Author Topic: building a Duclos "flame sucker"  (Read 15927 times)

Offline madjackghengis

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building a Duclos "flame sucker"
« on: August 13, 2010, 12:52:44 PM »
This is an odd log, I built this engine when it was published in Projects in Metal in 92, spent a few months building it in between jobs, and being totally frustrated when it would not even attempt to run, when I "finished" it.  Much of the original design was customised, I used a miniature ball bearing instead of a cut wheel for a cam follower, I put an identical bearing in the big end of the rod, rather than a sleeve and aluminum bearing on the steel sleeve, and I only noticed I had cut off the cylinder too short for head fins after it was cut off, but decided to go with it anyway.
   For almost twenty years, I've fooled around with it on occasion, lost it, found it, played with it, yet never accomplished anything of note.  When I started my build log on the radial engine I am building, I saw a number of "flame suckers" of varying design, built and running on this forum, and you have to go to Jim's build log to see my initial reaction and my determination to make this seemingly simple engine run.  Then someone posted a very similar version to mine running on that log and further motivated me.  I opened this log in order to stop stealing space on Jim's, because it ended up entailing a bit more work than I first supposed.  I started with a complete dissassembly, and laying all the parts on the magazine, comparing outlines and profiles with the pictures, and noticed my cam profile was substantially different.  I did not use a rotary table, as I didn't have one, to generate the cam, and in translating the work to a four jaw chuck, failed to properly assess the issue of radius versus diameter, and this was the reason for the vastly different cam shape

you can see the difference in the cam profiles here

this is the old crank/cam set next to the blank new cam with the crank not yet cut and finished.
After finishing the crank/cam, and replacing the old one, I noted a distinct difference in tone and the feel of the engine, but it still would not even attempt to run, so I turned a new piston, better fit, better compression/vacuum, but still no life.  I decided the cylinder should be right, head fins might well be "that little bit" which makes or breaks.

going back to the plans, the new cylinder was made and turned out a much better fit, tighter clearances, but still fully free movement with the new piston.  I deliberately made the head fins longer than called for, figuring it couldn't hurt.

cutting the fins with a .062 slitting saw, 3/16ths deep, the fins about .055 thick

with an 1/8th in end mill, cutting the valve port in the side face of the cylinder, I didn't get it perfectly at the top of the bore, and used a second cutter, a ball mill same diameter, to provide a full opening which worked like a charm.

I made a burner pretty much exactly as shown in the original, and got the flame where it needed to be without blocking it up or holding it, neither of which were much fun.

the old parts laid out, the new parts installed, this does not show milling off about fifty thousandths from the face of the brass valve plate, lightening the load considerably, unfortunately, that was about five thousands too much, as I slit from the opposite side for the valve spring to seat in, and milled into the cut.  I fluxed and soldered the face of the valve, and then filed and sanded off all the solder except that which was in the tiny slit, and got a good sounding compression and firm "pop" from the suction, which had disappeared as the slit appeared.  This only lasted for a short time, and I wore through the solder with the end of the spring, and suddenly lost compression and pop.  I almost made a new valve, but ran across a piece of .012 brass sheet, a piece about ten percent bigger than the valve its self, and decided that was a sign, so I filed it flat on both sides, tinned one side, put flux on the valve, and laid it in the center of the piece of sheet with a tiny bit of tinning showing on all sides, and put the torch flame to it for just a few seconds, getting a visible drop in the valve as it cleaved right up to the sheet.  The edges were filed to match the original valve, the face was filed almost flat, and then it was sanded on a piece of 600 grit wet or dry, on a surface plate until flat.  The compression and resounding pop were back, and spring pressure was just right.  Putting the burner in front of the port, and spinning the engine over got the first visible response I ever had, and by moving the flame around, got the engine running fifty or sixty cycles instead of just five or so.  Some adjusting of the valve, some tightening of all the grub screws and a few pulls on the flywheel and the engine was actually running, immediately showing interesting aspects of where the flame should be to start it cold, warming it up, and finally moving it to a point which brought the engine up to an estimated two or three thousand rpm, which will be determined today, when I put my digital tachometer aimed at it.

This is a very short video, I have a longer one which must be chopped if I am going to fit it in this build log in a reasonable amount of time.  The first engine I ever built in my life which did not run when I was "finished" with it, now is a runner, and I can hold my head up again, without self-doubt and wondering what went wrong.  To say I am stoked, would be a vast understatement.  I hope all of you get as much satisfaction from your builds as I received last night.  I will have a good solid video of this engine running posted tonight, after I tighten up everything and get it as it deserves to be, on a walnut board with the burner secured in place and everything properly polished and clean. :nrocks: :beer: :lol: mad jack

Offline sbwhart

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Re: building a Duclos "flame sucker"
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2010, 01:26:53 PM »
Well done Jack  persistence always pays off you should be very pleased with your success  .



 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Stew
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Offline cidrontmg

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Re: building a Duclos "flame sucker"
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2010, 06:15:56 PM »
Congrats Jack,  :clap:  :clap:  :clap: flame lickers, as well as some Stirlings, can be a real PITA to get running. Itīs astonishing how sensitive they are to the flame position. But once you get it right, they run at marvelous speeds. Do you now have a 100% record of engines that you made, running? I canīt say the same, Iīve done 2 non-runners  :bang:  :bang:
I guess the cooling fins in the cylinder head area are really vital for the function. That area has the greatest effect in the formation of the vacuum inside the cylinder. The fins close to the base contribute next to nothing in that respect. The base itself is also a big factor, there should be no obstructions to heat transfer between the cylinder and the base. Iīm not trying to learn you to suck eggs, just that some potential builder might read this, in the future   :)
Well done!   :thumbup:
 :wave:
Olli
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Offline jim

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Re: building a Duclos "flame sucker"
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2010, 07:24:25 PM »
 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

i'm chuffed to hear that you got it going. well done :thumbup:
if i'd thought it through, i'd have never tried it

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: building a Duclos "flame sucker"
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2010, 07:44:49 PM »
Thanks for the note cidrontmg and Stew, I am exceedingly pleased with my success, I do want to clarify something.  I'm new in the model engine building since I was a child, I've been building and rebuilding engines for money on the side since I was about ten, still building antique Harleys and other interesting engines, so it's not like I've built a bunch of these smaller versions so successfully.  A full sized engine is generally a good bit easier to keep running, even if you can't afford parts and have to patch and make-shift as you go.  I had attached the flamesucker to about a four by five inch quarter inch thick plate of 6061 with two #4 flat head phillips screws, expecting vibration, that crank web does not come close to balancing out the rod and piston, but I found what you said, cidron, it is a vital heat sink.  I had a nine minute none stop run last night, and at the end, I was moving the flame all over trying to keep it running.  I don't know if the head fins are so vital, its hard to judge without gauges and the like.  I'm thinking of an aluminum cylinder with a "squirrel cage" form of sheet around it, as in a lawn mower engine, fan blades in the flywheel, a stainless steel head, with a good thick gasket to insulate, and a good polished concave reflector at the head end, set up with a valve like the "poppin".  By the way, I've learned a lot from people who've been doing other things longer than me, and some who've been doing them shorter, as well.  My friend in town, George, he tells me about a full sized flame sucker he saw a few years ago, had about an eight foot flywheel, and about an eight or nine inch bore.  He says the man running it, set up the burner just right, got the water cooling going, had already set the flywheel where it needed to be, went around the engine with an oil can and a wipe cloth, got it all set in about five minutes or so, walked past the flywheel grabbing it about eleven o'clock with his left hand, carried it over center, and walked to the back as the engine started up and just set to running about a hundred and fifty rpm or so.  I'd like to see that flame sucker more than a bit myself.  As soon as I can edit down the long run, I'll get bits and pieces of it on the post.  Cheers from a happy camper, mad jack an addendum for jim, thanks much for the motivation and inspiration to get it done, it was worth stopping work on the radial just to hear it :nrocks: :lol:making the world a better place!

Offline Bernd

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Re: building a Duclos "flame sucker"
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2010, 08:38:50 AM »
Nice Mad Jack,

Almost a total rebuild of the engine. Glad you got it straightened out and running. Had to be a good feeling.  :ddb:  :ddb:

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Offline kvom

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Re: building a Duclos "flame sucker"
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2010, 08:39:34 AM »
A very interesting history.  Persistence pays!

We are doing a mass team-build at my school of this engine, but from the photos ours are much larger.  Did you scale it down, or did Duclos make several sets of plans?

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: building a Duclos "flame sucker"
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2010, 09:03:23 AM »
I don't know what Mr. Duclos did with his projects in his book, I built mine from the magazine article in "Projects in Metal", and it has a half inch bore, and one inch stroke.  I've seen pictures of the same engine half scaled, with a quarter inch bore, running, and found that kind of amazing beyond belief.  At a time when I seriously thought I'd never get mine running, I considered scaling it up to an inch bore, or maybe even two inches, just to be sure to get it running, but it turned out all right as it is, once I solved all my errors, and found the critical points which must be perfect.
     I am still interested in building one with a large bore, as large as I can reasonably figure out to build, just because I know they are a simple engine to keep running, and we have to burn pretty much every day, with the acres of woods we have, and I'd like to get some of that back, if I can.  One with a three or four inch bore should be able to do some work.  What size are the multiple engines your class is building?  Are you going strictly by the book, and using a rotary table to machine the cam?  As Cidron commented, good heat conduction between the engine body and the base plate is essential, and will determine how long the engine runs before it gets to a heat it must stop.  The original ones of full size all had means of conducting the heat away after it was used, mostly with water cooling systems.  Glad to hear such projects are being done in school, I still have the "C" clamp I made in high school machine shop, although the motorcycle front end I built and made a mess of is long gone, turned into other things.   :headbang: mad jack

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: building a Duclos "flame sucker"
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2010, 09:53:38 AM »

And here is the awaited video, finally got the camera figured out.  These engines are rather sensitive to the flame position, and will make amazing rpm when it is just right.

another thirty seconds of run time, I reckon it's time to get back to the radial engine, now that this long piece of work is finally a runner. :beer: :mmr:mad jack

Offline jim

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Re: building a Duclos "flame sucker"
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2010, 10:04:04 AM »
good video!!



i like idea of a bigger version, i'm going for a 1" bore on the i'm doing now. if that works ok, i'm going to try 2".

one thing i wonder about is the valve and port design when you go up in bore size. i have some concerns as to the valve buckling the bigger it gets, but i'll have some fun finding out!
if i'd thought it through, i'd have never tried it

Offline kvom

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Re: building a Duclos "flame sucker"
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2010, 01:51:57 PM »
The one we're building, from a book, is 1" bore x1.75" stroke.

Offline AdeV

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Re: building a Duclos "flame sucker"
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2010, 03:09:59 PM »
Having received a copy of the Shop Wisdom of Philip Duclos just the other day  :D :) :D, I can confirm that the book engine has a bore of 1" & stroke of 1.75", as per kvom's dimensions.
Cheers!
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Offline Dean W

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Re: building a Duclos "flame sucker"
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2010, 07:55:32 PM »
That's great, Jack!  Runs like a scalded cat.
Thanks for the pics and video!

Dean
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Offline madjackghengis

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Re: building a Duclos "flame sucker"
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2010, 08:09:26 AM »
Hi all, thanks for all the positive motivation and support, I had to run my engine as I was getting on the net, just because.  I'm glad to know the book version is much bigger, I'd hate for a student to lose the drive to build because of failure to succeed, and bigger is easier.  I'm really looking forward to seeing the several various bigger engines built, and hear them run, it gives me a better idea of what I've got in mind and how it may work.  I suspect Jim, the valve won't be a problem if you scale it up so the flex you feel in the valve feels like it will give a good seal, at spring temper, it would take a lot to buckle it, and the port shouldn't have to be more than say a quarter or a third the bore at most from what I've seen in running.  Once they get going, the flame is pretty steadily drawn straight in steady, with no tendency to blow out, if it's positioned right.  I'm also looking at the half a dozen ten to fifteen horse lawnmower engine carcasses laying about the storage shed, after giving their all mowing lawns, and thinking what would it take to make one of them into a flame sucker, they've all got about three or four inch bores and about the same strokes.  Let's see, if I set up a conveyor to lift the cut grass up to the pre-heater to dry it, and then have it fall into the burner hopper, I can maybe set up a flame sucker lawn mower that's self feeding.  I might be feeling a bit beyond myself here, but it's an interesting thought.  Thanks much for the comment, Dean, you've helped keep me going on this, and given the motivation to go all the way with every new part till it ran.  I got caught up by the several flame suckers that were being posted just a month or two ago, and I'm pretty stoked at seeing many more started, particularly the school projects, because starting young is how you get to where you can't live without these kind of things, and it's fulfilling to be a "Creator", few things even approach hearing that first pop and seeing the flywheel take off.  We make the world run these days, even if no one else notices the fact.  I've got to say I'm about as happy as a clam right now. :beer: mad jack

Offline Mad_Grasshopper

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Re: building a Duclos "flame sucker"
« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2010, 10:39:50 PM »
I could not resist taking a couple vids of this while I was visiting.

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&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="
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Offline madjackghengis

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Re: building a Duclos "flame sucker"
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2010, 08:17:30 AM »
I had a visit from a good friend the other day, for the purpose of getting the lathe of his back together so he can take it home, and he made a nice contribution with the last four videos.  Once you see a "flame sucker" close up, it's a fascination hard to overcome, at least for some, and it can be mesmerizing to watch the flame sucked into the port with no visible exhaust, knowing it is being blown out the back edge of the valve mere miliseconds before fresh fire is sucked in.  They sound far more powerful than they are though.
    The lathe being repaired was up for sale, and was taken to a shop it was going to "reside" in, but some idiot decided to find out if one could change gears in the quick change box while the lathe was running at high speed, and broke off teeth I meticulously made for gears years before, and bent all the teeth on other gears on top.  Stock gears from Boston Gear were modified, pinned, soldered, and pressed together and machined to fit, and the lathe is fit to be fully re-assembled and usable again.  My thanks to my friend Jamie, for the extra videos. :nrocks: mad jack

Offline NickG

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Re: building a Duclos "flame sucker"
« Reply #16 on: September 22, 2010, 03:48:43 AM »
Well done Jack I missed this somehow - brilliant engine, running well there!  :thumbup:
Location: County Durham (North East England)

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: building a Duclos "flame sucker"
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2010, 10:22:35 AM »
To Nick and all who have looked and commented, the accolades are appreciated, this engine is a testament to how the smallest things can keep an engine absolutely dead, and the least important thing, done right, can bring it to life when all was lost.  I enjoy being able to flick this engine over when someone new sees it, and asks, and see the look of delight which invariably comes to the faces of those who love engines.  I even enjoy running it, when I'm all alone, just to hear and see it run.  I will be back on the radial engine very soon, too many little jobs crop up in the fall, and I'm waiting on cylinders being finish honed, so I can start making pistons and heads to match them. :nrocks: :poke: mad jack

Offline Powder Keg

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Re: building a Duclos "flame sucker"
« Reply #18 on: September 24, 2010, 03:11:55 PM »
Great job!!! I built a Fire eater years ago. It was very temperamental! I made a new piston out of graphite and now it always starts on the first flick. These are pretty neat to watch run I think.

Wes
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A Gismo ??? If it has a flywheel or spins and is made with small parts. I'll take one! If it makes noise, moves, or requires frequent oiling and dusting it's a better deal yet. It's especially right if its shiny and bright; but if it's dirty and dull it wont mater at all...

Offline madjackghengis

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Re: building a Duclos "flame sucker"
« Reply #19 on: September 26, 2010, 01:06:43 PM »
Dare I drag out this log a little bit more, thanks for the input, Wes, I have made two additional new cylinders, and four pistons of bronze, since getting it running, as each gets galled, and I believe I will order some graphite and make a piston out of that, as it probably won't gall at all, and I might quit making new pistons and cylinders for the same engine.  Thanks again for that bit of wisdom. :mmr: :headbang: mad jack