MadModder
The Shop => Tools => Topic started by: Bigbadbugga on July 24, 2013, 12:26:03 PM
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right, im startin to save my pennies for a mill.
im not after anything big like a bridgeport,just something fairly compact.
as for what ill be using it for i have no special plans, but id like to try some of the projects currently being shown on here. collet chuck, dividing head etc...
I've spotted this one on the chester site, would like to hear some opinions on it as a beginners mill. i could possibly strech to the slightly bigger version if you guys think its worth te extra. :mmr:
http://www.chestermachinetools.com/champion-16v-mill-3991-p.asp
this is the bigger one....
http://www.chestermachinetools.com/champion-20v-mill-3992-p.asp
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I have had a Chester champion 20v for about 2 years now and had no problems so far. Nice bit of tackle,
and if you can, go for the 20v rather than the 16v so you can cope with bigger jobs. The thing to remember
when buying a mill is the cost of all the bits you will need to be able to use it. Vice, cutters, clamps, Etc..
I have sent you a PM.
Cheers Dek. :med:
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Don't know much about those mills, but I do think that MT collets on a mill are a significant pain in the posterior. Try to find something with R8, or better still ER type collets.
Mosey
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Don't know much about those mills, but I do think that MT collets on a mill are a significant pain in the posterior. Try to find something with R8, or better still ER type collets.
Mosey
can someone explain the difference between these three?
I assumed it was just different taper angles and lengths, :coffee:
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Both the mills you mentioned have a 2 MT taper, it is mostly larger mills that have R8. With the 2MT spindle you can use MT collets, or like myself, fit an ER collet chuck. The pro's & con's of the various types
is always a hot topic, and you will find everyone has their own ideas on the subject. Have a look at this site to see the various types. www.arceurotrade.co.uk .
Cheers Dek.
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Have a look at the Offerings from Amadeal as well.
I have had great service from them.
http://www.amadeal.co.uk/
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so a set like this would be a good buy,
http://www.chestermachinetools.com/er-collet-chuck-sets-4523-p.asp
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I have the same ER25 Chuck and collett set + a load of extra colletts.
It's a great buy, but again shop around.
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yeh, i always shop around.
the set i linked was just for an example.
Thanks guys, anything else i should be looking for in a mill? Can the chester mill be fitted with a dro later on if i need it?
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Get a Clamping Kit. They don't cost much. You can make all the clamps but I decided the time outweighed the cost.
Try and get a Vice. The Cheap ones are cheap for a reason. You may have to do some work to get it to work well.
Get an Angle Plate.
Make some round Posts. 1" dia steel 2-3" long. Faced square, skimmed and drilled to suite your clamp bars.
If you can, 321 blocks are invaluable.
Do you have a Lathe? If you have MT Lathe tooling it can often be used on the Mill as well if the MT is the same.
I have to agree that the MT2 Taper mills do restrict you in Tooling.
I however don't regret buying my AMA16. It does everything I need.
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I got the XJ 20 from Amadeal a few years back when it was £600. its pretty sturdy, Rigid construction and the slides
move fairly smoothly. motor is pretty powerful and convenient variable speed but the gears are noisy. I still believe the quality of all these Chinese machines is utter rubbish (look at Rob Wilson's thread on the supposedly more superior 626) However, they can do a job, you get what you pay for and people turn some nice models out on them. With hindsight though I would have gone for a nice older machine - at the same time I also changed my lathe and got a Harrison L5 - the difference in quality between that and the Chinese mill is incredible. With regard to collets, I use ER25 and mine has a 3MT spindle
Taper. As someone rightly said, food
If you can match your lathe spindle taper then you can swap tooling. However, I think there advantages with MT 'finger' collets that fit straight in - less chance of run out, more rigid
Holding the cutter nearer to the spindle and you don't Lose any height as no collet chuck.
Nick
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Forgot to add, someone mentioned earlier - get the biggest you can afford and accommodate - the more mass and the more rigid it is the better your results will be, obviously the larger capacity is more useful too.
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What I would like to add, is that MT2 or 3 collets tend to either not hold the work/mill tightly enough, allowing it to slip, or holding it too tightly, making it a nuisance to remove the cutter. It tends to become a bother after awhile. On the other hand, ER collets are easily tightened, hold well, and are vey easy to release. I have put Er on both my mill and lathe and can't imagine going back. There is one caveat, though, in that ER collets do not hold very short pieces concentrically, and do not allow you to use collet stops easily.
There are lots of folks very happily using MT2 collets, though.
Mosey
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I don't think anyone has mentioned it, but round column millers can cause problems if the head swings around while you are raising/lowering it to accommodate a longer or shorter tool. For example, you might want to switch from a centre drill bit which you used to start the hole to a much longer drill bit to do the real drilling, have to raise the head and then find you have the devil's own job relocating it in the right place. Millers with rectangular, dovetailed colums can be better in that respect.
That said, a round column can increase the work envelope, because you aren't limited to the table travel; in addition, you can swing the head from side to side.
Andy
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Forgot to mention that, I went for a dovetailed column for that reason.
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:proj:
Both the mills you mentioned have a 2 MT taper, it is mostly larger mills that have R8. With the 2MT spindle you can use MT collets, or like myself, fit an ER collet chuck. The pro's & con's of the various types
is always a hot topic, and you will find everyone has their own ideas on the subject. Have a look at this site to see the various types. www.arceurotrade.co.uk .
Cheers Dek.
+1
I should add that in my experience here in the UK there is slightly more tooling available in Morse Taper. You can also fit MT taper drill bits straight in the quill. I have a MT3 ER20 collet chuck for my mill but normally reach for a MT collet as it preserves the "Z".
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BBB,
I have the Eagle 30 round column mill from Chester....very substantial . Ok not a Bridgeport but suits me, has an MT3 taper. I use an ER32 collet on it..
Buy what you can afford really...
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I don't think anyone has mentioned it, but round column millers can cause problems if the head swings around while you are raising/lowering it to accommodate a longer or shorter tool. For example, you might want to switch from a centre drill bit which you used to start the hole to a much longer drill bit to do the real drilling, have to raise the head and then find you have the devil's own job relocating it in the right place. Millers with rectangular, dovetailed colums can be better in that respect.
That said, a round column can increase the work envelope, because you aren't limited to the table travel; in addition, you can swing the head from side to side.
Andy
I have one of those, an Enco that I lucked into for $400 -- with base -- and it was like new -- apparently had 4 hours on it. Place was closing shop. As I was tying it down on my truck, they asked me If I wanted an old milling vise (restored in a separate thread here on MM) and a bunch of mills, clamps, Jacobs chucks (another thread here-- loosening) and other accessories which they dumped into a couple of boxes and loaded for me!
I've seen a number of different methods of getting around the round column positioning problem -- none of which I've tried yet. One of them is simply attaching a laser pointer to the head and marking a vertical line on the shop wall to line it up on.
I agree about the roughly made Asian machinery -- but used, it is affordable for people like me, and assuming some (or a lot of) work, it is a path to owning something you couldn't otherwise.
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BBB,
I have the Eagle 30 round column mill from Chester....very substantial . Ok not a Bridgeport but suits me, has an MT3 taper. I use an ER32 collet on it..
Buy what you can afford really...
I just had a look at the eagle30, it's a bit out of my price range to be honest. But the eagle25 is a similar price to the champion 20v in my original post.
Which of the two would be the best? I have to admit that the eagle looks the more heavily built of the two.
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My Enco is the same as the Eagle 30. It has an R8 taper. It looks like you can get the Eagle 25 in an R8 as well from that Chester site -- see the dropdown list.
Of course you may not want an R8 -- but I like it -- it was the standard for Bridgeports. I do think the ER collets are what most want, and I will probably go the adapter route myself some day as well. But for now the R8 works very well for me.
It has the disadvantage that my lathe accepts MT3 so they aren't directly compatible, but of course with adapters or collet chucks you can solve that.
It's impossible to say which of your choices is better, at least for me. The above mentioned advantage of a fixed slide instead of a round one is real. However, I would not personally trade my machine for the square slide one you mention. I believe jn weight/mass and mine is double the weight of the other. The HP rating is higher, I believe and the carriage travels are longer.
But, not having owned the square type, I can only give a suspicion, and that is that the square type might be built more precisely/better. Don't know it for a fact. Nevertheless, I still wouldn't trade, because I know that whatever I don't like about my mill (and there is little so far) I can change, and it is a more solid base, with more power and capacity.
If I were doing small models instead of some of the rough stuff I do, maybe I would choose the other.
One thing you should definitely do is visit the distributor and actually look at the real mills, turn the cranks, etc, and get an impression off of the computer, in the flesh.....er metal.
And don't ignore the possibility of an older used mill -- possibly a British or American mill in your price range.
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Thanks vtsteam, I think I will take your advice, Chester mt is only 30 minutes away and they have a large warehouse display. I'll go and get a feel for the different models and pick the brains of the sales people.
As for buying older second hand models, the thing that puts me off is the size and the actual moving of them, I had enough trouble with my Boxford lathe when I bought it.
Thanks for all the help guys. :)
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BBB.
In an earlier life, I milled for a living. The only tooling held by MT tapers were drill bits.
Loved my first little Chester Conquest. HATED, having to "beat" the MT tooling out of the quill....... :palm:
After 2 years, I replaced the first mill with another, but swapped the spindle and tooling for R8. http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=4754.0
Two years on . I'm still very happy with the machine....... :)
Whichever machine you choose, go for R8, if you possibly can. :thumbup:
David D
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I'm also interest in a new mill - half hijacking the thread but also hopefully adding good info for the OP. I have an x2 size Chester Conquest and met a member on here who had a seig X3. This was a much more substantial machine and I'm considering upgrading I the next year. What other machine models and makes are similar size to the X3? Do you think the effort of the upgrade would be worth it?
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Get the SX3 not the X3 they are a better machine belt drive no gears and the 3 phase brushless DC motor ( don't ask how its 3 phase dc because I do not know ) is enclosed in the head a much neater job and get R8 not has I have MT3
The only fault I have found and fixed is the poor bearing arrangement for the quill pulley they only use one ball race and it wobbles as it would I have changed mine to a two bearing setup needs the housing boring a bit deeper and the pulley shaft shoulder skimmed , now its quite just hummus at full speed and very like quill rattle , this mod is documented on the internet but pm if you need it
Stuart
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Cheers Stuart - if I remember rightly, the Sx is quite a bit more than the x3 but I guess at these prices the extra is worth it. I take your point on R8 spindle however I own a bit of 3MT stuff including er32 chuck, drill chuck and face mills - the price goes up more with additional tooling needed. Good advice though and well worth thinking about! Cheers
Just to reiterate my previous post are Seig the only makers of an Sx3 size / type machine - or do others do similar renamed models?
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:nrocks:
Cheers Stuart - if I remember rightly, the Sx is quite a bit more than the x3 but I guess at these prices the extra is worth it. I take your point on R8 spindle however I own a bit of 3MT stuff including er32 chuck, drill chuck and face mills - the price goes up more with additional tooling needed. Good advice though and well worth thinking about! Cheers
Just to reiterate my previous post are Seig the only makers of an Sx3 size / type machine - or do others do similar renamed models?
Axminster do them, not sure about the price compared with the ones you have looked at though.
http://www.axminster.co.uk/milling-machines-dept208257_pg1/
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Axminster do the SX3 and others they and arc are the importers as to the other makes I have no experience ,my choice was limited because I wanted a dovetail column
Chris for the price increase just to do away with the gears is worth it the gears on the X3 on the top cannot be lubed up to my satisfaction
If you have a load of MT3 tooling then you are in the same situation as me when I changed from a X3 to a SX3 ( lay shaft bent in the X3 ) thats why I have a MT3 variation , note if you do not give the draw bar the gorilla treatment the cap on top allows it to self eject , but as I have said that the SX3 head is much better ( and you get a tilt head for better or worse ) needs tramming, the rest is the same although the elevation ratio is lower ( easier to turn the handle)
Stuart
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SX3 from Axminster £1,629.50. SX3 from ArcEurotrade £1275. No brainer really. Oh, and Axminster only do MT3 model.
Gary - very pleased owner of SX3L with R8 spindle from Arc
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A very basic question but only ever having MT spindles I've never looked at R8 - what is the advantage or significant advantage that would persuade me to dump my MT stuff and move to R8?
All this info is very useful!
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Others with greater experience will tell you also, but R8 holds and releases the tool more easily and reliably.
Mosey
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Based on my recent experience of my MT getting stuck in the spindle then that would persuade me!
Sadly, although cheaper in Arc Euro- they are currently out of stock with no expected date of delivery shown.
Chris
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This thread on ME forum just about covers it, Chris
http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=74986 (http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=74986)
I've only had mine six months but I had the space for the X3 and could afford it and decided I didn't want to regret getting the SX2 instead. After reading lots of posts on R8 vs MT3 it seemed R8 was a better choice if like me you don't have a lot of existing tooling.
Gary
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Thanks Gary!
I'm guessing if you have had yours only 6 months them being out of stock is only a temporary thing!
Chris
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Sx3 is supposed to be and looks a decent machine but for that sort of money mine would be going on an AEW viceroy, Harrison or Tom Senior. The Myford VMB is also supposed to be good. If you're desperate to go
Down the chinese route there is the 626 style in the same price range to consider which is rigid and heavy but looking at Rob's thread has still put me off them for life!
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You might also consider the machines from "Weiss" in China available from Amadeal. Maybe the 25LV:
http://www.amadeal.co.uk/acatalog/R8_Spindle.html .
Review here
http://www.amadeal.co.uk/acatalog/AMA25Review.pdf
Andy
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Cheers Stuart - if I remember rightly, the Sx is quite a bit more than the x3 but I guess at these prices the extra is worth it. I take your point on R8 spindle however I own a bit of 3MT stuff including er32 chuck, drill chuck and face mills - the price goes up more with additional tooling needed. Good advice though and well worth thinking about! Cheers
Just to reiterate my previous post are Seig the only makers of an Sx3 size / type machine - or do others do similar renamed models?
I thin Seig also make a bigger X4 but not in our market. I have the SX3 and like it a lot. I would recommend it over the X3 but if you were going CNC, then the X3 is probably the way to go as a lot of the extras are of no value.
Having touch button control over RPM ans you have no excuse not to cut at the right speed!
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am i missing something in this ad?
seems too cheap.
http://www.gandmtools.co.uk/cat_leaf.php?id=9547
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Well Tim and Digger at G&M Tools are pretty straight fellows - ask them. They do say that the power downfeed needs sorting (as many Bridgeports do) and Eric Offen, who was their 'fixit bod' isn't with them any more.
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I just saw that and thought it was a bargain, now that's a proper milling machine!
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see now that is in my budget, but the problem (apart from the space it would take up) is getting it home and into the workshop.
i would have to pay someone with a hiab to get it for me, and somehow hide i from her indoors :lol:
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Yep thats the trouble. My harrison lathe is pretty heavy but prob not compared to that!
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see now that is in my budget, but the problem (apart from the space it would take up) is getting it home and into the workshop.
i would have to pay someone with a hiab to get it for me, and somehow hide i from her indoors :lol:
Just tell her you are repairing it for a Mate
John
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Paint it pink. It'll look smaller, too.
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I have the SX2 as well as the Chester Eagle.....big machine big jobs, li'l machine li'l jobs..... :)
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Sx3 is supposed to be and looks a decent machine but for that sort of money mine would be going on an AEW viceroy, Harrison or Tom Senior. The Myford VMB is also supposed to be good. If you're desperate to go
Down the chinese route there is the 626 style in the same price range to consider which is rigid and heavy but looking at Rob's thread has still put me off them for life!
Nick, despite having ME as a hobby for a good few years now, I'm now wary about buying second hand based on a few bad experiences and bad buys. I know the Asian made machines come poorly made out the box, at least these can be rectified! Interesting thoughts though... Now confused
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(Sigh) My friggen gawd I am just about totally confused at this point.
OK, at the almost 100% for sure fact I'm gonna upset a whole lot or everybody on this forum, and to be real blunt? I just don't really care cause a whole lot of you are supplying totally bogus information, and I know damn well you know or should know better. But for the ones who don't know? Then why the hell are you even posting stupid illogical crap on this thread? I'm actually pissed at my self I'm mad about this thread.
Are these forums not about a hobby or even a profession that's 100% based on facts, logic, math,etc and not about the best guesses or whatever some of you like to randomly guess at with half baked ideas?. Geezzeees H. Frigggennnnn Chhhheerrrist people. Can we not provide at least the bare minimum of the proper and correct facts for someone wanting to know them? He's asking what those damn 'facts' are. Not your best personal guesses. I would hope you could show enough respect to just maybe get it friggen right at least.
OK. The R-8 taper is or may be much more common in North America than it is in the U.K. or even Europe. And yeah those MT tapers are probably much more common at least at the hobby level in the U.K./Europe than the North American continent where it was originally invented. But we should be able to provide the bare minimum of information. Due to the taper angles, a MT is classed as a self holding taper, while an R-8 is"ALMOST" classed as a self releasing taper due to it's much steeper taper angle. By that I mean what's generally and already been said in this thread is correct. Morse Tapers do require a severe amount of hammering on the end of the draw bars to get them to release. That stupid hammering that is required beats the hell out of the spindle bearings. So for more information that no one here seems capable of mentioning? Please Google "Brinelling" especially concerning bearings. I think if you do that you'll see just how little force it takes to start your spindle bearings into the very fast and useless classification.A hammer and anything even approaching precision bearings don't really add up if your using even the bare minimum of logic. An R-8 taper if it's built correctly, will release any tool with a very few light taps if the machine, tooling, and yourself are doing things correct.
I really did expect far more from the members here than this.IMHO? If yer gonna post, then you really should or better know at least something.
R-8's are what's generally known as a self releasing taper due to it's steep taper angle. It normally only takes that light tap on the end of a draw bar to get any R-8 collet to release from a very firm hold. Despite that U.K. common MT availability there's no real logical issue that the R-8 design isn't a far better system. To say otherwise is outright lying. Logic and facts don't agree with your incorrect ideas. However......................................... there's always a damn however. You can buy some equipment and or build an add on to what you already have as a screw type 'ejector'. That does and would 'force' by screw methods verses that hammering to make a Morse Taper behave just by using a simple thread to force a MT collet to release whatever it's holding.I did own mills with MT's and made a point of selling them. But without going to CNC, and some type of ATC I see no need to buy anything that isn't an R-8. Buy what works even if it's slightly uncommon. Other than shipping? R-B is the most availible and cheapest tooling world wide. If I lived in the U.K.? I'd have to think I'd be looking for a R-8 taper.
I'd expect I'm now on a 'list'.
Pete
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Pete,
Good for you- it's about time that someone(else) told a few home truths.
I've made a bloody milling machine- one of those Ned Westbury's before Arnold Throp added the 'Dore' bits.
It was bloody awful- it had more blow holes in the castings than a Cadbury Aero Chocolate bar but it turned metal and cost me about £20-- and a lot of white hairs but it worked with a scrap washing machine motor.
What is the problem now? Probably the stock answer is that few of people will 'do' with a crap machine and because they cannot really afford to have a decent machine- belly ache about the cheap sh1te Chinese efforts which -if truth be known- cost less to make than my long lost airy fairy thing with a bit of drain pipe for a column.
I had money -but not sufficient for the unessentials of life.
OK, Pete- we are now TWO of a kind.
My kindest regards- and MY thanks for your honesty and courage.
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Pete,
I understand your gripe, I don't exactly agree with it but that is neither here nor there! The morse tapers that I have I mostly use in adapters, SA40 to morse, the SA 40 taper is self releasing, leaving the morse behind. So to remove the morse taper, I hold the SA 40 in my right hand (I'm a South paw) and tap lightly on a bolt placed in in the threaded end of the morse taper. As my morse tapers are mounted absolutely dry, no oil, no grease, no swarf and no protective film, they come out without pounding, a light tap is sufficient. Always remove a morse taper after use.
I have no new machines, except one that was given to me with the protective gunk still on it, missing the motor which had been burnt out. Second hand machinery is in my opinion the best way to go, as the machine is probably more robust, I am prepared to spend time changing bearings, doing a little scraping and eventually finding a way to replace gears. The problems involved in second hand machinery are mechanically simple, it's true, that buying requires a certain knowledge, but sorting out a "Chinese" machine also requires knowledge.
Regards, Matthew
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Yup. This MT/R8 matter turns easily flame war. Lets see what we can agree on:
* MT was intended originally for drilling and it is pretty good for drilling.
* ISO tapers are superior for milling, but machines and tooling tends to be more expensive
* MT3 and R8 both are used successfully in home machine shop. Both tapers and tooling must be kept clean and treated with certain respect.
My opinion:
* DIN 2080 ISO 30 would be really neat in home work shop and still allow using manual draw bar (= lower price than power bar) but properly build machine would grow whole lot bigger than most new machines sold for home shop use.
* I have old German milling machine (over1500 kg), with universal head that has MT3 taper and plain bearings. Light nip on the draw bar and light tap with a small hammer hasn't produced any trouble. That machine has seen some use, before me it was in the vocational school and I have had it about 15 years.
* Very slender/thin spindle would create problems. Spindle must be rigid enough to resist deformation when any tool taper is pulled in. Also.
* I have been wanting to buy mill/drill, mostly for drilling, but the standard ball bearing or angular contact ball bearings make me feel iffy on this application. Tapper roller bearings might survive this with thick spindle.
I agree 100% on that notation of avoiding hammering ball bearings. I have seen a products fail, because of brinneling. One example was where about 3" OD ball bearings were installed by incompetent shop - they hammered them home instead using induction heating and pressing. All failed within months....some in few hours. They last 3 to 5 years 24/7 when properly installed.
Pekka
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Pete,
Good for you- it's about time that someone(else) told a few home truths.
Apart from the fact that the first half of his post was completely pointless and unnecessary and the 2nd half didn't really say anything that people hadn't already said.
I looked back through the thread and all I saw was friendly advice based on the experiences people have had with different machines, what some of the advantages and disadvantages of certain configurations are and advice on tooling.
I was also going to say the same as Matthew and Pekka said, i've never needed more than a tap to release my morse taper tooling either.
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Respectfully, I made a lot of points. I took myself back to numerous 'old masters' and their contribution to what we are enjoying today.
I referred to Ned Westbury- with a far from pointless machine with a No2 Morse Taper spindle and a set of Mini bearings. I made one- I didn't postulate. Throp wrote the 'Vertical Milling Machine' book
and there is never a discussion about what is really a question of them 'with it' and 'them without it'. Just plain No2 MT to be belted out or otherwise.
Prof Chaddock used a No 1( now fancy that) in his Drummond and he made models which are still regarded with awe today. He hadn't a mill- then.
Whether people like it or not, that information is not inflammatory - it is merely documented history of our hobby.
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Pete, i'm gutted ! i had no idea morse tapers were so bad. I must go out to my workshop and immediately start converting the tailstocks on my two lathes, the spindle of my milling machine, not to mention my dividing head to accept R8 collets. I don't know how my 1933 lathe and 1952 mill have survived with such a sub-standard system. :lol:
Thank you, without your insight and knowledge who knows where i could have ended up.
Mike
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Pete,
Good for you- it's about time that someone(else) told a few home truths.
Apart from the fact that the first half of his post was completely pointless and unnecessary and the 2nd half didn't really say anything that people hadn't already said.
I looked back through the thread and all I saw was friendly advice based on the experiences people have had with different machines, what some of the advantages and disadvantages of certain configurations are and advice on tooling.
I was also going to say the same as Matthew and Pekka said, i've never needed more than a tap to release my morse taper tooling either.
Well said Nick ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I don't see any reason for the out burst .
Pete, i'm gutted ! i had no idea morse tapers were so bad. I must go out to my workshop and immediately start converting the tailstocks on my two lathes, the spindle of my milling machine, not to mention my dividing head to accept R8 collets. I don't know how my 1933 lathe and 1952 mill have survived with such a sub-standard system. :lol:
Thank you, without your insight and knowledge who knows where i could have ended up.
Mike
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: funny Mike ,,,,,,,,,,,,,, :clap:
OK, Pete- we are now TWO of a kind.
Cant argue with that one :thumbup:
Rob ,
PS, I will be sticking with Morse tappers :)
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Hi
Lads
I have a chester 626
I bought it second hand & have done a few mods to it
Plenty of video of it being used on my youtube chanel
It ha a R8 spindle which has been no problem at all (R8 has the advantage that there is plenty of cheep tooling around) (same as a bridegport people "borrow"the tooling from work
Nothing wrong with morse taper it has been used in lathes forever
Hard to see why people are getting all exited about such a simple subject
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
John
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Hey guys,
Disagreements are a part of life, but let's keep the flames away. I am asking we present opposing views without attacking each other. OK?
Eric
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Lads
I believe what i read from all that was being written and offered was a classic case of " Quod erat demonstrandum" from there perspective, it worked for them and they were willing to share there opinions and proofs.
Here's mine, I don't like the MT system because what has already been stated but i over come it who care's, i have even stuck fag papers over the little buggers to stop the slip, my point is i have to work with what i have and so do allot of other people, so MT tapers in my book is a negative.
R8 is a great system, its one of a few designs that work as it should and designed for, its very common globally which makes tooling reasonably priced, saying that i believe in the UK its harder to find machinery which accepts R8 arbors, and the OP is from England so that is a consideration. so R8 is a positive in my book.
ER system, have no idea so i have no comment.
I think its a duty for the experienced members of our club to give a major consideration in what its like to Be new in this hobby and how much of a major disadvantage it is, they have no concept in what it takes to machine even the most simplest of jobs, they don't realize the difference of a column mill/driil or knee fixed head v-way system because they have never done it, they have no clue what a QCTP has to offer over a lamppost design blaa blaa and so on.
90% of the members on this forum do a smashing job in sharing there wealth without being condescending, I have over the years of being a member here have noticed talented people explain the simplest things to novices where suddenly the light bulb ignites, when most people of knowledge here answer to a posting they understand the OP skill level and advise accordingly. I read this on this post.
The OP is new, he is asking opinions to which he received, what ever road he chooses he will never be satisfied with his purchase because through his own learning curve his acquired knowledge will have advanced and problems with tooling, accuracy, reliability will surface to a level he does not know right now, there is no substitute for hands on experience he will surly find this out i wish him luck, my advice is stick with it as it is a very rewarding hobby.
So now you know where i am coming from i will sum up.
Fergus, although i find your postings interesting i sometimes squint to find a hint of useful information, i know you have allot to offer try to de-clutter it.
Miner, like i stated the op is new, I doubt he is concerned in making the balls in an angular contact race square, the guy just want to buy a milling machine.
Happy Days........ Anthony.
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I have had good results from (Amadeal (Hugh)
The Chester looks like a Weiss mill 16 same as mine.but includes a stand.
consider if you want to put the mill on a bench to conserve space.
I my mill daily and never even had to do any service,other than clean and lube.
I am not keen on a tilting column,fixed is best,with the tilting head,although I use this feature rarely.
John
Spain
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There are a lot more economical and understandable ways to simply say:
An R-8 form is designed to hold by the action of the tension on the draw screw, while an MT is designed to to hold unsupported. Therefore an MT has a shallower and longer taper.
When a draw screw is used with a Morse taper (and it often isn't) and tightened too much, the taper can seize and be difficult to remove. Likewise dirt or scratches can cause seizure, or on the other hand, the operator may over tighten a damaged taper because its wedging action has been diminished.
However, if clean and in good shape, and with light screw tension, or where no screw is used, they can serve well, long term. Their advantage is that they are compact compared to an R-8, at least in the smaller sizes, and they can be quickly attached. A place where this works very well is in a tailstock of a lathe.
An R-8, will be easier to release, and can be tensioned further, since it is specifically designed to close with a tension screw. Those are qualities appreciated in a larger milling machine.
MT tapers in milling appeared prior to the invention of the R-8, but were frequently seen on smaller workshop mills even after because of the economy and convenience of using the same taper for small lathes. Interchangeability.
This was important because many home workshops aren't funded by profits from machining, but by the ability to save occasional pennies in a pig shaped bank while raising a family. With careful work, small machines and limited equipment have turned out remarkable work over the last century or two.
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I should have mentioned that an R-8 also has a slot that mates with a key in the spindle bore to prevent rotation, while an MT does not.
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There are a lot more economical and understandable ways to simply say:
An R-8 form is designed to hold by the action of the tension on the draw screw, while an MT is designed to to hold unsupported. Therefore an MT has a shallower and longer taper.
When a draw screw is used with a Morse taper (and it often isn't) and tightened too much, the taper can seize and be difficult to remove. Likewise dirt or scratches can cause seizure, or on the other hand, the operator may over tighten a damaged taper because its wedging action has been diminished.
However, if clean and in good shape, and with light screw tension, or where no screw is used, they can serve well, long term. Their advantage is that they are compact compared to an R-8, at least in the smaller sizes, and they can be quickly attached. A place where this works very well is in a tailstock of a lathe.
An R-8, will be easier to release, and can be tensioned further, since it is specifically designed to close with a tension screw. Those are qualities appreciated in a larger milling machine.
MT tapers in milling appeared prior to the invention of the R-8, but were frequently seen on smaller workshop mills even after because of the economy and convenience of using the same taper for small lathes. Interchangeability.
This was important because many home workshops aren't funded by profits from machining, but by the ability to save occasional pennies in a pig shaped bank while raising a family. With careful work, small machines and limited equipment have turned out remarkable work over the last century or two.
I've been reading stuff around this MT vs R8 debate for quite a while, since i've been in the market for a mill for just as long (as in, i'd love one but it'll be a while before I can afford the sized one i'd like), and this is the best explanation of the two tapers i've seen yet. Most stuff i've read just implies that morse taper is generally inferior to R8 and mentions the locking thing, so my assumption till now was that they were just an old fashioned standard that stuck. So it's interesting to hear the pros and cons put so clearly.
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Thanks for interesting and useful messages that have been posted on here however I've not been using madmodder too much over the last 6 months due to getting attacked by negative messages from self proclaimed pros and the random negative tangent this thread took made me realise why.
So long for now.
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My 2 cents for what its worth..
Your asking about buying a milling machine.. What taper it uses is pointless to look at.. sure it could be convenient using a self releasing taper. But when it comes down to it.. most tapers can have adapters and converters attached to them... I use W20 with a homemade ER32 collet holder and MK2 taper converter.... My lathe uses MK3 and 4 and D1-4... In the end.. i just make the tool i need to convert it to the tool i wanna hold in the machine...
When it comes down to machines.. How much space do you have.. Floor space and headroom.. I went and bought a Aciera F3 machine cause it has a small footprint and isnt 2.5m high. I have a Optimum BF20 machine that is stated "german" but is in fact made in china (same as the weiss machines).. And it sucks.. Its a good candidate for cnc conversions, but not any heavy milling..
The heaviers series of these chinese machines is prob. a good bet for a machine. The 626 series machines seems to be in good use, but need som roof clearing.. in my case i have a shop that is 1.80m in height.. Im 1.78.. i fit exactly inside the basement ;D
I suggest you look at your space available, look at a machine fitting that space and disregard the rest.. Ease of access to tooling is a convenience not a requirement - it can always be fitted if you really want to - and got a welder, sledgehammer or a shop press.. ;) *troll warning*
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There is no magic - black or otherwise in this Morse Taper lark. I'm surprised that no one has been minded to tell beginners what it is all about. So let a bloke who came out of a sh1t row in a downtrodden mining village at the age of 14 after a wartime education explain. Yes, folks- it explains a lot.
Morse wasn't this masonic policeman bloke in the gleaming spires of Oxford with a 'adopted' Lewis son but was a bloke with a simple sine bar of 10 inches( you might have a 5 inch one) and a set of gauge blocks. It's the sort of kit that every self respecting fitter and turner makes up- sometime. The concept is quite ancient. Most put it at Pythagoras or even Euclid but it is a lot lot older.
All that Morse did was stick a 1/8th bit of gauge block under one end of his 10 inch bit of stuff and you have all the Morse Tapers.
But- there is a cloud- enter the village idiot who cannot measure a simple thing like that- and the once very simple angles have been buggered about- to become accepted standards.
That's the simple truth- nothing more.
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Hey Norman, you only just began your explanation! You didn't say that for some inexplicable reason Morse didn't get the same taper on all of his tapers. There is also a little known taper that is a 4 1/2 morse taper that lives in the nose of some Colchester lathes.
http://littlemachineshop.com/Reference/Tapers.php
Morse tapers are a fact of life, I fully understand why anyone would want to go for R8, but it all boils down to what you've got, and what you can get. On the French second hand market, morse tapers abound, followed by SA40 and SA30. Bridgeports are rare beasts here so there isn't a lot of R8.
Regards, Matthew
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Hi Matt,
Back to basics- sorry!
Forget everything that is assumed and go back to the workbench. You have a sine bar- a standard one and a plain 10" one and a box of Jo Blocks. Nothing more apart from a schoolboy reckoner or a slide rule.
Your exercise is to create an angle- nothing more. Your 10" length becomes the hypotenuse. The gauge block chosen is a simple one - an eighth and that is Morse.
All that Morse did after that was provide easily found sizes- in Imperial.
Sadly, someone balled the issue up.
I would agree that is does appear a simple solution- and therefore shouldn't be right.
Oddly, maths IS or was simple stuff- usually mucked about by some clever arse.
I was discussing navigation with a bunch of RAF navigators- you know the sort of thing- flashing lights and whatever in multi million things and I mentioned that equally accurate measurement was done with a few sticks a bit of rope-- and the planet Venus. I had a helluva job missing the Sidewinder missile!
Anyway, I hope that this was interesting and who knows- believable.
Regards
Norm
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Hi BBB, I bet you wish you had never asked now eh ? :palm: I feel sorry for any newcomers to the hobby because whenever they ask a simple question, every other post will give a different answer so how the hell are they going to decide which bit of advice to take. I started with a Boxford lathe bought in bits from the scrapyard and with NO prior knowledge put the thing together and played around with bits of scrap metal, and made lots of mistakes, but learned a lot on the way. I next bought a small mill and did the same. I now (after many years ) have a Chester UK DB10GVS lathe, And a Chester UK Champion 20V mill, and am only now starting to turn out some reasonably accurate work. (see my fibre optic clock thread) I will also say that when I first started I was unencumbered with access to the internet and so spared all the conflicting advice, however I will say that when you do get started the forums can be useful for finding different ways of doing things.
Cheers Dek. :med:
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I agree Neotech, Well, besides the availability of a choice of R8 and Morse tapers, which originally I merely mentioned in trying to describe the differences between two machines the OP was asking about, there were other considerations mentioned.
They were expressed in a way that merely put some basic facts out there, as well as a couple of gentle preferences on my part about my own mill, clearly labeled as personal.
For some reason only known to the gentleman on the handle, a sledgehammer was later brought out and swung wildly in all directions, over his own taper preferences and his disdain for those who are happy with theirs. This has apparently led to a long time and valued member here giving up on the forum as a hostile entity.
I hope that people might back up a bit, recognize that the idea here of a social group dedicated to pleasurable madness around modding should allow for a variety of approaches to that. And such an odd and unusual stew needs to be seasoned with admiration, support, and respect. I mean, do you want life to be fun, or a misery?
Always an important question to ask yourself, whatever you do. Otherwise..... well, I'm sure you know the answer.
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The choice is anyone's!
I have always followed a logical progression.
My lathes have always been with Morse Tapers at each end- starting with No 1's and O's but now 2MT.
In fact, I have never used -or found any other funny variations- apart from my watchmaking stuff on Pultras etc
Consequently, I made and bought tooling which would fit and my milling machines- which are only lathes turned 90 degrees are MT and interchange accessories. It goes a step further, all my tool and cutter grinders have tooling which interchanges with lathes, mills and whatever and I have the dividing heads and rotary tables all with MT tapers.
So I can swop about- with impunity whatever that means.
My little workshop is small, it is a hobby not a factory and works admirably.
If I got it wrong- it's too late now
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Your exercise is to create an angle- nothing more. Your 10" length becomes the hypotenuse. The gauge block chosen is a simple one - an eighth and that is Morse.
All that Morse did after that was provide easily found sizes- in Imperial.
Sadly, someone balled the issue up.
Yes and that person was Morse himself because he couldn't replicate the same taper on different diameters, that's why the difference.
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I recall that way back that someone actually spent a great deal of time researching
'Who was Mr Morse?'
If my Pelmanism is holding out, no records of Morse's company emerged in the US Official records search.
Perhaps you could quote from the prime documents?
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No point.
If George Thomas didn't quote it then it wasn't true.............
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Stephen A. Morse, founder of the Morse Twist Drill & Machine Company in Massachusetts from 1864 to 1990. He developed his tapers for his twist drills.
Not a lot of people know that.....
Andy
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Or, you can type into your browser "Stephen A. Morse" and find out when and where he was born, went to school, what he invented, what his numerous companies were called (American Standard, etc.), etc. and some other facts.
Mosey
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Well, there you are, then. I initially found him in a 1900 engineering book.
Andy
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I haven't run away lads, I'm still here and taking it all in.
As far as the taper subject is concerned I'd like to thank the few people who took the time to explain the workings of the two main types. But im pretty sure that any system that has been around as long asit has cant be all that bad, I see this first machine in the same way a beginner musician might view their first guitar, buy a mid range brand to start learning and then if you find you are any good you can buy a Martin.
I think I'll be going for the Chester 20v, it's the right size and price for my current needs.
However, after a short visit to my workshop this afternoon I have decided reluctantly that the mill will have to wait, the two inches of water covering the floor has indicated the need for a new roof before autumn (fall for those across the pond) and being a 5M x10M timber structure it ain't gonna be cheap. :(
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Or, you can type into your browser "Stephen A. Morse" and find out when and where he was born, went to school, what he invented, what his numerous companies were called (American Standard, etc.), etc. and some other facts.
Mosey
But there is no record of Morse ever filing a Patent! I am ashamed to admit that I was teasing because there is an article 'Who was Mr Morse?'
Seemingly, his only recorded patent was for a twist drill but not one with a Morse Taper. :doh:
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Some people have better skills with search engines than others.
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Not me! It was the daughter of someone whom you know very well.
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I think it is good to help someone choose a suitable (milling) machine. Honest, sincere, and truly helpful in intent. The rest is best left out.
I have benefited from the information here and on other forums, thanks.
Mosey :clap: :clap: :)
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....
However, after a short visit to my workshop this afternoon I have decided reluctantly that the mill will have to wait, the two inches of water covering the floor has indicated the need for a new roof before autumn (fall for those across the pond) and being a 5M x10M timber structure it ain't gonna be cheap. :(
bUGGA!
Does the whole roof needs complete rebuild?
Some yars ago I had trouble eith one roof: About once every 5-6 years during the autumn storm water got in. I checkked the roof and found nothing alarming. On closer inspection I found out that the whole roof was missing seals under roof cap! Stong winds forsed the rain up and it went under the roof cap and dripped in. There was easy cure: About 30 cm strip of breathable material that had adhessive strips on both sides. it was sold in 5 m rolls. Took best part of the morning to pull all roofnails out of roof caps, wash the top, attach the seal strip and mount the roof caps. I used screws instead of nails. Next year I washed and paintted the roof. Hasn't been leakking since.
Pekka
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....
However, after a short visit to my workshop this afternoon I have decided reluctantly that the mill will have to wait, the two inches of water covering the floor has indicated the need for a new roof before autumn (fall for those across the pond) and being a 5M x10M timber structure it ain't gonna be cheap. :(
bUGGA!
Does the whole roof needs complete rebuild?
Some yars ago I had trouble eith one roof: About once every 5-6 years during the autumn storm water got in. I checkked the roof and found nothing alarming. On closer inspection I found out that the whole roof was missing seals under roof cap! Stong winds forsed the rain up and it went under the roof cap and dripped in. There was easy cure: About 30 cm strip of breathable material that had adhessive strips on both sides. it was sold in 5 m rolls. Took best part of the morning to pull all roofnails out of roof caps, wash the top, attach the seal strip and mount the roof caps. I used screws instead of nails. Next year I washed and paintted the roof. Hasn't been leakking since.
Pekka
the whole roof needs doing by the looks of it.
its currently a single slope 15degree roof made from 15mm OSB and covered with heavy tar felt. looks like the felt has become pourus and the water is just passing through the roof in several places, te OSB boards are delaminating and starting to bow.
I'm planning on replacing it with heavier beams and sheeting it with profiled metal sheets. ive had to cover the lathe and welders with waterproof tarps for now until i can get all the materials here. wish it would stop raining :(
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Does the whole roof needs complete rebuild?
the whole roof needs doing by the looks of it.
its currently a single slope 15degree roof made from 15mm OSB and covered with heavy tar felt. looks like the felt has become pourus and the water is just passing through the roof in several places, te OSB boards are delaminating and starting to bow.
I'm planning on replacing it with heavier beams and sheeting it with profiled metal sheets. ive had to cover the lathe and welders with waterproof tarps for now until i can get all the materials here. wish it would stop raining :(
Damn-it. Looks like it needs to be redone it. We use here some tar felt too, but really needs one layer on underneath of it. If the OBS is giving up then it really might be a good idea to rethink the whole roof. I don't know your local regulations and climate, but here it is most of the time compulsory to put layer moisture barrier of and trusses to separate these two layers about 50 mm.
Not sure how this is called there (underlayment, moisture barrier, under cladding?), but something like this:
http://www.roofaquaguard.com/installation/RoofAquaGuard-UDL.htm
Hope you'll get it sorted with least damage to your plans. But it will be nicer to have the building first sorted out and then contemplate in peace which mill to get.
Pekka
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Or, you can type into your browser "Stephen A. Morse" and find out when and where he was born, went to school, what he invented, what his numerous companies were called (American Standard, etc.), etc. and some other facts.
Mosey
But there is no record of Morse ever filing a Patent! I am ashamed to admit that I was teasing because there is an article 'Who was Mr Morse?'
Seemingly, his only recorded patent was for a twist drill but not one with a Morse Taper. :doh:
Just thought you'd like to know that Morse is listed as having 26 patents. If you'd like, I can send you the list.
Mosey
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so a set like this would be a good buy,
http://www.chestermachinetools.com/er-collet-chuck-sets-4523-p.asp
Might be a bit late but would strongly advise not to go for them, they slip like no tomorrow or cutter drops no matter how much you tighten that stupid ER style collet up. An improvement is from Gloster tooling where they sell a bearing type nut but still suffer with excessive slow change overs.
Scrapped many a job wasting 10's of hours at work, same with the expensive Wabeco ER ones on the cnc - bang £30 cutter gone.
Considering most of the Chinese tools are made in same place rebadged, I can honestly say the two full sets of Arc finger MT collets grip in both my mills, the one or two Chester I have do not. Easy to remove one spanner like R8 and no loss of height.
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Agree with Jonny, in that it is a more rigid set up with the finger collets and no loss of height as i mentioned before, but then you are pulling the collet hard into
the spindle taper and are likely need some force to release it. I haven't had an ER collet slip yet except when using it to Turn / thread small parts in the lathe. Although you need 2 spanners to loosen it, unscrewing the nut will then release the collet completely. ER collets also have a range of 1mm which means you can hold metric or imperial although best to hold the actual size as imperial will usually be just into the next size up. You can also use the ER ones in Stephensons block collet fixtures - or you could if unlike me you ordered the correct size :-/
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I wonder why the set you reference above is in 2 mm increments, as compared to most others. That may be the problem. I have 2 different inexpensive import series, 1/16" increments, and have never had a slip! They tighten with barely a turn of the wrench. Of course you know that collets come in varying levels of precision/quality/cost. Maybe that has some bearing on their success. ER spring collets are very common in professional shops because they work quickly and well in my humble opinion.
Mosey
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Mine were from China on ebay, cost about £20! Good enough for my needs.
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Just thought you'd like to know that Morse is listed as having 26 patents. If you'd like, I can send you the list.
Mosey
[/quote]
Thank you but it's all ended up as non starter.
Of course, it has meant that model engineering has lost one very valuable contributor.
The contributor may be very ill but he continued to give the benefit of experience despite considerable set backs.
So have a happy time discussing the merits of leaky roofs.
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I see no discussion of the merits of leaky roofs, rather a mention of why the OP, a new member, recently welcomed here presently cannot afford a milling machine, and a supportive reply or two.
Not sure who is referred to as being lost to model engineering.
And the single troll style reply in this thread was supported by only one poster as "honest", if that type of thing did have a lasting discouraging effect on anyone.
Responsibility and accuracy are as much a part of discussing engineering as they are in engineering itself.
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so a set like this would be a good buy,
http://www.chestermachinetools.com/er-collet-chuck-sets-4523-p.asp
Might be a bit late but would strongly advise not to go for them, they slip like no tomorrow or cutter drops no matter how much you tighten that stupid ER style collet up. An improvement is from Gloster tooling where they sell a bearing type nut but still suffer with excessive slow change overs.
Scrapped many a job wasting 10's of hours at work, same with the expensive Wabeco ER ones on the cnc - bang £30 cutter gone.
Considering most of the Chinese tools are made in same place rebadged, I can honestly say the two full sets of Arc finger MT collets grip in both my mills, the one or two Chester I have do not. Easy to remove one spanner like R8 and no loss of height.
My son was taking a good bite out of some aluminum with a r8 collet that I tightened good, or that is what I thought but I watched the cutter getting forced (screwed out) as he climb milled.
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ER's are now virtually the defacto in the UK and Europe for collet holding systems.
Company just up the road from me does Aerospace work for Airbus, mainly big wing spars. They now have four 5 axis DMG milling machines at nearly 1/2 a million pounds per pop plus all the other machines, bed mill with 3 metres travel for one.
They run virtually all ER32's with a few 20's and 16's where space is tight.
Do you think for one minute that they would adapt a system that's flawed with cutters coming loose when they have the funds to buy virtually any system out there. Remember they wreck a job and it's into the tens of thousands, not like us ruining a £4 bit of Scrapbinium ™
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not like us ruining a £4 bit of Scrapbinium ™
£4 ! ! ! your a bit reckless with your money, i try not to spend more than 3p3farthings on a bit of scrapbinium ;-)
Mike
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Mugs there are better more cost effective and productive methods, well thought out. Hate to think of the hourly rate and waste in downtime.
First four that came up no ER in sight.
These do F1 and aerospace.
When you ask for a tool holding system you are automatically offered some form of ER for the home user, people being people anything else has to be searched and or asked for. Clarkson much better at least they don't drop but hav eto use threaded cutters.
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Some very nice machines there
But not quite home workshop stuff
John
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I see no discussion of the merits of leaky roofs, rather a mention of why the OP, a new member, recently welcomed here presently cannot afford a milling machine, and a supportive reply or two.
Not sure who is referred to as being lost to model engineering.
And the single troll style reply in this thread was supported by only one poster as "honest", if that type of thing did have a lasting discouraging effect on anyone.
Responsibility and accuracy are as much a part of discussing engineering as they are in engineering itself.
I second this post.
I am afraid some of this has sprawled way off what the OP was asking.
I am going to ask to leave this be. Let's see how we can help bigbadbugga and not prove who is right about Morse and his patents.
Eric
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Let's see how we can help bigbadbugga
Well i've got some spare nails ?
Mike
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I see no discussion of the merits of leaky roofs, rather a mention of why the OP, a new member, recently welcomed here presently cannot afford a milling machine, and a supportive reply or two.
Not sure who is referred to as being lost to model engineering.
And the single troll style reply in this thread was supported by only one poster as "honest", if that type of thing did have a lasting discouraging effect on anyone.
Responsibility and accuracy are as much a part of discussing engineering as they are in engineering itself.
I second this post.
I am afraid some of this has sprawled way off what the OP was asking.
I am going to ask to leave this be. Let's see how we can help bigbadbugga and not prove who is right about Morse and his patents.
Eric
Well done Eric
Lets keep it nice
John
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Just to update you guys..
Roof materials are being delivered tomorrow, cost just shy of £1000, but considering the workshop is 16' x 26' it's not so bad. I've gone for profile metal sheets on 8x2 beams.
Now that's paid for I can start saving for the mill again, and thanks to all of you who have helped me to decide. I'm pretty sure I'll be going with this one......
http://www.amadeal.co.uk/acatalog/R8_Spindle.html
If all goes well I should be able to order it in time for Santa to deliver this year. :)
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Now that's paid for I can start saving for the mill again, and thanks to all of you who have helped me to decide. I'm pretty sure I'll be going with this one......
http://www.amadeal.co.uk/acatalog/R8_Spindle.html
If all goes well I should be able to order it in time for Santa to deliver this year. :)
Personally i'd see if it's available with a morse taper quill. :D :)
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:hammer:
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:doh: I went for this: http://www.amadeal.co.uk/acatalog/XJ20.html (http://www.amadeal.co.uk/acatalog/XJ20.html) when it was£650
Poor quality but can get by.
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Try Amadeal.co.uk
I bought the Weiss 16 some 5 years ago.
Never had a bit of trouble and I use the machine daily.
I fitted DRO's on the X,Y axis Igaging
no problems
take a look at the tap holder i recently made mostly milling operations.
John
Spain