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Gallery, Projects and General => How to's => Topic started by: bogstandard on March 10, 2009, 05:05:23 PM

Title: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on March 10, 2009, 05:05:23 PM
Due to massive demand (two people actually), I will be showing how I make flywheels, from the raw material to the finished item, with all the gory details being shown. This will be the first time I have actually done this, showing everything in one post.


I have a little cast iron flywheel stash, but very very rarely use them on the small engines I make. I prefer to make my own. It takes a just as long to clean up a cast flywheel to a show state as it does to make your own. But cast does score in that they usually have a lot of mass, and the spoke design on some of them is difficult to reproduce when cutting your own.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel1-1.jpg)


So another member and myself will be making some very nice beam engines from plans, and because I will require two flywheels for the ones I will be building, it is just as easy to make another one for him while I am at it.
This is the drawing for the ones we require.
If you notice, the main flywheel width is 12mm whilst the hub is 15mm wide. I have lots of 12.5mm plate but very little 15mm and above, so I have decided to make the main bit out of 12.5mm plate and fit a brass hub to take it out to 15mm. This will also make the flywheel a lot more interesting, with the contrast between brass and ali.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel2-1.jpg)


So here we see the materials gathered together. The over sized marked circles will be cut on my bandsaw, and the brass hex with be turned and shaped to make the hubs.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel3.jpg)

That's it for now.

Don't worry if you have seen all this before, I am sure you will pick up a few new tips as I get into murdering the metal.

Bogs.
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: rleete on March 10, 2009, 08:38:07 PM
Looking forward to another episode on the Bogstandard Education Network.

Just try not to bleed all over things this time, eh?
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Divided he ad on March 10, 2009, 08:52:50 PM
Well I'm up for the flywheel workshop   :thumbup:  :dremel: 


I'm going to have to get this spoke thing into my head one day!!!  :)





Looking forward to it John   :ddb:




Ralph.
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on March 11, 2009, 02:05:40 AM
Rleete,

Those were my bloodthirsty days, I have given up cannibalism now (well almost, just a door to door saleman occasionally).


Ralph,

I know you have been putting this off for ages.  :poke:

This is about the easiest flywheel shape to do, with straight spokes. So if you can understand this post when it is finished, everything else will be a natural progression from it, and the only limitation will be your imagination.


Bogs

Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on March 11, 2009, 08:50:51 PM
So here we are, part two of this scintillating exercise (yawn). I have done this so many times in the past, it is now difficult to remember all the stages, as I normally do it without thinking. This one does have a couple of differences as I will be making multiple units.

Someone asked a short while back whether they could leave the corners on the bits as they turned them into a dsic, and I said they could, and to prove a point, I have left the blanks as they came off the bandsaw instead of hacking them nearly round.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel4.jpg)


On the pop marks I had made to draw the circles, I drilled thru with a 6mm drill (I will be using metric for this post as the part is metric). If you will be needing a smaller hole than this thru the flywheel when finished, then of course you will drill the hole smaller than the finished size. I will be opening these holes out to fit a brass centre boss.
I stuck a bit of double sided tape to the backs of two of them and found a piece of 6mm rod, just a bit longer than  the width of the 3 parts put together.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel5.jpg)


The block was assembled over the bit of rod with the tape on the two inside joints.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel6.jpg)


The block was then clamped up in a vice in a few different places, to get a good strong joint made.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel7.jpg)


I grabbed a bit of bar end (32mm) from the recycle box and mounted it up in the three jaw.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel8.jpg)


It was faced up and a 6mm hole drilled thru it.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel9.jpg)


The slug was turned around and a centre was wacked into it. No need to face it up.
The slug was removed and I forgot to take a shot of the next operation.
All I did was to put a large diameter of bar end into the jaws, towards the back, so none was protruding out the front. When the jaws were tightened up, the front part of the jaws were just smaller than the required diameter of the job (100mm).

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel10.jpg)


The just machined slug was slipped onto the centre bar with the faced off side against the metal to be turned. The bar was pushed in a bit so that it wouldn't touch the point of the centre. You could pop a bit of superglue onto the bar to hold it in position (DEFINITELY DO NOT USE LOCTITE), but I have always found it won't move anyway.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel11.jpg)


On the back end of the plates, I would have normally used masking tape, to give the friction drive, but because I had run out, I used wide double sided tape without removing the backing.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel12.jpg)


The plates were offered up to the chuck jaws and the live centre wound forwards to sit in the centre drilling, and the plates were trapped between the live centre and the chuck jaws. Do NOT be tempted to use a solid centre, it will not work.
For doing a single plate, you can just use a centre drilling on the plate and do away with the rod and slug.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel13.jpg)


Here is a shot from another angle showing how the chuck jaws are on the back plate.
Swing the chuck by hand to make sure you won't get any fouling on any part of the machine, with the tool in both the fwds and backwards position.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel14.jpg)


Tentative steps were taken in the beginning to see how much the friction drive could take. I ended up at a 1mm depth of cut. With a smaller lathe that could be as low as a quarter of that. If the plates stop turning, just take the cut off, tighten up a bit on the centre and come in again with a shallower cut. Normally, as I said, I would have trimmed the discs up a lot closer using my bandsaw.
You can just see the bit of barstock I stuck in the jaws to get them to the right diameter.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel15.jpg)


If you are doing an interrupted cut as I am doing, then use your chip guard if you have one. The bits flying off here are red hot and razor sharp, not the usual curly stuff you get with ali, that comes later when the plates are almost to size.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel16.jpg)


I started to get curly swarf coming off in small pieces, so I stopped the machine to see how close I was getting. A few more 1mm cuts and I would be onto full circle discs.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel17.jpg)


Skimming the discs up to the size I required for this time.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel18.jpg)


This is what you get if you don't trim off most of the excess beforehand. Thousands upon thousands of mini razor blades.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel19.jpg)


Here are the discs, just been split apart.
The reason for the gloves. Unlike the edges you can get to and take the sharp edges off, the two inside joints have edges like cut throat razors. Until those edges have been smoothed off, the gloves stay on.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel20.jpg)


After cleaning off they were measured. Perfect size for what I want to do. If you notice on the drawing, there is a hole drilled in the outer rim to allow the grub screw positioning and thread cutting. After that exercise is carried out, I want to fill the outer hole in with a bit of ali bar, then reskim the surface to clean it up. That little bit extra will allow for that to be done without going undersized.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel21.jpg)

So we now have three fairly accurate discs. The next steps will be to get them back onto the lathe to profile them a bit, then onto the RT to start cutting the spokes.


Bogs
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: sbwhart on March 12, 2009, 02:58:21 AM
That Brilliant John

 :ddb:  :ddb:  :ddb:  :ddb:


More please

Stew
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 13, 2009, 01:17:11 PM
Only just found this post John......  ::)

But you`ve got me attention now! 

Thank you! :thumbup:

David.
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Darren on March 13, 2009, 01:21:44 PM
I like the way you held those bit on the lathe John.... :thumbup:
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on March 13, 2009, 01:45:30 PM
For those who have seen me make flywheels from plate will have seen these techniques used before. And they are legitimate ways to hold, it is classed as a safe method, and can be used to make plates almost as large as the swing of the lathe, as long of course you don't start to try to make 20" diameter by 1/32" thick. But you could make a dozen of them stacked together.

It was for the reason of people not seeing it being done before, was the final sway for me showing it.

I hope to show you a few more bits and bobs before it is finished.

I have got the next stage of disc preparation already in my camera, so I may make a post up about that, before showing the final spoke cutting bit when I get to it.

John
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on March 13, 2009, 08:08:48 PM
This might look like a bit of a long winded post, but I am also trying to show a few things you don't normally see along the way, and explain what it is all about.

You must have read about me going on about soft jaws, and how I use them to achieve super accuracy.
I once read a post from a supposed 'expert' who stated that he used soft jaws because they didn't mark the metal he was holding in his three jaw, as they were softer than the metal he was gripping with the jaws.
How many people went away from that post thinking it was true, and didn't pursue them any further?
Maybe he was partially right, but I will tell you the correct reason for using soft jaws. They allow you to make jaws that are perfectly concentric, and because they are made for a specific part, they hold that part perfectly so machining can be carried out to high degrees of accuracy over and over again.
Soft jaws are one of the cheapest routes to go down to obtain super accuracy. I am such a believer in them, I won't buy a self centring chuck for my lathe or rotary table unless soft jaws are available for them. In fact I have a version that I use in my 5c collet chuck that allows me even more perfection than collets allow, and also I can easily skim say 2 thou off the face of a washer only 15 thou thick, and up to 4" in diameter. Try that in your normal 3 jaw.

So what are they?
They are a set of jaws made from soft iron to fit your 3 or 4 jaw self centring chuck. They can easily be bored using a normal boring bar to fit the circular part you want to hold.

Normally you would use your outside jaws for holding the blanks you have already made up from plate material, and hope that they don't have much built in runout. There is nothing worse on a show engine than a wobbly flywheel. But soft jaws can be used for many things where you want perfect concentricity, and also you can easily get repetitive quality on a batch production.

So away we go on how I use my soft jaws.
As you can see, the jaws are just a lump of iron with a scroll on the back and fit into the chuck like normal jaws, they are numbered as well, just like normal. BTW, what you think is rust on the chuck isn't, I haven't cleaned all the grease off it yet.
I have already rough bored these jaws for another job, but didn't finish the boring off, the job was done in a smaller chuck eventually.
Soft jaws should last the life of the chuck (I reckon on 5 years on the quantity of production work I do), and do need to be planned out so you don't waste the valuable material in the jaws. I start out by having the jaws as wide as possible to begin with, and over time, gradually bring the chuck jaws inwards. Once you get to a stage where the face is full of old bored holes, you skim the whole face back to flat and start again. I will also modify pre bored holes for new jobs. Once the jaws are removed from the chuck, even if used for the same job, they must be rebored, as they don't always go back in the same exact position.
Because of the surface area of the bored gripping surface, you will find that the jaws don't need to be bored very deep, as long as you are not taking massive cuts you can hold large jobs on a very shallow bored hole. For my 12mm thick job, I am boring only 4mm deep.
What I have done here is to get a billet of metal and put it at the back of the jaws and tightened the jaws down onto it. This isn't released until all boring and cleaning up is completed. The billet size is selected to allow the bored hole for your job to be bored without removing excess material, just enough to give a good back support for the part.
Soft jaws are not really for holding long bars, but if you want to waste jaw material, you can bore as deep as your setup billet.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel22.jpg)


Now onto doing the job, and here is a little tip on getting your boring bar to the correct height. My main boring bars use replaceable tips that angle downwards, and are a pig to set up by any other method.
What I do is put a bit of felt tip marker on one of the jaws, then using a tool of known correct height, scribe a line on the jaw.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel23.jpg)


Without moving the chuck, put your boring bar in the toolpost and bring it to line up with the previously scribed line. Your boring bar is now on centre.
Just a note here, you need a very robust boring bar because of the interrupted cuts. Flimsy ones are liable to get snapped off.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel24.jpg)


It is now just a matter of very careful boring until the part JUST fits into the hole. I then give the back face of the hole a skim over to smooth out any irregularities, and if you feel up to it, put a tiny undercut into the corner of the bore. Now it is a matter of very carefully deburring all areas of the bore.
You only need about 1/10th of a turn on the chuck key to release the spacer plug, and open and close enough to remount the part. The less you can move it, the better it will retain it's accuracy.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel25.jpg)


This is what the finished bore should look like, nice and clean, and totally burr free in the gripping areas.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel26.jpg)


So after all that, I mounted one of the discs into the chuck, put a cut on and sat back with a fag and a cup of well deserved coffee.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel27.jpg)


I skimmed up the front of all three blanks, then turned them over and put a single cut on to bring them all to thickness. No detectable thickness difference between all three.
I am not saying you should aim for this sort of tolerance, on a flywheel, near enough is usually good enough. I am just showing how good a cheap set of soft jaws takes you into the realms of super accuracy.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel28.jpg)


I rough marked up where the recess should end up, and mounted up my trepanning/recess tool.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel29.jpg)


The recess was quickly brought to the correct size and depth, then the other five sides were soon wacked out using the same settings.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel30.jpg)


After a bit of a deburr they are now ready to be set up on the RT for having the spokes cut.
I am not too worried about the rough finish, that will all be cleaned up and polished later.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel31.jpg)

So now you know how soft jaws work, I hope I haven't bored (pun) you too much.

Because of my interchangeable setup for the lathe and rotary table

http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=422.0

I will be boring you again when I set my four jaw self centring up for doing these parts on the RT.

Bogs

Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: foozer on March 13, 2009, 09:56:04 PM
Due to massive demand (two people actually), I will be showing how I make flywheels, from the raw material to the finished item, with all the gory details being shown. This will be the first time I have actually done this, showing everything in one post.
Bogs.

Make that THREE
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Divided he ad on March 14, 2009, 03:43:51 AM
I used my soft jaws the other day, holding some very small discs for machining.... Woked a treat  :)

I'm one of those who have as you know John seen much of your methods before..... But I'm still waiting for the next bit... well the bit where you set up and cut out the spokes (you know this already!)

I've just got some sort of mental block with this one.... I'll eventually have to spend an afternoon on spoke making..... I'll read all of this post first though  :thumbup:


Quote
There is nothing worse on a show engine than a wobbly flywheel
Ooops!  :(   I ended up with pretty over accuracy  ::)   But I'm trying! Most of their life mine will be on a shelf, not running.... So I suppose I kind of got away with it!?!   Well everyone has to start somewhere ehh?

I'm taking all the important stuff in John  :thumbup:


Keep it up. every bit helps  :dremel:   :)   




Ralph.
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on March 14, 2009, 05:51:16 AM
I know you are chomping at the bit Ralph, and hopefully by the end of the last article, you will have the method straight in your head.

I am in a quandry about it as well. I have to try and get it down in laymans terms, so it will be understood by everyone. It is easy describing it in technical terms to technical people, it is the people on their first journey into doing it that is the problem.

It is like trying to tell someone how long is a bit of string when you have nothing to gauge it against. And no, fold it in half, and double the result is not the way to get it across.

John
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Darren on March 14, 2009, 07:23:46 AM
Looking good so far John, is that a lathe tool finish or did you scotch them?

I'm really looking forward to the next bit, I have an idea of how, but it will no doubt be much clearer after one of your posts. It usually is  :clap:
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on March 14, 2009, 08:26:19 AM
Just a bit of fairly rough sponge backed emery block, to knock the corners off.

I doubt if it will be today, I feel the need for a couple of days crashing out.

John
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: sbwhart on March 14, 2009, 08:52:31 AM
Looking forward to the next installment Great work John..

:clap:  :clap:  :clap:

 :ddb:  :ddb:  :ddb:

Stew


Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 14, 2009, 09:53:56 AM
I doubt if it will be today, I feel the need for a couple of days crashing out.

John

Hope you enjoy your break John......  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on March 17, 2009, 03:53:35 PM
I retrieved my camera from the workshop last night, and have found enough pics on it to make another instalment of this epic saga.
All this to make one flywheel. But as I said, I will be doing it from the roots up, and showing how I do other things as well, complete with the reasons I do it that way.
Sorry to be showing a lot of people how to suck eggs, you should just filter out the bits you need.

I have skinned the plans down, to show you all the dimensions that you need to make this flywheel are already provided on the plans.

1 - 6 spokes. So 360 degrees divided by 6 = 60.  So if you were doing 5 spokes, 360/5 = 72 degrees.

2 - The radius required for each corner. So you would double that figure to give you your drill size. 2x4mm = 8mm.

3 - The internal diameter of the flywheel rim where you will be cutting to. This will require dividing in half, then have the radius of your drill subracted as well to put you in the correct position for drilling. 84/2 = 42. Then 42-4 = 38mm. That is the centre point for your drill, measured from the centre point of your RT.

4 - This is the PCD (Pitch Circle Diameter) for the position of the drill centre point near the central hub. You need to half that figure to give you the distance from the RT centre point, 26/2 = 13mm.

5 - The width of the spokes. You need to half the width of the spokes and add the radius of the curve (half the drill size). This will give you the offset from the RT centre point to end up with the spokes of the correct width. 5/2 = 2.5mm, add the radius, 2.5+4 = 6.5mm.

I always work in the Y axis for the main hole centres, and in the X axis for spoke width offset.

This all sounds very complicated at the moment, and sometimes it can be. But later on in this post I hope that the way I will be showing it done will clarify everything.

I will just add now, cutting flywheels is a job where total concentration is required. One mistake and you will be modifying the design slightly. There are natural stop points during the process, so if you need to take a break, it should be done then. Never stop half way thru a machining cycle, in this case, if say you were cutting the side face of the spokes, you would complete all six sides before having a break. A big sign on the workshop door of DO NOT DISTURB will help.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel32.jpg)


I would suggest you go thru this article from front to back, and watch all the short vids as well. It gives you a basic insight into how a rotary table works and some pointers on how to set it up.

http://www.jjjtrain.com/vms/mill_rotary/mill_rotary_01.html

So now onto the rotary table itself.
There are basically two bits of attachable machinery that allow you to do jobs on a mill. The straight line attachment is your vice. The RT allows you to do all the curvy bits (with a few straight bits if needed).

When buying an RT for your mill, it can turn into a bit of a minefield, and you can end up with one that will only do half of what you require.
It is all to easy to run out of depth. That is the distance from the bottom of your quill to the table. By the time you have added say the height of the chuck and jaws plus component. Put a collet chuck in the quill and added the cutter, things will start to get tight, to such an extent, you can't even change cutters or drills without moving way off centre, then coming back to centre again. The distance between the two on my machine is 14", and I wish I had a couple of inches more. A lot of people get around it by not using a chuck, and set everything up on the RT face, but chucks do make life a lot easier.

RT's come in all shapes, sizes and even ratios of the worm gear. So really I can only concentrate on what I use, you will have to work out how to do the same thing with yours. The main difference is the ratio, so you will have to find out how the vernier system works on your one to get the minutes and seconds of a degree. But in the case of this flywheel, only full numbers are used.

You can buy fairly low profile RT's, that address the height problem, but they are usually limited to horizontal use only, they don't have the built in castings to go to vertical operation. This can usually be solved by using an angle plate to put them in the vertical position. So if you are tight for height, maybe that would be the way to go.
For most small mill users, they have 3" & 4" RT's, that will do an admirable job, and if you get say an 3" or 4" chuck on there, will cope with most jobs you come across, and by taking the chuck off, even though you only have a small table, if you can get the job clamped down to it, will allow you to go to extraordinary radii for cutting and drilling if a little care is taken. Size isn't everything when it comes to RT's. Big is nice, but not compulsary.


So I had better stop beating my gums and get on with the job, but I will also be giving a bit more info in these first few pics.
I centred up my RT using a gizmo my mate brought back from the States for me. They are available in the UK if you search them out. It is called a coaxial indicator, and he got it for me from LMS.

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2060&category=

And boy, does it make the job easy, but it does have a down side, it eats into those precious height inches. By the time you get the chuck and part on there, it becomes a bit of a tight squeeze, but well worth it if you have the facilities and need. Otherwise, you will have to use your normal DTI system.
I suppose this could also be used on the lathe for say centring up your tailstock to the chuck, or for setting up in the four jaw. I haven't tried that yet, but will do in the future.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel33.jpg)


This is the RT I have used for a long while. It is a Vertex 6" horizontal/vertical one, that also by changing the handle for a disc set, can be used as a dividing head as well. Normally on these sizes of RT they have a 2MT centre to the table. Smaller tables can sometimes have just a plain hole, and it is the central hole that you use for centring the table up.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel34.jpg)


I have modified my table to take a Myford nose adapter, so that I can use a range of chucks and plates on it, and on my lathe as well, so I can swap between the two at will. It just speeds up the way I personally do things, and for normal users isn't necessary.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel35.jpg)


This is the normal method for mounting a backplate. This is one to fit an 80mm 3 jaw onto my RT, and was turned up on the lathe. Four t-nuts secure it to the table faceplate. To assist on the centring up onto the RT it has a hole bored thru the centre of it, done at the same time the spigot was cut for mounting the chuck.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel36.jpg)


A back view, showing the chuck retaining bolt holes and the t-nuts and bolts.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel37.jpg)


This is the other bit of the puzzle, a MT blank arbor turned down on the end to be a very snug fit into the hole in the backplate.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel38.jpg)


This is how it fits together. First the arbor is put into the RT central hole, and tapped down into position. Then the backplate with fitted chuck is put onto the sticky up bit. The backplate is then bolted down onto the RT table.
The chuck is automatically centred up onto the table, with the added advantage of not having to stuff paper down the middle hole to stop your chucked up bits dropping down the well, usually necessitating the removal of the RT table from the mill table to retrieve them.
If any visitors to me have the same sort of setup and would like this backplate and bits for their RT, remind me and it will be yours. I have no further use for it.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel39.jpg)


Sorry about all this drolling stuff, but we are starting to come to the bit where I get to cut some metal.
So the RT is now onto the table, centred up at 0,0, the chuck has been fitted, with your outside jaws in the chuck and the part to be machined in the jaws.
Unfortunately, in my case, I am not quite ready. What do I spy on the end of the table to the right.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel40.jpg)


You guessed it.
In my case, I fit a set of soft jaws and machine them up to fit the part. I have a definite fetish for accuracy, I just hope you don't catch it, and use your outside jaws, just like normal people.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel41.jpg)


So the job is held tight in the chuck jaws, and I have the angle set to zero on the RT.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel42.jpg)


The main table was set to zero both in the X & Y axis.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel43.jpg)


We start to set up to drill. I will be doing the inside set first, because this is the easiest to do to begin with. An 8mm drill is in the chuck.
The drill points around the circle will be 30, 90, 150, 210, 270 & 330 degrees. These are the centre points between the main spokes.
So I set the first one to 30 degrees.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel44.jpg)


The Y offset was set to 13mm.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel45.jpg)


It was at this point I started to lose it and forgot to take pictures.
I drilled each hole just over 9mm deep at the above angles and offset, this depth was because I don't want the drill tip to hit any part of the chuck jaws. This pic was after I had finished the full circle.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel46.jpg)


The RT angle was then set to zero. The placement of the holes on the outside circle is 0, 60, 120, 180, 240 & 300 degrees.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel47.jpg)


The Y offset was then moved to 38mm (remember the workings out on the drawing), the position of the outside holes.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel48.jpg)


Then the table was moved to a positive reading in the X axis of 6.5mm. This is to give us our spoke widths.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel49.jpg)


This pic shows the drill at the outside and offset position.
Again, no drilling pictures. I drilled the series of six holes at 60 degree spacing.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel50.jpg)


The only adjustment done on this manouvre was to move the X axis to -6.5mm, then the repeat drilling of the set of six holes at 60 degree spacing, the same setting angles as the previous set.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel51.jpg)


If you managed to follow my instructions, you should have ended up with a set of holes looking like the pic below, except for the blue marking, I put that on to show when the blue bit was removed, you would be left with the makings of your flywheel.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel52.jpg)

It was at this point I gave up.

I know most of you don't have the equipment I have, and will have to rely on using your X & Y handles to give the offsets. I showed the DRO's display because it was the easiest way of showing what was required at each operation.

Once you can get the basic understanding of what is required to make a flywheel cutout on the RT, you will soon be doing what I do, plan it out on a bit of paper and just cut away. Believe me, once you have got the first one under your belt, you will kick yourself for not doing it before. It really is a reasonably easy operation to do. But time consuming at times.

This bit is now open to questions if anything at all is wrong in your eyes, or more than likely, not undertood. I would like to get them out of the way before proceeding any further.

When I get back to it, there is very little to do except cut the centres out. But again that is done using offsets, so you end up with a flywheel that just requires a bit of hand dressing before use.


John
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Bernd on March 17, 2009, 04:15:26 PM
Nice one John.  :thumbup:

One question: where did you turn the jaws? In the lathe or did you use the mill and rotary table? Sorry, that was two.

Bernd
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on March 17, 2009, 05:15:19 PM
Bernd,

All I did was pop the soft jaws into the chuck on the RT, tightened them down onto a bar end, like when doing it on the lathe, put a cut on and turned the RT handle (standard cut, no climb milling). The milling cutter does a very nice job of it in a couple of minutes, very little cleaning up to do.

Normally, I would have done this chuck soft jaws and blanks on the lathe, then just unscrew it all and pop it onto the RT. But I wanted to show how soft jaws were done with a standard lathe chuck. Not my own little special setup of transferring between the two machines.

John
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: jemglen on March 18, 2009, 05:39:47 AM
Very interesting John  :thumbup: and very enjoyable and instructive. Looking forward to further instalments.  :clap:

Jerry
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: sbwhart on March 18, 2009, 06:14:02 AM

If any visitors to me have the same sort of setup and would like this backplate and bits for their RT, remind me and it will be yours. I have no further use for it.

Yes please John I think I could use it on my RT.
 :thumbup:

Cheers
 :wave:
Stew



Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on March 18, 2009, 06:31:17 AM
It's yours Stew. Just remind me next time you are over.

John
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Bernd on March 18, 2009, 12:30:09 PM
John,

I figgured you did it in the RT table. I just thought a newbie would wonder how you did the jaws.

Just tring to keep you honest.  :lol:  :lol:

Regards,
Bernd
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: ja2on on March 18, 2009, 06:13:25 PM
Fascinating stuff  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on March 18, 2009, 07:01:37 PM
Glad you guys are enjoying it as much as I do. :thumbup:

Now a question for yourselves, to help me in the future.

On the last bit of this post, I showed measurements using my DRO.

To those who don't have such things, did it detract or help the post by seeing it displayed like that? or did it come across as if I was just boasting I have DRO's (that is one thing I don't want to do).

This is a rather important issue to myself, as it is very difficult to explain about putting on exact cuts using text only, and if people do find that pictures like that help, without feeling 'substandard', then it will help me a lot in explaining in future posts.

Thanks

John

Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: sbwhart on March 19, 2009, 04:07:47 AM
Glad you guys are enjoying it as much as I do. :thumbup:

To those who don't have such things, did it detract or help the post by seeing it displayed like that? or did it come across as if I was just boasting I have DRO's (that is one thing I don't want to do).

This is a rather important issue to myself, as it is very difficult to explain about putting on exact cuts using text only, and if people do find that pictures like that help, without feeling 'substandandard', then it will help me a lot in explaining in future posts.

Thanks

John


Cracking write up John  :clap: :thumbup: :clap: :thumbup: :clap:

Any one who's met you would know you havn't got a boastfull bone in your body.

A few creaky ones yes but no boastful ones.

Never used a DRO  (hoping to fit some in the near future) I understand that as well as accuracy the other advantage is that they eliminate/reduce back lash effects, and I think dealing with back lash is where a newbie will strugle.

I've only ever used dials, the way I deal with back lash.

1:- Always come on position from the same direction where posible.

2:- Zero dials where you're going to repeat moves ie 0 move 5mm move 6mm etc mark dials with coloured crayon

3:- When you have to change direction of fead to avoid climb milling again use coloured crayon to mark dials.

4:- Plan ahead do a sketch what you going to do direction of fead etc and have this andy to refer back to.

And be methodical

Cheers
 :wave:
Stew
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 19, 2009, 04:35:43 AM
VERY well put Stew,  :clap:

I`ve just come back to dials & backlash, after 1/2 a lifetime spent with CNC & DRO.
It`s like being an apprentice all over again.....

Your comments mirror my thoughts exactly.   :headbang:



John,

I`m sure DRO makes the tale much easier in the telling...... Keep on keeping on mate!  :thumbup:

David.
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Darren on March 19, 2009, 07:46:16 AM
Hi John,

I have started to read this section a couple of times. I have to admit that it got a bit heavy going for me.

NOT, your fault, it's mine. I've been working hard outside whilst the weather has been with us and I'm very tired by the evening to concentrate properly.
This is a very involved thread and needs careful study to comprehend it properly, I will get to it... :thumbup:

As for the DRO's, carry on. I think most of us would like a similar set-up and to see it in action is very enlightening.

You do it your way, we have the  :borg: to adapt it to our equipment. Well some do, not necessarily me  :doh:

Very nice thread BTW  :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Bernd on March 19, 2009, 10:18:27 AM
John,

Aftering working on the Grizzly mini-mill w/o DRO and then having the Bridgeport with DRO I'd say what you presented was excellent. One needs to work with what ever equipment they have at the present. If they can't figure it out than we as a collective can help out. Remember 1000 words = a picture or something like that.  :)

As far as boasting, I never thought you were boasting. You showed what can be done with a machine equiped with a DRO system and that it makes it easier. And now with our comments added here a newbie should understand that.

Keep at it John. I want to see what the finished product looks like. :thumbup:

Bernd
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: foozer on March 19, 2009, 10:52:54 AM
Glad you guys are enjoying it as much as I do. :thumbup:

Now a question for yourselves, to help me in the future.

On the last bit of this post, I showed measurements using my DRO.

To those who don't have such things, did it detract or help the post by seeing it displayed like that? future posts.

John



Variety of learning styles, some can read and get it, others like photos to fill in the blanks. The tactile learners, well don't know.

Question tho on your DRO readouts. On all shots save one you have an additional 0.005 added to the stated dimension, I gather this is to account for hole growth, what muddies the pattern is your last DRO photo did not have this 0.005 added.

Nothing wrong with showing the most accurate method possible with equipment on hand. Its the sequence and fore-thought illustrated through your postings that carry weight



Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on March 19, 2009, 04:17:16 PM
Fellow MM's,

Many thanks for your enlightening replies, it looks like that the DRO shots do help, so will be used in the future.


Foozer,

That is a very good point about the '5's' on the end of some readings. That is such a small measurement that I usually totally ignore it.

I must in the future keep that in mind, I don't want to confuse people by showing my ignored figures.


I am going to TRY to finish this exercise over the weekend.

Other things are beckoning my attention (and maybe another topic).


John
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on March 22, 2009, 08:53:41 PM
HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE TO MAKE A BLOODY FLYWHEEL?

Well certainly not the two weeks it has taken me. About 3 to 4 hours if you are up to concentrating that long.

I have a bit of a confession to make, this is a new setup from where I last left it, I had a little job come in that required the RT to be removed from the table. So the RT had to be set up from scratch and the job realigned perfectly to how it was.

So what you see here was my next step. I have blued up the whole lot, and using an old ballpoint (doesn't scratch like a scriber) I drew on what needed to be removed. I also fitted a one sized smaller SLOT DRILL. The slot drill will cut all the gooves much easier that an end mill, and by going one size smaller, if I cut to the original dimensions used for the holes, it will leave a small amount of material to be removed to clean up all the edges. You could use the correct size of end mill for doing this first stage and miss out the second, but your hand cleanup time will take much longer.
I will be going thru the whole sequence twice, the cleanup one takes hardly any time at all.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel53.jpg)


The top slot is done first, but if you remember, the holes were drilled offset to allow for spoke width. So what we do is have no offset, and just set the Y distance at 38mm, the distance we used for the original holes.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel54.jpg)


Now there is no angle used for this part, it is all done by eyeball. What you do is start in the middle of the arc and cut using the RT wheel until the cutter reaches about half way across each end hole. I did these at a cut of 1mm deep each time until it had penetrated thru (8mm), in fact I took mine to 9mm, but don't go much further or you will be cutting chuck jaws. It will also get you into the correct routine for which way to turn the RT wheel. That becomes critical, as you will see later.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel55.jpg)


So all you do is jump to the next sector and repeat the same. This shot shows how far I went into the end holes.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel56.jpg)


Eventually you will have all the top arcs roughed out.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel57.jpg)


This is where the angles now come into play. 360/0, 60, 120, 180, 240, 300. and also the spoke offsets.
When the first outer holes were drilled, they had a positive offset of 6.5mm in the X axis, and the inner holes were drilled at 13mm from the centre of the wheel in the Y axis. Forget about the 30 degree setting for the inner holes, that is all taken care of. Just set up with 6.5mm offset, 38mm in the Y axis and 0 degrees on the RT.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel58.jpg)


So basically, with the cutter at the above setting, put a cut on and wind it fwds in the Y axis until you hit the hole at 13mm. Again, I tend to only cut part way thru the holes at either end. Keep repeating until all the way thru.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel59.jpg)


This is what it should look like while cutting. If you notice, the inner hole is automatically lined up.
Once you have completed one slot, move fwds 60 degs and do the next one using the same technique, carry on until all are completed.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel60.jpg)


Put the offset to minus 6.5mm in the X axis and repeat the same for the slots on the other side.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel61.jpg)


This is what it should look like for this operation.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel62.jpg)


Once you get to the bottom of the cut, the redundant middle bit SHOULD fall away, but sometimes they can fly, so be ready for it.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel63.jpg)


We have a rough flywheel. The next stage is to clean it all up.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel64.jpg)


So the cleanup begins. I fitted a correct sized END mill (8mm). What you will be doing is plunge cut the full depth, then proceed to cut along the slot edge until you reach exactly 13mm. I will only say this the once. NO CLIMB MILLING, use standard cut only. So that means, on the minus X offset, you move from 38mm to 13mm, on the plus offset, from 13mm to 38mm.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel65.jpg)


So using the same settings as the rough cut.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel66.jpg)


Plunge down until the cutter is just thru the spoke depth, then a nice smooth feed in the Y axis until you reach exactly 13mm, then retract the cutter. Do your 60 deg fwds feed on the RT and repeat until all sides are done. Put the X axis onto the positive offset, and starting the cut at 13mm, move to 38mm. Repeat as before for all six.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel67.jpg)


We now need to clean up the 13mm holes, So using 30, 90, 150, 210, 270 & 330 degree settings, we are going to plunge down each hole to clean them up.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel68.jpg)


Set up with zero X offset, Y distance to 13mm, and just plunge thru with the cutter at the above angle settings.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel69.jpg)


The next bit is cleaning up the outer radii. So X offsets to 0, and Y to 38mm. Again this is a bit of an eyeball job, you take the cutter until it just touches the original walls of the drilled holes. To do a standard cut you should be moving from the left hole to right. So plunge cut as close to the left hand hole as possible and wind until the cutter is in the correct hole position, then gently wind on the RT until you reach the other hole.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel70.jpg)


If you do it all right, you should end up with a flywheel that requires very little hand dressing to get it looking great.
Unlike myself, who turned the handle the wrong way and cut in to one of the spokes, no excuses, I balls up at the final hurdle.
I did a quickie rescue job on it by putting the same cutout in each spoke, and in fact it looks rather good to my clapped out eyes.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel71.jpg)


Finished on the RT (maybe), time to do a bit of a tidy up on the lathe.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel72.jpg)


Remounted onto my favourite soft jawed chuck. Even though the chuck had been off the lathe, after it was remounted in the same position, it was still spot on.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel73.jpg)


A quickie grind up of a quarter round edged boring tool (make 'em up as you need 'em).

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel74.jpg)


It blended the spoke outer faces nicely into the rim.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel75.jpg)


Remounted and the hole opened up with drills, boring tool to make sure everythin was straight, then cleaned up with an 11mm chucking reamer.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel76.jpg)


I didn't go any further as I need to fit a brass hub to the flywheel, and I am a bit undecided what type of clamping device would be best. A grubscrew is easy but crap looking, a taper lock looks the part and does a grand job of keeping everything from wobbling. So a decision will be made when I have had a good look at the full sized engine plans.

I think you must all be thinking, 'all that crap just to make a flywheel'.

In fact it is a lot more difficult to describe how to do it, than it is to actually make one.

If you followed these posts to the letter, you should end up with the flywheel I need to make. This is just an exercise to show you all the different things that are involved, not for you to make one. It is the principle you need to get your heads around. If you can do that, flywheel making becomes just another job.

The final bit of this project will be shaft fixing and bling.


John



Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Darren on March 22, 2009, 09:10:20 PM

I think you must all be thinking, 'all that crap just to make a flywheel'.


More like "bloody ek" will I ever manage that?

But I can see most of it is repettetive and it's just a few simple steps joined together to make a sentence.. :ddb:

One question, when we spoke in person regarding milling, you suggested, if I understood you correctly, that milling depth should be about half the cutter dia.

"give it some work to do" or some such comment.

Here, on the flywheel you took several passes a 1mm depth.
May I ask why?

Nice looking flywheel btw, those oops marks look quite effective  :clap:
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on March 22, 2009, 10:16:14 PM
Darren,

Quote
"give it some work to do"

I am a person that gets down to the fine stuff as quickly as possible, not one who would take 50 cuts all the same depth. So I can usually look at the material, type of cutter, and decide very quickly how much I can safely remove in each swipe.

I think you might have slightly misunderstood me. The rule of thumb of 1/2 cutter diameter is the MAX depth that should be taken off in one go, and only under ideal conditions, not the norm, and that would usually be a very roughing cut. By not using cool/lube would easily knock that figure down by at least 1/2 if not 3/4's.

It is also dependent on material as well, I for one wouldn't try it with stainless, but would with free cutting mild steel, in fact on some non ferrous, I have gone as deep as full width, but chip clearance and lube starvation started to rear it's ugly head. 1/4 D would be a normal sort of cut.

No wonder you were breaking cutters.

Sorry if I mislead you in any way.

The above is all dependent on feed and cutter material as well. A cutter can only clear swarf away at a certain rate, too fast and it will get choked, usually ending up with chipped cutting faces, or in the case of ali, metal welded to the cutting edges.
I also have what are called rough cutters and finishing cutters. That bagfull I gave you were rough cutters. Once one of my HSS milling cutters is used on ferrous, it will never again be used for non ferrous work unless it is for rough cutting.

The reason I only went for shallow cuts is that as material is being removed, the structure is getting weaker. To such an extent, if you took too large a cut, it could easily pick up and wrap the spokes around the cutter, or pull the job out of the chuck jaws.

I don't think things like cutting depths, feeds and speeds can be taught, purely because every job has it own little challenges, and they can only be solved by experience. There are charts for all these things, but are only generalised. If you followed them to the letter, you would be almost guaranteed to fail, as in the real world there are just too many variables.
The difference between mills or lathes have a massive influence on cutting rules. If I can wack off say 1/2" on my mill, yours might struggle with 1/4", so the 1/2D rule has been killed off in one shot. As I said, too many variables.

You will get the 'feel' soon enough, and when you do, you will realise where you were making the mistakes.

John
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: foozer on March 22, 2009, 10:26:22 PM
Quote
a taper lock looks the part and does a grand job


1 vote for a taper lock. They look proper and its a piece of toast I can surely burn.

Thank You for the informative post, the language is clear and concise, even for us colonist.
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: John-Som on March 22, 2009, 11:38:16 PM
John, it's reading notes like that that brings home to me that I am only scratching the surface with my efforts at machining. The logic and precision involved, to me, is awsome. It also underlines what a fantastic hobby this is - always new challenges to conquer and techniques to learn. And the ability to describe the process in such a clear (and entertaining) style is truly a rare talent.

John S
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: sbwhart on March 23, 2009, 02:14:23 AM
John, it's reading notes like that that brings home to me that I am only scratching the surface with my efforts at machining. The logic and precision involved, to me, is awsome. It also underlines what a fantastic hobby this is - always new challenges to conquer and techniques to learn. And the ability to describe the process in such a clear (and entertaining) style is truly a rare talent.

John S


Here Here
 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Stew

Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 23, 2009, 03:21:23 AM
So very many imparted packages of information, in one posting.....  :D

And so well explained......  :clap: :clap: :clap:

Thanks John!  :thumbup:

David.
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: SPiN Racing on March 23, 2009, 04:18:22 AM
John I wanted to take a sec to thank you for this posting...

It is very simple when you thing.. Oh rotary table... cut some spokes.. turn some cranks.. easy peasy.

And it is.... Hoever it does require a lot of very clear thought as you so beautifully pointed out.
The DRO.. Huge help for me.
I read the part about the spokes.. and the 6.5 offset.. and was scratching my head.. and kept reading waiting for the light to go on... I saw the DRO.. and the offset cut.. then as the light was coming on I saw the -6.5 cut and it all made sense.

Thank you for taking the time to explain this stuff. As you said.. taching us to suck eggs.  :D  But as I have told the wife and kids, and even my parents(in thier late 80s).. things that are simple to you... are not so obvious to us who have not done it before. And all the info is hugely helpful.

Whats really interesting to me... The peck drill is done.. and I took it to the race shop where I have been helping. They were shocked by it, and surprised. (Yes I need to get my pics cropped and finish my post on it) The amount I have been absorbing from everyones posts, and simple methods, and or long convoluted learning curves.. helps us all. Im certain there are a lot of people who dont bother to post, and or dont register and read all this.

Thanks again.

(Starts thinking of which engine design to build first)


Scott
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 23, 2009, 04:48:20 AM
John I wanted to take a sec to thank you for this posting...

It is very simple when you thing.. Oh rotary table... cut some spokes.. turn some cranks.. easy peasy.

And it is.... Hoever it does require a lot of very clear thought as you so beautifully pointed out.


Up to 3 years ago I did this sort of thing (& much more), for a living......

I could still do the job, no problem (probably).....  ::)

BUT I couldn`t possibly explain how to do it, to anyone, using the written word.......  :scratch:

Blummin well done john!  :clap: :clap:

Thank you.  :thumbup:

David.

Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: SPiN Racing on March 23, 2009, 04:52:07 AM
Yep exactly my poorly written point.. LOL

It sounds easy till you think about the steps and it gets very complex fast. But... masterfully written  :clap:
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Darren on March 23, 2009, 06:28:20 AM
Thanks John, that explains a couple of things  :doh:

So, if you were to square off the side of a 20mm thick block with the side of the cutter, would you do this full depth?

You are right about getting a feel for things, it's coming slowly, cut less, go slower and don't go to a depth of half dia of cutter  :lol:
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on March 23, 2009, 07:52:08 AM
Gentlemen,

Many thanks for the very kind and encouraging words.

What takes 10 minutes to physically do, most probably takes an hour to do in words, as most of you that do this sort of posting must realise by now. It cannot be avoided. So if a post is a very long drawn out affair, it doesn't mean the job takes the same sort of time.

I am in the shop today trying to finish it off completely, but if I do get it finished it won't be posted, as usual, until the early hours, or even the next day.


Darren,

As long as you are only removing smallish quantities (say 0.25mm) using an END MILL, you could actually use the whole length of the side flutes, even if it was say a 10mm diameter cutter but with 30mm length flutes. It is when you put deep end cuts on that you get the crappy finish, the cutter can't get rid of the swarf fast enough, so carries it round into the next cut and tries to embed it into the metal face while still trying to do the next cut. Air blowing or flood coolant helps because it cleans the swarf out of the flutes.

It is when end milling that you should really beware of climb milling. I am reluctant to do it even on my size of machine, and try to plan my jobs using standard cuts. Sometimes you have to do it, in which case, reduce the cut amount and slow down the feed, that helps to prevent the cutter trying to bury itself in your job, or yank the job out of the vice, both of which usually destroy both the cutter and the job.
 
You really need to have anti backlash leadscrews to make it so that the machine can do both types of cuts with no problems.


John
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Darren on March 23, 2009, 09:45:21 AM
Thank you John for your relentless offers of help and advise.

I wanted to make sure I wasn't trying to do something that I shouldn't be doing  :bang:

A bit more practice is what I need now  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Brass_Machine on March 23, 2009, 10:16:19 AM
John...

This is a great 'how to'. Muchly appreciate the info!

Eric
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: shoey51 on March 23, 2009, 03:10:11 PM
a very informative thread but for me I think I will leave it to the experts.
trying to convince  swmbo that I need a mill is another thing entirely
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Bernd on March 23, 2009, 04:27:31 PM
trying to convince  swmbo that I need a mill is another thing entirely


 :lol:    :lol:    :lol:    :lol:    :lol:    :lol:    :lol:    :lol:
I've been trying to convince mine I need a bigger lathe, but haven't figgured out how to make a food processor out one yet.

Bernd
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on March 23, 2009, 08:51:47 PM
This was going to be the last post, but is now the penultimate one. I just didn't feel like getting filthy, polishing up the wheel today, so that is the pleasure I have to look forwards to tomorrow.

On the last post I left it in limbo, deciding whether to go for the grub screw or the taper lock. The hub size was a little small for putting a taper lock into it, but decided, if I could keep things tight on measurements, I just might be able to squeeze it in. So that is what this post is about.

First off though, before going any further, the flywheel needs certain areas blending in. Even when machined to very tight tolerances, you will always get slight mismatches. On this pic, #1 shows where it is on this job, where the sides of the spokes blend into the inside hole. By using a combination of smooth files, a scraper and emery cloth I got all 12 areas blended in, #2.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel77.jpg)


Now that all the blending was finished, I could concentrate on the job in hand.
First off. I made the flange for one side with a core plug attached, this was a nice tight fit in the 11mm centre hole, and once it had a touch of loctite on it, it was going nowhere.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel78.jpg)


The plug went right the way thru, and was flushed off level with the ali.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel79.jpg)


I need this hub to have a tapered bore, starting at 8mm on the flange side, ending up at 9.5mm where the plug is flush with the ali. I got these figures out of my head, and a little mental calculation at this time showed me I could squeeze in a couple of 2mm cap screws for locking the taper. A quickie calculation gave me 3.5 degrees for the angle. In fact it was just a tiny bit larger, so I rounded it down.
To save me having to swing the topslide over twice, and matching up the tapers. If I could cut from small to large on the internal taper, then I wouldn't have to move the topslide to do the external one, and the tapers would automatically have a perfect match.
The flywheel was again mounted in the soft jaws, with the small hole sized flange on the outside. By coming up gradually thru a range of drills, I ended up putting a 7.9mm thru.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel80.jpg)


The topslide was swung over 3.5 degrees in the correct direction.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel81.jpg)


Everything was locked up, and the boring feed was done manually by using the topslide handle. I gradually came out until the bore was at my 7.9mm hole edge. A cut of 0.05mm was put on, and the bore given the final cut. This would be close enough for me.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel82.jpg)


This was how the internal tapered bore turned out.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel83.jpg)


The tooling was swapped over for external cutting, and still using the same topslide setover and feed, I started to cut the external taper.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel84.jpg)


When it was starting to get close to size, the flywheel was tried for fit after each cut. You only have to remove a very small amount each time, and it is very easy to take too much off.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel85.jpg)


I eventually got to where I wanted to be, a gap of about 0.25mm (0.010").
Before I parted this bit off, I put a hole up the centre, for when I start to bore for the shaft.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel86.jpg)


Internal and external tapers.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel87.jpg)


The two were tightly pushed together and a bit of old superglue smeared on the back of the joint. This will hold the parts together while I do a bit of drilling, but I will easily be able to break the joint apart.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel88.jpg)


The wheel was remounted onto the RT, which was still in the zeroed position.
By using my mental arithmetic, I drilled holes for the clamp down screws, complete with head recesses and the two jacking screw holes to get the bits apart.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel89.jpg)


The glue joint was broken and all old glue cleaned off. The four holes were tapped 2mm course thread, and the whole lot screwed up tight. It was a very tight clearance fits all round for bolt heads and threads, but there were no compromises, everything fit just right.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel90.jpg)


First off, the topslide was put back to zero. The wheel was again mounted onto the lathe, this time with the screwed bit on the inside. The excess of the taper was faced off, and the thru hole bored for a nice sliding fit on the shaft.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel91.jpg)


The last job before final assembly was to put a hacksaw cut along the length of the removeable part until the cut reached the centre bore. What this does is allow the taper to collapse down the central bore, and so grip the shaft, very accurately.
Here it is finished, you can just see the saw cut.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel92.jpg)


The back side.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel93.jpg)

This really was a tight squeeze getting it to fit into such a small area, but it works, and that is all that matters.

Get you sunglasses ready for the next post. Bling time.

Bogs
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Darren on March 23, 2009, 09:00:11 PM
Never seen that method before, how so neat  :clap:

As usual, a very tidy job, looks very mechanical. I like that.... :thumbup:
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Divided he ad on March 23, 2009, 09:21:01 PM
Good job that man!


I've got a lot of reading to do tomorrow!!  :) 

Personally I like the odd mistake.... As long as no one got injured!  It sometimes helps you to the parts true potential... Not always, but sometimes. Like now  :thumbup:



Might comment more tomorrow.... When my eyes aren't closing!!



Ralph.
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on March 23, 2009, 09:27:34 PM
Darren,

This is just a very small version of the generally available taper locks that are used on most large machines.

It allows an item to be slid along a shaft and locked down in any position. Used a lot for v-belt pullies, to line them up with each other, or for fitting pullies onto motors.

Bogs
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: cedge on March 23, 2009, 10:31:14 PM
John
That is the same technique I used to mount the "S" curve flywheels to the Water Pressure Engine. Tricky, but well worth it for the effect it adds to an engine. Nicely done!! Will you be rounding off the corners of the spokes during polishing?

Steve
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Bernd on March 23, 2009, 10:34:51 PM
Nice job as always John.  :thumbup:

Bernd
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: SPiN Racing on March 24, 2009, 12:00:17 AM
Very very very Nice work John.

And btw.. thank you.

SLOT DRILL.... and END MILL... I went and read up on them. I didnt realise they were different.. and why.  I knew about "ball mills" which are not really ball mills.. but I learned a lot about Cutters in general. And what they are really intended for. And why the differences in flutes etc.

My choices in what I choose.. and why.. will be more informed.. And I think I will be buying some additional cutters when funds allow.. for more specialised cuts. Instead of coercing the tools I have to do things they are not happy with!  :whip:

(now to look into the cut in the hub you did <wink> and why)
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on March 24, 2009, 01:38:20 AM
Spin,

At one time, it was very easy to differentiate between slots and ends. Slots had two flutes, and end mills had four, slots could do a plunge cut, ends couldn't. :thumbup:

I seems to be all over the place now with hybrid cutters being used for both jobs, multifluted with an end cutting face. But I don't think they do such a nice job as before, especially the slot drills, I find there are too many flutes, so you have trouble keeping the cuttings out of the way.
I think it all started when CNC machines became used a lot more, and by having one cutter that would do the same job as two, meant fewer tool changes.

Quote
SLOT DRILL.... and END MILL... I went and read up on them

I am very pleased to see that the post has stimulated you to find out more. :clap:
That is the correct way to learn. Rather than info being pushed at you, you actually went in search of it because YOU wanted to know more, and I bet you learned a lot more as you went about your quest.


Steve,

I don't want to do too much to this wheel, as it isn't for one of my engines, but someone elses, and I don't think he will bling his engine as much as I would do, so it might look a little out of place if I go too far. So I will be leaving it basically as per the plans, a little bit of a shine, with maybe a bit of a roundover on the outer rim.
As you can see, I had to do a spoke rescue, just as you did. But it doesn't look too bad.
None of us are perfect.

I would hate to try to describe doing one of the curved spoked designs, it would take months. :bang:


I would like to add, for putting the sawcut into the taper, I would have normally have used a slittlng saw. That would have meant replacing the RT with my vice. Problem is, I need to use the RT for finishing off a job I was doing, so it stays for the time being, and I got to use the new die filer as a powered hacksaw.

John
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: foozer on March 24, 2009, 01:44:38 AM
Very nice and "Thank You" for your time and effort. Now I am off to attempt a flywheel construction with a taper lock. No mill and just a funky ol little lathe to work with, but your sequence of operations depends not upon the equipment, just the resourcefulness of the mind to adapt the process to the tools at hand.
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: sbwhart on March 24, 2009, 02:18:30 AM
Nice Job John  I wouldn't have thought of using a taper lock on a model flywheel it really results in a neat finish.


Cheers
 :wave:
Stew
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on March 24, 2009, 04:04:55 AM
Stew,

It isn't my idea.

I steal my ideas from everywhere and anywhere. If it suits and does the job, use it.


John

Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on March 24, 2009, 08:22:35 AM
We have arrived at the last instructional bit of this post, 'thank goodness' some of you say.


Just a little reshaping to get the flywheel rim looking like I want it to. I rounded over the corners a little.
Then I set to work with finer and finer grades of emery, to remove all blemishes from the metal's surface.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel94.jpg)


If you are going to polish metal, all machining marks have to be removed and the surface should end up really smooth with a satin like sheen.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel95.jpg)


A few minutes in the company of Mrs Buff saw Mr flywheel all aglow. In fact this is a real crappy picture, the flywheel is covered in WD40 that I removed the last traces of polishing soap with. So I cleaned it up, went to take the pic and my battery was flat. The cameras, not mine. I was tired, hungry and ready for a coffee, so this will have to do.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel96.jpg)

So, that's it lads, a long winded write up on how to make a basic flywheel from scratch, warts and all.

I will answer any questions if you want, but if there aren't any, I won't.




Now because this is such a short post, just to keep you entertained. Here are a few bits I have made over the last 18 months. Before that, all my photos have been lost.

My elbow engine flywheel and cylinder

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheel1.jpg)

A pair made for a poppet valve engine, and these will be modified very soon as the engine is being finished off.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/HMflywheels.jpg)

A brass flywheel I made for my mine engine. The blank ali one was for making the same style, but I changed my mind.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/mine4.jpg)

Another big brass flywheel, about 1/2" diameter.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/Theengine.jpg)

A wierd shaped flywheel that I made about 20 years ago. This engine is just being rebuilt after many hours running.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/triffid1.jpg)

A pair of flywheels for finger engines I made for friends.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/fingerpins.jpg)

Three flywheels I made for a set of three stirling engines. The one laying down is to original plans, the two standing up aren't. I dropped the original engine and bent the crankshaft, so that is awaiting rebuild, the other two engines are made, awaiting assembly.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/eggfly5.jpg)

Three more flywheels for finger engines for friends.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/flywheels.jpg)

I even made one out of twigs, it ran very well, and still does.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/crusoebits3.jpg)

The RT isn't just used for flywheels, here I am making a rotor for the last turbine I made.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/3RotorTurbine15.jpg)





And no matter what the world throws at you.



Keep smiling!!!!



(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/bogstandard_photos/liv10.jpg)



Ready for the next project Bogs
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Brass_Machine on March 24, 2009, 11:12:21 AM
Heya Bogs... I am going to move this over to the 'how to' section.

Very nicely done. Your flywheels are works of art.

Eric
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 24, 2009, 02:02:29 PM
Well...... I`ve spent most of the day installing a new radiator in the dining room.

All is working very well, almost tropical..... Mrs Drillin thinks I`m very clever.  :thumbup:


Looking at those flywheel pics, I feel very inadequate, again!  :(


Magic, John!

David.
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Darren on March 24, 2009, 02:04:26 PM
You are clever David, you are  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 24, 2009, 02:07:47 PM
You are clever David, you are  :thumbup:

Thanks Darren!  :thumbup:

Mate......  :wave:

I feel much better (& warmer) now!   :D

David.
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on March 25, 2009, 07:05:56 AM
David,

Quote
Looking at those flywheel pics, I feel very inadequate, again!

No offence intended at all, but I really do hate comments like this. It is not your inadequacy at all, but your lacking in the confidence to try something new that holds you back.

Please stop putting yourselves down because of the success of others.

I am no-one special, and I have no specialist machinist skills other than what I have picked up thru experiences during my working life, and a bit of trial and error in my workshop. Where I do score is that I never let any opportunity to try something new get away from me. If you don't try it, you will never know if you can do it. You get successes and sometimes spectacular failures, only then do you find out your real limits.

OK, I can get what I am doing into usually an understandable format of text that most people can understand, but that is it.

Anyone who wants to do these things, can do (of course you can't if you don't have certain equipment), it is only your imagination that needs to be given a quick kick up the backside.

Darren summed up this post perfectly, each operation is a word, and words make up the sentence.

All you have to do is rearrange the words into the sentence you want.

All my posts are doing is passing information on, while I still have the chance to do it. Eventually that will stop, and hopefully someone else will take over from where I left off, and fill in the gaps.

I marvel at the other things that people get up to on this site, and only wish I had my time over again to be able to learn their skills as well.

So, try it, you never know, you might be the next master of flywheels, or whatever it is you want to do.

John
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: HS93 on March 25, 2009, 08:15:00 AM
Well John all I can say about the previous post is the sooner I can't wait to get a rotary table so i can start butchering metal to try some of your ideas, I find that even if I dont make the same things as are being made on hear I learn about what cutters people are using to get the finnish they get and different ways of doing things, being new to some of this I am learning quicker than I have in the last 20 years, so the more the better , it all helps even if it's just how to hold things.

Peter
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 26, 2009, 03:20:55 AM
David,

Quote
Looking at those flywheel pics, I feel very inadequate, again!

No offence intended at all, but I really do hate comments like this. It is not your inadequacy at all, but your lacking in the confidence to try something new that holds you back.

Please stop putting yourselves down because of the success of others.

Sorry, you misunderstood me John.  :scratch:

I used to work magic with "my" Takisawa machining centre & Nikken indexing head...... I don`t have either, now.


My attempt at tongue in cheek.....  ::)

Not really self deprecation...... Or hero worship......    :thumbup:

David.
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on March 26, 2009, 04:29:59 AM
Sorry about flying off the handle David, but I really do feel saddened, when I know people are giving up without trying, maybe not in your case, but certainly in other posts I have read.

It is usually that first step that they need to make to get them over the 'I can't do that' hump. Once they do try, and succeed, or don't fail as badly as they thought they would, they then realise everything isn't so difficult after all, and then they start to soar.

You can't stand behind people  :poke: , you can only give them verbal encouragement and hope they will take that first difficult step themselves.

John
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: SPiN Racing on March 27, 2009, 01:20:34 AM
Well if it helps any....

Reading how to make flywheels has been enlightening.  The use of a rotary table makes a lot more practical sense.

I had always wanted to get a rotary table in the 12-18" size as it would be functional for me with race car things. Such as making and or drilling brake rotors etc. (The race shop has some huge rotart table and they make 14" aluminum scalloped brake rotors for a formula car they have)

Seeing what you are doing with it.. as well as what I have seen with indexing options... there are a lot of things that can be done.

Honestly.. for me.... although beautiful... a straight spoke simple flywheel doesnt do much for my mind.  BUT.... the other flywheels you did are awesome. The variety of slots and or curves, and drilled holes adds a lot of variety to what is possible.

Goood info for me at least.  :thumbup:

Can I make those yet? Not YET... but it gives me a goal  :ddb:
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: OgreOwner on April 28, 2009, 08:02:12 PM
Many thanks for this thread.  If all would go to the trouble of the pics and 1000 words to go with it that this author did, we would all be greatly benefitted.  Some of us come into machining without the benefit of years of apprentiship and with no idea what we are doing.  A pictorial essay such as this can add years of experience to a novice like myself.  I am grateful to have "picked your brain" by reading your post.  Perhaps you could be arm twisted into doing a few other "how tos" for the benefit of the novices out here.  You did an excellent job with this one.

Karl
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on April 28, 2009, 09:51:49 PM
Karl,

I have a few of my articles like this spread about on here, and when I get myself truly sorted, I will be doing a lot more little teach ins like this if people want them.

John
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: CrewCab on May 17, 2009, 05:52:00 PM
Just caught up with this thread John and I'll add my thanks to all the others  :bow:

You have a knack for not only making it look "dooable" but also putting it into words that are very enjoyable to follow, so, whilst we are all learning we are also having a dam good time  :thumbup:

Thank you .......... please keep the "How To's" coming  :smart: ......... OK you can have a  :coffee: break now and again (http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b28/CrewCab53/Smileys/wink.gif)







one point though ................... some of your pics worry me  :lol:

This >> Tune << (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GG4pKmHQaRA)  should go well with "that" particular pic   :thumbup:

keep up the good work  :headbang:

CC
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on May 17, 2009, 08:38:40 PM
Dave,

That particular pic was of a pair of native Scousers.

They definitely have the 'roaming tinker' or 'backwoods' look.

John
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: HS93 on May 17, 2009, 11:59:01 PM

Tut Tut Bogy, you know they are your neibours kids, scousers have more hair,  see top picture .
I see that they now have computers in Crewe. just need the lesseons now.!
 The last picture is one my mate took last week at one of Crewe's top night spots.

   :ddb:  Peter :ddb: 
          Scouser

(http://i632.photobucket.com/albums/uu49/oneHS93/dangerscouse.jpg)

(http://i632.photobucket.com/albums/uu49/oneHS93/PCbeer.jpg)

(http://i632.photobucket.com/albums/uu49/oneHS93/untitledgerged.jpg)

(http://i632.photobucket.com/albums/uu49/oneHS93/cowdancing.gif)

Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on May 18, 2009, 12:20:07 AM
Peter,

Now that is getting very personal :lol:

You know mine is an espresso dispenser and I don't know what they are cooking over the coals on the barbeque, our specialty is 'burger a la ratus', they are much cheaper and take a bit of catching, the bones are a little small, still tasty though. :beer:

So you've heard about Milky Maude, we found her performing in a shack house up on the Wirral, she does a good turn, but a night around the pole means that she only gives butter, not milk. But the patrons do complain about her looks, she definitely has that Scouser feeling about her.


Bogs
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: sbmathias on November 25, 2009, 06:50:58 PM
Nicely done. When will you finish up the thread by showing how to make one of the curved spoke wheels in the introductory photograph? I'd really like to do one of those on my manual mill.
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: bogstandard on November 25, 2009, 07:25:13 PM
Cedge (Steve) has already done that on another site. Maybe he could root it out for us and give us the link.

Not as easy as you think, as it does require jigging to be made.


Bogs
Title: Re: Making a flywheel
Post by: cedge on November 25, 2009, 08:21:54 PM
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=6625.0  =JackB's method

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=3169.0  = Cedge's madness

Curved spokes take a bit of planning and some small amount of preparation, but the actual cutting is really pretty straight forward, if a bit nerve wracking. It's probably not something for a rank beginner to take on but a fairly skilled intermediate shouldn't have too much trouble. I managed it.....LOL

If you're really serious about learning how to do them right, I'd recommend the book "Shop Wisdom of Philip Duclos" by Philip Duclos, which is available from Village Press. He has a great step by step article in there, not to mention several other engine projects. It's one of two books containing Philip's collection of projects and I'd freely and highly recommend both to anyone in the model engine building hobby. No affiliation with either the author, now deceased, nor Village press.... but definitely one very happy customer and fan of both.

Steve