Post by: joshagrady on April 11, 2018, 12:20:32 PM
For those of you with easy access to Dykem, this will be a useless post, but for those who are either cheap, or live in the machining hinterlands, read on.
Being unsatisfied with the staying power of permanent marker ink, and being unwilling to pay the cost of a good bottle of wine for a tiny bottle of Dykem, we've been experimenting with homebrew solutions (pardon the pun). It seems we've finally got a winner.
We filled a small jar with eythel alcohol, and added shellac flakes, swirling them around until the desired consistency was attained. This mixture was left overnight to reflect upon its sins. The next day the solution was restirred, and then a soupspoon of Prussian blue per 25cc of shellac mixture was added. The end result has proven to be fast drying, easy to apply, and long lasting. Among other tests, due to a phenomenally 'off day', I found that I had missed some critical layout marks by 2mm. I ended up filling in the 10mm holes in 10mm plate with the MIG. After welding, and grinding flat, I was still able to use the original marks, in the unaffected layout fluid, to properly drill the new holes. We've also left a test piece soaking in cutting fluid for 30 minutes without altering the resistance of the dye.
Solvent will remove the dye quickly and easily, when necessary.
Post by: russ57 on April 11, 2018, 09:43:43 PM
Russ
Post by: sparky961 on April 11, 2018, 11:17:13 PM
Now if only I knew where to get powdered Prussian blue and shellac flakes.... Sounds like a Dave Gingery sort of thing.
Post by: Pete49 on April 12, 2018, 12:34:16 AM
Post by: Biggles on April 12, 2018, 01:24:35 AM
Post by: RussellT on April 12, 2018, 04:48:35 AM
Russell
Post by: timby on April 12, 2018, 04:58:17 AM
In our stores there was a 10LB tin of Prussian blue powder and a bottle of Methylated spirit (Ethyl Alcohol).
We just mixed it up in an old jam jar until the mixture looked suitable, we did not use Shellac, I suspect that is just to make the mixture more durable.
More Methylated spirit was added later when the fluid thickened due to evaporation.
White water based emulsion paint was also used when marking out castings.
Scraping blue was made up from the same powder, oil was added instead of the Methylated spirit and a flat Tin was used.
Prussian blue powder is available if you Google.
Post by: gerritv on April 12, 2018, 07:59:11 AM
Cool, but why waste the ethyl alcohol? Would high test isopropyl or methyl not work just as well?
Now if only I knew where to get powdered Prussian blue and shellac flakes.... Sounds like a Dave Gingery sort of thing.
Curry's has Prussian Blue: https://www.currys.com/catalogpc.htm?Category=GAMBLIN_DRY_PIGMENT
LeeValley has shellac flakes.
I have a jar of methylene blue, might try that out and see if it works.
Post by: AdeV on April 12, 2018, 05:00:53 PM
Methylated spirit (Ethyl Alcohol).
Actually, Methyl Alcohol aka methanol is Methylated Spirit. It's usually dyed purple and has a bittering agent to make it unpleasant to drink (given that it will kill you more readily than the proper stuff).
Ethyl alcohol aka beer, whisk[e]y, etc. (well, the active ingredient of) is the drinkable variety - although drinking from a chemist's bottle of "Ethyl Alcohol" is likely to be just as hazardous to your health as drinking Meths... several university students a year die of just such a mistake...
Isopropyl alcohol is yet another version. Unfortunately, unlike Andrew's school physics lessons (see the measuring thread), my chemistry lessons didn't stick and I can't remember what the difference is between the different alcohols.
Post by: JHovel on April 13, 2018, 12:40:28 PM
As far as I know, all 'methylated spirits' in Australia is actually ethanol with bittering agents(and no drinking alcohol taxes), to avoid the horrible health issues and costs resulting from ignorantly/accidentally/deliberately drinking methanol.... Actual Methanol is now quite difficult to get hold of, except for lab use.
Post by: joshagrady on April 13, 2018, 03:21:45 PM
Cool, but why waste the ethyl alcohol? Would high test isopropyl or methyl not work just as well?
Now if only I knew where to get powdered Prussian blue and shellac flakes.... Sounds like a Dave Gingery sort of thing.
We used what we had in the 'chemicals closet'. I imagine that isopropyl would work fine. In any event, I prefer my alcohol with the aftertaste derived from ageing in an oak barrels. Straight up doesn't hold much appeal.
Gingery, no, although you're not far off. Connelly makes reference to using shellac flakes with Prussian blue and alcohol. Truly there's nothing new under the sun.
What form does the prussian blue come in, and where from? In Australia a soupspoon would be 10ml, or thereabouts.
Russ
No idea about Oz. In Spain we still have a few 'droguerias' -- drug stores (but not pharmacy/chemist's) that sell a strange, atavistic, mix of art supplies, household cleaning products, and chemical compounds. The powered Prussian blue was ~€20 for 100g.
Post by: SwarfnStuff on April 14, 2018, 02:25:19 AM
I think you just answered my riddle of why, "Metho" doesn't smell anything like my snoz remembers. :scratch:
Although it could be that Pyridine is no longer used as the denaturing component for OH&S reasons. Or both.
Either way the new stuff don't smell right. :lol:
John B
Post by: russ57 on April 14, 2018, 06:18:43 AM
Joe,I'd always believed that Oz 'metho' was ethanol with a dash of methanol as the bittering agent... Literally, spirits that had been methylated.. Amazing how things, and memories, change...
I think you just answered my riddle of why, "Metho" doesn't smell anything like my snoz remembers. :scratch:
Although it could be that Pyridine is no longer used as the denaturing component for OH&S reasons. Or both.
Either way the new stuff don't smell right.
John B
Russ
Update...
Some interesting reading later, and it used to be as I remember. But since the methyl bit was poisonous, and people drank it anyway, the methanol was replaced with water and various bittering agents.
So, now claimed as non-toxic.
Post by: Will_D on April 15, 2018, 06:12:39 AM
Any idea of what the red pigment is in Dykem Red (or Yellow)?
Post by: PekkaNF on April 15, 2018, 06:57:43 AM
Pigments of any color...I suspect blue and yellow/orange/red would contrast.
Now I only need stock up and find the freaking ethanol or methanol, which are pretty much unobnanium except in industrial, pharmaseutical, or food industry. Some sort of ethanol is in windshield washer liquid, that has either -20C or -40C rating, last one sounds closer, but is it good enough for this use?
Pekka
Post by: russ57 on April 15, 2018, 07:12:16 AM
if you could find ready mixed shellac, adding the pigment to that would work i reckon, https://madmodder.net/Smileys/default/laie_14.gif though it would be a bit thicker than ideal maybe..
russ
Post by: tom osselton on April 15, 2018, 01:57:07 PM
Interesting thread this.
Any idea of what the red pigment is in Dykem Red (or Yellow)?
In some of the older books I have they talk about using Dragons blood for pigments.
Post by: sparky961 on April 15, 2018, 03:47:41 PM
In some of the older books I have they talk about using Dragons blood for pigments.
I've bled enough on some parts that I could have scribed lines in it. But I'm hardly a dragon... except first thing in the morning before coffee.
Post by: Will_D on April 15, 2018, 06:04:34 PM
So any other prettily coloured cyanoferate or dichromate complexes would do.
Will they be toxic? Don't know just don't eat!!
BTW: PB IS a very useful "antidote for certain kinds of heavy metal poisoning"
Post by: joshagrady on April 17, 2018, 04:34:26 PM
In some of the older books I have they talk about using Dragons blood for pigments.Dragon's blood, at least in Spain, is the sap of a type of palm tree. We use it to dye shellac and putty to match the tones of certain tropical woods.
In my experience, virgins are currently harder to find than dragons. YMMV :lol:
Post by: awemawson on April 17, 2018, 05:06:27 PM
Post by: philf on April 17, 2018, 05:30:06 PM
That brings back memories of the training school at Mullard Blackburn in about 1970. I've not used any since - probably because I haven't had any.
Broad felt tip pens work nicely for me.
Phil.
Post by: AdeV on April 17, 2018, 06:05:14 PM
Does anyone use copper sulphate these days for layout? A solution of copper sulphate pretty instantly deposits a thin layer of copper onto clean steel which shows scribed marks nicely and is extremely durable,
Interesting idea.... I have some copper, and some sulphuric acid, so I reckon I could make some copper sulphate easily enough...
I have a book somewhere which explains, in some detail, how to grow fancy crystals such as copper sulphate. It wouldn't be allowed these days, H&S, kids near acid? Jumpers for goalposts?
Post by: awemawson on April 18, 2018, 02:27:08 AM
Post by: Fergus OMore on April 18, 2018, 09:53:57 AM
Copper Sulphate, lime and water?
Used it on my Apple PC and there isn't a virus left :lol:
Norm
Post by: mcostello on April 18, 2018, 12:36:00 PM
Post by: krv3000 on April 22, 2018, 02:49:29 PM
Post by: fatal-exception on April 23, 2018, 04:41:20 PM
You can color shellac pretty easily with a variety of different dyes that are commonly available. TransTint is one brand name that comes to mind, it can be bought in liquid form. I'm sure that I've also used powered dyes from Lee Valley in the past also. I think with the correct amount of dye to shellac to alcohol, it would make a durable layout fluid as the OP suggests.
Post by: NormanV on April 26, 2018, 03:04:35 AM
Post by: vtsteam on April 30, 2018, 08:42:43 AM
For readily available materials, here in the U.S., that means a ball point pen, liquid shellac, and denatured alcohol (shellac thinner) will do the job. The last two are available in every hardware or paint store here. I have both on hand for woodwork, including pattern making, anyway.
Dry Prussian blue pigment, while available in specialty city art stores, is not something locatable in my town, and probably not cheaper or easier to obtain than Dykem.
Prussian blue in tubes of oil paints is locally available, but also expensive. I'm not sure how well it would mix, or how quickly it would dry in alcohol. Probably not as well on either count.
Prussian blue oil paint It will work in a pinch as a spotting marker for scraping, but not as well (it's paler and dries more quickly) as the "real" thing -- I've used both.
Norman's find....a used ballpoint pen tube? Found everywhere, free. That's the kind of tip I really love.
Post by: vtsteam on April 30, 2018, 08:46:08 AM
(though for cheap and readily available, I don't think the used ballpoint/shellac combo can be beat)
Post by: PekkaNF on April 30, 2018, 10:02:20 AM
The secret was to find "alcohol" based permanent marker and dilute it into "alcohol".
Maybe "Spirit" permanenet markers and moonshine are plentyfull there?
Pekka
Post by: mcostello on April 30, 2018, 11:54:06 AM
Post by: krv3000 on May 01, 2018, 05:04:43 PM