MadModder
The Shop => Tools => Topic started by: raynerd on June 09, 2009, 10:07:27 AM
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I got my boxford model A lathe a while ago and I since then I have been offered a 8" boxford shaper. I`m pretty interested but since I have my X2 mill, will I have any use for it? I have seen some nice videos on youtube of shapers running and they look like a clever little machine but with my mill, do they have any advantages or additional benfits?
There is countless reports and forums dedicated online to mills and lathes but shapers don`t often get a mention. Money isn`t such an issue as he doesn`t want much, I`m thinking more about available space. I quite fancy it to go along side my Boxford but then I`m becoming a "tackle tart" rather than function!
Anyone own a shaper or lend any advice?
Chris
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You'll get a mixed response about shapers,
I like mine, leaves a better finish than the mill in my opinion. But that's with me at the wheel of my tools, others may have different ideas.
I wouldn't part with mine, but they are slow. I made this on mine
http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=908.0
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Jeez Darren, missed that thread - amazing job and thanks for the info regarding the shaper. What make and model is yours?
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I Have an Atlas 7b, well mine is an Acorn but they are exactly the same thing but re-branded for the UK market.
It looks rough and rusty in these pic's, but it's not really and is in fine condition mechanically. Certainly cuts really nicely. :ddb:
http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=503.0
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Cheers Darren - interesting thread.
It really did worry me about how heavy this machine was! Is there no way to break them down a little more to make them more managable for transport?
I`ve more or less agreed that I will have the machine but I`m a little concerned now about getting it home in my freelander with the stand. It just high-lighted the issue in your thread!!
Just out of interest - do you know how your shaper compares to the boxford 8" model. I was just wondering if you have ever come across any details about it and if all the necessary functions are on the Boxford as well.
Again, thanks for the post.
Chris
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chris
have a look at this page. I'd take without a second thought if I had space
matt
http://www.lathes.co.uk/shapers/ (http://www.lathes.co.uk/shapers/)
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The above link lists the shaper as "light enough to be moved easily" which is about as helpful as a chocolate fireguard (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b28/CrewCab53/Smileys/pottytrain2.gif) but I'm with the other guys, if you can fit it in the workshop take it ......... no question .............. just put it down to being a gadget freak if SWMBO asks, ........... hopefully (for us all) treatment on the National Health will be forthcoming :coffee:
CC
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Just out of interest - do you know how your shaper compares to the boxford 8" model. I was just wondering if you have ever come across any details about it and if all the necessary functions are on the Boxford as well.
Chris
Hi Chris, sorry this is the only shaper I have any exp of...
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The above link lists the shaper as "light enough to be moved easily"
He can come and move mine into the garage then, cos light it aint !!
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Does anyone know if "in practice" these can be dismantled into parts managable by a single person? I have help getting it to my house and out into my back yard, but ultimately will want to shift it into the cellar and I`ll have to do that alone and mainly because large pieces won`t fit down anyway!
Chris
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Well you could strip it a bit, but frankly it would take time and the main casting would still be too heavy for one person.
Best to keep it whole I think....
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Hi Guys
I got the shaper and managed to get it all together and fixed up over the last few nights, I just couldn`t let it go when he was giving it to me .... and now to the same problem as the lathe - powering it up!
I have just opened the socket box and in there are 4 wires, three black and one green/yellow striped wire. And that is when I got a sickening feeling - is this a three phase?!?! How else will I be able to clarify this? :( :(
I have looked at the boxford shaper manual found here:
http://neme-s.org/Shaper%20Books/Boxford%20Shaper/Boxford%208%20Inch%20Shaper.pdf
It does say that both three phase and single phase motors were used on these shapers. To quote the manual "Machines for single phase electric supply are correctly wired before dispatch. Machines for 3 phase supply can be reversed if necessary by changing over any two leads from the supply."
Now this may be incredibly naive or idiotic but knowing relatively little about electrics, this could be take that "reversed" means reversed to single phase -sadly i presume not.
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Sorry, only ten minutes later but I have just had confirmation off the original owner that it is 240v single phase, so how the heck can I have 4 wires in the terminal block? - my basic knowledge of fitting a plug suggests I should have three, an earth, live and neutral!
Chris
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sadly i presume not.
Quite correct, you presume wrongly, or is that correctly.... :lol:
It means to reverse the direction of the motor. Clockwise/anti-clockwise.... :thumbup:
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Sorry, only ten minutes later but I have just had confirmation off the original owner that it is 240v single phase, so how the heck can I have 4 wires in the terminal block? - my basic knowledge of fitting a plug suggests I should have three, an earth, live and neutral!
Chris
Chris, sorry to say but without being there in person I can't really advise. From what you have said we don't really know if you have single phase or 3 phase despite what the previous owner has told you.
Have a look at the motor tag...
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Motor Plate Reads:
BrookCromptonParkinson Motors
Doncaster
AC Motor
MMA544BB14
W 550
RPM 1425
V 280/440 - 220/250
A 1.5/2.6
PH3 H250 RIG CR
INB.CL F AMB oC Max
BB5000/11
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Do I fear the worst - PH3 = Phase 3 ? The guy I bought it off still insists it is a single phase, said he hasn`t wired it up but is Uncle, brother or who-ever had?!
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It's 3 Phase Chris with a desirable dual voltage motor...not that it's much good to you on a shaper mind... :scratch:
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Yes, it's 3 phase.
It won't be as efficient, but you can run it on single phase with a fairly cheap converter. I was looking at a full size mill they were retiring from use here at work, so looked into these. I found them on eBay for under $100, and locally for even cheaper (~$85). I think Bernd has one on his mill, so he can probably tell you more.
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A 3PH motor can run on 1PH power but won't start. If you can rig a pulley with a pull rope or use a pony motor to start it turning it will run. That said it's not very convenient. The cheapest 3PH solution is a static phase converter, but a VFD would be a better choice IMO.
The nameplate doesn't state the HP of the motor; you need to size the converter to the size of the motor.
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The Bridgeport is has a 3 phase 220/440 volt 2 horse power motor. I run it with a rotary converter that is a 3 phase 3 horse power on 220 volt single phase and it self starts. A freind of mine put it together for me for the cost of the parts, which means I got away cheap for about $35. I'm very happy with the converter. It's a bit noisy but works great.
Bernd
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Well thanks for the info - what a huge disappointment!
I was debating whether to get this in the first place, it is a big piece of kit! I have rang Brook motors and a direct replacement 1ph would be approx £220!!! OUCH! I have been looking into converters and again, safety in mind, I really don`t feel this is something I could do and it would again cost me near the same if I got someone to do it for me. It is just going to cost too much in the long run and multiply this with the space that it takes up, I`m just debating whether this is something I really want to keep right now! If it had been single phase it would have been a great buy and could have happily stayed in my workshop but as it is, it is going to really cost me to sort it out and with my mill, perhaps I have enough equipment to be getting use to.
Hummmm.... thanks for your help so far. :doh:
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Craynerd,
It's 3 phase, but the dual voltage as somebody said is desirable. You don't need a convertor or rotary convertor you can use an inverter which also has the advantage of giving you full variable speed.
The hp is 3/4 (550W as says on your nameplate). You can get inverters from here: http://www.bedetools.com/page12.html (http://www.bedetools.com/page12.html) the one you need is £135. Just another option. Either that or you can quite easily make your own static or rotary converter. I looked into it but for my harrison lathe but it was easier just to buy a new motor for that.
Interestingly, my Centec milling machine has a very similar, if not the same motor as your shaper. I didn't know it was 3 phase until it started cutting out due to the bi-metal thermal overload contacts on the switch. When I looked into it it's a dual voltage 3 phase motor, however, it self starts, it's wired straight into 240v 1 phase because as I said, I didn't have a clue it was 3 phase! Unless somebody has messed around inside the motor creating their own static convertor as there are only 2 wires ... really puzzled! :scratch: :scratch:
Did you pay a lot for it? For £135 I reckon it'd be a useful addition to the workshop.
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Nick,
A 3ph motor won't start on single phase without some help...
I'll take a guess, someone has rewired the internal motor connections to delta and conected a capacitor from L1 or L2 to L3.
Then it will start and run fine, but at 1/2hp
Chris, please don't try this. First you need to know exactly what you are doing as either a: you'll kill yourself, b: you'll burnt the motor out in 5 min flat.
It's slightly more complicated than what I suggested above, you need propper test equipment in order to get the right cap values (there will be two of them and some sort of actuator)
Nobody can tell you what the cap value will need to be as they are all slightly different and it's found under testing at load.
It would be a simple matter to take the 3ph motor out and swap it for a single phase unit. Don't look for a new one, second hand you can find them for a tenner or so or even free. I have quite a few spare motors collected over the years.
Nick, sounds like someone has turned your motor into it's own 3ph generator.
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Darren
"Don't look for a new one, second hand you can find them for a tenner or so or even free." Where would I look to find one at those sorts of prices?!?
When I first saw the 4 wires, I thought one was an earth, one a return and then the other two are both hot but used depending on the voltage. The guy who I got it from still insists this is a single phase even though I told him I`d emailed Brook motors and they confirmed it as a three phase! If two are live and one is a return, I presume I`d be able to find the two lives through continuity with the return but not with each other.
Like you say, perhaps it isn`t worth risking anything - but then again if I don`t, the machine is going :(
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Ask the ex owner to come and wire it up....but stand well back..... :lol:
I got my spare motors over the years mainly from car boots. I never paid more than a fiver for any of them.
One is a very nice "proper" 1hp unit and came with all the modern safty switches and armoured flex etc....(proper as in not a chinese 1hp)
If you don't want the shaper I'm sure I can find you a place to leave it....but bear in mind... the best things in life don't come free...they take a little effort.
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Darren
I totally appreciate what you are saying - I`m giving in a little easy. To be honest, I`d be more persistant if I had room for it but it is much bigger than I thought - I didn`t realise the base homed the motor and was driven from underneath. This doesn`t help me because my workshop has a ledge running around the top where my machines go and there isn`t room for original cabinets. For example, my Boxford lathe - the bench is in storage at parents and the lathe itself mounts perfectly on the worktop but with the shaper I can`t do that - it needs to be on the bench. This obviously takes up floor space!
So I`m certainly not one to be defeated and realise that with a bit of effort I could get this going. I`m really wanting to keep it but realistically, I think for the sake of space and then factoring in the effort to convert the motor, it needs to go. Pitty and I really don`t want to.
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Well Darren, you have convinced me to keep it - I moved it this morning to my parents garage where it will stay until I source a suitable motor replacement. Just a couple of questions because I know your the man when it comes to electrics - Do you think that a replacement of the 3phase with a similar single phase would be a better option than a converter/inverter, with the knowledge that my electrics are pretty poor? Secondly, if that is the case - Obviously I`d need to match the power output but how would I know the physical dimensions for a perfect fit, is it just a case of measuring up or should the current 3ph motor plate tell me this info? - not knowing anything about motors, are there standard sizes or is it unlikely I`ll get a direct match and have to fabricate/modify the machine to accept a replacement? Looking at the plate details I posted earlier, of the current 3 phase motor, is there any way to find the physical size.
Any advice welcome.
Chris
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Chris,
I'm not that well up on motors, but here's a stab at it.
They are sized physicaly by "Frame Size" but what you need to know is the diameter of the body, length and how much spare room you have. Then the physical mounting points style and spacing. Lastly the output shaft diameter.
Often you don't need like for like as some of it can be worked around.
3 phase supplies can be real handy if you are looking for more 3ph machinery to add to your workshop. I think you are probably not going to do that and 3ph is far more dangerous than single ph if you don't know what you are doing.
Personally I would think the shaper would be just as happy on single phase and if it were mine, even though I have 3ph I would change the motor to single ph.
Why? Well 3ph power supplies don't come cheap, I bought what I could afford at the time I needed one and could only stretch to 3hp or 2.2kw. That means that realistically I can only run one 3ph machine at a time. OK why would I want to run two you might ask? Some machines can be left to get on with a job if they have auto stops. My shaper has such and so do most air compressors. My new mill will have this ability as well. Compressors you tend to just leave on and they kick in and out when needed. the shaper can be a slow tool so handy to set it up and let it get on with the job while you do something else. BUT DON'T LEAVE THE ROOM .
3ph tools are generally much cheaper than single phase as there is a never ending que of customers for them.
The decision must be yours and no-one can really advise you what to do. However, knowing your ablilites with electrics I would stear clear of 3ph. I don't mean to patronise, it's just that things can start to get complicated in this area.
I hope that helps... :dremel:
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Cheers Darren
"I don't mean to patronise, it's just that things can start to get complicated in this area." - absolutely spot on - last thing I want to do is :zap: and with it being at my parents for the time being, I certainly don`t want to zap them! I think perhaps a good start would be to remove the current 3ph motor, measure it up and then get it listed on ebay. This way, I`ll figure out the size and how it is installed and since I`ll never have a use for it, it may as well help fund my replacement.
Thanks again for all your advice.
Chris
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Tip,
Join Freecycle ( like Craigs list in the US) and ask if anyone has a motor there, I got a 3ph one to make a rotary converter that way.
Alas 240/440V transformers are not so easy to come by or cheap and I needed 440V 3ph for my lathe.
However I did manage to make a 330V 3ph supply to test my lathe with with a very common transformer that is real easy to find. Alas, although the lathe ran fine in low speeds there was not enough juice to power the high speeds.
I tried to get a 240/440V transformer wound for me, but it was cheaper to just buy a comercial 3ph converter. So that is what I did in the end.
PS, if anyone has any 240/440V single phase transformers I would be very interested. Even if you just tell me where you got it from.... :thumbup:
A 3ph motor that can be wired in Delta mode is a dodle to run on single phase, but only if you know exactly what you are doing.
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Craynerd,
As your motor is the more desirable dual voltage (can be wired in delta) you could use the inverter ... still quite an expensive option though at £135 from the website I showed you. For your needs it would be much better to source a 3/4 hp single phase motor. Actually, they usually say to go up the next size when swapping to a single phase as there's less torque I think (is that right Darren?)
For my Harrison lathe I swapped the 1 1/2 hp 3 phase that was on it for a 1500 watt single phase from here: http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Axminster-240V-Electric-Motors-29787.htm (http://www.axminster.co.uk/product-Axminster-240V-Electric-Motors-29787.htm) The motor seems to work well, very happy with it so far.
On the Harrison it was a fairly easy swap as the bed plate was adjustable in both planes. The only issues were 1. that the diameter of the shaft was larger so I had to bore the existing pulley out on another lathe and I used a tool winding the carriage back and forth to cut the key way. 2. the exisiting switch gear couldn't be wired up as it was actuated by 440v coil. I guess to make things neater I could have some how got this rewound to 240v? but I opted for just using the 240v one I had spare.
Nick
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And with that I eletrocuted myself tonight !!!!
Even worse the trip didn't ....trip that is....have to get a new one methinks....
Wet lead on the cement mixer......didn't even touch the plug... :zap:
Be carefull out there :dremel:
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they usually say to go up the next size when swapping to a single phase as there's less torque I think (is that right Darren?)
Not quite but almost
A single phase motor pulses it's power between the phases,
A 3ph motor does not pulse as when one phase is ramping down the next is ramping up so there is in effect no change. Therefore the power is constant and not pulsing and you can get away with a smaller motor frame (this is not the same as less power). This is why some 3ph machines can give such a good finish over the same machine with a single phase motor. A mill for example.
But on a shaper I seriously doubt it would make any difference with the mass of the ram moving.
The main reason 3ph motors are used is because they are 150% more efficient over single phase motors. This is not insignificant in just one machine, let alone a large workshop full of them.
It is also why when running a 3ph rotarty converter (running an idle motor to generate the third phase) along with a machine motor, it is no more costly to run than a single phase motor on it's own of the same size.
But at the end of the day one horsepower is one horsepower as 1Kw is 1Kw. The difference is in how much electricity each uses.
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Most home workshop compressors here have 1PH 220V motors, so there is no load issue.
I am running both a 2HP VFD (mill) and a 7.5HP RPC (lathe). Neither was difficult to wire up. Unless the cost for 3PH is exhorbitant, I believe that getting 3PH power will be easier than trying to refit a 1PH motor as long as you go with a good commercial unit. Given 3 power and 1 ground lead to the motor or its switch, you just tie the corresponding outputs with wire nuts, close the joints inside an enclosure, and you're good. When you start it up, check the motor rotation, and if reversed just swap any two of the power leads.
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Kvom,
I belive it is customary in the US to have 220V 3ph..?
3ph in the UK is 440V, converters at 440V are very expensive compared to 220V converters which are quite affordable.
This is why dual voltage motors 220/440V (delta/wye) are so attractive here, but alas not too easily found.
Having 3ph mains brought into your home is prohibitivly expensive and most of the time the power companies would refuse you anyway if they don't see you using enough to generate an attractive bill.
You might want to see this
http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=1042.msg12108#msg12108
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This has re-kindled my idea of getting the lister engine running,
It could turn a 3ph motor to generate a very effective 3 phase electricity supply. 3ph motors work just as well as 3ph generators if they are turned by something. Could be another single phase motor but it needs to be higher HP to cover losses.
The listers coolant tank could then be the underfloor heating pipes or a domestic radiator and lets not forget the heat from the engine itself.
I had planned to run it on used vegitable oil instead of diesel of which I have a plentiful free supply.
We shall see....maybe later....
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(this is a long winded post and I make no excuses for it, as long as it helps :thumbup:)
Chris,
It was too hot for me today to do anything on the house or garage, I don't like the heat,
So I decided to go into the cool basement and play with the shaper instead. I did a bit of fiddling, tidying up some dials and adjusting the belts.
To give it a whirl to see what it could do after some adjustments I decided to give it a real tough job by cleaning up the rusty-est bit of metal I had to hand. This is cold rolled steel. I had some similar recently that I could not drill or mill. It just broke tools.
It was suggest by some members on here that ageing this sort of material by leaving it to rust forms a real tough skin which is not only hard but also abrasive to tooling.
I would not want nor suggest that you put a milling cutter anywhere near it. Too expensive to destroy in one pass.... :bang:
But lathe tools on the other hand are cheap, and HSS is easily re-ground to form a new edge when it dulls.
I machined all the surfaces here with no re-sharpening, heck I didn't even touch the bit up for this job from the last time I used it.
Well it don't come any rustier than this piece I'm about to demonstrate.....btw, I long ago asked Helen to keep an eye out for any bits of metal on her travels when walking the dog. She's dragged home bits and bobs inc this one which is from a bar over six feet long....!! I've no idea how she managed it cos it sure was heavy... :clap:
Here I have adjusted the shaper to a high speed , gear No4, and short stroke. Best to keep the stroke as short as you can to use all the power in that distance. If you doubled the length of the stroke you would only have half the power whilst cutting. Worse if you more than doubled it. I'm using a lathe tungsten tip here.
Cutting depth 50 thou/1.3mm table transverse 10thou per stroke.
(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Shaper/A%20bit%20of%20rusty%20bar/IMG_2381.jpg)
A video to give another aspect to what I'm trying to describe. Cutting depth 50 thou/1.3mm table transverse 10thou per stroke.
(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Shaper/A%20bit%20of%20rusty%20bar/th_Shapershortstroke.jpg) (http://s401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Shaper/A%20bit%20of%20rusty%20bar/?action=view¤t=Shapershortstroke.flv)
Here you can see I have turned the work 90 degrees and at the same time lengthened the stroke. This saves cutting time as the table has less distance to travel. However, because of the longer stroke I needed to use the next lower gear, No3. I've changed to a HSS toolbit.
(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Shaper/A%20bit%20of%20rusty%20bar/th_ShaperLongStroke.jpg) (http://s401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Shaper/A%20bit%20of%20rusty%20bar/?action=view¤t=ShaperLongStroke.flv)
Now turned the plate on its side
(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Shaper/A%20bit%20of%20rusty%20bar/IMG_2383.jpg)
First pass halfway across. Cutting depth 50 thou/1.3mm table transverse 10thou per stroke.
(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Shaper/A%20bit%20of%20rusty%20bar/IMG_2385.jpg)
First pass all the way across
(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Shaper/A%20bit%20of%20rusty%20bar/IMG_2386.jpg)
2nd pass, Cutting depth 50 thou/1.3mm table transverse 10thou per stroke.
(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Shaper/A%20bit%20of%20rusty%20bar/IMG_2388.jpg)
(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Shaper/A%20bit%20of%20rusty%20bar/th_ShaperFlateSide.jpg) (http://s401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Shaper/A%20bit%20of%20rusty%20bar/?action=view¤t=ShaperFlateSide.flv)
Final pass, setting changed to Cutting depth 5 thou transverse 5 thou per stroke.
(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Shaper/A%20bit%20of%20rusty%20bar/IMG_2389.jpg)
As you can probably tell, my machine is only small and has a 1/3rd HP single phase motor. I was mostly using 3rd speed of four and it barely cut 50thou/1.3mm depth. Mind you I think that's impressive as it is. I could have used 2nd speed to give more power but it would have taken longer.
But, please bear this in mind, even at 1/3rd power it broke the vice tonight and I had to carry out a small repair job on the milling machine before I could carry on. On the vice there is a little clamping plate below that holds the moveable jaw down. The srew that fixes it sheared under the pull of the cutting forces. I had to mill it out and re-tap the vice in order to fix it. (and I didn't have a jam, this was just normal cutting forces)
I say all this as I hear talk of fitting 1HP motors to shapers....that's 3 times the power that I have.
Now just imagine if you get a jam, my motors stalls, 1HP could tear the machines inner workings to bits........just a thought I think you should consider.
It great thinking if you can give it more power to plough through the cutting process, but bear in mind that the machine is also feeling the pressure and just may not like it.
This applies to any machine, shaper mill, lathe etc. I have seen many mini lathes fitted with huge motors...I wonder how long they last....
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Darren, fantastic - absolutely amazing, thanks for all the effort. the videos are excellent and you have certainly clarified the ability of these little machines. I totally take onboard what you were saying regarding fitting a too highly powered motor. I have actually been working on my shaper today by cleaning it up and removing the motor. I spent a few hours this afternoon ringing around for prices and also visiting one that was in loot - unfortunately the size was no-where close and the mounting points totally different, would have been a real pain to try and fit. I did happen to speak to someone who offered me a replacement motor for 120 quid but said that it is a chinease import and wouldn`t be very useful. I finally went to RDGtools to pick up my clamping kit and mentioned I had this shaper and was on the hunt for a motor. Apparently they have a bloke who comes in Mon and Thursdays who re-wires them to Delta and fits an inverter - I`ve emailed him all the motor details for an exact price but he guessed at about 100 quid. Now that is a big price considering you guessed I could pick up a motor for much much less, but I`m thinking that this is a good quality Brook Crompton and for the hastle of trying to modify the housing to fit a new motor, it may be worth while to save up for a few weeks (put the er32 collet chuck on hold!!) and just go with the inverter .... what do you think? I suppose we are going around in circles, I think we`ve had this discussion before but I`m inclined now to go down this route. The inverter idea put me off earlier because I wasn`t confident at wiring it but if it is done for me, than perhaps this is the way to go.
Anyway, thanks again for your pics, vids and writing. You certainly showed me how impressive these little shapers are in action and highlighted some key points to consider. I`m so pleased I didn`t sell this machine in the end.
By the way, just out of interest, I`m missing the crank handle to manually turn it for the checks before you turn it on, not an essential bit of kit but just out of curiousity, I emailed Boxford and apparently they still provide old parts and will cost 25 quid inc postage. Can`t believe they still provide spares!!
Thanks again, Darren.
All the best.
Chris
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Darren, if you get an opportunity, could you take a piccy of the lathe HSS tool you are using? I just want to see a bit clearer the profile.
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Have a look here
http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=503.msg1979#msg1979
And here
http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=533.0
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First one is a very good image just with it being from an angle, I can`t quite see - is the cutting surface the full width of the tool or is it actually just the far edge, or part of the far edge. I think I`m with it, I guess it is just a case of grinding one from a HSS blank and seeing how it performes. It is actually different profile than any lathe turning tool I have seen, or at least that I use. It has more of a hooked end.
Cheers, Darren
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The cutting edge is rounded, it's not really hooked just raked back a bit.
It's just experimental, try grinding some different shapes and see how they perform.
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Does this mean I can get rid of my powered hacksaw to save space :lol:
(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Shaper/shapersaw.jpg)
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I like that setup Darren! :thumbup: :clap: :clap:
David D
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Not mine David, but an interesting idea, just not sure about the down feed. I suppose if the clapper was open slightly then it would work fine as it closes whilst the blade drops.
Here is another idea that should apeal to those with limited space or funds. I grinding head fitted to the slide.
(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/thebodger/Shaper/Shapergrinder001.jpg)
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Anyone any idea how I would source a replacement tin/can of green boxford paint? There are a few patches that need repainting and touching up. I presume someone must supply it or any recommendations for a match - even then how would I send a sample?
I tried eye-balling a colour at a local car parts shop but it looks no-where near a "snap"!
Appreciate any reply.
Chris
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Have a look on the Yahoo group Chris, but IIRC there never really was a "standard" so there are innumerable shades of Boxford green out there, best take a chip to your local paint mixing place and see what they can do .......... to be fair you'll probably be best painting it all though if you want something pleasing to the eye.
CC
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I understand ... and thought that that may be the case. Infact, after reading your post I went to look at my boxford shaper and lathe and as you said, they are different shades, the shaper is more of a lime green and the lathe a fraction darker.
Cheers
Chris
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A bit of an update on the shaper front - I got myself a single phase motor, £15 and it is a 1hp, 1425rpm and the mounting plate matches exactly to the original one with the spindle also seeming to be a match! I haven`t started any sort of assembly - just got the motor home and did a comparison.
Plate says: HP1. Rating Cont, Class E. V220/240. A 50. Rev/min 1425. c/s50.BS Frame B56. EE frame MJCK624. Diagram 20028.Cap 12uf 130uf. L4713/5. AM 1 67 , Capacitor run, capacitor start.
(http://i.ebayimg.com/18/!BWJ5jyw!Wk~$(KGrHgoH-DsEjlLl0BVjBKWIEb7k4Q~~_12.JPG)
(http://i.ebayimg.com/02/!BWJ5nkQCGk~$(KGrHgoH-CMEjlLl0rDjBKWIEwWukQ~~_12.JPG)
Do you think this will be suitable? :doh: I`m just concerned what the capcitor start and run thing means, from what I have read it just means that it starts and runs at full torque? Also, the motor is a little bigger than the original but the square box at the top really bumps up the size, what is that? Still fits in the base as there is plenty of space.
Chris
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Athe square box at the top really bumps up the size, what is that?
That's the capacitor.
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Of which there will be two of,
As long as it runs it seems fine Chris... :thumbup:
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Wahooo - something that has gone right with this shaper for a change! :ddb:
I`ll keep you posted.
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Yep, just 2 big capacitors in there. That's the sort of motor I got for my lathe, gives it a higher starting torque. Should be good. :thumbup:
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Well chaps - have started getting somewhere :ddb: and then it all went wrong :bang:
Well it isn`t that bad. Basically I had to remove the drive pully from the old 3ph motor to get it onto my new motor and in the process I managed to snap one of the pully walls. It was a nice clean break so I decided to stick it back together with JB welds. Due to the pully not aligning as it did on the old motor, I had to use brackets to mount the motor. It has been a REAL pain in the arse as the confined space to work in is unbeliveble and the mounting brackets have made the job a whole lot harder! Anyway, camera in hand, I went around to my grandparents tonight (where the shaper is now situated, no room at my house) with the intent to tighten the final bolts and turn it on! ....and so I did and it run like a dream! Went inside to get my grandad to have a look, he watched it for about 1 minute and then bob - something went and it all froze. It was the damn JB welds giving way and the pulley spliting and the band slipping off.
Well could have been worse - at least this way I will have to make a new pully but will be able to make it so that I don`t require the mounting brackets (that incidently took a good while to make!!) but this will allow me to hook it back up quicker and also make it neater.
So it runs and it looked to run really well! I took my camera but it didn`t run for long enough to get any footage. So, weekend project is making this pully and hopefully should have it running for early next week.
Can I ask, what is the best way to remove the pully from the motor spindle. I tried giving it a tap with a steel bar but it doesn`t seem to want to come. It is on really tighty and the keyway is not in use, it is held by a grub screw but it seems tighter on this spindle than it did on the original motor. Don`t care about smashing it particularly but I don`t want to damage the motor.
Chris
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Hi Chris
I dont know if this post will help you or not last time i was faced with a stuck pulley i borrowed a 3 legged puller from a mate most garage mechanics or mantainence guys have one in the toolkit . also seeing as the pulley i was taking off was made of alloy so i applied a lttle gentle heat with a blowlamp (different rates of material expansion etc.) The other method is by making up a device called "a Strongback" and that is best explained by a drawing (must get a free copy of " COC ") basically it consists of 2 bits of hefty flat bar. 2 bits of studding ,4 nuts and a packing piece one of the flat bars has a notch in it to go over the motor shaft behind the pulley two holes drilled in it for the studding and the other flat bar has two holes for the studding and goes at the front of the pulley between this and the shaft end there is a packing piece slightly smaller in diameter than the motor shaft the nuts on the studding are tightened up evenly applying a force on the pulley and jacking the pulley off i have used this method in a past lfe for removing pulleys and bearings on shafts up to 6 inch in diameter hope you have success in removing the pulley
Cheers Paul
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Chris, if the busted pulley is solid enough you could drill and tap a couple of holes in it parallel to the shaft then use these to jack it off the shaft.
You could probably repair that pulley by making a plate to screw on the outside then you could put that chip back in secured by your favourite industrial adhesive and the plate would support it.
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Two great ideas there John - cheers for that!!! :nrocks:
LOL, now I don`t know whether to repair it, which would be much easier, or replace it which would make a neater job (but not any more functional)!!
Time to have a think. I`m tempted to repair as it would remove the risk of breaking the motor removing it. It also eliminates the need to spend time making the replacement. Really appreciate your post.
Only thing is, the wall of the pulley isn`t too thick so not much material to screw the plate too before it would stick through into the V groove?!
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Chris, if you can arrange it the plate is screwed to the pulley with just a few screws below the level of the groove. The are no screws going into the broken chip as the plate just supports the back of the chip which is really held in place with adhesive.
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Hi John, I`ll have to take a look tomorrow but the V groove is pretty deep and the side of the chip is the side with like an extended shank so you can`t "see" below the depth of the groove. You could make a plate with a large hole to fit over the shank and back the walls but the plate would be the depth of the groove. If it was the other side I`d just make a full size plate and screw into the solid of the pully but on the side it is, there is only "wall" to screw into. I hope this makes sense, I need to look thought myself tomorrow so there is probably a way to get around it that I am missing... I`ll let you know.
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I guess you could not get the plate on anyway while the pulley is stuck on the motor?
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Well chaps - have started getting somewhere :ddb: and then it all went wrong :bang:
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Can I ask, what is the best way to remove the pully from the motor spindle. I tried giving it a tap with a steel bar but it doesn`t seem to want to come. It is on really tighty and the keyway is not in use, it is held by a grub screw but it seems tighter on this spindle than it did on the original motor. Don`t care about smashing it particularly but I don`t want to damage the motor.
Chris
Chris
After you have taken the grub screw out that is holding the pulley on get your flashlight and check and see if there is another grub screw in the hole that is holding the pulley on. :doh: :doh:
The first grub screw was to hold the pulley tight and the 2nd grub screw was only to keep the first one from loosening off. I learened this the hard way a few years back and always have remembered to check that if a grub screw is involved. :lol: :lol:
Hope this tip helps.
Cheers :beer:
Don
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Blummin good thinking Don! :clap:
I`d forgotten..... I was caught out by double grubs some time ago..... :bang:
David D
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Well remembered Don, I've just been caught on that one with my pillar drill and it was nothing to do with a pulley.
Would I have remembered so I could tell Chris.....nope..... :clap:
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Yeah, I remember this too now you've come to mention it! Chris, didn't you take this pulley off the old motor though? It shouldn't really be such a tight fit, although I seem to remember mine being tight on my lathe aswell. The puller would be the best bet I think, two tapped holes, a bar and a screw to push on the shaft and jack it off.
Nick
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Cheers chaps - regarding the double grub screw, I`ll try and remember that one for future but nope, this is just held by the one. John, yes sorry, it was late last night when I was replying without the motor infront of me and your right, it is on t`other side so I`ll have to remove the pully and make a new one. To be honest, other than the hastle of removing and making a new one, it will "situate" the motor better in the frame without the need for the brackets so I`ll go down this route.
I`ll take some pics and post them up here - this will be my first true necessary build. I`ve been going to RDG nearly every other week for the last 6 months and I always buy a chunk of ally or brass so I`ve built up quite a collection. I have a couple of nice thick rounds of ally I could use as well as steel but I think the ally will be easier to work with. I`ll keep you informed and thanks for your input.
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BUY A NEW PULLEY! Do NOT attempt a repair, unless it is welded by someone that knows what they are doing. Most motors spin at 1360 RPM or higher. Spinning puts a lot of force on the rim (radially outwards), and the belt puts stress on the sides perpendicular to that. The result (as you saw) is the flange busting off again. If it happens at the wrong time, and you or someone else is in the wrong place, you could have a nasty injury. On something that spins faster, the failure is quicker and sometimes more catastrophic.
With electronics, the worst thing is to let out the magic smoke. With humans (and pets), the worst thing is to let out the magic red jelly. Don't risk it.
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You can buy pulleys from machine mart by the way!
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Thanks for the words of warning. I am making my own and should have it finished shortly.
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Well I finished the new pully in less than a couple of hours. The task was eased and I was more confident by the fact that I had made two pullys before now for the X2 belt drive conversion project. So I just followed the method I used for those, I just ground a new tool for the profile of the pully walls. It turned out really well and the Boxford runs so my pully was a success!! With my new pully, I also made allowance for the motor spindle being further out compared to the original. This way the pully sits closer to the motor housing and means that I can totally do away with the motor brackets to fix it to the housing. This makes it much more solid and sits just like the original did using the same mounting points. I`m chuffed to mint balls...
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/fixedpully.JPG)
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/images/fixedpully1.JPG)
:ddb: :) :ddb: :) :ddb: :)
I`ll post some videos later of the shaper running in terms of the ram but I now have my next issue which is getting the damn bed to move!! It is currently right at the end of its travel next to the opperator (front?) side of the ways and I can`t get it to go back the other way, either power feed or manual! :bang:
I`ve downloaded the manual from here: http://www.neme-s.org/Shaper%20Books/Boxford%20Shaper/Boxford%208%20Inch%20Shaper.pdf
Theses shapers were fitted with a horizontal auto-feed as standard but the vertical was an add-on. I was really pleased as I have identified that mine definately has vertical auto-feed as well. That being said, I can`t get either to work! I can get both the lead screws to turn but the bed is not moving along the way, it is just stuck right at the end! Anyone any idea....?
From the manual "The table can be traversed horizontally towards or away from the operator by hand, with the operating handle fitted to the upper
feed shaft of the carriage, and its position regulated by means of the micrometer dial engraved in .001" (see fig. 5). The table moves
on the carriage on dovetail ways and has an adjustable gib. The table can be raised or lowered by hand, with the operating handle
fitted to the lower feed shaft of the carriage. Before lowering the table, the table support at the front lower end of the table should
be unlocked. Power feed is provided for the horizontal traverse of the table and is controlled by the knob at the top of the feed housing.
If required, power feed can be fitted for the vertical movement of the carriage as an extra, which should be specified when the
machine is ordered. The carriage carrying the table and providing the vertical movement is fitted with dovetail ways and adjustable gib, and can
be locked in any position with the box key. The front table support can also be locked and provides an additional support for the table when horizontal movement only is required. The cross feed nut runs off the leadscrew thread before the limit of horizontal movement of the standard table is reached to
prevent damage if the machine is left running with a power feed engaged. This safety feature cannot be included when the swivel
table is fitted, nor does it apply to the vertical power feed. It is suggested these features should only be fitted when skilled personnel
will use the machine.
Power feed for the table is obtained by using the knob on top of the feed housing. This has four positions, two feed and two neutral or no feed positions. The usual practice is to fee d the table during the return or non cutting stroke of the ram. To feed the table towards the operating position of the machine, the feed indicator plate should be set with the box key to the A or lower scal e on the feed plate and the feed knob set with the letter A
facing the operating position of the machine. as in fig, 7. To feed the table away from the operating position o f the
machine, the feed indicator plate should be set to the B or upper scale and the feed knob set with the letter B facing the operating
position. With machines fitted for power vertical feed this is obtained by unscrewing the knurled locking screw on the feed housing and
rotating the assembly 180° when the vertical feed will be engaged. It is not possible to engage the vertical and horizontal feeds at one
and the same time. Five feeds can be selected from the feed plate in increments of .0025" per division, adjustment being made by slackening the
feed adjusting screw with the box key and moving the feed arm over the scale on the bush, see fig. 7"
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Well done Chris, good job on the pulley.
Has the bed not just come off it's screw .. i.e. been wound too far at some point?
NIck
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Hi Nick, I`m going to have some time looking at it again today but It didn`t look to be as it was at the other side of the travel, fully screwed through. I have a feeling I have not engaged it by selecting the correct feed position on the feed plate.
Chris
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Been thinking about it Chris, but a bit difficult not knowing the machine or having it in front of me.
I wondered if the gibs were locked up, but you say you can turn the hand wheels?
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Hey guys, I managed to sort it out. Basically it had come off the threaded lead screw at the front end, the lead screw has no threading at the end as a safety feature and so that is doesn`t carry the table into the gearing! Obviously at the other end it would just come off the thread. I had thought about this myself and had tried pushing it but with no luck earlier today. After reading Darrens thoughts about the Gibs I realised I should slacken them right off to give me more play and try and lock the table back onto the thread. I didn`t think it had worked as the travel is so slow (which I realise is right for a good finish on these machines) but it took me a while to notice it was moving.
:) Found it a home (grandparents) and didn`t sell it!
:) New 1ph motor installed
:) New pully installed
:) Table now traversing on the horizontal and vertical power feeds
To do:
1. Lock on the swivel table and mount the vice
2. Buy/make and install a tool holder (I have one but it is much much too big - maybe mod it?)
3. Check it all over again
4. Make some swarf....
Thanks for all the replies so far on this thread. It has been really helpful - I think sometimes it is just nice to write things down and it helps you mull through your ideas yourself as well as all the excellent replies you get back :mmr:
By the way I have obviously been reading the manual for this and I`m really chuffed to find that this shaper has both the additional add-ons that were available. It has the vertical power feed which is not standard and also the swivel table, rather than the fixed. Again, both of these were add-ons when originally purchased. :headbang: I didn`t have a clue about this when I first got it so quite nice supprises.
Vids and pics to come soon - with it not being at my house I need to make a concious effort to remember to take the camera!
Chris
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Great stuff Chris.
Typically I used to have some bits from a shaper but had no use for it so donated it to club - sods law :doh:
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You got some really nice features with that shaper Chris.....if you even need or want to move it on give me a shout.......
Now lets see some pic's :thumbup:
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...just missing an autostop ...but then you can`t have everything can you!
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At least I have those, in both directions......but I would like a down feed cos operating that by hand when it's running is a whole barrel of fun... :bang:
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At least I have those, in both directions......but I would like a down feed cos operating that by hand when it's running is a whole barrel of fun... :bang:
Auto downfeed for shapers is on the drawing board already!
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Hope you like:
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That's a nice looking machine you have there Chris, well done on the motor work..... :thumbup:
Next big leap won't be far away now...... :dremel:
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Thats is a nice machine Chris good job on the motor as well.
You could make dove tails on that no problem.
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Have fun
Stew
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That`s a really nice machine Chris! :thumbup:
Much smaller than I imagined it would be.....
Blummin well done! :clap:
David D
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:doh: can't see the pic here! Was too late to look last night!
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Hi Nick, it is a youtube video so I guess it is blocked at work - same here if it is any conselation! Hope you can see it when you get home
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Chris ............ If I had room I'd store it for you ............ just as a favour ::) ........... shame I cant, but well done on the restoration, nice work :headbang:
Have fun with it, when I need ow't "Shaped" look our for a Jiffy Bag :beer:
CC :thumbup:
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Excellent vid, I've always been curious about shapers, but after all of the useful info on this site aloen about them. I can see that one would be a valuable asset to any hope shop machinist. I know I'll be keeping alot closer look out for one.
Room shouldnt be too much of a problem now that I've just sorted out a 520sq ft shop fo myself :headbang:
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Just seen the vid, nice 1 Chris.
It looks like it already has the tool holder on it though?
Nick
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Room shouldnt be too much of a problem now that I've just sorted out a 520sq ft shop fo myself :headbang:
And of course you realise we all "Hate" you now ::)
:bugeye: ............ Good luck with the new shop ............ yup we are all envious, but .......... pictures are mandatory :thumbup:
Good Luck ... :beer: .......... CC
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520sqft.....nice one Scrapmaker....very nice..... :thumbup:
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You got a nice finish on that air you were cutting in the vid. :ddb: :lol:
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You got a nice finish on that air you were cutting in the vid. :ddb: :lol:
And that's not just any air, it is work hardened stainless air. :lol:
Well done on getting it going Chris :clap: :clap:
Tim
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Don`t be silly guys, there was no finish on the air as there was no tool in the holder!!! I`ll show you an example of a nice finish on the air later.... :ddb:
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Think you'll have fun with that Chris it certainly adds another dimension to your workshop. My horizontal mill could do too, but I think by selling it and using the funds I can add a better dimension!
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Wahoooo :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: It cuts - lol, I know it meant to but it works! I have cut half a dove tail, it probably took about 20 minutes as I was feeding very slow but it certainly worked. It was a bit funny, at times it "felt" really good, really shaving off the metal but then a couple of times it felt like it was rubbing a bit rather than cutting and was a little noisy. I need to identify why it was cutting good at times and not appearing to at others. I don`t know, it could have just been the sound as it hit different parts of the metal as it worked it way through? Or maybe the tool at different areas of the cut? I guess with a dovetail there is quite a long cutting surface.
My plan is to rough this out with the shaper and then cut it true with the dovetail cutter in the mill. The shapper tool is just a fraction less than 45 so that I`ll have a little to take off to size up with the dovetail cutter. Again, sorry I know :worthless: as they mean so much to me when I`m reading posts but with it not being at my house I forgot the camera! I`ll take some next time when I cut the other side.
NickG - what you going to buy with your horizontal mill money when you sell? I have fancied a horizontal mill for gear cutting eventually...
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Wahoooo :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: It cuts - lol, I know it meant to but it works! I have cut half a dove tail, it probably took about 20 minutes as I was feeding very slow but it certainly worked. It was a bit funny, at times it "felt" really good, really shaving off the metal but then a couple of times it felt like it was rubbing a bit rather than cutting and was a little noisy. I need to identify why it was cutting good at times and not appearing to at others. I don`t know, it could have just been the sound as it hit different parts of the metal as it worked it way through? Or maybe the tool at different areas of the cut? I guess with a dovetail there is quite a long cutting surface.
You just need some practice, and try different feeds/depths of cuts and tool grinds
My plan is to rough this out with the shaper and then cut it true with the dovetail cutter in the mill. The shapper tool is just a fraction less than 45 so that I`ll have a little to take off to size up with the dovetail cutter.
You'll get a better smoother finish with the shaper. use the topslide set over for the angles.
Brill, really pleased for you. A bit more playing any you'll begin to realise just how good a shaper is to have around.... :thumbup:
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One of my shaper lessons was that the clapper must be free and it must fall back every time. What was happening on my little shaper was the clapper would sometimes fail to fall down so one cut was missed but as the feed was continuing regardless the next time the clapper did fall there would be a massive overdeep cut and a terrible mess! :doh:
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Sounds great Chris, I've always disregarded shapers but after reading posts on here lately they do have some great uses.
Just bits and pieces if I sell the mill chris, rotary table, QCTP if I don't make one and power hacksaw etc.
Darren had a brainwave for the mill though, could try to covert into a bit of a surface grinder. It lends itself well as would be easy to mount another spindle on top, the drive pulley is there right next to it and the logitudinal feed on the bed can be done with a lever / rack & pinion. Hmm!
Nick
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I`m finally cutting metal but I have another problem now and I`ve tried all morning to rectify it with no avail. When I`m cutting, I`m ending up with a deeper cut at the end closest to the start of the ram stroke. I thought at first that my vice wasn`t level and sloping down towards the ram, causing a deeper cut at that end but after checking it with a guage, it wasn`t that. I set it all back up again and figured out what it was. Basically, as the ram hits the first cutting edge of the metal, it jumps up a bit on the clapper. Consequently it isn`t taking the full cut, only on the initial couple of mm before it jumps up. It then "falls off" the work at the other end, only to correctly bounce back up on the clapper for the return stroke. If I put pressure downwards on the tool holder for the rams forward stroke, the correct cut is taken! I can`t understand why the hell it is doing it but more importantly, can`t see how to fix it! Any way of stopping the clapper from lifting on the forward stroke would surely stop it lifting on the return?
Could it be the tool profile? I tried using a very sharp point and it didn`t do it as much (still did it!) but obviously ended up with a terrible finish. When I try a more rounded point it just starts jumping on the ram.
Any help or advice appreciated.
Chris
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.....and just to say, when I was cutting the dovetails I didn`t notice this as the toolpost couldn`t jump as I was traversing horizontally with the tool and cutting with its side. It has only become apparent now, trying to take a normal cut with the bottom of the tool and feeding the tool down to take the cut.
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Chris, I get effects like that if I am being too agressive with the cut, it starts deep but the tool gets flexed back a tad which has the effect of lightening the cut about half of a BSNW**. You can also get strange effect if the clapper pin is no snug, they as usually tapered and there is a very fine line between being snug enough and binding the clapper.
**British Standard Gnat's Whisker.
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Have you any way of adjusting the play in the ram:- jib strips ? .It could be lifting when you put heavy cuts on.
Stew
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Those were my thoughts too. Mine lifts slightly but doesn't seem to affect the cut. I read they are shimmed so I will have a look to see if one can be removed.
Sideways there are gib screws.
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Thanks for your suggestions - I`ve only just got chance to take a look at it tonight. It is certainly the tool post jumping/lifting/bouncing up as it initially hits the work. There doesn`t seem to be any play in the ram - that looks very solid. There was a little play in the table, it was flexing down as the ram initially hit it, I thought I had sorted it but unfortunately it still does it!
Everything looks absolutely solid, just at the tool impacts the work it jumps up and really reduces the cut!
Any more advice....I`m really stuck with this one!!
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You have to look at the things that move, clapper, ram, downfeed slide, table etc and try to determine which bit is moving.
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Ummmm.... reduce the depth of cut maybe?
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Before doing any poking about on the machine, make sure you have a correctly ground up and razor sharp tool first.
If it has been working fine before, it can only be something you have introduced since.
Bogs
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Hmmmmm.... the more times I read this the more I think it is flexin in the tool and head assembly. If putting down force on the tool holder makes it cut properly I think that just means it is not able to spring out of the work. Suggestions, reduce tool holder overhang, reduce cut depth, try a different speed.
I would never be able to get Sally Shaper to cut straight down with a wide tool, I always have to use a pointed tool and use the square end or otherwise shaped tools for only very light finishing cuts.
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Thanks for your advice but it is 100% the tool deflecting off the work piece and bouncing up! It seems crazy to think that it is bouncing up, the work piece should in theory be holding or forcing it the other way, or like John Hill posts, the tool is deflecting back but it is actually going the other way!!
(http://www.raynerd.co.uk/wp-content/upLoads/clapper.jpg)
Hope this makes some sense. I`ve tried everything, perhaps as John says, I need to check the angle and perhaps rake on the tooling? It really has stumped me.... and totally no use doing this! Just to repeat an earlier post, it was doing it when I was cutting my dovetails because the sides of the tool were doing the cutting and stopping it jumping up, it is just now when I have tried a normal cut and feeding down.
Chris
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OK may seem obvious but could I have it running too slow which is allowing it to bounce up? I`v got it on the slowest pully ratio so wondering if I should try a bit faster?
Clearly, if the shaper was here I`d just give it a go but I`ll have to wait until I go to my grandads again before I can so just airing my thoughts!
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Chris, I suggest start with a very, very slight depth of cut then slowly increase while watching what happens.
Maybe, if you have too much rake on the tool it is digging itself in until the chip is broken away then the tool springs back towards the surface. You are lucky to have a powerful machine as in the same circumstances Sally Shaper would simply stall!
Higher speed may be better, it is difficult for me to say but I do recall it took me weeks of tinkering every evening before I could get a decent cut so do not despair!
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:thumbup: can`t wait to give it a go!
Chris
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Chris,
What material are you cutting, I know it maybe somewhere in the thread but it's been a loooooooooonnnnggggg day and I can't seem to find it ..........
is it readily machinable in the lathe and mill ........ just a thought
CC
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CC - I was originally cutting steel for the dovetails and then found this "bouncing" occuring when trying to put a normal cut on steel downwards. I have also tried brass and the same thing happens .... yes, totally machinable, the steel was even free cutting.
Chris
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OK, it's not "mystery metal" then :coffee: ..................... for some reason when the cutter hits the material it's not cutting but deflecting backwards until it clears the top of the work surface and bounces up :bugeye: ......... got to be depth of cut and/or cutter profile imho.
CC