers for them (since almost no hardware mfrs. provided drivers for linux systems). and B.) create systems where blocks of code could be re-used and re-combined into more and more sophisticated applications. To enable this kind of re-use, the concept of dependencies and open-source software was essential.



 

[sorveltaja]

Thanks for clarifying these subjects .

To get back to testing, I've been using Mint Mate for several weeks, and one thing I've been trying to track/trace is, what causes second long freezes every few minutes or so, when watching Youtube videos using Brave.

I know this is nitpicking, but it's kind of an annoyance. I don't remember that happening in Pop OS (which uses Gnome as a default DE), so perhaps it's more like distro or DE (desktop environment) -related component thing.

So I assume, that there are some background service(s), which can't be handled through Mate's control center --> startup applications. They simply aren't shown there. But it feels like there's timer-related or intermittent service(s) using certain resources with high priority,  causing the hiccups.

To get a list of services, that use timer, can be seen by entering command:

systemctl list-timers --all

In my current system, there's 12 of them:

motd-news.timer                         motd-news.service
fwupd-refresh.timer                    fwupd-refresh.service
anacron.timer                             anacron.service
apt-daily.timer                            apt-daily.service
dpkg-db-backup.timer                dpkg-db-backup.service
logrotate.timer                           logrotate.service
an-db.timer                                man-db.service
plocate-updatedb.timer              plocate-updatedb.service
apt-daily-upgrade.timer             apt-daily-upgrade.service
systemd-tmpfiles-clean.timer    systemd-tmpfiles-clean.service
e2scrub_all.timer                      e2scrub_all.service
strim.timer                                fstrim.service

To get started, one on the top, 'motd-news.timer', is described as "'MOTD ? Message of the Day. "motd-news" is a package that makes a call periodically to Canonical servers to get updated news for support and informational purposes."
 
Source: https://canonical.com/legal/motd

On that page is also instruction of how to disable that service, so I assume it's safe to do so.

...But the file mentioned in that page doesn't exist in my current system at all, so I created it, adding entry 'ENABLED=0 to it, and rebooted, but that service was still there. Not sure why it doesn't work in this distro/DE. Maybe it does with 'bigger' Ubuntu based distros?

Anyway, alternative way to disable it (and service related to it), is to enter commands:

sudo systemctl disable motd-news.service
sudo systemctl disable motd-news.timer

And to make sure that they don't get automatically triggered/started again, is by masking them:

sudo systemctl mask motd-news.service
sudo systemctl mask motd-news.timer

Reboot to apply the changes.

We'll see how that goes.

[vtsteam]

So the strengths of operating systems based around a Linux core are that basically anyone who wants to can come out with their "Linux" and the same for their applications. But it also has a negative effect of creating a Babel of "Linuxs" and it is difficult to know which one will suit a person best -- especially without trying a bunch of them. But to do that, they may be different enough that each requires relearning .

The other problem is that many of these operating systems want to be installed onto hard drive in order to experience them at their full speed and capabilities. While some have so called "liveCDs" or live versions which are run-able without installation, they don't give an adequate impression of the installed version.

One alternative to full installation is to try to run a particular Linux OS in a virtual machine on another system -- a Windows version, for instance. But this often leads to other problems in speed, and usability, particularly if access to ports or other protected primary OS facilities are required. Also it's often tedious to set up and/or run a VM, and they can take up a LOT of space on HD.

A third possibility are some of the very few OSs that can be dual booted beside an existing Windows installation, and are compact enough not to seriously diminish HD space. Puppy Linux (which also comes in a variety of named OS's -- adding even more confusion) is designed to take up minimal space for the entire OS, plus applications (generally a gigabyte or less, total).

Other than the bare OS, all storage for additional applications and data can fit into a single folder within the Windows partition. Puppy linuxs typically are small enough to be loaded entirely into RAM at boot time, including applications. This allows the OS to run extremely fast, since there are greatly reduced disk accesses.

The fourth possibility is an offshoot of Puppy linux called EasyOS -- which is what I use. This OS is also extremely compact, and can be installed like Puppy Linux, beside an existing Windows installation. But the alternative that it is actually designed to work very well with is to run entirely off of a thumbdrive, without even needing the system's HD.

This makes it portable between computers. Everything is on the thumbdrive (unless you choose to store something on the HD). In effect the thumbdrive is the computer, and the actual computer is just transparent hardware that runs it.

Naturally, the faster higher quality thumbdrive will run this OS faster, but remember that the OS is generally loaded entirely into RAM during a session, so it runs at RAM speeds. The only noticeable reduction in its speed for a slower thumbdrive is while booting, or saving back to the drive at the end of the session, or as commanded during the session.

Now, yes it IS possible to install this OS on an HD, and that's what I have because that's all I use, and I want absolute top speed booting or leaving.  And it is truly fast in every aspect on this recent laptop of mine.

Okay so enough about that. Back to Linux based OSs in general.

Applications. Most Linux applications were until a few years ago compiled by the developers of each separate OS to suit their OS (and their taste). Thus applications for one variety of Linux OS probably wouldn't work in a different variety. However things began to consolidate back then when Ubuntu, which had for a long time compiled it's own programs and maintained repositories of custom compiled apps, switched over to using Debian applications and package management. This saved a huge amount of similar but separate effort.

Likewise some of the OSs I'm familiar with in the Puppy Linux family switched over from using first only homebrewed programs to later some Slackware compatibility, and then Ubuntu, and finally Debian apps. But there are still many Puppy-relates OSs that use other OS's repositories and apps. EasyOS presently uses Devuan apps -- Devuan is a fork of Debian.

Anyway, again, Linux is a huge subject if talking about desktop operating systems, and it is almost impossible to quantify. But it is possible to talk about as a history, and that provides some explanation of what it means. It's very different than Windows or MacOS or Android because each of those is a single entity main tained by a single company

[vtsteam]

Sorry Sorveltaja, I cross posted the above without seeing yours first -- I was just continuing talking about Linux based operating systems -- not ignoring your questions.

I really don't know why Brave is not working properly in Mint OS. The only place that can help is probably a Mint OS forum, where people can test out using their similar OS and Brave. The variables are 1.) your hardware with MintOS 2,) Mint OS with Brave or 3.) a bug in Brave. Usually takes others to help figure that kind of thing out.

EDIT: I originally mistakenly wrote PopOS above instead of MintOS -- now corrected.

Also, wow, that's a LOT of timers. But not totally surprising. Mint is (or was) based on Ubuntu, and promoted as an even more user-friendly OS. So my old and possibly wrong impression of it is, that it might be even "bigger" then Ubuntu, in terms of stuff running and user stuff added on. But I'm really not familiar with it enough to really say.