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I've been casting around for a CNC lathe a bit bigger and better equipped than the Eagland Chipturn that I've recently rebuilt and I stubbed my toe on a Traub TND 350G with a dead Mitsubishi TX8F control. Weighing in at 4055 kgs with I believe an 18Kw main spindle, an auxillary spindle of similar power, a 12 position tool post, and even a 'C' axis on the main spindle it's quite a monster! I thought I might try replacing the controller with a LinuxCNC box, but I'll have a go first at repairing the TX8F as it seems a very capable control, if a bit obscure when it comes to finding information.
It only just squeezed into the space left in my workshop, but there is room to work round it and the loo door ALMOST fully opens <G>
If anyone knows these machines or especially the Mitsubishi controller I'd be keen to hear from you
A few pictures for your amusement
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A few more pictures!
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Impressive bit of kit awemawson :thumbup:
Now have machine envy :coffee:
Rob
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Holy Cow! :jaw:
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One thing to check -- I mean this is a totally off the wall, stab in the dark suggestion --
Some old nonvolatile memory chips had an internal battery -- in the chip itself, and the battery had a service life of about 10 years -- Texas instruments made them, I think.
Check for these in whatever kind of memory section this beast has.
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Impressive bit of kit awemawson :thumbup:
Now have machine envy :coffee:
Rob
..he...he .... it even has an air conditioning unit built into the end cabinet to keep the electronics comfy ! Just moving the swarf conveyor into place took four of us and that with machine skates.
Rob :No need for machine envy until (if) I get it working - up to that point it's a potential liability.
To be honest it's a bit scary contemplating turning it on - certainly don't want to until I know a bit more about the controller, and how to disable the (enormous) axis drives - don't want things slamming around and self destructing.
Vtsteam: memory back up on the controller is by built in battery pack - seems boot memory is in eeproms, but I've not dug too deeply yet
Fortunately I have a floppy disk with the machine parameters in a win readable file which is a major bonus
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My first job would be to back that floppy up!
Nice looking machine - that mess of electronics would scare the life out of me :)
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Well if you don't manage to get it running it will make a decent pig pen..........................................
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Wow a floppy disc....Whats one of them? :D :D :D
Best do a back up as suggested by Pete....
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I also have the parameters on 1" paper tape AND the means to read it :ddb:
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Vtsteam: memory back up on the controller is by built in battery pack - seems boot memory is in eeproms, but I've not dug too deeply yet
I just mentioned the internal battery backup chips because they caused an Anilam Crusader controller to fail at a place where I worked. I figured the problem out after the mill had been used only manually for 2 years. Replaced the chips with new ones and the controller worked again
They do appear to be eeproms, but their construction is that of a battery backed up static ram.
Anyway, thought I'd mention it. Check the chip ID carefully against datasheets to make sure, if you can.
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Holy Cow!
That is tractor. Are you mooving in?
Does it has a chiller for coolant and machine temperature stabilization?
Even floor has to over 15 cm with two layers of rebar!
PekkaNF
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Fortunately a highly professional moving team shifted it - they were delivering a replacement machine to the people I bought it from and had to shift it anyway, they just put it at my place rather than their warehouse. Huge articulated lorry carrying 10 ton forklift and two very helpful and skilled chaps.
As far as I can tell the air conditioner just keeps the electronics cool, but I've yet to open all the access hatches to have a look see.
The floor is 6" of C35 high strength concrete with weld mesh embedded floating on 50mm of polystyrene insulation and hasn't moved with all the abuse I've given it in the last five years so far!
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You are set then.
Local building authority here would have a field day if I lugged into my garage anything of that nature. But I only have 400VAC/25A (Wires, feed and gear made for 63A) threephase.
Is that only a "new hobby" or you are going seriously into production?
Pekka
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...he...he 415V three phase at 160 amps per phase here with the 11kv to 415v transformer in my wife's vegetable plot ! AND the nearest neighbour is half a mile away.
Certainly not a business - I'm retired and don't want that sort of pressure any more- just having fun in my dotage :beer:
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...he...he 415V three phase at 160 amps per phase here with the 11kv to 415v transformer in my wife's vegetable plot ! AND the nearest neighbour is half a mile away.
Certainly not a business - I'm retired and don't want that sort of pressure any more- just having fun in my dotage :beer:
Yes, but does the electricity meter take shillings (aka 5p coins) or is there a slot in the controller where you just plug your debit card?!?! :doh: :doh:
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Well I got them to install three phase in exchange for access for re-cabling their poles & transformer so that was f.o.c. and I got them to put in a heavier supply so when eventually I re-commission my 100kva induction furnace I can run off the grid rather than run my 100kva generator as I did at the last place we moved from. Obviously the running costs are significant :bugeye: if used often but in reality it's fairly infrequent. :beer:
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I have this vision of you sat with an enormous pile of 5p pieces trying to put them in the meter fast enough.
Russell
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I have this vision of you sat with an enormous pile of 5p pieces trying to put them in the meter fast enough.
Russell
That's what the conveyor is for...
Regards,
Tony
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Have you tried Steve Cox on 07836 736496, he runs landylift in West Yorks, but his other job is repairing CNC machinery.
Phil
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I'm aware of him, but I didn't know his expertise in cnc repair - thanks for the tip.
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Rob :No need for machine envy until (if) I get it working - up to that point it's a potential liability.
I am sure you will get it up and running , do you have a plan B if you cant get the original controller to graft ?
Rob
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I'm glad it's not just me who buys crazy kit.... nice lathe there, I am suitably jealous, and wondering which of my parents I must sacrifice* in order to purchase something similar....
Good luck getting it running, I can't wait to see it turning something massive out...
* Kidding, of course. It'd have to be Mum, she's the only one with any money!
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Rob: Plan 'B' is to create a controller using http://www.linuxcnc.org/ but I'd much rather fix the current controller if poss as it has lots of bells and whistles I'd have to emulate. Plan 'C' is to break it which is obviously a last resort but would probably be quite profitable (how much do 18KW inverters and servos go for !!)
Adev: I have a long history of buying silly things !!! It all started 30 years ago with a three engined three seater Hoverair Hoverhawke hovercraft http://www.landairandsea.com/exhibits/Hoverhawk which was what started me buying machines to make bits to fix it.
Yesterday I grafted the Mitsubishi controller back into the beast, and managed to locate for certain all the connections to it bar two.
This morning I've buzzed out the two unidentified connections and got them in the right places. Also connected up the swarf conveyor (3 ph motor drive, HP coolant pump, LP coolant pump) and also the hydraulic power pack and am having a cup of coffee prior to taking the plunge and connecting mains to it. If the grid drops out in 20 mins blame me !
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Haven't spotted any mushroom clouds on the horizon yet. Did the brown smoke come out?
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Well so far no drama. Wired it up to a 32A 3ph socket, made sure estop button was on, closed my eyes and switched on. Fans whirred, relays clicked, leds illuminated all over the place in the control cabinets. Pressed the 'nc on' button (power to the controller) and sure enough the control powered up, blinked a few leds on its cards then sat there. Nothing on the monitor, blank, zilch, nowt! So now I need to pull out the monitor and scope its drive signals to see if it's being spoken to, or if its rudely ignoring the controller!
Sort of progress as we had no slamming around of the axis drives or spindles going into warp drive.
Time for lunch and a bit of thinking now- extracting the monitor looks to be an adventure.
:beer:
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...he...he 415V three phase at 160 amps per phase here with the 11kv to 415v transformer in my wife's vegetable plot !......
Ah - this makes sense now - there was some confusion as to why OFGEM reported a looming power crisis (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19842401) for Britain
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Well DMION you should be ok on the Isle of Man - after all you have that huge overshot water wheel :med:
So I managed to extract the display without too much hassle and scope its interface. Usual issue of cables not long enough to put is somewhere sensible for test. Two connectors Mains and a modular one with 10 poles - no active signals on any of them, so as the cathode heater is glowing gently, and there is a red led gleaming on the main board I reckon the problem lies with the controller.
I desperately need to make friendly contact with someone with knowledge of the Mitsubishi 320 controls. Really need to get it put on a test rig. Traub would do it but my pockets are not deep enough for that !
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Well, major progress on the documentation front: I've managed to get manuals for most of the elements of the control as installed allbeit as installed in more standard configurations. Also got fairly detailed manuals for the main (18Kw) and opposing (11 Kw) spindle drives and the axis drives.
From this I've managed to work out in my mind which bits do what (it's an odd set up with bits of rom and ram dotted all over the place). The main CPU board as well as its 32 bit microprocessor has a dedicated subservient cpu dedicated to servicing the axis and spindle drives - and has shared ram through which they communicate. On board this cpu board is ram that holds the users CNC code. There is a ram card with battery back up that holds all the parameters specific to the machine tool. There are a pair of rom boards that give the controller its basic personality, and one of them takes an extra chunk of rom plugged into it that sets up the onboard PLC (Programmable Logic Controller) used to establish the 'ladder logic' for controlling the various functions such as tool turret rotation, parts catcher in or out etc. Masses of digital inputs and outputs on this controller.
I have a very strong suspicion that one (or both) of two cards in the control are faulty and at huge expense have sourced some in America that hopefully will be arriving in a few days time.
In the mean time while I'm waiting I'm doing a 'physiological tidy up' getting the wiring back into its correct trunking, sorting out loose wires and this evening actually giving it a 'wash & brush up' . I find it far more motivating working on a clean machine than poking around muck and grime.
What fabulous stuff Sugar Soap is. The cabinet paintwork was covered in years of baked on grime, but is cleaning up a treat with a bucket of warm sugar soapy water and a bit of elbow grease. Never used it previously on machines, just prior to painting and decorating - definitely stuff to keep in the workshop.
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It'll be very satisfying to hear that puppy power up when it does. Cheers for posting it up.
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It'll be very satisfying to hear that puppy power up when it does. Cheers for posting it up.
I live in hope Pete, but as John S said in his usual encouraging way - it'll make a fine pen for my pigs if I fail to sort it !
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Well I'm rooting for you awemason. If the controller doesn't pan out, though, didn't you mention a LinuxCNC box first post?
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Well I'm rooting for you awemason.
SNIP
Me too. Keep it graceful, keep one hand in your pocket and keep us informed, please.
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Well I'm rooting for you awemason. If the controller doesn't pan out, though, didn't you mention a LinuxCNC box first post?
Thanks VTSTEAM. Yes LinuxCNC is the alternative, but I'm not sure it would cope with the amount of Input / Output there is on this beast. There are 128 inputs and 109 outputs not counting the specialist interfaces to the spindle and axis drives.
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If you have PLC controls in there i'm sure something using something like MODBUS would get working with linuxcnc?
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If you have PLC controls in there i'm sure something using something like MODBUS would get working with linuxcnc?
The PLC is a logical function of the controller rather than a separate item. The PLC has it's own ROM representing the logical ladder network, but the same processor that runs the G code runs the PLC. The processor runs on an interrupt timer chain, highest priority being given to reading fleeting sensors, next priority to axis and spindle events, and lowest priority to the man / machine interface.
If I don't manage to resurrect the original controller I may well have to install several PLCs, possibly linked using the TCP/IP variant of MODBUS to get the number of points read and processed in the timescale.
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Haven't spotted any mushroom clouds on the horizon yet. Did the brown smoke come out?
No brown smoke, but Andrew has taken to wearing his brown cords. Nuff said.
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Well a bit more progress today while I am waiting for spares to arrive. In the control cabinets there was a mess of wiring all pulled out of the trunking, and a single pole toggle switch dangling on the base uninsulated, unlabelled, and certainly unloved by me! Spent some time tracing it's wires. One end went to an axis overload sensor, the other to a terminal with nothing on it. So it was doing precisely nothing and is now removed. Also fixed the alert light that sits on top of the cabinet and lets you know when (presumably) a cycle is finished. Obviously been sheared off in some previous move. Quick turning job to make a new mounting, replace the very odd shaped squat 24 v 5 watt two pin bulb (amazingly I had a spare!). Also managed to get all the loose wiring and cable runs back into the right trunking - it least it now looks good even if it doesn't work :lol:
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....- it least it now looks good even if it doesn't work :lol:
a bit like the chap who sits on the train and seems to fill in the crossword with alarming speed - but when he gets off, someone looks at the discarded paper and sees that all the squares have been filled with rhubarb or supacalafragalisticexpialadocious !
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The first steps lead eventually to the last steps to completion for any project. It feels good to bring order out of what is supposed to be defunct. And determining and organizing wiring is essential on something of this complexity. I think you wanted a big challenge, and I think you're up to it.
This is exactly what being a mad modder is all about. :beer:
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Still awaiting spares so a bit of photographic documentation:
First the cleaning up, then the tidying up of wiring
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Next I need to work out what this little board does. It is labelled 'UMSHALTUNG' which I think means switchover or changeover which would make sense as it seems to take in the 1024 and 90000 point spindle encoders and route them to the CNC controller and the AC servo drives - if you look carefully at the cabinet photos, there are two of the little beasts, and they don't seem to feature in the wiring diagrams.
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Next I need to work out what this little board does. It is labelled 'UMSHALTUNG' which I think means switchover or changeover which would make sense as it seems to take in the 1024 and 90000 point spindle encoders and route them to the CNC controller and the AC servo drives - if you look carefully at the cabinet photos, there are two of the little beasts, and they don't seem to feature in the wiring diagrams.
Ausgang = Exit (ouitput)
Impulsgeber http://www.dict.cc/german-english/Impulsgeber.html
Regards, Matthew
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Thanks Matthew.
I'd rather assumed the orange two pin connector was power coming in, but assuming it's powered down the 'Honda' connectors from either the NC controller or AC servo then probably it in fact drives the little opto coupler to its left. The other chips are data selectors and line driver receivers. So I reckon probably it just acts as a multi-pole switch routing one or other of the encoders as required. I know that when the main spindle is acting as a 'C' axis it uses the 90000 line encoder and a lower powered (2HP) servo motor, and when used as a conventional turning spindle it uses the 1024 line encoder and the 18.5 KW motor.
Andrew
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Enjoying this thread so far, thanks. Keep up the progress reports!
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Thanks for the encouragement Sparky.
I did a bit more unnecessary tarting up this afternoon as the electronics hasn't arrived yet. If you look at the following picture there is rubber edging trim around a drop down door and the horizontal / vertical panel in front of the swarf conveyor. It had rotted and gone all sticky with oil, and I was able to get identical stuff (3 different profiles used there) from http://www.woolies-trim.co.uk/
Amazingly fast and helpful service as well.
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Andrew
I have been following along since you first posted this. It is nice to see that you have such a positive attitude about the whole process. By checking it out and cleaning it up as you have been will help you to understand the operation of the beast and will pay big dividends down the road when trouble shooting problems. Thanks for sharing this project with us. :D :D
Cheers :beer:
Don
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Andrew
One other thing that I want to point out to you and hopefully others may notice. IMHO the size that you use (640 x 480) for your photo's is close to perfect. It makes it very easy to click the photo and view it without haveing to scroll all over the screen just to see it. This is a good example for other members (both old and new) to follow that are having problems with photos.
(http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh490/DSquire/Main-2/Emoticons/ThankYou.gif) ANDREW
If anyone needs help with photos etc. get in touch with me here, PM or email and I'll do what I can to help you out.
Cheers :beer:
Don
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Well thankie kindly sir!
When I first posted here I made the mistake of posting oversize, and had to ask the mods to re-size - infact I think it was you who did it.
I know how irritating it is to have to scroll all over the place, and if you have several photos that are too large, on some browsers the scroll bar is way down the posting and off screen!
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Andrew
Thank you for the nice comments. Glad to help when we can. :D :D
Cheers :beer:
Don
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Well a bit more tarting up whilst twiddling thumbs waiting on US parcel service. I decided to try and force start the hydraulic pump as an easy way to prove the phases were giving correct rotation, but when I looked at the hydraulic power pack I decided it needed a clean up first! Years of spills when topping up had resulted in the top tray being awash with oil which in the hotter bits had baked to a nice thick pancake. First I used my tried and tested method of getting the liquid oil out of the way - loads of fine sawdust (I use this method for cleaning out sumps of coolant in machines) then suck it up with the workshop vacuum cleaner. Then a good scrubbing with white spirit and an old paint brush, more sawdust, then a wash down with sugar soap, more saw dust, then a wipe over! Came out quite nicely - still not tried the rotation direction yet as it's time to feed the pigs, geese and chickens.
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Well a tiny bit of progress today while waiting for spares (which are now in the Customs hands at Heathrow according to the tracking info!).
The parameter memory (MC465) and the spindle drives have 3.6v NiCad rechargeables to retain memory when powered down. This beast had been off for probably over a year so they are knackered. The original batteries are a special made by SAFT - A GB250H-3F, which is a 3 cell lump with bolt down 3mm lugs, and are unobtainable. Later ones are NiMh technology and I'm not sure the on board charger would cope - so I've ordered some hand held telephone batteries that are still available in NiCd and will make up an adapter plate for them. The good news is that I've found parameter sheets detailing all the required information to reset their parameter tucked into each of the three spindle drives. The axis drives aren't so equipped so that will be a hurdle to jump in times to come.
Meanwhile turned up two leveling 'feet' that were missing from the swarf conveyor, and investigated the missing 'castor' from this heavy lump, that made it so hard to install. It's a cast iron 3" wheel, mounted so it's mounting plate is 4" off the floor - so please check your scrap bins and see if you have one!
Here is a photo (off the web, not mine)) of one of the special batteries:
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Give these guys a call
http://www.bristolbatteries.com/site/contact
They would make you an exact pack for not too much. I used them in the past for welded bat packs for my RC stuff.
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Well, parts still showing as in Customs, so did a bit more poking and prodding.
Powered the hydraulic power pack up by manually operating it's start contactor. Fortunately they are the sort where the armature moves sideways, with a tell tale peg at the top that can be nicely wedged with a small screwdriver, and the overload is a separate unit so is still able to function. Motor did turn the right way, so I got my phases in the right places (!) and developed a nice 55 bar on the gauge. Daren't use any of the hydraulic operators until more stuff has been tested. Did the same with the swarf conveyor so was able to clean out the insides a bit. Also checked its reverse facility which I assume is to clear blockages rather than turn swarf back into bar stock :clap: The local authority 'green recycling' wheelie bin conveniently fits snugly under the output! (Why would we want a green recycling bin on a farm, we compost everything locally, anway it was an old bin with a broken lid so my conscience is clear)
Another revelation came whilst pouring over the manuals. The third 'axis' drive is actually the rotation of powered tools in the tool carousel so you can drill, tap & mill (Not to be confused with rotating the carousel itself to select a tool). I had previously imagined that the main spindle orientation C axis was a separate motor from the main spindle turning motor. WRONG - the 18.5Kw main motor apparently can stop on a sixpence as and where you want it. It has two encoders built into a single unit (a Heidenhain ROD2271 1024 / 18,000 line encoder that Traub describe as 1024 / 90,000 line. Maybe there is some multiplication going on somewhere ????)
Lots still to learn :beer:
Never know, I may get some spares soon, customs permitting.
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Even the colour matches :clap: :clap: :clap:
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So yesterdays foray into the hydraulics entailed delving into the bowels of the machine to find the hydraulic manifold and system pressure gauge (The ones near the Operator Console indicate the clamping pressures in the Main and Opposing spindle chucks)
Handy little drop down door under the console revealed the manifold and a 'orrid sticky mess - do these people never clean up after themselves :bugeye:
So, out with the Sugar Soap and bucket again, and at least now I can read the various labels - next bit is understanding them :Doh:
ps Spares still in Customs - how long DO these things take !!!!
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Well, tracking data on the spares from the US of A now says 'Customs Clearance Processing Completed' as of 07:00 this morning, so maybe they'll soon be loaded into the saddle bags of a Yak and trudge vaguely towards me :bang:
Still only a 50:50 chance these'll fix things so trying not to get too excited :wave:
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What will be the next step if the new parts don't bring it to life? Not that I'm sceptical or anything just wondering if that will sound the death-knell or if you had another plan.
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It'll be my death knell if 'er indoors finds out what they cost :ddb:
Well let's wait and see - my first target is not to get the machine humming, but to at least get something up on the screen and be able to talk to it.
(First rule in sieges and hostage situations - establish communications !)
Funny thing happened today - I was googling away looking for other examples of the same lathe, found one sold some time ago on an Apex auction in Tyne & Wear (other end of the UK from me) - then thought 'those labels and hand scribbled diagrams look familiar' yes you guessed it - it's definitely mine.
https://www.apexauctions.co.uk/auction/itemDetails.htm?lotId=35029
Obviously well travelled, it started off life when new in 1993 with Dorman Diesels, and in fact still with the documentation are some parts drawings, a tooling description, and a print of the G-code to make them. There's an idler shaft, a valve guide and a washer if I remember correctly, so not quite enough to make an engine.
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What will be the next step if the new parts don't bring it to life? Not that I'm sceptical or anything just wondering if that will sound the death-knell or if you had another plan.
Oh, there's always a Plan B!
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OK a tad more progress. The spares arrived from the USA today. The main CPU card (MC161-1), a colour monitor drive card (MC724-1), and an input output card (MC301).
The original symptoms (while I've had it - remember it was faulty and had previously been worked on) were totally black / blank monitor screen, no RGB Hsynch or Vsynch signals as measured with a 'scope, and various LEDs on the cpu card staying resolutely 'on' when reset / rebooted whereas they are supposed to come on then go off.
With the replacement CPU card the LEDs seem to do what they are supposed to do. With the original monitor card and new CPU we still have a black screen. Putting both replacement CPU & monitor cards in we get a white screen showing scan lines and flyback lines so I assume we now have H &V synch even if no video!
Not tried the i/o card but it's almost certainly irrelevant anyway !
So as I say, a bit of progress but no definite conclusions yet.
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Well a bit of a leap forwards in progress. I managed to track down an FCA330HLX-V controller in unknown condition. Mine is an FCA320HLX-V the main difference being that my original is a '6 slot' whereas this one is a '10 slot'. The card compliment is very similar but not identical, the 10 slot having more memory arranged differently on the cards. BUT the good news is it does seem to have come from a TX8-F as the eproms in the monitor drive card say so! This controller was sold in an unknown state, so a bit of a pig in a poke, however it has allowed me to use it as a test bed to check things out to the extent that at last I have a picture on the screen - hooray! So far it seems that just the monitor drive card MC724-1 on the '10 slot' is fubar and using one I got elsewhere up came a picture.
Photos to follow: first the original '6 slot' controller, then the '10 slot', then the first evidence of LIFE :ddb:
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Well a bit more head scratching and I began to think about character proms on the monitor card. My original card seems to be duff, as does the one in my newly acquired 10 slot controller - BUT the later had a character prom on it labelled 'TX8-F' which is the TRAUB name for this variant of the controller. The one that came to me by another means (and works) was not so labelled. It's only an eprom - go one swap 'em over - so I did. Ho ho - things start to make sense. Start up screen no longer has the odd blue blotch but says 'Meldas 300V Series' and I can trot around the controller finding all sorts of interesting displays, monitors and input screens - loads of errors reported from the attached hardware (spindle drives, axis drives etc) but that's hardly surprising as I'm running without any parameters loaded either to the drives or to the controller. Also the 'Ladder Logic' eprom is from the 10 slot control not my 6 slot one Well loads more learning to come I expect! Here's a few screen shots:
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I gotta say I admire your tenacity. I hope it all works out for you based on effort alone!
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Hi there,
Many years ago, I worked on a project that included a hydraulic power supply. (We sourced it from a sub-contractor.) It used a gear pump. Because it's a positive displacement pump, the oil has to have somewhere to go when the rest of the hydraulic gubbins is not active so there was a relief valve across the pump output.
Thing was, it used to make the most fearsome noise, really deafening.
Does yours suffer the same?
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Pete,
I've not got to the stage yet that the hydraulics can be automatically activated as the controller needs fully sorting first - there is some SERIOUS power in this machine so it's definitely a case of taking it slowly step by step. Two hydraulic chucks, two hydraulic parts ejectors as well as the flip in /out parts catcher. I have manually powered up the hydraulic power pack by overriding the appropriate relay, and although obviously not quiet it isn't deafening. A few months back I resurrected another CNC lathe (an Eagland Chipturn) and that used hydraulics for the tool turret rotation and locking. When the oil was cold the bypass valve made quite a racket and the rotation was a bit erratic, but it settled down as it warmed up.
Andrew
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As things are hotting up and there is now a chance that I might actually get this monster working, I thought I had better take my courage in both hands and try and read the 1" paper tape copy of the parameters originally shipped with the machine. Although I also had been given a floppy disc with parameters on I wanted to go back to the 'original source' rather than what others have created over the years.
I managed to pick up a very nice hardly used Facit paper tape reader / punch off eBay about a year ago still in it's original box, so I dug it out, made up a cable to interface to my PC and had a go at reading it. Next question was 8 bit data, 7 bit and parity, and if so even or odd parity. Well after the second pass through the reader I got sensible results (7 bit even parity!) and actually got the tape wound back up without tearing it. It's decades since I've played seriously with paper tape - how time flys :clap:
Anyway I now have a 6kbyte file which has many similarities with the one on disk but has all the params not just some of them
For the really bored amongst you I attach a copy! (A sort of off site backup I suppose )
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Great work! Sounds like you're really on the verge. Paper tape, even. Amazing! :coffee:
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Got a few minutes today to play: Going though the various error reports it's showing is a 'Z58 BRAM error' which turns out to be indicating an MC462A battery backed ram card that I understand holds the parameters. I've tracked a couple down (good old google!) and am 'negotiating' Also managed to make up the link cable to the PC but can't use it until I can clear this Z58 error.
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Well the MC462A battery backed RAM card arrived today from the depths of Illinois USA, and lo and behold it has cleared my Z58BRAM error. Relief as it took a long time to get and wasn't cheap.
The TX8F controller has a 'file system' in ram that has to be formatted - the original Meldas version of the controller has a menu system that lets you do it, but the reprogrammed Traub version omits the menu - argh!!! Thrashing around all day trying to find a work arround I eventually found a scruffy single A4 sheet in the documents that came with the machine that revealed the cryptic sequence of keystrokes to do the format. This sheet seems to be a page from some training notes that I'd dearly like to obtain, even though it is obviously written by a German in English and the word order of various bits had to be adjusted!
Having created the file system I was able to write a diddy program and save it so it shows up in various directory screens etc
What I can't do yet is re-input the parameters to get it actually running code. Keep getting 'Horizontal parity errors' (remember this data was originally paper tape - a horizontal parity error is within one stripe of holes ie one character - a vertical parity error is along the tape in what we always called a BCC or Block Check Character.
Detailed reading of the Interface Specification this evening seems to suggest that parameters can only be read in when the control is set up for No parity, 1 Stop Bit and 8 Data, but strangely sourced from a PC or tape reader set of 1 Stop, Even Parity and 7 data. Very strange but I'll give it a whirl tomorrow.
Meanwhile here's a picture of the newly replaced MC462A in all its' splendour.
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Well, 9 bits either way. Maybe it's just looking for the even parity. and character bit 8 is bothering. Fingers crossed it will work tomorrow. I like your persistence awemawson. :beer:
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OK Parameters loaded into the controller :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
I still have some odd handshake error on the RS232 as at 1200 baud (the preferred set up in the book) I was getting 'overrun errors', but slowing it right down to 300 baud the data is in and done: Phew that was a struggle.
Still need to get the parameters into the three rotary axis (Main Spindle, Opposing Spindle and Driven Tools) and also into the servo amplifiers (X - Tool In/Out, Z - Tool on long axis and V - Opposing spindle on long axis)
I suspect that some of the Input/Output cards aren't working, as it's reporting a 'Safety door open' alarm, but the microswitch for it is being triggered.
Loads more to discover about this mammoth, meanwhile just in case some other hapless fellow happens across this thread trying to get a TX-8F controller Initialised I'll attach a scan of the scruffy page that got me over the last hill:
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Good work! :thumbup:
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Lots of things happening now!
I got in touch with the chap I got it from to see if he knew where that document came from, and he casually mentioned that he still had the Optical Tool Setter and Zero Tool and did I want it? YES PLEASE :thumbup: It matters not a jot that I had already acquired a 'scope tube with eye piece and objective lens to make one!
Here are pictures of it in the box, it's Zero Tool and mounted on the machine
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... And yes he had a few possibilities for where that document came from. To cut a long story short, I am now in touch with the author of the document who has been able to give me lots of very useful information regarding hardware and firmware compatibility.
However he tells me that I cannot use the replacement 10 slot controller as he asserts that the Input /Output addresses don't correspond and I would need different firmware to re-address the various I/O cards.
So yesterday I re-built the 6 slot controller using what I knew to be good cards (prints in Traub speak) from the 10 slot. That little pesky battery backed RAM card is different between the two controllers - you remember I recently got one (MC462A) for the 10 slot that got me out of trouble, well now if I am to use the 6 slot it seems I need an MC465a - it's basically the same thing but sits on the system bus not the rom bus so not interchangeable. I actually have two of them, one which was original to the machine totally locks everything up and the machine will not boot, the other reports a 'bus error' and displays what looks to me to be a cpu register dump. With no card installed I'm back to the Z58 BRAM error - argh!
Some picture to hold your interest :wave:
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Some picture to hold your interest :wave:
You've got my interest! :bugeye:
I thought setting up Mach3 to work with with my mill was hard enough.
What are you planning to make with it when it's finally fixed?
:beer:
Phil.
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awemason, maybe you have already addressed this in an earlier post, but I'm wondering what the advantage in retaining all of the original control circuitry is, as opposed to replacing it with a modern solution (whether LinuxCNC or some other 'drop in' replacement)?
It seems like a lot of effort and expense and I can't help but feel... what if it breaks again?
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PhilF : Make - good heavens man I'm not going to MAKE anything - it's the journey I enjoy :clap: Well perhaps the odd run of a few hundred thousand widgets. :clap:
Loply: partly answered your point in my comment to PhilF - but actually the TX 8F is a very capable controller, and on this machine the spindle amplifiers and axis servos are not interfaced in the conventional way, but are driven by a scusii like 50 pin interface proprietary to Mitsubishi - not saying it's not possible but not just 'step and direction' or '+10-0--10' that can be bought as a comodity.
Spent a bit of time this evening gluing the Optical Tool Setter box back together - looks ok in the picture but in fact obviously has been dropped - diametrically opposite corners broken.
Still not found an MC465a - ordered a few ics today and will start replacing the buffer logic that it talks to the bus with. A couple of standard through hole DIL SN74LS645-1N octal bi-directional bus drivers which I know I can cope with, but eight SN74ls244 SOIC chips as well. Never worked with tiny surface mounted components before so this will be breaking new ground for me.
This is the card I'm working on:
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Fortunately I think I've proved the two custom Programmable Logic Arrays to be ok as I've swapped them between the two faulty cards that exhibit distinctly differing fault symptoms, and the faults remain the same. Not absolute proof that they are ok but they probably are.
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Quandry Quandry: :bugeye:
Chips arrived this morning, and I started on the 'easy' through hole SN74LS645-1N - as there are a pair of them I am assuming that they are the 16 bit wide data bus buffers. First one wasn't too bad, but the power pins were a pain as the board has a ground plane and a power plane so it took a lot of heat to suck out the solder. Changed the first, put in a 20 pin socket, whacked in a replacement chip, tried it - unchanged symptoms :( - anyway onwards and upwards, went ahead and removed and socketed the second SN74LS645-1N. Tried it - symptoms have changed to EXACTLY the same as my other board (which was already packed up to be returned as faulty!). I can only presume as both boards now give the same symptoms the fault lies elsewhere. Looking on the bright side it does look as though I have probably fixed one faulty board to chip level. :clap:
Meanwhile they've cut our water off due to burst pipes on the main road and are bringing a bowser round for our livestock, and bottles for us, so probably little time for progress this afternoon due to water carrying.
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If you do not have a hot air smd rework station then you should get one.. or use a standard hot air gun carefully..
An increasingly common feature of soic packages is a pad actually under the chip...but I'm sure yours will not.
On dips I have used a technique of cutting the pins off with a fine dremel cutting disk then unsoldering the remains individually.. but it takes practise a great care.
HTH Rob
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If you can get a thin piece of wire under the legs then just use a soldering iron, heat a leg at a time pull the two ends of the as you go lifting the legs.
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The wire underneath trick works okay on older packages , but sometimes you have to go so thin on the wire that it snaps frequently making it worse...and if theres a conformal coating then its a nogo.
Circuit Specialists do a cheap hot air desoldering gun ... £57
http://www.circuitspecialists.eu/soldering/desoldering-hot-air-rework/hot-air-gun-w-digital-display-for-smds-csi-hotgun2
Handy for occasional use,
Rob
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Wire trick works fine for me. The cheap hot air guns you get from Aldi have a selection of nozzles, one of those is a small round affair which works well too.
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I took delivery today of a kit containing a magic low melting point high fluidity solder. The idea is you swamp the legs of the SOIC with the new solder, that dissolves the original and stays molten long enough to lift the device away from the board. Not had a chance to unpack it yet due to other issues but the video looks good:
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=1850214
All sorts of confusing issues with the controller - seems I had the wrong PLC eprom inserted which accounts for some of the problems but I don't seem to be able to clear the Z58BRAM error. I am seriously considering reverting back to the 10 slot box as that uses a different BRAM card that cured the same errors in that box. I'm told the card addressing along the backboard is different but I would have thought that the 6 slot would be a subset of the 10 slot, and I will not be using the extra four slots! I will pull them both out on the bench and buss out some pins, but it's a bit of a daunting task as each slot has two 96 way sockets so there's a bit of effort involved ! 6 x 96 x 2 = 1152 points to be correlated on two backboards :jaw:
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I took delivery today of a kit containing a magic low melting point high fluidity solder.
They do have traces of lead in them though..which can be a problem.
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Just received an email from Traubs agents in the UK quoting me for a replacement MC465a which is the card I 'think' I fixed today.
£2461.50 plus VAT @20% plus carriage No I don't think I'll be buying one of those - anyway hopefully I don't need one now.
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I took delivery today of a kit containing a magic low melting point high fluidity solder.
They do have traces of lead in them though..which can be a problem.
I've been soldering components with 60/40 tin/lead solder for the past 45 years and I expect that this series of boards being made in the early 1990's was still tin lead so I don't suppose it'll be much of a technical problem, and certainly no worry to me whatsoever.
It's interesting to note that high reliability critical kit is still being made using tin/lead solder due to the fatigue effect of lead free which over time produces dry joints.
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£2461.50 plus VAT @20% plus carriage No I don't think I'll be buying one of those - anyway hopefully I don't need one now.
Wow thats ... well it reminds me of parts prices for my German Scheaff HR16 minidigger.
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I favor the cutting pins method on standard DIP packages so I don't over heat or over pry the package being removed, rather than trying to solder suck with the piece in place. In the old days we used to slip a nail file under -- similar to the wire method.
Overheating a plated through hole in a multilayer board can be big problem. Individual leads are much easier to desolder in one go than an attached package worth of leads, which often require re-heats of sticky legs. It's the re-heats with pressure that detach pads or mess up a plated through connection.
I use fingernail clippers to snip leads instead of a Dremel. No tendency to ricochet with a hand tool as there is with a power tool.
awemawson, are you replacing the DIP pkgs with sockets or are you soldering the new chips in place? I'd probably go with sockets to make sure your new chips don't include a dud. You can then substitute around to check.
Caps tend to have limited lives more than most other components in an old board. I don't see too many on your board, though.
I'm sure I'm just repeating things you already know, but throwing stuff out there just in case some little bit is helpful.
I got my fingers crossed for you. :thumbup:
Sorry to hear about the water situation, I know how that is. Makes everything difficult. :(
Soldier on! :thumbup:
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Vsteam thanks - water situation resolved late last night. Makes you appreciate it when it comes back!
Yes I always cut pins on DIL packages to remove, then take out individual pins. Although I do have a proper Weller de-soldering station with a vacuum pump my method of choice is to flow the solder - push the pin as far as it will go towards the component side with the tip of the iron, then give it a quick blast from a fine compressed air nozzle. Blows pin and solder clean away leaving a nice undamaged hole but I work on a pad of workshop tissue to contain the bits that come though. In this case the power pins on their massive power planes resisted solderwick, the vacuum sucker and the air blast - I just couldn't get the thing molten all the way through until I went from a #7 Weller bit to a #9 (which is higher temperature. I suppose this is one case where that low melting point stuff in the video above would have come in handy, but it hadn't arrived by then.
Oh and yes I always socket replacement chips !
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awemawson
I have been following along since the start of your project on the CNC lathe purchase and process of bringing it back to life. Slow and steady, one step at a time. Think each step through first then on to the next. When you solve the last piece of the puzzle it will be so worth it that we will probably all hear a big
:ddb: :ddb: "YES". :ddb: :ddb:
Good luck with it and I will continue to keep watching. :D :D
Cheers :beer:
Don 3158
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Don thanks for the encouragement.
I've reverted back to the 10 slot controller as I cannot overcome the Z58 BRAM failure that I get in the 6 slot. It takes MC465a BRAM cards, two of which give the same failure, whereas the ten slot takes an MC462 BRAM card which has gone in and shows no such issue. I have yet to prove that the input / output addresses appear in the same places and that is tomorrows job with a 'scope and big piece of paper. However I cannot see that the 6 slot is anything other than a subset of the ten slot but I may be proved wrong!
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At the end of the day, I bet it's just one *%$#! line different!
Fingers crossed! :beer:
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OK I didn't fancy buzzing out all those backboard lines to prove if the slot addressing in the 6 slot was different from the 10 slot as the experts had told me, so I went ahead and tried it anyway. There are two input output cards and a channel card to drive the additional axis:
MC301 has 64 Digit Inputs and 45 Digital Outputs
MC323 has Analogue i/o (not used in this config, and 64 Digital Input and 64 Digital Outputs
MC652 drives an additional daisy chain interface to the V axis (opposing spindle)
Now I can monitor inputs on built in displays on the controller, but I've not yet found how to drive outputs, but my reasoning goes that for these inputs and outputs to feature at the correct addresses so long as inputs on a card are proved to be in the right place, the outputs should also be ok address wise. Now there is a logistical issue testing this - the controller is on the front, and all the wiring is round the back! So I made up a long test lead consisting simply a single pole switch on one end of a wire pair, and a pair of 'bootlace ferrules' on the other end. A '1' is +24V on this system, so one wire was fixed to +24v, and I sequentially removed a selection of inputs from the termination board substituting my other wire. This way I could watch the interface monitor screen, and toggle the switch and watch bits being turned off or on. All inputs showed up in the right places so I concluded that the MC301 & MC323 backboard addressing must be what the system expected. Now for the MC652 card: Each drive (Axis and Servo) talks along its daisy chained bus and gives its status to the system the same way. Each has a rotary pcb mounted hexadecimal switch to set its 'drive number' on the bus hex 0-E are potential drive numbers and 'F' is unequipped - ie servo amp not used. Sure enough making adjustment to the drive numbers showed up on the appropriate screen of the controller so again I conclude its address as far as the system program is concerned work just as it did before in the 6 slot backboard. So I MIGHT be on a winner. :ddb:
Fortunately all the i/o wires are screwless 'Wago' types that you open and close pushing a fine screwdriver in a hole, so connecting and disconnecting wasn't as hard as it might have been.
Talking of winners, I grabbed some 96 way din connector extender cards on ebay which arrived today. The system has single connector (half height) boards and double connector (full height) boards. In the photos that follow we have:
A/ Single connector extender - can be used unmodified
B/ Dual connector extender - needs slicing up and the connector spacing adjusting
C/ Tripple connector extender comprising three single bolted together with spacers - I may use two of the element of this rather than slice up B/
D/ a shot showing how close to the required spacing the dual extender is
E/ a shot of the now empty and forlorn 6 slot controller
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Classic hacking. :bow:
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Whilst it was on the bench I set too with the power supply in the 6 slot. It worked fine except that there was a faulty centre biased toggle switch that latches it on or off, which duplicates a function on the operator control panel. It would stay in the on state, so when youb turned off at the operator control panel, it would immediately turn back on! It's an obsolete micro miniature pcb mounted 90 degree bent 0.1" pin spacing with two extra mechanical pins to secure it and an extended toggle. Closest I could find had the right 90 degree bend 0.1 pin spacing but the two mechanical mounts were in the wrong place and the toggle was short :( . A bit of judicious pin bending got it in the pcb (desoldering with the Weller vacuum sucker worked a treat this time). I reckoned to glue a tube extension to the toggle when re-assembled but in practice it's ok.
Hopefully I can set up a test bed with this 6 slot and the extenders - anyway some pictures:
A/ Old and new switches
B/ New in situ
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I spent the day trying to work out why the controller isn't acting on the 'door open and 'door closed' switches. It is quite a complicated system with lots of interlocks. The machines sliding door has a switch for when it is 'open', another for 'closed', and a third for 'locked'. Locking is by an electric shot bolt with switch feedback. Then each rotary axis has a special safety monitoring relay that tells when the spindle is rotating. These three rotary axis monitors are all connected in two series chains of normally open and normally closed contacts, which in combination with the door switches operate 'open', 'closed' and 'locked' relays. Or rather they should but they don't :bugeye:
No complicated controller interaction here - just 'simple' relay & switch logic but I've been chasing my tail all day. I knew that one of the 'zero speed' relays is faulty but I have temporarily linked them all out. Turns out I have lots of relays with bad contacts. Measure a normally closed contact and the chances are it's open! Even after a spray of contact cleaner which de-oxidises contacts there are problems. I suspect that it's quite a bit to do with the fact I'm testing with an Avo meter on ohms that will only bias the contacts with 1.5v whereas the normal operation is 24v. I will set up a battery & bulb tester this evening and see what happens. Machine is quite clean inside so I'm surprised contacts are that bad.
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Not trying you to suck eggs,but when I first went out on the plant at the end of my apprenticeship I was put with a electricians mate who was abut to retire his two bits of advice to a new wet behind the ears sparks was 1 always test with the voltage that the job uses ( i.e. use a test lamp with on leg on the live side. and two listen to the plant operators when we go to a break down they may just have seen something that is important , brush the off and they will not help you again.
enough of my rambling as you have found out with old equipment most relays do not have much wipe as they close and need a minimum current flow though the contacts to operate correctly, get a 24 v lamp and use that to bell out the contact chain AVO are next to useless in this case as are 1000v megga's on very old VIR cables ( they fail the megga test but are fine on the voltage they used on )
another tip that has held me in good stead was if you have the drawing always start testing from the middle to each rail thus you have halved the amount you need to test, repeat with the remaining section and the fault can be quickly found
note the above does not conform to the current H&S regs of live testing :Doh: but bear in mind I was was brung up up on open 220vdc open switch gear with only a rubber mat to stand on as well as 550vac barrel type crane controllers
as a comment you have come a long way with this project and I wish you well with this endeavour and I do hope you will have a good end to your journey
Stuart
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Stuart,
I totally agree about listening to the operators. After years working on process control computers from biscuit factories to oil refineries through nuclear power stations what you say rings very true.
Before reading your post I'd cobbled up a 24v T5.5 'wedge bulb' on the end of a probe to do precisely what you suggest, and also ordered a Fluke T50 tester! Not convinced the T50 is the total solution as it uses leds, but in this instance better thasn the Avo, which reigns supreme in other uses.
Another extremely useful tool I'm using is a telecoms wire tracer. Hook the oscillator on a wire and you can trace with the receiver where it actually goes rather than where the circuit says!
Andrew
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One thing I always wondered is - when you are using this test equipment to probe circuitry, how do you know that a) the power you're using isn't going to damage something and b) your test doesn't find another path and give a false result.
Yes, I'm an electrically/electronically-challenged noob. I had to look up resistor circuits yesterday :)
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Well you choose your probing technique to suit the object you are working on. So when fault finding on a 24v dc relay logic set up a 24v bulb is suitable, but when probing delicate electronics, a high impedance oscilloscope probe is more appropriate and remember to take anti-static precautions. Touch an earth before touching any pcb you are working on to discharge any static on you. When doing it commercially I'd wear a wrist band connected to ground via a 1 Meg Ohm resistor and work on an anti-static mat.
As for the other path issue - yes it happens and you need to be aware of it. If you are lucky and have an accurate circuit diagram you can predict the other paths. The circuit that I have for this CNC Lathe is 'largely correct' but I've found a few discrepancies as when it was originally sold there were all sorts of feature options, and different safety options for different countries. Also it had a bar feeder fitted originally, but I don't have it, nor do I have it's circuit so undoubtedly there will be issues there as it was interlocked with the lathes safety features.
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Today started with a bang. Literally :doh:
Went to the workshop to resume chasing relay faults, turned on the power and there was a crack / bang like a fuse blowing. Turns out that the dual servo drive for the X & Z axis had blown up :( Looking at it it was showing no signs of life. 3 phase going in, no supplies on the board. Here it is in situ:
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Obviously going to have to get it out and on the bench - loads of connections:
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So got it on the bench and need to pull it to pieces for a very close examination:
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I was expecting to find blown up power components in the input side but everything looked (and smelled - don't over look the nose in diagnosis !) ok - It's the usual input stage of the three phases coming in to a bridge rectifier and charging up a whacking great reservoir capacitor, with inrush current limiting by having power resistors in series with the three phases, shorted out a second or so after power on. However all looked well to my trusty Avo!
Then I started looking at the driver board and found this:
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There is a bit of pcb track blown open circuit, and a flash mark next to a 180v working electrolytic capacitor. My guess is that the capacitor has gone short circuit blowing the track but yet to prove that theory as it's time to feed the livestock.
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Today started with a bang. Literally :doh:
:zap: :bang: :coffee: :smart: :dremel: :thumbup:
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Didn't you say before that capacitors that have been dead a long time have to be started slowly to 're-establish' them or something?
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Yes Pete, but this one had been powered up for a long time so I don't think it was a re - forming issue. Anyway the capacitor would seem to be innocent of all charges, not only does that track not connect to it, it tests out ok. This section of the circuit is as far as I can tell (by staring at it !) is a switched mode power supply generating all the internally needed voltage rails for the logic and to drive the 'H Bridge' driver circuits. However they are notoriously problematic to fault find - particularly without a circuit diagram and this one has Meldas proprietary lsi modules on it :(
If I wanted a divorce I could always buy this one:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/360637652653?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
(link to eBay item of similar servo drive for £3,538.18 for those reading after the ebay item expires)
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Awemawson
I have been following this thread with interest and as an electrical/electronics engineer with 30 years tinkering professionally, I take my hat of to you sir :bow: as you've got more balls than I have to buy 4 plus tons of gear which keeps kicking back at you :bang:(If my SWMBO copped wind of a toy like that papers would be served within 24hours).
On a more serious note might I suggest that you rip all the 'ebay'able electronics out - flog them and then use the cash generated to buy some huge stepper motors and associated control gear, at least that way you understand how it would work. although there would be a lot of work fitting the motors :dremel:
Good luck :bugeye:
Fred
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Thanks Fred. :beer:
Started in earnest trying to find WHY that track burnt out. It runs from one pin of the transformer so I decided that I needed to pull the transformer so I could hopefully work out its windings and thus the circuitry around the blown track
A/ Transformer in way - remove it!
B/ Clear Board where it was
C/ Transformer underside
D/ That blown track
E/ Equipment used to remove the transformer
F/Transformer Diagram
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Removing the transformer was a bit of a pig, as there was masses of solder on the component side that I couldn't get at. Ended up using the "SMD removal" low melting point solder to dissolve it and sucked out ok then! Turns out a single ended winding on the transformer (which presumably is driven as an oscillator at a few kHz) is being used as a very simple voltage supply as per diagram below. I cannot for the life of me see how this circuit can produce sufficient current to blow the track, as all other components in the cct are ok.
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To prove the circuit I lashed in a lab supply in place of the transformer, which allowed me to measure that the (unmarked) zener diode is a 5v one (probably 4.7 actually)
SO HOW DID THE TRACK BLOW?????
A/ Lash up to power it
B/ Lab supply
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Sir
Just noticed your comments about what caused the track to blow & how!!
My pennys worth "Is the transformer primary connected to a high voltage or is the transformer only to isolate grounds" either way have you tested the transformer at high voltage (Flash or 'Megger' insulation resistance test) .
Also can you test the transformer primary drive electronics with a load resistance in place of the primary and use a scope with Differential probes to observe whats going on??
Best regards
Fred
PS you've probably done all this but sometimes a different pair of eyes can sometimes spot the obvious (more to the point I'm not worrying about divorce papers :D)
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Fred, as far as I can tell, remembering I have no circuits of this AC servo drive, two of the three phases are brought into this board, rectified, and chopped, the chopper / oscillator using this transformer as a load (and possibly feedback on one winding). As you can see from its size its a high frequency transformer with I suspect a ferrite core rather than iron. I agree Meggering it is a good idea that I hadn't thought of as presumably the primary is at a few hundred volts.
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Sir
As I thought the Power supply is to generate on board LV DC supplies and as such the DC level on the primary on the transformer will be floating around 325 volts (SQR 2 (1.414) x 230V AC) :zap: Be careful!!!
You could wire in an external supply to power the on board electronics and power it all up on the bench first then fit the board back into the system to see if the rest of the system works okay!!- Either way a bit of a risk, I have done it a few times myself.
I have fitted supplies to equipment before, got it to work and decided to leave well alone as it did the job, this included doing a very quick rush job were I left the 0-30V DC Thandar lab supply inside the equipment as they wanted to start production within that day, finally got the supply back when the company shut the line down and moved production abroad :bang: 3 odd years later :Doh:
Best Regards
Fred
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yep been there done that
most risky one was a lash up supply for 80vdc ( dont ask why the funny volt try the manufacture instead ) all it was doing was to supply the sync panel for the 441hz supply for a number of IBM mainframes for a large UK bank it ran for a year , the risk was the downtime £40 million every five mins :zap:
Fred I do doubt that the logic dc volt would be floating that would be very dodgy indeed any disconnected plugs around the system would float up BTW i though it would be root 3 (1.732) ?
Anyway back to the plot good luck with sorting what is becoming a rats nest of problems with no drawing and prop parts Sir you have my condolences
Stuart
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The machine internally works on 100v AC - there is a three phase transformer bringing my 415v three phase down to 100v three phase. This particular board on the AC servo drive pick off two of the three phases to use as it's source - so probably about 170 volts phase to phase. When I've plotted out more of the circuit of the switched mode converter I'm going to power it from a Variac and bring the volts up slowly as I watch & measure.
Fred: I megger'd the transformer winding to winding with my (ex GPO - shows how old it is!) 500v megger and confirmed that there is no leakage - it was a good idea though - thanks.
This little bit of the circuit is generating quite a few independent supplies some of which I suspect are used on the drivers for the 'H Bridge' output power FETs and as such need to float as the H bridges (two of them as there are two AC servos in the unit) are powered by the rectified 100v three phase. Not really practical to supply external replacements as I don't know what they should be anyway!
I must spend some time this evening plotting out more of the circuit - I got diverted this afternoon sorting out my poor dog that had to be spayed this morning and dismantling the penning in the lambing shed and converting it to a shearing shed ready for when the sheep have their next haircut. Don't you find life gets in the way of doing what you want to do!
(anyone want some sheeps wool?)
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Stuart
SQR of 3 is used when working with 3 phase power systems.
For example with a star connected 400 volt phase to phase system the phase to neutral voltage (single phase) is 400/(SQR3) = 230volts
:smart:
SQR2 is the value used to convert a measured AC sinewave voltage (RMS or root mean square) value to its peak especially when you are charging capacitors up. The peak voltage of the sinewave will be present across the smoothing capacitors, the voltage measured will fall as load is put onto the circuit and will have an increase AC ripple component as the capacitor is discharged more heavily. That is why you have to use some form of electronic regulator (either series or shunt regulators or switch mode regulators) when you power up electronics via mains transformers with rectifiers and filtering/smoothing capacitors.
Sorry ladies and gentlemen of the forum if my explaination is not very good - I'm one of lifes doerrs not teachers :lol:
Best regards
Fred
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Opps
As I was typing awemawson commented!!
Fred
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Sorry Fred
guess I worked with 3 phase to much
I will get under my blanket and let Andrew continue with his epic adventure
Stuart
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And it seems I was wrong - it's 200v 3 phase running around so the input will be about 340v I suppose. Just has a quick look again and the input from two of the phases goes through the usual common mode rejection filter, a 3.2 amp fuse (which is ok) to the bridge rectifier and across the large electrolytic capacitor. There then sadly is a custom hybrid thick film potted circuit so the actual functions gets hazy, but there is a 2SK847 power fet in series with one winding that I presume is the excitation for the transformer. I've dug out my ancient open frame variac, powered it up and checked that it works but now called back in on dog sitting duty while the wife goes out selling eggs!
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but now called back in on dog sitting duty while the wife goes out selling eggs!
Jesus H Christ on a push bike.
Tie the damn mutt to the chip conveyor and get on with the damn thing.......................
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John, your soft side is :clap: showing again .
Actually she's still totally zonked from the operation (the dog not the wife) so best not left on her own until she comes round poor thing.
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OK I had a few minutes so escaped briefly to the workshop for more investigation. More close scrutiny of the board revealed an overheated track and a blown capacitor (35v 68uF) with one leg burnt off! How I didn't spot it before I don't know. Bit more tracing shows that the overheated track, although it goes very close to the blown up capacitor, isn't connected to it! In fact this track snakes around ending up on the output of a 7915 voltage regulator a few inches down the board. I decided to take my chances and, having replaced the blown capacitor (with a 35v 100uF as that's the nearest I had to hand), returned the transformer to the board, and linked the originally found blown track, connected up my ancient (probably lethal) open framed Variac, set it to half normal input voltage of 100, and powered up. No smoke, no smells, nothing got hot. Slowly wound it up to 200v and again no dramas. Gingerly started probing around (everything is floating at a high voltage). That 5v Zener diode in the hand drawn picture a few posts ago actually had 5v across it, and from my reading of the circuit that can only happen if the thing is oscillating and driving the transformer. Somewhere down the line there are two 'standard' voltages regulators, a 7815 (+15v) and a 7915 (-15v whose output track had overheated but not blown) - neither are giving outputs so something is still wrong. I need to poke around with my oscilloscope, but need first to work out what I can use as a common earth - a job for tomorrow.
Incidentally, with a 200v input, the large reservoir capacitor is charged up to 295V
Some pictures:
A/ Second burnt track and adjacent blown capacitor
B/ Capacitor removed
C/ Original blown track linked
D/ Lethal Variac - don't try this at home children :bugeye:
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Looks increasingly as though the hybrid ic in this power supply design is the fault. It is a DK-466 and it seems that they are rare as hens teeth - only found two references to them by Googling, one was a chap looking for one, and the other is this:
http://mtc-technik.de/online-shop/mitsubishi-electric-hybrid-ic-dk-466-power-supply::7255ID.html
I've emailed them but don't hold out much hope.
The oscillator is running at about 20-30 khz which seems reasonable, and there is a power fet in series with one winding of the transformer (lets assume it's the primary,) fet and winding are across the 270v dc input voltage - but the fet is only turned on for a very short time, so it's not generating much power. Looks as though it is supposed to generate 5v at a significant current, and +/- 15v at somewhat less . Belling out the circuit round the fet and the unknown guts of the DK-466 is very confusing as it's a three layer board some of which is covered in heavy conformal coating but I think that one winding is generating a reference voltage with a zener diode, and another winding feeds the DK-466 as feedback - it's this I assume isn't working so the 'on' time of the fet isn't being tweaked.
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This may (or may not) not be help, but I found this link also.
http://www.antechenterprise.com/Stock.asp?Page=384 (http://www.antechenterprise.com/Stock.asp?Page=384)
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Andrew
maybe of help
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Special-promotions-DK-466-module-In-Stock-welcome-to-buy/217335_810050418.html
Stuart
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Wow chaps thanks you've cheered me up no end :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:
I suspect I'm going to have to pull the transformer AGAIN and also the DK-466 as everything round there is such low resistance that it make tracing the circuit neigh on impossible. I'm glad I got that SOIC unsoldering kit - not used it for SOIC's yet but it makes removing things like the transformer relatively easy with the very low melting point solder. I assume it's bismuth based like woods metal.
Hope to have another session going cross eyed circuit tracing after super ...
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OK NOW I'm confused :scratch: :scratch: but in quite a good way :clap:
It seems that the transformer I removed, previously, one coil of which is definitely driven by the FET off the rectified mains, also drives the other two transformers on the board, EACH of which provide four isolated + & - supplies. The first transformer also has one winding giving the 5v supply, another giving about 25 - 0 - 25 which goes to two 'conventional' series regulators, a 7815 (+15v) and a 7915 (-15v) both of which I had removed as at least the -15v one had blown up due to a blown capacitor on it's output. Tonight I decided to load the 5v supply with a 0.5 amp load, expecting it to drop like a stone. Not a bit of it - rock steady at 5v bang on to the nearest 10mV. This lead me to replace the 7815 (as I had one in stock), but to my surprise it only gave 7.8v unloaded, meanwhile the 5v supply was motoring along getting my load across it nice and warm !
So a few tentative conclusions:
A/ The DK-466 may not be faulty after all
B/ Either something down stream of the 7815 is heavily loading it, or there is something odd about the rectification from the transformer on this winding. Tomorrow I'll pull the 7815 out again (lucky I have a drawer full of them!) and load it's input independent of it's output circuitry and see what's amiss.
anyway it's sort of progress
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It would seem you know something about electronics!
Best of luck, keep on doing the incantations and you should get the magic white smoke in the right places!
Regards, Matthew
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Yes, haven't commented in a bit, but best wishes, still following right along. :beer:
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Andrew
Just another thought but does the machine have any more of the same pcbs on the other axises, if yes why dont you set another one up on the bench and have a careful probe around with the scope to get an idea of how its working. :med:
Best Regards
Fred
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Fred: yes it does, and that's a good idea, though it's an absolute pig to remove it.
OK results of a bit more poking around: Firstly see the very simple circuit I'm working with:
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I would say that one of the two little springs on the left have broke :D
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Now apart from the fact this is running at about 25 kHz there's nothing complicated there is there ? The positive output feeds the input to a 7815 regulator (+15v) , the negative output feeds the input to a 7915 regulator (+15). Both via a 'choke' winding on T2. Each rail has an electrolytic capacitor of 68uF and a 1 nF polyester capacitor from rail to common. Now bear in mind BOTH regulators have been removed for testing. Also bear in mind that these regulators are each rated at one amp, and are mounted on small upright heat sinks, so presumably are expected to be delivering at least a 100mA or so.
Right, so there is no load on either of the outputs as the regulator is removed - voltage from common to+ve is about +42v, and to -ve is about -35v so in the ball park of where you'd expect. If I load either of them with a 22k resistor, so only drawing perhaps 2 mA, the voltage drops to 12volts :doh:
High resistance transformer winding perhaps? No it measures virtually zero ohms. Dodgy diodes perhaps. Well very possibly. They only bear the marking "4L" with the cathode marked with a blue band. They may be some exotic species - quite possibly schottky fast recovery ones? I tried replacing them with 1N4007's from stock but only got about 12v out, then I tried 1N5819's which are the only schottky ones I have in stock, with the same result.
So what the heck is a '4L' diode? Poor things have been in and out of the board four times now.
Here is a picture of the little darlings, out and then back in the board.
By the way I had the second transformer out of the board to trace it's windings and it seems it's being used as a choke, three windings, each in series with a rectified transformer output.
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I should add that I have, with the power off, applied a lab supply to the +ve output of the circuit, and wound it up on minimum current limiting (20 ma) up to 20 volts. Repeated this on the -ve output, and also done it on the outputs from the regulators up to 15v (they are not in circuit), and am able to raise each rail to the set voltage drawing virtually nothing from the lab supply, so nothing is breaking down (other than perhaps me!) and limiting the voltage.
I remain confused, though it may be those diodes if I can find what the 'ell a 4L is :bang: :bang: :bang:
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what does the volts say with a scope instead of the DVM
evan my mk8 played merry hell with the voltage reading that had a say 20khz wave form , bear in mind I used to mess around with 432 mhz and 1.3 gig 1kw of the former and 100w on a good day with 1.3 gig my tuned cavity seem to dislke moisture in the air
had a quick look in my ancient data book no joy I am afraid they are not quite on velum but very near
Stuart
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I've only been measuring DC levels as quoted - my Avo & fluke both run out of steam at these frequencies and the 'Scope of course raises issues of the circuit 'floating' at a few hundred volts.
I did try measuring the ac output of the transformer whilst the diodes were removed, but it gets increasingly hard to interpret the results - I gave up when the 'scope (Tektronix 465) internal DC fuse blew :bugeye:
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I have not said this and is not to be done under any circumstances :Doh:
what we used to do when using a scope on floating ccts was to use marigolds ( proper kite marked ones ) and disconnect the earth on the scope :zap:
we did the same thing with our soldering irons ( before we got the isolated weller ones )
if you even think of doing the above take care
I guess from my posts I am of the old school sparks before H&S got into there swing , we had to sort it at the iron works it was 75 tons of molten CI at the bank it was the down time and pride
Stuart
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No doubt that was Stanton & Staveley ?
Yes we used to have the earth wire deliberately and very obviously poking out of the top of the 13a plug top so we could float the chassis of the 'scope when I worked for Ferranti all those years ago. I don't think that this fuse blowing was anything other than old age - it just happened when I turned the 'scope on and it was not connected to anything at the time.
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10/10 for your deduction powers
Stuart
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Andrew
if you are struggling with using the scope with a normal probe due to floating voltages if have got a pico battery powered differetial scope probe if you want to borrow it.
Its alot easier to loan that than my 1kva isloation transformer ( she weighs4or5kilos).
If you do want to borrow it pm me and ill drop in the post on saturday morning .im not using it at the moment, and the post will only be a couple of quid each way, you can have it till the end of may it it will help.
Best regards
Fred
ps trying to type from an android touch screen is not eay sorry about lack of capitals etc
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Fred that is a very generous offer - thank-you. Let me hold that option in reserve - I'm bracing myself to apply your other suggestion of a side by side comparison of the other unit.
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:bang: Well I MAY have been chasing Red Herrings :bang:
I was doing some tests with a load on the 5v rail to see the effect on the power V-Fet that is the main switching element, and sure enough with a load on. the 'On Time' increases (as does the frequency). Then it occurred to me, suppose that unloaded (as I've previously been testing), insufficient current is passing for the + & - 15 volt rails to be established, and the feedback loop is only monitoring the 5v rail? So I put a moderate load on the +15v rail (or rather the feed to the input of the 7815 which is out of circuit), and spun it up still with a load on the 5v rail - wohay - yes - volts! So on a roll I put the 7815 back in circuit, and we are developing 15.1 volts across the +15v rail. Can't do the -15 7915 as the postman hasn't brought them yet.
... this may be positive progress, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed :wave:
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Andrew
Glad to see that progress is being made :beer:
Switch mode psu's are, and always will be a pain in the rear :bang:
In the mid 90's I used to work for for a major British engineering company that produced power control equipment, One of my jobs their was to look after a production line that built approx 50,000 switch mode psu for for their products, I was responsible for the custom and COT's test equipment and supporting the shop floor staff and I spent upto 20 hours a week looking for obscure faults ( the designers where never interested as it was current product, they only interested in the new toys)
Nearly all of the shop floor staff where ladies - hundreds of them!! :bugeye: but that is another story.
Fred
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Fred,
your message just brought back a memory.
Aeons ago (before PCs, in fact I think it was before CP/M and WordStar) I was responsible for a dedicated word processing system made by "Xionics". One of the secretaries had endless trouble with her workstation hanging. We gave her several replacement workstations, she crashed them all; workstations that crashed for her worked OK for the other staff; and if she went to someone else's desk she would crash their workstation.
We joked that it was due to her 'magnetic personality, but one of my colleagues then discovered it was due to a combination of silk and satin :zap:
Dave
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but one of my colleagues then discovered it was due to a combination of silk and satin :zap:
Dave
Ah yes, research is a wonderful thing :D
Lee
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:ddb: :ddb: :ddb: RING THE CHURCH BELLS :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
:clap: :clap: :clap: Let everyone have Monday as a Holiday :clap: :clap: :clap:
Postie brought the 7915 today, I rapidly installed it and - plugging the logic card and option card into the intermediate power board (which had the fault) ...whoohay : we get "A6" which is "OK I'm here, now talk to me"
Pictures:
A/ Logic card loaded on, powered up showing "A6"
B/ Overview of same
C/ Re-assembled on high power chassis and still "A6"
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Now where do all these wires go ? :Doh: :Doh:
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We're ok - all back in and wired up next to it's twin, and making sense in it's conversations with the TX-8F controller
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Now perhaps I can get back to sorting out that relay logic problem :scratch:
Pictures:
A/ In and still "A6" before the controller speaks to it
B/ Controller wakes it up
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that is good news Andrew at least they are talking to each other ( in the same language I hope ) :)
can you not link out all the safety switches and relay in one go to prove the logic is ok then the sort out the rats nest :zap:
when faced with rats nest I made myself think one wire at a time
spent plenty of time with rats nests at S&S ( VIR wire ) and no drawings , I do think my year in armature/stator winding dept did instil patience in problem solving
Keep up the good work we are waiting for the first part to come off this beast
Stuart
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Thanks Stuart.
I've linked out the spindle 'zero speed' interlinks, but this door system is cunning :borg: The controller needs to see the sequence of 'Door Closed' then 'Door Open' Then 'Door Closed' it then shoots in a locking bolt and needs to see feedback that the bolt is locked. Then it needs to see 'Estop removed', then 'Drive Power On' before it will go 'Ready'. Anyone would think they were trying to design an interlock system that couldn't be easily defeated :lol:
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Excellent work :beer:
keep at it
Fred
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Spent quite some time today clearing away the electronic debris in the way of bits of test equipment etc to clear the deck for attacking those relays.
It suddenly dawned on me that the pain in the neck of having to keep squeezing round those doors all the time, and the fact that there was no place to put documents to read near enough could be solved. Take the bl***dy doors OFF - silly - should have done it weeks ago. The number of times I've caught my belt in the handle of the optical comparator that sits close behind the machine doesn't bear thinking about. :doh: :doh:
But now I'm told we have to go out, so no more playing today :(
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You need to do a Michael Caine :lol:
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Not many people know that ......
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If you don't get that
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As a few of the others have commented, i have NO idea what you're doing but it sounds as though it works, so just keep up the great work and i can't wait to see the post where it's finished and making parts!
Thanks for sharing!
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Henning: Thanks for the encouragement.
Originally this lathe had a bar feeder shoving working stock up the spout on demand from the controller. As I haven't got the bar feeder I need to work out how it interacts with the digital inputs and outputs of the TX-8F controller and also the relay logic. The Emergency Stop chain went through the bar-feeder, and I traced that today and linked it out of circuit. There are three digital inputs originating from contacts on the bar feed, and I think I'll make up a diddy test box so I can count through the 8 combinations and see what the software response is.
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Thats a hell of a lathe Andrew..getting it working looks like the easy bit..programming it to make parts..that could get complicated!
Nearly as nice as the parts master in the background :thumbup:
John
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Thats a hell of a lathe Andrew..getting it working looks like the easy bit..programming it to make parts..that could get complicated!
Nearly as nice as the parts master in the background :thumbup:
John
John, You have eagle eyes !!!
The Partsmaster needed little doing to it other than repair the damage to the Y travel ballscrew & nut caused by the carrier not securing the carriage in transit. The carriage had thrashed back and forth each time the lorry stopped and started and ended up destroying the screw & nut by hitting the end stop. Seller was miffed as I had made sure I'd paid him 'carriage inclusive of insurance'. The machine only has 3000 hours of 'power on time' from new ex Bristol University.
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Seller was miffed as I had made sure I'd paid him 'carriage inclusive of insurance'.
Let me guess, he thought he'd been clever by taking the 'insurance' money & not buying insurance from the courier, thus losing out?
Anyway.... I am mightily impressed at your perseverance with this Goliath of a machine - and at the progress you've made so far. Surely it can't be long now before the sleeping giant awakes...
I have to admit, it's stories like yours that make me worry about buying big 2nd hand industrial kit, the wiring in my comparatively titchy Bridgeport looks like 2 wires a battery & a bulb next to your behemoth.
Still, every morning & evening I dip into the threads, hoping that today is the "Eureka!" day & that you've made some chips.... but also hoping that it's not, but that some new hurdle has been overcome & the saga has at least one more episode in it yet.
Watching with fingers crossed!
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Still, every morning & evening I dip into the threads, hoping that today is the "Eureka!" day & that you've made some chips.... but also hoping that it's not, but that some new hurdle has been overcome & the saga has at least one more episode in it yet.
Watching with fingers crossed!
Same here - I check in like a soap addict looking for an update.
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The cream and brown paint scheme gave it away :D
The Partsmaster I have is very similar only 4000 on hours but probably only a few hundred machining hours.
Only problem I've had so far is the polistyrene caps going up in smoke on the Mentor spindle drive. Nearly everyone went at the same time due to damp where it was stored before I bought it. I bought a new set from RS components and replaced them all now it works great.
John.
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Awemawson
I continue to look forward to your progress every day knowing full well that very soon you will have all the dots connected and the t's crossed. This is one thread that I look for every time I sit down at the computer. Keep up the good work. :D :D
Cheers :beer:
Don (4636)
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You ought to nickname that machine Kellog because it's sure a great cereal :poke:
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Chaps thanks for the encouraging words - it really gives me a boost to think someone is actually interested and not bored out of their minds by my ramblings :wave: :wave: :wave:
Slow progress today: We are moving sheep, and today wasn't the best choice :doh: as the London to Hastings bike run is on and goes past the farm gate - thousands of motorbikes charging down, and getting a stock trailer out without ending up with bikes impaled in the side involves yellow jackets and lots of flagging down.
Last run now for a couple of hours so back to the beast ......
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Like a lot of others here I have been following this with great interest, and I do admire your tenacity.
John
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Still chasing my tail with the relay wiring on this machine - it just doesn't anything like conform to the wiring diagram that I have in the ESTOP chain and various complex safety circuits. I have discovered that there is a diagram dated '06/93' in existence (my machine delivered 07/93) whereas my drawing dates from 03/93 so perhaps they made some significant changes in that period. Next issue is persuading my contact to part with the drawing, which is proving a tough nut to crack at the moment :(
>> Later edit: OK it's a public holiday in Germany - maybe that's why no replies !!! << :doh:
However, if you recall the controversy regarding using the 10 slot controller rather than the six due to suspected addressing conflicts I think I have nailed it. The attached memory map for both controllers fell into my lap yesterday - sure enough there are differences, but A/ the I/o cards fall in the same range, and b/ where that pesky MC465 BRAM sits in the map is covered by a 1 Mbyte MC472 which came with the 10 slot controller. The net result is that the CPU 'sees' memory and input output devices at all the addresses it expects so I 'think' I can eliminate this from the list of suspects generating the various error messages I have.
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Still no circuit forthcoming from Germany, so I thought I'd try and track down some of the sensors that allegedly are reporting error conditions - this involved a bit of dismantling so I took a few pictures.
Main spindle drive is reporting an over temperature alarm - it has a sensor within it, so I dug down into the casing and got the wiring cover off the 18kW spindle servo motor:
.... needless to say the sensor says all's OK !
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To give you an idea of the size of this servo motor, here it is with a 24" ruler laying on top:
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It is belt driven, has a brake disk attached, and also a hydraulic clamping / un-clamping mechanism :
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This is the 2 HP servo motor for the Z drive ball screw:
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And this is the complexities of the 'opposing spindle' ie the one facing the main spindle. It has again a hydraulic clamp / un-clamp set up, with a host of proximity sensors:
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You know i really really admire your dogedness in pursuing this BUT if ever there was another reason needed NOT to go down the CNC route then this thread is it !
GOOD LUCK ! and may the fruition of your toils be soon. :coffee:
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Ah - but is it the end result or the journey that I 'enjoy' - I'll leave you to draw your own conclusion!
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Late yesterday brought an email with a large pdf file attached - yes at last the correct (hopefully) circuit has arrived. Printed out all 169 pages on my A4 laser printer, but I decided that now I have it as a pdf I would print out the relay side of things at A3 (old eyes you see - or rather don't :( ).
So this morning back into the fray: The relay in the following pictures had been giving me particular problems, and was causing other relays to chatter due to poor contacts. I can buy them still but firstly they are about £50 each, and secondly the contacts bear different numbers which will lead to future confusion, so - it has to come out and be cleaned.
First - remove all the (unlabeled) wires, and label them, putting a 'boot lace ferule' on each
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Then remove the relay, and take into the operating theatre:
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Separate the coil from the contact pack
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Open up the contact pack and carefully clean each contact with a scalpel. You could get special contact cleaning slightly abrasive pads for this job, but I've not seen any for years!
Test operation before replacing !
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Then pop it back in. Whole operation took just over an hour - now there are a further how many relays :bang:
However glad to say it's cured the chattering so a bit of progress :clap:
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another step forwards on the journey
congrats on getting the drawing with the same date as the machine it will help i am sure
Stuart
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Glad the relay is functioning again, awmawson! :thumbup:
I still use the old writing paper trick -- slid between contacts held closed for cleaning carbon from breaker points on my old tractors, and I have a point file or two in case of spikes and pits. I think you can still buy point files here at automotive supply stores.
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Glad to see some progress, I have got into a habit of check madmodders daily for progress, like a family member expecting good news at any moment :mmr:
keep at it we are all rooting for you :D
Fred
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Thanks Gents!
Sadly the contacts on these relays are recessed so the paper trick doesn't fit :( The contact surfaces are rare metal plated so I don't want to be too harsh with them - there seems to be a powdery deposit on some of them. Possibly oxide but I don't think so. I did another relay dismantle this afternoon, this time one with an auxiliary contact set added on the top. Doing the relay was just like the last one, but I could find no way of getting at the auxiliary contacts short of busting the plastic moulding. The contacts were bad, which is why I pulled it out, but I had in the end to try and flood the inside with contact cleaner / de-oxidiser and even getting that 'inside' was flaky - obviously essentially sealed. However working it by hand with the switch cleaner floating around in the end gave a good contact, but not a satisfactory solution really.
Meanwhile if anyone knows a source of Siemens relays at a sensible price:
Main relay 3TH 2031-0BB4 (3 N/O & 1 N/C 24v DC coil)
Aux Block 3TX442-2A (2 N/O & 2 N/C)
please let me know. They need really to have the same numbering scheme as the following pictures - the are a few around marked up L1 L2 L3 but I feel that is just going to lead to confusion in the future
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awemawson
I tried looking for the part numbers that you listed and I think I may have found something. Here is the link to it.
http://www.ebay.fr/sch/sis.html?_nkw=Siemens+3TH2031+0BB4+Schutz+mit+Hilfsschutz+3TX4422+2A+&_itemId=110846361606
I will continue to keep looking to see if anything else shows up at a reasonable price.
Cheers :beer:
Don
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Here is a lot of 6 Contactors
http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-OF-6-SIEMENS-3TH2031-0BB4-CONTACTOR-3NO-1NC-10A-24VDC-/130891552864?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e79be9860
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Hi,
Had a bit of a look arround the normal suppliers and found these
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/contactors/7352787/ relay only
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/contactors/4111700/ with aux contacts push in
Cheers
Abraham
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Thanks Abraham and others. Problem with the RS ones is at £39 plus 20% VAT you are at the circa £50 level which is why I was casting around looking for good used ones. The various one not in the UK seem quite reasonable until you calculate the shipping, which brings them up to 2/3rds new price. As there are so many of the darn things it get pricey very quickly :(
Not much activity recently on the machine - I've been called away to sort other things. We've got some large scale building works going on here, and the builder (who I've employed for over a year now) has gone to pieces over the potential loss of his mum who is having heart troubles. This gives scheduling issues so for instance I have to get 1100 tons of earth shifted tomorrow!
Lucky I'm not using a shovel and barrow:
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If only you had some kind of large capacity CNC lathe machine, you'd be able to turn out loads of shovel shafts and wheelbarrow parts.... :whip:
:lol:
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I made good use of my enforced imprisonment in the farm office to go through all 160 plus pages of the circuit diagrams pulling out all references to inputs and outputs to and from the NC controller as I was sure something was missing. I put them all in a spreadsheet, which has allowed me to sort them by i/o address and also by terminal number. Sure enough I've found five inputs that are not documented and contacting Traub, they also don't know what they do :bang: So next job is to put the cable tracer on them and plot them out.
If you are having a really boring day have a read of the spreadsheet:
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And to keep Adev happy - yes the earth moved for me! It took four of us from 07:00 to 22:00 non stop. My shovel and barrow are in the second picture! Just need to let the place it was dry a bit then harrow and re-seed.
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Yep, that's what I call a spade & a wheelbarrow :) If only I had the room for such toys....
Loving the gate BTW.
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I enjoy this thread and admire your patience. was pleased to see the gate was shut to keep the livestock in. :clap:
John
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We call that 'The Gate to Nowhere' - it used to be the access to a smallish paddock, but we took the stock fencing down to let the dumpers better access when we dug out the ditches and stream a couple of years ago. The paddock will be reinstated soon, with a double stock fence with hedging between.
Anyway - back on topic: Tonight I've been buzzing out those elusive input output lines. It turns out it's down to two manufacturing errors :bang: all be it slight ones. Firstly two of the termination blocks on my machine were incorrectly labeled, and secondly the 'survey' printed in the circuit diagram showing physical locations also has an error. In the attached picture the upper terminal block, which is 'X206' is labelled 'X103', and the block below it is actually 'X103' but wasn't labelled. :bang:
Makes a lot more sense now.
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The suspense is killing me! How is this going?
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The suspense is killing me! How is this going?
It's not, thats the problem. :(
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I think I alluded to this is a previous posting, but we are coming to the end of a major refurbishment here involving rebuilding the farm house, renovating two cottages and some substantial landscaping, and the poor old 'main contractor' has had a bit of a breakdown, meaning I've had to take on his role. Fortunately I've been able to use his sub-contractors (some of which are his sons) but it takes up all my play time :(
However there has been some progress on the machine. Firstly I think I've solved the relay issue. I now have the correct circuit as far as I can tell, and have sourced some identical relays from German eBay:
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Then there has been a bit of a break through on the controller front. Readers may remember that I could not get the original '6 slot' controller to work. I was getting 'bus errors' reported when the 'user plc' was run. The machine obviously needs the correct software to run correctly - this comprises an eprom set on the main processor card, an eprom set on the 'Mem A0 & MemA1' cards that hold the system PLC program, and an eprom set on the 'MC481' 'User PLC Cartridge'. I had been advised that I needed V18 of this later unit - this is the label on it:
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I wrongly assumed that the V 018 was version 18 oh no that's V 22 :bang: :bang:
With the correct user plc cartridge now when I try the 6 slot controller I no longer get the 'bus error' which I assume was the program addressing non-existant memory.
Whilst all this was going on, my mole on the Traub help desk decided to go on a fortnights holiday so it is only today that I can confirm various points. I suspect that one of the axis servo amplifiers is faulty but haven't had the time to get my teeth into it. Now the software issues are hopefully behind me it may just be a parameter issue.
The system reports it's firmware state when eventually you find how (!) and the first picture is how it was, and the second how it now is
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Good work! Particularly with all the other concerns. Gratifying screen! :thumbup: :clap:
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Awemawson
Thanks for the update and glad to hear that you are making progress on getting everything tracked down. :ddb: :ddb:
We the readers and followers on this thread sometimes tend to forget that the author of this thread has more to do than just trouble shoot a CNC mill. :Doh:
Carry on with the important task of refurbishing house and home. We will be here waiting as you have the time and/or patience to continue trouble shooting the mill. :D :D
Cheers :beer:
Don
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I actually managed to spend a little time with The Beast today! For some very strange reason the machine is set up with an 'extra' X axis!!!!
We should have:
X1 = lathe tool in / out radially
Z1 = lathe tool in/out axially
C1 = rotary position of the main spindle
C2 = rotary position of the auxiliary spindle
V1 = axial position of the auxiliary spindle
BUT .... we also have X2. Now I hadn't realised the significance of this, but my contact at Traub pointed it out as the reason we are getting an "Y03 - Amplifier Unequipped - X" error. He had sent me various settings in the parameters for me to check, as well as the parameters for the next machine made on the production line (s/n 334 mine being 333) which is basically the same machine but sold in France so all the text is different. Not over come the extra displayed axis. I can get it removed from the screen displays ok but then the 'opposing / auxiliary amplifier' never gets initialised. Then the machine displays an 'mcp error' (addressing error in the servo amps) and very obscurely in this state prevents the RS232 port working. As soon as you try to use it it reports "IO_Stop". Re-instate the axis settings and the port works ---- argh !
When I was given the Optical Tool Setter there was a second, apparently original paper tape of the parameters tucked away in it's box. I thought that it would be a good idea to try and upload it to a pc and see if it made any difference. Loads of problems loading it - after much searching I found two places where the sprocket holes had never been punched in the factory. Yes that took lots of finding. :bang: When I hand punched the missing holes and got it loaded it compared as the same as the other copy.
Still I see today's work as progress of a sort, and I'm increasingly confident that the errors remaining are settings issues.
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I can't wait to see some parts produced, but in the meantime, the sheer awesomnes of your project keeps me on my toes :clap:
Impressive!
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After this tremendous project, the first parts produced are probably going to be the cranks for a small manual lathe!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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So just to prove I've not been entirely idle a little bit of a progress report:
(Times been short, since my last post I've built and tiled a porch and a gas bottle store, repaired a 'post knocker' for the tractor and put in 100 metres of stock fence, done a few trips to the abattoir - and occasionally escaped to the work-shop).
I decided that one issue I ought to be able to fix relatively easily was the 'X Axis Overload Trip' error. I had already proved that the proximity sensor for this was indeed giving an output, so the error report was genuine, and if I fiddled the output electrically the report was cancelled. So the task was to expose the sensor and see if either the sensor was faulty or the overload clutch had tripped. Easy to say, but the X axis assembly is a huge enclosed lump that holds not only the servo motor for the X axis drive, but also the rotation drive for the tool turret, and also the motor that powers the active tooling in the turret. All this is enclosed in tin work to keep coolant and swarf at bay, and is swathed in screws (why use so many different head styles :( Three hex socket sizes, slotted screws and bolt heads!)
Eventually got the covers off:
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To expose the innards:
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Can you see the sensor?
No - nor could I !!!!!
I could feel it, I could see it and the overload clutch using a mirror, but only by climbing inside the lathe and standing on the swarf conveyor.
Clutch had not tripped, but sensor was loose in its clamp, had rattled too close to the bit of the clutch it had to monitor and hence had given the error. Quick tweak with an allen key and error now cleared - only took two days of odd hours to get at it :med:
Still it's IS progress :)
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The inductive proximity sensor shows up in picture 1448 in case you haven't spotted it. (Camera being held over the back of the assembly)
(And for those of you worried that that gate lead nowhere - here it is with the grass just beginning to grow where that huge pile of earth was)
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The inductive proximity sensor shows up in picture 1448 in case you haven't spotted it. (Camera being held over the back of the assembly)
(And for those of you worried that that gate lead nowhere - here it is with the grass just beginning to grow where that huge pile of earth was)
awemawson
I always figured that you would find a good use for that gate even though it did seem to be out in the middle of nowhere. With all that you have been up to, it's making me tired just reading about it.
I think that I managed to find the sensor now that you told us where to look. Glad to see that it was an easy fix and cheap. Let's hope that they are all like that. I'll be following along as you solve the next piece of the puzzle. :D :D
Cheers :beer:
Don
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One more task off the list! :thumbup: :clap:
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I'm reading this thinking that soon we're going to be reading about it making chips. Well done.
Projects like this one always make me wonder how the machine got into that state though. I can see that if the machine stopped working it could be sold - but then you'd expect to find one fault - or one fault and some sign of bodging the others. In practice though you find several faults that have apparently developed simultaneously while the machine hasn't been touched - usually on those things that you buy thinking "It'll be a simple fix".
Russell
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Well in fairness I never expected it to be an easy fix. The previous owner had sporadically tried over a period of more than a year. He did involve the makers who diagnosed some of the problems with the controller, but he couldn't afford their quoted estimate of about £7K for parts to fix the controller. Unfortunately I think I'm now finding not only the original problems, but those introduced by the several people who have gone this way before me. However I'm pretty sure now that the hardware of the controller is ok - I'm down to the options & parameters that tell it what to do, and it's various peripheral bits and bobs like servo amps, sensors, etc. However I WILL GET THERE (someday!)
There are two dual 'zero speed relays' that monitor the various axis servo motors and form part of the safety chain preventing the cabinet door being opened when they were turning. I know one at least is faulty, and currently I have linked all four sections out in the relay logic so I can continue fault finding. They are rather obscure however eBay in the US has produced one for me which arrived today. I suspect they are fixable, and now I have a spare I'll venture inside a faulty one and see if they respond to diagnosis.
This is what they look like:
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Managed to get time this morning to fit the spare "Zero Speed Relay" and as far as I can tell with the machine static, it seems to do what it is supposed to.
Having removed the faulty one this has allowed me to open it up and investigate - this is how it is constructed:
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The cards unplug :
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And seem to comprise two identical detector cards:
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And what I assume is a Power Supply card:
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This is pretty certainly the fault as there is what I assume was once a resistor looking rather sorry for itself:
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The unit runs off 24v DC but the sensors, which are two terminal inductive ones, are biased by an 8v internally generated supply that currently is giving 24v !
I think it must be a chopper / switched mode type but as yet I've not done anything other than a visual inspection. There is a pair of mystery components that will probably end up being transformers, but that's just a guess at the moment - my googling on the numbers hasn't given me any pointers:
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Nice -- its own little bus. Makes it easier to work on. No wonder they are expensive!
Seems you have a good chance of repairing it/them. :clap:
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Things progress apace! :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
The two 'Zero Speed' relays form two chains of contacts in the safety interlock circuit. A 'normally open' chain, and a 'normally closed' chain. The previous owner had wired out one half of the faulty relay. When I installed the replacement, I decided to strip out the wiring for both contact chains, and re-wire them. I did this mainly as the wiring was a bit tatty and several wires were not numbered and identified - it was easier to start again and do it properly. Turns out the previous chap mixed up two contacts.
Having finished the re-wire I powered up and started the controller, and thought - hang on that start up sequence sounds unfamiliar. Different relays clicking etc, then all the servo and axis drives came up with an unfamiliar code on their displays. I went round the front to the operators panel, and what do you know - the system had gone READY !
I went quite wobbly at the knees - I now desperately need to work out a safe sequence to start things up without causing loads of damage from my ignorance. It is complaining now of low hydraulic pressure - hardly surprising as the hydraulic pump isn't running. I know that the pump works as I've previously manually operated its relay to check its direction of rotation, but there must be some sequence to get the controller to start it.
I'm teetering on the brink of getting this beast doing things under its own steam
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Woo Hooo!!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Well done, I can't wait to see the video of it working :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
Tim
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Teriffic news - I don't think I can go to work tonight now :D
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By ek that psi board has seen some heat on that resistor :zap:
Con crats on the ready state
now for the big question dare you power up the spindle and make it do something
well done 10 extra points for perseverance
Stuart
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A bit more progress. OK it seems that there is a sequence you have to go through to get the hydraulic pump going. Now it is ....
I can:
a/ Jog the X axis both +ve and -ve
b/ Jog the Z axis both +ve and -ve
c/ Jog the V axis only away from the main spindle (this is the auxiliary spindle)
d/ Rotate the C2 axis to its datum (this is the auxiliary spindle rotary positioning)
e/ If I try to start the main C1 spindle I drop my 30mA RCD trip that is in my 3 phase distribution box
f/ I can open and close the hydraulic collet closer on both spindles
I'm not particularly surprised at e/ as no doubt the leakage of an 18kW inverter drive is high and most industrial rcd's would be 100mA
The result of c/ is that I have now jogged V to the end of it's travel and it is reporting a V axis overload (that pesky proximity sensor like the one I fixed on the X axis) There is a software switch to allow you to jog out of this condition, but of course the issue is I cannot jog in the right direction so I will have to dig into the mechanics and try and wind the motor back manually to continue fault finding.
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Ahhhhh, axis movement!!!! It's alive.......
Congrats! :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Well you had 'READY', what you just said sounds like 'STEADY', on the way for 'GREEN' to 'GO' :clap:
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So today's task: Reset that V axis overload clutch.
Obvious thing to do is expose the drive to the ball screw, and hand rotate it in the opposite direction until the overload clutch clicks back into place. Only one problem, the drive servo motor is low slung at what would be the tailstock end of a conventional lathe sitting just above the huge swarf conveyor. There does seem to be an access cover however this involves moving the swarf conveyor to get it off. As this took four of us a couple of hours to maneuver into position when I got the machine, I'm loath to do that.
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So maybe I can get at the ball screw from the other end? It's under this way cover:
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Yes sure enough, removing the suspiciously loose screws that retain it reveals the ball screw and LOADS of brass swarf.
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Cleaned it all up a bit, and grasping the ball screw easily managed to bring the V axis assembly back towards the headstock end. After a turn or two there was a satisfying 'clunk' as the overload clutch dropped back into position.
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So put it all back together, cleaned up the way cover a bit and tried starting up.
Sure enough V axis overload error is now cleared and I can bring the beast to a 'ready' state, get the hydraulics running and jog X & Z. Jogging V it won't go towards the headstock, and when trying to jog towards the tailstock it carries on going after I take my finger off the button. Emergency Stop button prevented another V axis overload error.
So my next task is to fault find the V axis - it could simply be a sticking 'go right' button, but I don't think so as same button is used for the Z axis jogging.
As those retaining screws were only finger tight I suspect someone has been in here fault finding just prior to me getting the lathe.
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It's all happening now! I decided to uprate the main workshop RCD to 100mA trip. Had one in stock so it was an easy choice. (*) Now the C1 main spindle axis is more than happy to turn without tripping the RCD. I suspect that the original 30mA one was perhaps over sensitive - my plunger EDM machine had also taken to tripping it and that is now ok.
V axis still only jogs in one direction. I have my suspicions though. The servo amplifier has an 'absolute positioning system' whereby it keeps it's absolute position in battery backed ram so you don't have to travel over reference points each time you power up.. The value currently held is a stupidly large negative number. I need to find out how (and where) to re-reference it to a sensible value.
But I think we are getting there . . . . . . where ever there is :clap: :clap:
(*) personally I'd be much happier at 30mA which will save a life, whereas 100mA will prevent a fire but still kill you. I'd opted originally for 30mA as on some three phase machines I have a standard UK 13Amp dual switched socket for convenience to power DRO's etc that is sourced from phase one and neutral.
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We have to turn up the RCD mA when we hire large portable generators. They don't like the big motor startups, even on the newest euro-start machines. It's caught a few of the guys out, had them opening up the commando plugs looking for water etc.
So you've ran the spindle then. What's left to do before it'll actually cut chips?
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Well I need to learn a lot for starters!
I think that the V axis issue is a referencing one. I'm not sufficiently familiar with the operation to have much confidence jogging things around without bits touching each other. I've not yet got the tool turret to index, nor the powered tooling to turn, but hey who wants to finish a good book. :lol:
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don't put to much faith in those RCD's they can make you think you have all the bases covered but get across two phases one in each hand and its good night sweetheart :zap:
yes they do a good job but they are not the be all and end all
most 240 vac equipment that has a delta suppression cap network ( most of the variable speed lathes ) fall into this will trip a domestic RCD due to the leakage on the caps ( the inrush can also trip them )
but just a thought when yo have run the spindle for a while and got some work out of it ( nice and warm ) it may well be OK on the lower RCD ( it may be damp ) but I will guess that its the odd order harmonic suppression circuit that may well be the cause
Stuart
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I don't think the rcd issue is leakage in the conventional sense of ohms to earth due to damp or poor insulation. The inverter / chopper spindle drive produces quasi AC by fast switching a DC rail. This inevitably produces a high frequency source that through the stray capacitance of the wiring gives sufficient 'leakage' current to trip some devices. The cheaper PC power supplies are notorious for this.
http://www.gtproductions.com.au/Mopping%20Up%20Earth%20Leakage.pdf
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If its got one of those fitted then I am surprised that the 100ma one held up
OT
when I was at work I was with NWB as a supervisor in the facilities dept ( engineering ) we had a pretty hefty cable burn out about 150 amp TP&N 4 core but only the neural was affected , this cable was only feeding a office section with many PC mainly Dell's , the cable was duly replaced , but being me I was not satisfied that we had the problem buttoned down so out came the tong testers , red was 30 amp yellow was 32 amp blue was 28 amp so we were balanced ok , the shock came when we tested the neutral over 200 amp , out came the scope it was all odd order harmonics 7th and 9th
That was all down to the switch mode psu in the Dell's they were overlaying the 50hz with a lot of HF and causing the cable to only carry the current in the skin ( high frequency skin effect )
keep up the good work you are very close now the winning post is only 1 fault away
Stuart
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Yes defo sounds like a reference position issue on that axis..should be a way of re zeroing the encoder or it could be a soft limit setting that needs changing or re setting..
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Yes it was a referencing issue preventing the V axis moving towards the headstock end. Had a good look with a torch to find the proximity sensor and it's associated lump that it detects - can just see it looking down an access panel at the tailstock end. This showed it was set to reference at the extreme rightwards travel, and I was thus given the confidence to fast (not very!) travel it to close in jog mode then do a final approach in reference mode. Lo and behold the V axis value was then set to a sensible figure (it had been at something like -24000 mm) and I could then move the axis in jog mode in both directions.
All axis reference points are the same mechanically - a three terminal magnetic proximity sensor on a bracket looking for a simple cylindrical collar that is fixed with a set screw on a shaft parallel to the axis motion. Seems crude, but I suppose that the sensors are very repeatable.
I think that there is still a 'funny' to solve on the axis servo drivers - the absolute axis position is supposed to be retained on power off, and on two axis it is being lost despite the battery measuring ok, and also having been changed anyway. Not the end of the world if I cannot solve it - just means I'd have to re-reference after a power down.
Next thing to investigate is the tool turret - see if I can get a bit of time later today.
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Today was one of those days when circumstances stop you doing things :( We seemed to have an endless stream of visitors all morning expecting teas and coffees - don't these people realise some of us just need to slink off to the workshop! Seriously though it it nice to have visitors.
Eventually I managed to get to the coal face and look at this turret issue. Turns out no way is the tool turret going to turn unless the safety cover is closed and locked. There are three digital inputs for 'door open' 'door closed' and 'door locked' and although the 'door open' one is toggling as the door moves, the others don't. What is supposed to happen is that a relay latches on for 'open', is released as the door closes, and another relay latches on for 'closed'. When the controller sees the 'closed' state it fires a solenoid bolt, and a feedback contact for this bolt generates the 'locked' status. The 'closed' relay is briefly clicking over but not latching on.
I strongly suspect that the latch circuitry was originally routed through the bar feeder, which I don't have, so I'll probably end up having to link it out. Not proved yet so something for tomorrow when I get back from taking four pigs on their last journey.
Investigation was greatly hampered by having all the relay logic at the back, and the safety sliding cover at the front, so you cannot see whats going on as you slide the door :( Eventually solved this conundrum using the 'Indian Rope Trick' . I tied a length of rope to the door handle, and passed it right round the machine and back to the handle. Now I can slide the door from the back. :clap: :clap: A low tech solution to a high tech problem.
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My handy piece of rope has let me at last diagnose the door relay logic fault - we now have 'door open', 'door closed' and 'door locked' relays all doing what they should do, and about time too, I've been all round the houses on this one. In the end it proved to be a 'normally open' contact that was never closing - had to pull the relay (M1-K8 for the record) and dismantle and clean its contacts as I had no spare for that variety.
Now the door lock solenoid fires whenever an axis is moving or a spindle is turning - all clever stuff. Also now the jogging 'rapid' button works when the door is closed but is inhibited when it is open.
So on to the the Tool Turret. It is saying 'Turret is not locked' at the moment. This is the tool turret:
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well done it will not be long now , it does look as if the major hurdles are behind you now
Stuart
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Apart from the obvious mechanical assembly that holds a twelve station tool carousel, buried in the works there are all sorts of goodies. There is a solenoid for locking, a feedback sensor to say 'locked', an encoder to say where the turret is rotationally, a motor to turn the turret either clockwise or anti-clockwise to select which tool to use, a motor to drive the 'driven tooling' (end mills, drills etc) and finally a valve to control the through tool coolant. Pulling off the two cover plates doesn't give very good access One reveals the wiring connections and the other the solenoid and encoder.
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The reported 'not locked' status is entirely correct - I can turn the carousel by hand. Oddly to my mind the locking solenoid seems to be biased to the 'unlocked' state, and powered to 'lock' this doesn't seem right to me. It all looks rather rusty and grotty, but the solenoid moves freely enough and if I push it into the 'locked' position, the digital input for the feedback sensor changes state. Also if I rotate the turret by hand, the encoder bits count up in binary correctly.
I now need to devise a way of powering the solenoid remotely so I can see what is happening. It's the old case of 'the actions round the front, and I need to be round the back' :bang:
Have a picture of a rusty solenoid:
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well done it will not be long now , it does look as if the major hurdles are behind you now
Stuart
Thanks Stuart, yes it seems to be coming together at last. Still loads to learn about this machine. Amazing what facilities have been built into it.
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Amazingly I found some web documentation on the tool turret: http://tinyurl.com/toolturret The numbers are the same but it is not quite identical. It has a useful cross sectional drawing that I'm trying to interpret.
A bit of investigation this evening has proved that the lock solenoid (which draws 2 amps at 24v DC) works, and if jiggle the turret round to a correct position drops in its locking hole and provides feedback that I can read as a digital input. However the turret still has a bit of radial movement - looking at that drawing in the link above it implies there is also a toothed 'Hirth Serration' detent that possibly isn't seating firmly.
I've also proved that the motor that turns the turret works both forwards and backwards by manually operating its contactors. The relay that drives the solenoid is a plug in variety and suspiciously it has obviously been changed at some time as it is a different colour from the rest, however there is a tell tale LED on the relay drive digital output that is not lighting so perhaps some software condition has not been met to get it activated. More head scratching.
Here's a bad quality picture of the bank of relays:
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And I thought I had trouble when the drive belt snapped on the trusty ML7 ?
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I've not doubt that you'd carry a spare John, if you could find it in your den of iniquity :lol:
A bit of web browsing leads me to suspect that the Sauter design works by indexing round to the 'hole' for the solenoid locking pin, before a tool position, firing the pin into the hole, then reversing the drive motor which allows two plates with wavy surfaces and a set of rollers between them to force the Wirth Coupling together by cam action. Release is by popping the pin in, and driving the motor. This is conjecture based on a problem someone had on the Practical Machinist site:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/sauter-turret-fagor-8055-dont-seem-like-each-other-266023/
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I've not doubt that you'd carry a spare John, if you could find it in your den of iniquity :lol:
After recently selling or scrapping 7 machines I have a semblance of clean floor, mind you the fact that I have rushed out after suffering from clean floor syndrome and bought three new machines has helped slightly.
I do have to be careful and keep in close contact with Tim Leech over disposals and acquisitions or the east / west fulcrum of the UK is going to suffer.
As it is all aircraft flying into East Midlands have been advised to re-calibrate their compass's
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Overnight, the nice man from Sauter has emailed me the complete 24 page manual for the Tool Turret disclosing all it's little locking secrets.
This has revealed a screw that you can remove to let a hex key be inserted into the motor shaft, to allow manual locking - basically you turn until the locking pin drops in, then holding the pin in, reverse direction until the cam rollers lock the Wirth Coupling, then the pin can be released. This explains why in the locked mode the locking pin isn't in the lock hole! In fact they call in a pre- indexing pin so all is forgiven.
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:ddb: :ddb: :ddb: The Tool Turret Lives :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
Now the Tool Turret rotates to the selected tool on command from the Operators Panel. The rotation from station to station is by an in built three phase motor, with the usual arrangement of two contactors, one for forwards and one for reverse. However this system has a third contactor feeding the first two, and should be pulled in by the logic line 'motors on' However this is routed through a Platinum Resistance Temperature sensing relay box, with its Pt sensor embedded in the tool post somewhere. Lights on the front of the box claimed all was well - but it lied! The supposedly closed contact was open, hence no power to the tool turret.
This is the box of tricks:
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Fortunately an openable unit susceptible to tinkering! Here I've substituted an 180 ohm resistor for the pt element and opened it for testing
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The offending part is a pcb mounted relay - yet more bad contacts - I've had a few :bugeye:
This one was easy to fix - with gentle persuasion the plastic cover pops off, and I could scrape the contacts and spray them with contact cleaner:
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Next thing to check out is the motor and drive for the driven tools on the turret. I want to remove all the driven tools first, as some of the spare ones that came with the machine were seized solid. Obviously if any of the mounted one are in a similar state damage will be done. The jacking screws that clamp and unclamp the VDI tools on the way out have a collar that bears on a clirclip to give it something to extract against - several of the circlips are missing - standard 14mm internal ones so an order for a packet of them has gone off to BearingBoys this morning.
Soon I'm going to have to work out how to take a video of it doing things - my only video recorder is my iPhone and trying to shoot things through the closed safety door results in only the door being in focus. Of course if the door is open the machine refuses to come out and play !
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Got my bucket of pop corn ready, would like to say I have some wine/beer ready for the big event ( but my meds preclude the intake of alcohol )
Stuart
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Haven't commented for a while as I've been awestruck :nrocks:
Well done sir your patience is awesome >LOL
Fred
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Coming along in leaps and bounds now!
Err, you do know how to program it to make something, don't you?
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:clap: :clap: No I don't :clap: :clap:
However I do have a bit of programming documentation, and also some programs written back in 1993 by Dorman Diesels to make widgets for their engines, so I have a starting point!
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Ok a crude iPhone video of the turret working, then the opposing spindle moving is here:
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Swarf please. 2013 vintage. :whip:
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It moves :jaw: al on its own :drool: :bigeye:
Stuart
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VERY VERY JEALOUS!
I can't wait to see this machine make some swarf, I have a feeling it's going to be tremendous (either that, or the biggest tool-crash in madmodder history....)
Re video - why not buy a cheap 2nd hand GoPro (or even a proper 250 quid new one), IIRC there are various kits, some of which will include a suction mount & a waterproof case; ideal for mounting inside the the machine to get those full HD swarfy shots.
I have to say - I am in awe of your skills & patience; I have a feeling I would have lost interest long ago & found some other stir-crazy project to get involved with.
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Well I had to fix it Adev - it's too big a lump to keep tripping over when it doesn't work! But thanks for the kind words.
Today my task was to remove all the VDI tooling from the tool turret to ensure that none of the driven tools were seized before I spun up the tool power motor.
VDI tools are retained by a stout pin sticking into a socket on the turret, with a rack shape cut into the pin. A similarly racked wedge piece pulls them onto a mounting face and is secured by an allen headed bolt. To remove them the bolt is loosened, and the top of its head bears on a washer that in turn bears in a circlip acting as a shoulder. This pulls the racked wedge out releasing the tool.
Several of the circlips had been lost. It turns out that the tooling was so firmly in, and the wedge so tight, that it wasn't coming out without a few stout raps from a copper mallet on the tool block. Eventually they all came out:
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It turns out that there was only one powered tool installed:
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So this let me get on with testing the tool power motor. Long shot is that it works and can be driven cw and ccw at a controlled speed - I think it's 2 HP so Bridgeport sort of power.
Along the way a couple of irritations happened:
Firstly that temperature relay failed again for no good reason - I temporarily linked it out of circuit and got on with it, but I've just again dismantled it, cleaned the relay contacts, re-soldered the pcb joints and put it back with no definite fault found apart from it can only be the relay contacts or wires going to them, as the relay was energised when the fault was present.
Secondly the monitor screen went blank, then came back - loose mains connection found in its sealed box (only 14 screws and a gasket :) )
As I was testing the drive, I also played in MDI mode starting and stopping the main spindle - hey what's that odd clicking noise :( It turns out that while a program is running the amber beacon that I repaired yonks ago lights up, and when it ends it flashes - the clicking was its relay :clap:
Have an amber beacon:
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I eventually got to the bottom of the Temperature Relay issue - in fact the relay contact wasn't being pushed firmly enough against its partner. Although I've given it a tweak and it now works fine, I've ordered a replacement relay for better reliability - only £2 off ebay !
I think I have now got all functions that I can test at this point working - even the little 'parts catcher' flipper scoop that can be extended under the part before parting off. A few things cannot be checked until I fill her up with coolant (220 litres :bugeye: )
So time to start putting the tin work back round the X axis and Tool Turret. It needs a clean up before fitting, and close examination shows one part has some horrid corrosion - Very odd as it is limited to one small location, some swarf must have got trapped there that they had been machining that set up an electrolytic reaction with the steel:
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Options - Cut out the offending bit and mig in a replacement, or re-make it
I decided to re-make this part - but when I checked my stock I had no 1.5mm sheet, only 1.0 & 1.2 - as this mounts wipers to keep the coolant out I don't want to go any thinner.
I thought I'd had a go at 'lead loading' - the old fashioned bodywork repair method - not done it since the mid 1970's when I did the doors of my late brothers MG TC !
So - sandblast clean:
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Clamp it down against a wooden backing sheet:
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And solder it. I used a blow torch and 'leadfree solder'
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Then clean it up a bit:
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I decided that the result was less than brilliant, and I've ordered some 1.5mm sheet :bang:
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nearly there now if you are on to body work
boy thats a lot of coolant its a drum full of concentrate about 45 litters if my memory is correct
Stuart
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Better make sure the drain plug is in tight :)
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I have to hand it to you awemawson, you think big! :bow: :beer:
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High there, Awemawson,
When you get it all going, shall you do guided tours? :D :D :D
(It looks as though there'll be no trouble finding a place to park the charabanc but will there be a burger stall?) :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Parking: well we've just finished (today) laying 40 tons of pea shingle over the parking area and bits around the cottages - something like 750 -800 sq metres so lots of room for the odd charabanc or two
Burger Stall: Well much to the annoyance of our nearest neighbour half a mile away, there is often a burger stall in the lay by on the opposite side of the A21 so catering isn't an issue
Accommodation: Well there's a field to camp in if the weather holds like it is
So when are you all coming?
:beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:
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Re video - why not buy a cheap 2nd hand GoPro (or even a proper 250 quid new one), IIRC there are various kits, some of which will include a suction mount & a waterproof case; ideal for mounting inside the the machine to get those full HD swarfy shots.
Well Adev I've acted on your advice and ordered a GoPro 2 Outdoor Edition - so hopefully video quality might improve a tad as the camera can be inside the machine enclosure. I'm tempted to get a wifi back for it, but I suspect that would compromise the watertightness, and I'm not convinced that the signal will penetrate the few non metallic openings in the machine enclosure.
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No guarantees but you could try a couple of wi-fi antennae (classical scholar, me!), connect them with a suitable length of coax and fit one inside the enclosure and the other outside, sort of a deliberate RF leak.
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:clap: amo, amas, amat, amamus, amatis, amant :clap:
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Re video - why not buy a cheap 2nd hand GoPro (or even a proper 250 quid new one), IIRC there are various kits, some of which will include a suction mount & a waterproof case; ideal for mounting inside the the machine to get those full HD swarfy shots.
Well Adev I've acted on your advice and ordered a GoPro 2 Outdoor Edition - so hopefully video quality might improve a tad as the camera can be inside the machine enclosure. I'm tempted to get a wifi back for it, but I suspect that would compromise the watertightness, and I'm not convinced that the signal will penetrate the few non metallic openings in the machine enclosure.
Woo!
They seem to be really good, those GoPros, I never quite got around to buying one myself (none of my machines are encolosed, so the cheapo Kodak thing I bought suffices for now), but I would like to.
Where, approximately, are you in the country? Might have to swing by one of these days....
Also - for lube, don't forget you can get a discount from Lube Tech Shop (see the "Vendor specials" board) IIRC it's 10%, I bought a 25ltr drum of "Excelfluid Ultra EPDX Soluble Cutting oil 25 litre" - not cheap, but the first batch I made up about 9 months ago, is still in the sump of the Bridgeport now, & still neither stinks nor has it gone lumpy, so I'm assuming the bugs don't like it. Dilute 10% and 1 drum will fill your lathe... with a few litres spare for spillage!
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PM sent but TN33 0RG
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Good grief that's not far from me , and I thought I was in a desert on the A28 , been following this thread from the start you have put a lot of time and effort into this , keep it up .
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:clap: amo, amas, amat, amamus, amatis, amant :clap:
Caesar ad sum iam forte, Pompey aderat.
Caesar sic in omnibus, Pompey sic in at.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
And a line from a poem by Catullus, I've forgotten the Latin but I identify with the English so it has has stayed with me:
"Alas, my purse is full of cobwebs".
I see you have a Rother, so do we, it eventually flows into the Arun. Man's best friend enjoys its cooling waters this weather.
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Today's task: Make a replacement for the corroded side cover for the X axis and turret slide
Make one of these:
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Into one of these:
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Fairly easy, except that there is a thickened mounting for the 'way wipes' for the other half of the cover@
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So first I traced it, then extended the lines to the edge to ease cutting
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Then guillotined the easy bits, remembering to cut strips from the waste for the thickening at edge while it's still big enough to hold. The other cuts had to be with a thin angle grinder disk
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I decided to spot weld the strips to the edge but these tips need a clean up:
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A quick trip to the lathe did the job:
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I made a few test welds with some scrap of the same thickness to make sure the spot was properly welded but not too unsightly adjusting the welding time between welds:
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Then clamp it up and weld it:
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Then use the old one as a drilling and filing jig to get the holes in the right places:
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Then re-assemble with the way wipers ready to fit back on the machine:
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All went quite well really - another example of tools that don't get used for weeks on end being indispensable for some jobs. The spot welder is rarely used but does make things so easy when the need arises. Similarly the guillotine, although used a bit more, usually just gathers dust.
Last night I tried my hand at a bit of programming - up till then I've just been moving axis's and starting spindles under 'MDI'. Managed to write a diddy to position the 'C' axis (main spindle but precision rotary location) in increments of 120 degrees round the circle - simple stuff but satisfying that it works.
Currently working on the tool setting system. There is an optical tool setter - you bring the tool tip under it, and the machine automatically puts the tip offset into the tool file to compensate for differing tool lengths etc. It measures from a reference point on the turret. Seems to work except that values are in microns not millimetres to 3 decimal places. So a 1mm offset is registered as 1000.00 and not 1.000 with the result that the control errors complaining the value is too large! Hey get real mate - YOU measured it :)
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Spare relay arrived today for the Platinum Resistance Thermometer Relay box that had kept failing. It's been ok since I bent it's contacts but I've changed it anyway. £6.40 for 5 of them brand new off ebay and they're not made in China ! How do they do that?
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Re video - why not buy a cheap 2nd hand GoPro (or even a proper 250 quid new one), IIRC there are various kits, some of which will include a suction mount & a waterproof case; ideal for mounting inside the the machine to get those full HD swarfy shots.
Well Adev I've acted on your advice and ordered a GoPro 2 Outdoor Edition - so hopefully video quality might improve a tad as the camera can be inside the machine enclosure. I'm tempted to get a wifi back for it, but I suspect that would compromise the watertightness, and I'm not convinced that the signal will penetrate the few non metallic openings in the machine enclosure.
Just letting you know any of the gopro extra's come with a asortment of case's watertight and vented for audio.
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Thanks Tom. It arrived this afternoon and is on charge - not had time to play yet as I've to dig 30 metres of land drain this evening in the field
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Today's Task: get the tin work back on the 'X' axis turret slide.
So this:
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Needs covering up with this lot - anyone remember what goes where and in what order :bugeye:
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Trial offering up sorted out the conundrum, so we start with the left cheek piece:
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Followed up by the smaller boxy shaped thingy:
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Followed by the bigger boxy shaped thing:
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And finally the outer left hand cheek which was the panel I had to make - will it fit ....
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Yes it did - so it should !
Rightly or wrongly I decided to lather the entire inside of the metalwork with undiluted soluble cutting oil. My argument being that the bare metal had already shown signs of corrosion, the soluble cutting oil has corrosion inhibitors in, and it seems to cling to my other machines pretty well as the water evaporates. Also I didn't want to introduce other oils as the whole machine will be awash with soluble oil when widget production starts.
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its getting closer to widget production :beer: :bow:
Stuart
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its getting closer to widget production :beer: :bow:
Stuart
Won't we wejoice with 'whoopees' when window wonderfully weveals whizzy widgets wending wictoriously without westriction while weltering white water washes wotating whiskers within?
:beer: :D :beer: :D :beer: :D :beer: :D
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westwiction, pwease!
Cawamba, what is the wanguage coming to watewy?
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Pete
you have that rare and highly contagious condition called Wublewoo Syndrome
Stuart
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:whip: OK you lot at the back of the class room, stop mucking arround and concentrate :whip:
We have SWARF
:ddb: :ddb: This may not be the most impressive demonstration in the world, but it IS the first time this lathe has produced swarf in probably over 3 years :ddb: :ddb:
I had to cheat as the tool setting issue is currently defeating me. I wrote a diddy program to start the main spindle at 1000 rpm then used MDI to do the turning - up until now I hadn't found a way to set the spindle running other than when running a program, but I found that you can actually pop out of the program leaving the spindle running and operate the machine either under MDI or jog mode.
Anyway a highly unimpressive picture of a 1" stainless steel bar reduced to 21.14 mm and the resulting swarf:
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I have made contact with a company in the midlands that run several Traub CNC lathes and have been offered the opportunity to spend the day with them picking their brains and copying any documentation that I don't already have. Even more surprising the SWMBO has agreed (even actually suggested !) making a mini holiday in her motor caravan and dropping me off for the day - I feel quite faint :clap: Just need to arrange a farm sitter for a couple of days - any volunteers ?
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Pete
you have that rare and highly contagious condition called Wublewoo Syndrome
Stuart
Stuart,
Well, I AM Pete Wublewoo, so who'd be more likely to suffer it? :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye:
(If it's that contagious, how can it be so rare?) :) :) :) :) :) :)
:whip: OK you lot at the back of the class room, stop mucking around and concentrate :whip:
We have SWARF
:ddb: :ddb: This may not be the most impressive demonstration in the world, but it IS the first time this lathe has produced swarf in probably over 3 years :ddb: :ddb:
SNIP
Anyway a highly unimpressive picture of a 1" stainless steel bar reduced to 21.14 mm and the resulting swarf:
Awemawson,
Hooway, Hooway, wictory, wictory, we wesoundingly wejoice!
:clap: :beer: :clap: :beer: :clap: :beer:
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CONGRATULATIONS!!!! :thumbup:
Following this thread in complete awe, not understanding a word but recognising the grit and determination to see it through, I am full of admiration for your efforts.
I'm looking forward to seeing the beast do more than one thing at once under the voodoo magic instructions that I am sure you will be able to incant. :beer:
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I have made contact with a company in the midlands that run several Traub CNC lathes and have been offered the opportunity to spend the day with them picking their brains and copying any documentation that I don't already have. Even more surprising the SWMBO has agreed (even actually suggested !) making a mini holiday in her motor caravan and dropping me off for the day - I feel quite faint :clap: Just need to arrange a farm sitter for a couple of days - any volunteers ?
awemawson
Congratulations on having made the first swarf with the machine. Hopefully it will be all downhill from here. Getting the opportunity to spend the day with the machines, operator and documentation should help you imensley. :ddb:
I would offer to farm sit but they haven't finished building the bridge over the pond as yet. :lol: :lol:
Cheers :beer:
Don
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No Bridge Don - dig a tunnel :lol: (watch out for the mid Atlantic Ridge )
Farm sitter sorted, date set for two weeks time, so hopefully onwards and upwards.
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Excellent! Congratulations!!!! :thumbup: :clap: :clap:
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:bugeye: Inside The Belly of The Beast :bugeye:
Been experimenting putting a 'GoPro' video Camera inside the machine enclosure - really just mucking about trying to make sure it's in a relatively safe place and still get a reasonable shot:
(How do I embed a Youtube link? - cutting and pasting from the youtube embed link doesn't seem to work)
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:bugeye: Inside The Belly of The Beast :bugeye:
Been experimenting putting a 'GoPro' video Camera inside the machine enclosure - really just mucking about trying to make sure it's in a relatively safe place and still get a reasonable shot:
www.youtube.com/embed/cW5xb9LVlE8
(How do I embed a Youtube link? - cutting and pasting from the youtube embed link doesn't seem to work)
Andrew,
Simples: Press the YouTube Button and paste the video url between the inner pair of square brackets. (Right click on video and click on "Copy Video URL".)
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
I'm amazed that you couldn't suss that one out considering all the far more complex problems you've shown you can solve. :thumbup: :thumbup:
:beer:
Phil.
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Well it's still not working for me :(
"Press the YouTube button" - which button where ?
"Inner pair of square brackets" - which square brackets where?
From the source video on my youtube page I can by right clicking :
'Copy Video URL' which gives me:
[ Invalid YouTube link ]
or
'Copy embed code' which gives me:
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
No Youtube buttons or square brackets in sight !!!!
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:bugeye: Inside The Belly of The Beast :bugeye:
(How do I embed a Youtube link? - cutting and pasting from the youtube embed link doesn't seem to work)
awemawson
This is how you initially had it
www.youtube.com/embed/cW5xb9LVlE8
This is what you need to make it work
[youtube]cW5xb9LVlE8[/youtube]
There are other methods but this one allways seems to work for me. it is those 11 characters between the square brackets that you have to find. Hope this helps. :D
Cheers :beer:
Don
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OK I've found the 'Youtube' button hiding amongst the test attributes - thanks Don and Philf.
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OK I've found the 'Youtube' button hiding amongst the test attributes - thanks Don and Philf.
Andrew,
Sorry - I should have told you where the YouTube button was. I went out just after I posted so have only just seen your reply. I didn't know you could just paste the video code between the square brackets so I've learned something myself.
I'm just about to venture into the world of a CNC lathe. Mine shouldn't present much of a problem as there's no auto tool change, only a 1/2hp spindle motor and a 3-jaw manually operated chuck to worry about. (And it will fit in the boot of my car!)
Cheers.
Phil.
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Nice to see, Andrew! :thumbup:
:beer: Steve
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Well done Andrew
Bring a beast like this from the brink is no mean feat have a drink on me
Stuart
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.....Just need to arrange a farm sitter for a couple of days - any volunteers ?
I did that couple of summers when I was very young....but I am pretty far away.
Concratulations of the swarf. You had all guards in place?
Pekka
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Thanks one and all for the encouragement.
I'm trying to work round this tool setting issue: What is supposed to happen is that you move the tool tip under the graticule of an in built microscope, press a special button, and it transfers an 'offset' value for X&Z position into the tool table for that tool. It does transfer a value, but it is scaled in microns not millimeters which results in values too large for the other bits of the program to accept by a factor of 1000. Not confirmed this but I suspect also it is not allowing for X being a diameter not a radius thus it's 2000 times too big. (Later update: no this was not the case, I was getting double offsets as I had a G55 work offset asserted)
By using the graticule, and doing the maths myself I'm getting what seem to be reasonable tool offsets but I need to do more work on it before I'm sufficiently confident to let tools anywhere close to collets and work pieces under program control.
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That would have to be a machine parameter, one presumes? Maybe your up-coming visit to Brum will help clear that one up? Or maybe even worth phoning the manufacturer, perhaps they will be able to tell you which parameter(s) to alter?
Video looks good BTW, will be intersting to see how the camera copes when it's doused in soluble oil... can't wait to see the thing making something complicated (a steel baluster perhaps...?)
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Yes Adev I'm expecting it to be a parameter - my Traub 'mole' is on holiday until Tuesday :( so hopefully progress after that. I can work round it. Been doing some tests today and proved it is simply a factor of 1000 in each axis when using the "Automatic Tool Measurer" key - every other display is correct as far as I can tell, so I'm just manually editing the entries at present and I can at least now set tools with reasonable accuracy.
It's an odd system, to call a tool the 'T' word takes the form Tmmnn where mm is the tool number (which has it's associated tool offset in X&Z from the tool table) and nn is an additional 'Tip offset' which is another table with entries for each of the 80 possible tools. So I suppose theoretically you could use the tip offset for tool 7 with tool 10 by calling T1007 but why you would want to goodness only knows. The second entry seems superfluous as surely you will always use the tip offset for the tool it was measured on.
Talking of tools, does anyone recognize the letters and numbers on this parting tool holder - I want to identify which tips it takes. It's obviously a cut down 'double ended' self retaining type and is 31mm high and 2.5mm thick the insert 'gap' is about 7mm tall:
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It's an odd system, to call a tool the 'T' word takes the form Tmmnn where mm is the tool number (which has it's associated tool offset in X&Z from the tool table) and nn is an additional 'Tip offset' which is another table with entries for each of the 80 possible tools. So I suppose theoretically you could use the tip offset for tool 7 with tool 10 by calling T1007 but why you would want to goodness only knows. The second entry seems superfluous as surely you will always use the tip offset for the tool it was measured on.
Could the second reading to be to take into account wear? Seems unlikely I'll admit, unless the lathe is capable of resharpening bits (at the expense of length) "on the job".
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I was thinking just the same. In the early 90's I worked briefly in a place that made hydraulic rams and they had a load of 'new' cnc machines. Quite new technology at the time and I do recall one of the operators explaining how the machine could increment the tool forward the tiniest amount each cut to allow for tip wear.
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Congrats on getting the beast running and not least making swarf! :clap: :bow: :nrocks:
Now i look forward to the first part produced!
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Not to pollute the other thread re en8
Will the lathe be makings replicating itself by making its own parts :D
Stuart
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It's a nice thought Stuart - by the nature of things no doubt it will be used to make bits for itself and my other machines.
Re 3 metres of 50mm EN8: no specific object in mind. I happen to have (came with lathe) a 48-50 mm 'J56' collet for the main spindle, and needed some chunky material to practice set ups and programming, particularly for the powered rotary tools. This came up locally on eBay so I grabbed it as the price was right.
I'm currently going through the tooling and tool holders, sorting out what is there, what needs fixing, and if I have the correct inserts for the tools themselves. Most driven tools are ER25 collets - I'd swear I had a set but can only find ER11, ER16, and ER32's so a purchase is in order.
The powered tools all need dis-assembly, bearings and seals checking / replacing and a general fettling. Several are partly dismantled but amazingly most of the bits seem to be there.
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Hope you get that pesky tool setting problem sorted ASAP
Stuart
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Well I can fairly easily work round it - just a case of writing down the figure it generates, deleting it and putting it back with the decimal point in the right place for each axis.
I decided that I need somewhere to store the tooling so I've started rejuvenating some Versatool cabinets - new thread here:
http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,8741.0.html
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It's an odd system, to call a tool the 'T' word takes the form Tmmnn where mm is the tool number (which has it's associated tool offset in X&Z from the tool table) and nn is an additional 'Tip offset' which is another table with entries for each of the 80 possible tools. So I suppose theoretically you could use the tip offset for tool 7 with tool 10 by calling T1007 but why you would want to goodness only knows. The second entry seems superfluous as surely you will always use the tip offset for the tool it was measured on.
Could the second reading to be to take into account wear? Seems unlikely I'll admit, unless the lathe is capable of resharpening bits (at the expense of length) "on the job".
Turns out it's more subtle than that. Re-reading what programming info I have for the umpteenth time I now realise that the second set of values is split : the first 40 (of 80) are for the first tool 'edge' and the second 40 are for the second 'edge' so something like a parting tool can be called up using either edge depending on whether the bar is in the main or opposing spindle, and still get the correct length. However is is also supposed to be used for fine corrections. So you set your tool, put the value in the 'tool table' and use the 'tip offset' to make minor adjustments as you measure the turned part. It's remarkably complicated !
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Hi there,
This question might be a bit premature.
I've watched John's (Doubleboost) latest video this afternoon, the one in which he turns an eccentric section of the component by offsetting it in the four-jaw.
Can machines like yours turn eccentrics by programming the tool to advance and retreat (radially) in phase with the main spindle rotation? :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:
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Can machines like yours turn eccentrics by programming the tool to advance and retreat (radially) in phase with the main spindle rotation? :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:
I would imagine the answer is a definite "yes", but presumably there'd be a maximum spindle speed above which the tool wouldn't be able to accurately move in/out quick enough.
I'd also be interested in the answer, I may very well need a camshaft or two cut if it does...
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They can also cut hexagons.
No idea if Andrews can but this is a machine doing it.
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Well the model certainly can do fancy things like that - there is a special firmware package called 'Traub Polyform' that can be incorporated. I don't yet know if it is in my set up. It's called up by special G & M codes. Reading about it it looks quite possible, as it is used when the main spindle has a 'C' axis - ie can be accurately rotated and stopped round the circle, and mine certainly has that feature. Time will tell . . . . . .
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Just some photos I've sent to Traub to hopefully prompt a response to the tool setting issue:
#425 - The parameter page that gives the co-ordinates of the setting 'scope (#15 tlml-)
#426 - View through the 'scope on tool #10
#428 - The Tool Table with automatically measured value on the bottom line, and my edited (div by 1000) value actually in the tool #10 position in the table
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They can also cut hexagons.
No idea if Andrews can but this is a machine doing it.
I can do that on my old Lang ! turn hexagons that is, they're not meant to be its just that there's so much play and backlash that my round jobs feel like hexagons !
Mike
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They can also cut hexagons.
No idea if Andrews can but this is a machine doing it.
Thank you John,
That's absolutely astounding! We've come a long way from the bodgers' pole lathe!
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Great work Andrew!
The tip offset number after the tool number means you can use the same tool with two different offsets ie. a boring bar can be made to cut slightly deeper by using another offset but still retaining the original length offset in the tool table for reference.
John
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Thanks John. Those photos sent to Traub did prod them into action and I got a response but they are stumped as to the cause. They got me to re-format the memory which made not a jot of a difference. No big issue - I can live with moving a decimal point three places left !
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Is it a firmware vs software version problem? Or a peripheral version recognition problem?
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Well Traub have no idea about the x1000 issue!
Today's 'downer' is that the servo amplifier for the X&Z axis is playing up again. For the last few weeks it has been fine unless powered off for more than about 10 hours - if after say 8 hours I powered it up again only for 5 minutes it was ok for another 8 hours. It would give an 'error 16' - which is reporting that the a to d converter isn't happy at power up. If I powered off & on it was then ok.
My first thought was the battery back up, but new battery fitted and the old one measures ok anyway. I then swapped all the logic from the V axis and X&Y axis amps (which includes the A to D converter) and the fault stayed with the power side (which is where the previous fault lay)
However in the recent hot weather yesterday it gave an 'error 32' which is an over current error. I couldn't clear it even dousing the amp with freezer spray. First thing this morning it came on ok as if nothing had happened, but went again shortly afterwards. So today, as several capacitors were faulty last time I have dismantled it, and made a note of every capacitor value and ordered up enough if necessary to swap out every one except the main reservoir capacitor (2000uF at 350v DC) which I can only find at a silly price (£81 !) which is too physically big anyway. Measuring it it is showing well over 2000 uF so it's probably ok anyway, but realistically is the most stressed one in the unit.
So 29 capacitors to change, but it's an odd fault. Not convinced this'll cure it :(
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Does that big cap have a bleed resistor? What is its condition -- also the solder lands in that vicinity -- possible cracks?
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Yes - a bleed resistor and a tell tale led to warn you not to kill yourself!
It and all the major power components are bolted to the pcb. Looking at the 'block diagram' which is all I have, there are current sensing low value resistors in two of the three three phase legs, and a third sensing resistor in series with the output from the three phase bridge rectifier where it feeds the 'H Bridge' power fet 'lump' (one big integrated block that looks mega expensive - after all it handles 100 amps peak at 300 volts or so)
As the first error message I was getting was concerning the a/d converter not being happy at power on, and the latest one is 'over current' then it's probably something around current sensing. The actual a/d has been eliminated as I swapped logic pcbs with the other axis amp, as has genuine over current, as I've disconnected the relevant motor and it still complains.
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I was just wondering why 8 hours vs 10 hours etc. made a difference. For something that specific it sounds like some kind of (inadvertent) timing circuit, which might be traced to the area of one of the bigger caps. Since you mentioned a suspicion of a 2000 ufd cap, and a bleed resistor makes it a sort of timing circuit, i wondered if there was a bad connection or a bad resistor. Heat often disrupts an intermittent due to a cracked solder joint or other weak connection, and since heat also seemed to play a part I thought maybe it was the resistors connection point as being somewhat suspect.
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Yes it is very strange. Almost as though a capacitor, if it still held charge, prevented the fault, but if it had discharged the fault showed up. This of course militates against curing it by replacing capacitors!
Although hopefully the (large) box of capacitors should arrive tomorrow, I'm probably going to have to leave it until the end of next week before I can attack it. Family 'do' starting tomorrow with 60 relatives descending on us Fri / Sat / Sun. Clear up the mess Monday and off to spend a couple of days in the midlands on Tuesday so I can pick the brains of the bloke with a clutch of Traub lathes - so not back till Thursday evening :(
You never know it might have fixed itself by then :lol:
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What if an electrolytic capacitor had a short that appeared when the plates had been absolutely fully discharged, but the short tended to heal momentarily (if the rest of the charging circuit momentarily allowed it) when the cap was again charged -- and remained when even very slightly charged, for say 8 hours max. after shutdown. But this ability degraded until the charging circuit could no longer support charging the cap, reporting over current?
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Yes a possible scenario. I'll have to contain my impatience until the back end of next week before I can delve into it. I did at least yesterday print out and fix suitable cable labels - the masking tape I'd temporarily used last time was getting tatty and illegible. There are a lot of screw terminals close together in an awkward low down position and to make an error would be very easy.
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All the myriad of house guests seem to be sleeping in this morning so I crept off to the workshop :ddb:
The cooling system has been a bit of an unknown - a big lump called a Schroff RHB 3000 bolted on to the end of the cabinet, taking in warm air from the top, and blowing it out cooled at the bottom of the cabinet. Certainly lots of air flow but I wasn't convinced it was actually cooling. I had thought that the whole thing was a factory sealed item, but yesterday when showing a nephew the lathe I realised that in fact it had a totally enclosing cover that could be removed. Hence creeping away this morning to investigate.
Taking the cover off let me gain access to a termination box that among other bits houses a contactor - contactor not pulled in, cooling compressor not running! Jamming contactor armature over into the 'made' state with a screwdriver the compressor starts up, and air coming in at the top at 25C is now exiting at 14C !
The problem can only be either one of the thermostats, possibly the contactor coil, or one of the various trip devices in series with the coil, but daren't start investigating now or my absence will be noticed!
This may account for the failed X&Z axis servo as it is first in line for the cool air.
Anyway - a few pictures
a/Over View with cover removed
b/Close up of control box
c/Circuit diagram thoughtfully provided by Schroff and glued to lid of control box!
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Was there anything on the machine that actually worked as intended? It seems that every part has (had) a fault of some kind.
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I think it is just an accumulation of issues that people have worked round rather than fixed. In the case of the chiller unit it probably failed years ago and no one was sufficiently switched on to notice - in most climates it probably wouldn't matter. Being rather anal I am checking and double checking everything, so probably teasing out things that had gone unnoticed. For instance I asked the previous owner if he had had the x1000 issue with the Automatic Toolsetting - he said he had never used it - yet it is the most useful facility saving loads of time !!!!!
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Some people like jigsaw puzzles. But you only get a picture out of that. Or a Rubix cube, where the satisfaction after solving amounts to finally lining up some colors.
Figuring out what a list of brief misleading phrases refer to will be the personal reward for the crossword puzzle fan.
Then of course you could spend your time making an industrial size, quality and value, precision piece of computerized manufacturing machinery work as once intended.
Not appealing to many. But, nice that it is for someone. With the capability.
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You are right Steve - it's the journey I enjoy, not necessarily the end product. A bit like the question 'why do you climb mountains' Ans : 'cos they're there !
Anyway: :ddb: Chiller issue now resolved :ddb:
It was high resistance contacts on the thermostat. A bit of contact cleaner and tweaked the trip point up and down a few times and it's back working. It has probably sat for years with open contacts awaiting that hot spell to close and start the compressor, and when it did the contacts had oxidised. Must have been quite a build up as the coil it switches is 415v, so a good wetting voltage you'd think.
Now as the cabinet doors are still off it is trying to chill the entire workshop, and drying the air, producing a stream of condensate from its run off pipe such that I've had to put a bucket under it. Long term I'll plumb it outside, and duct the hot exhaust air outside as well (perhaps with a diverter flap to inside for the winter!)
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What I want to know is - how did you convince a stranger to let you wander around his workshop for two days distracting his operators and drinking all his tea? :D
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No convincing needed - he invited me. I'd been told by a machine tool dealer that he had the Traubs and I rang him to ask for help.
We've arrived in the area (staying here tonight) and I'm writing this sitting in the wife's motor home overlooking the River Nene watching the Geese billing and cooing.
One of those odd coincidences happened today. We drove past this chaps factory to see where it is on the way up. Turns out the very next door unit is occupied by a company run by a fellow I've never met but corresponded with in newsgroups for many years. John S will know him - Peter Forbes. So I'll call in tomorrow and pay him a visit.
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Yes another odd coincidence is that I have to belt down to Northants tomorrow, NN6 area, to pick a wood burning stove up.
With all these thunderstorms the temp has dropped from high 34 to low 32, can't be having with all this cold weather.
For all those that like a bit of steam punk.
(http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/stove.JPG)
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That's nice, John ... :thumbup:
All we need now is a piccy or two of you in your Marigolds sloshing Zebo on it ... :D
Dave BC
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SNIP
and I'm writing this sitting in the wife's motor home overlooking the River Nene watching the Geese billing and cooing.
SNIP
Would that be anywhere near the Billing Aquadrome by any chance? :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye:
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Indeed so close I can hear the jet skis in the distance!
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:offtopic:
As I remember it, in those parts the name of the river is pronounced 'nenn', whereas downstream nearer to Peterborough, I understand it's pronounced 'neen'.
In a past age, I had family in Cogenhoe (pronounced 'cookno'!). :palm:
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One of those odd coincidences happened today. We drove past this chaps factory to see where it is on the way up. Turns out the very next door unit is occupied by a company run by a fellow I've never met but corresponded with in newsgroups for many years. John S will know him - Peter Forbes. So I'll call in tomorrow and pay him a visit.
Coincidences abound... I've met Peter a couple of times; once to pick up a Lister engine & one to drop off some old Austin A40 bits... I've never seen his factory though...
If perchance you see this in time, please say Hello to him from me.
Cheers,
Ade.
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AdeV, yes I met him. Turns out that the chap I was visiting is Peters landlord! Unfortunately I wasn't able to concentrate much talking to him - suddenly got excruciating groin pains. 999 call and an ambulance later it seems that I have a hernia :( Upside is after they attended within 45 minutes everything went back in place and normality returned. Quelle relief !
The other bonus was that John S was in the area, and he, and my wife and I ended up having a nice meal together at a pub recommended by the ambulance crew !!!!
I came back clutching several Traub manuals (borrowed for copying) and these splendid laser cut labels curtsy of Mr John Stevenson.
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Yikes!! Scary. But glad you're okay!
Those must be some heavy manuals.....
Labels look great.
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Hi there, AWEMawson,
Sorry to hear of your distraction (putting it mildly!) and I hope that there's no recurrence. Does this mean that you're headed for a spell in the bandage factory?
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Thanks chaps for the concern. Yes referred to the surgeon this afternoon and awaiting a date for the green dressed highly paid craft knife wavers! But let's face it it's a run of the mill bit of butchery these days :scratch:
Hopefully , now I'm back from my jaunt I can get to grips with the X servo driver and fix the over current problem. I also need to finish off those Versatool cabinets - the paint should have cured nicely by now.
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:ddb: :ddb: :ddb: Well things they are a happening :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
Firstly: I scored TWO of the axis servo drives on ebay in the US - they are the slightly lower powered version used on the V axis, but the vast majority of them is the same as the higher power one that I have the problem with, including the pcb that I'm 90% sure is the problem - at least it gives me ample spare parts to go at !
Secondly: The chap who I got the machine from has decided to dispose of the original bar feeder that came with the machine when it was delivered in 1993. This is a magazine type that can accommodate a rack of 1 metre long bars, and under program control shove them up the spout to produce widgets en masse. Collection arranged for Tuesday :D :D
Thirdly: The Versatool cabinets are finished and I can see my floor again having stashed all the tooling away. I even wired in a fixed 3 phase 415v 32 amp supply to let me dispose of the trailing cable I've used up until now - can almost move around the shop without falling over !
Now the issue is that the barfeeder needs 75" from the chuck end of the lathe, and I only have 34" in my workshop !!!!!! So it looks like the machine (all 4 and a bit tons) needs to move further into the shop, as do all the machines further up the shop. Any beefy volunteers with toetectors?
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Any beefy volunteers with toetectors?
Why ? are you wanting it kicked into place ? ;-)
Mike
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No I just hate damaging my volunteer force with flattened toes :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Guess you'll be needin' a jack er two, some crib wood n' some rollers.
er put a new window in.....
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Awemawson ,
after reaing about your adventure here, I realize that you would not give up for anyhting,
and your engineering skills are fantastic ..........
Absolutely amasing work, congratulation on the results ...........
Karl
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Surely true, and congrats Andrew on the servo drive and bar feeder scores, and the cabinet and cable completion and stowage. Coolness level is increasing!
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Hi there, Andrew,
I'm following this project with AWE!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:
It seems you might need to put down enough tarmac in the car park for two or three charabancs. :D :D :D
How much would you want for the ice cream concession? :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
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Thanks chaps for the encouragement. I did semi seriously consider a 6 foot extension forwards of the machine, but it involves moving a 4 metre wide roller shutter and creating a new framework for it, and the the complications of roofing and insulation. I suspect that I will probably just content myself with getting the bar feeder fettled up and working, and (with the roller shutter open) wheel it into place for occasional testing, rather than have it as a permanent fixture.
But there again . . . . . . . . :ddb:
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Mount the bar feeder in the back of an old van or trailer that you can wheel into position.
If you can't find a crappy old van or trailer then there must be some Disco's in your neck of the woods ?
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Problem with that is it could fall off the back while moving it. Rare occurrence, I grant, but it does happen.
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Sore point Steve. That is literally what happened to my Bridgeport Interact :(
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Not if it's bolted to the back of the Chelsea Tractor. :lol:
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I was just kidding you a little Andrew.....kinda thing that doesn't happen twice!
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So I managed to liberate the Sameco Multisam MUZ12.65 Bar Feeder from it's previous owner and drag it home. As the small Chipturn CNC lathe didn't get collected until the following day, the bar feeder had to stay out on the loading dock tarped up over night:
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Hopefully all these panels are the right ones - I grabbed what I could from the tip the chap calls his workshop
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As you can tell the chap really looked after it well, keeping it spotlessly clean :lol:
Air regulators smashed, cables hanging off, how do these people earn a living when they treat their machines like this :bang: :bang: :bang:
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This bar feeder uses a PLC controller, however the fellow 'neglected' to tell me that the power supply had gone away for repair and not returned. I have however traced the place it is and negotiations are afoot to recover it. If I never get it back it's not the end of the world as it's only a single rail 24vDC supply with physically several outputs, and the main transformer for it is still in the machine. It only needs a terminal block, bridge rectifier and capacitor.
An identical PLC flitted past me on ebay last night, and as no one else was bidding it seemed only right to give it a home :)
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Anyway it has now been moved into my 'dirty workshop' where the welding and grinding happens. This will be its temporary home until I decide if it is going on the lathe or just being fixed then stored.
Looking at the last picture - is this the only Shaper in the world fitted with a bar feeder :ddb:
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A bit of progress today: I've identified the tin work as all being the correct stuff - mighty puzzled at first as some was too large, until I realised that the fellow I got it from had adjusted the height to suit his new Mori Seiki lathe which had a spindle 60mm lower than mine! It screws up and down on jacks inside the framework.
Turns out the plonker had seen the bar feeder had a 20 pin industrial socket the same as his new lathe. Put them together,but didn't bother to check the pinout, which was different, blew out the psu on the bar feeder and caused £3K of damage to the Mori :(
Anyway - progress: A nice man in Germany has emailed me some technical info on the unit: Not exactly the same physical layout in the electrical tray, but seems to be the same actual circuitry:
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Some people should not be allowed within 100 miles of equipment
see a socket plug it in and boom :zap: then you read the manual :doh:
Stuart
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Yes, but it was 20 pins on both. Call that just a coincidence? What are the chances they'd be different?
:D
ps. Maybe he did read the manual and it said "Plug the 20 pin female connector into the 20 pin male connector."
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So where to start? Well as usual I'll do a psychological clean up! I find that it helps to sort out in my mind what is what, and what is where. and there's nothing more horrible than poking around inside a grimy machine fault finding.
I started by taking off the slanted top frame that the stock bars roll on to give me better access, then went at what I could reach with WD40 spray and a rag. Can't use my favoured 'washing soda' here as the electrics are all exposed.
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But what to do with this sticky mess ?
Seems that the various air spool valves discharge their air here and the air supply must be pretty contaminated with oil.
That pair of red wires lead to what might be an indicator, or might be a push button - it's so covered in crud it's impossible to tell, but it was just floating unloved on the 'shelf' that the spool valves occupy, and yes the other end of the red wires are attached in the electrical area!
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In the end I decided it needed a good soaking, so I've dowsed it in a liberal coating of WD40 to soften up over night, and I'll attack it tomorrow.
Meanwhile to get better access to the electrics and that mess I took off the rear and side panels
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A bit OT but a thought to ponder on
when I was maintaining a number of Croning shell moulding machines ( plus the there 750kw induction furnaces ) a problem was found in the internal wiring the germans used RED for the earth returns inside the machines , as you can imagine that caused a lot of bonce scratching .
mind you this was in the late 1960's I do hope things have improved now a days
the moral don't trust the wiring colour , I would sooner have them all the same colour then there is no confusion
that machine is just disgusting inside I know things need to be oiled up but yuck, no wonder you had a lot of bad contacts in the main machine if thats the standard of the maintenance by its past owner
keep up the good work I am confident you will arrive at your destination if good fettle
Stuart
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Thanks for the CAVEAT and thanks for the encouragement Stuart. They seem to have stuck to Green/Yellow on this machine for the CPC, and mainly blue for the inter unit wiring.
There are four runs of 30x60 'closed slot' slotted trunking used in the electrical tray, most of which is missing it's capping. The surviving capping is of a rather unusual curved shape in white. I'd like to replace the missing ones but I don't recognize the pattern - not one I've come across before - so if anyone recognizes the manufacturer I'd appreciate the wink!
If it was 'open slot' I'd wriggle it out and replace with the more conventional grey square edged stuff, but as the slots are 'closed' it would be a major undertaking.
So I reckon tomorrow is back on with the rubber gloves and more cleaning . . . .
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If it was 'open slot' I'd wriggle it out and replace with the more conventional grey square edged stuff, but as the slots are 'closed' it would be a major undertaking.
So I reckon tomorrow is back on with the rubber gloves and more cleaning . . . .
Jesus H Christ with a Bridgeport.
Do I have to teach you EVERYTHING Mawson ?
Get the secateurs and turn the closed slots into open, unthread and fit new trunking
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Not quite so easy in a confined space your Johnness :thumbup:
However I've done an experiment with a short length of 20 mm thick walled plastic conduit and a heat gun, and 'ironed it flat' - it flattens to pretty well exactly the correct width leaving a 2mm gap due to rebound, and slicing out one side with an angle grinder with a 1 mm disk makes a perfectly presentable imitation of the original capping :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
Whether I can do a 750 mm length remains to be seen
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So I donned the marigolds and got down to some serious cleaning in the electrical tray this morning.
Firstly I tried the technique on a small 'bodge board' that is attached to the PLC:
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OK that seemed to work :)
The 'method' was liberal application of methylated spirits with a paint brush, accompanied by vigerous scrubbing with the brush, and drying off with a compressed air line. Seems to work so lets attack the rest of the electrical tray:
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OK that seemed to work :)
The 'method' was liberal application of methylated spirits with a paint brush,
Jeesh ! what a waste of good drinking meths ! :drool:
Mike
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A fair amount of pushing rags under wires was needed to get the base properly clean - it's still not perfect but a major improvement.
Now to attack the air shelf. Seems to contain an air manifold and air pressure switch, but its all so badly clagged up its hard to tell.
Same technique produced this:
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Well I reckon that was a success ! Can now tell what appeared to be just pipe terminations on the spool valves are actually sintered bronze exhaust noise suppressors. Also there are LABELS :wave:
I might even be able to find my way around all this plumbing if things are labelled :lol:
So what next: Well lets see if we can make up some replacement capping for the stuff missing from the electrical tray:
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:ddb: Yes that seemed to work - we're on a roll :ddb:
There was no way I could keep 750mm of the plastic conduit hot enough all along its full length to successfully squash it, So I thought I'd try just squeezing it cold in the vice a bit at a time. I expected it to crack - but no it went quite well. Curved like a banana, but straightened up ok by hand after I'd cut out the necessary strip from the back with the angle grinder.
Now need to leave it to completely dry off as meths contains quite a bit of water. Also need to make up the 24v DC supply to go in that empty place next to the transformer.
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I spent a little time last night identifying the thirteen wires left disconnected from where the Power Supply is missing. The two red ones are obvious as they emanate from the 21v o/p of the transformer having passed through a fuse. Two more are obvious as they connect to the 0v and 24v inputs to the PLC. Another two are obvious as they connect to the 0v and 24v of all the inductive proximity sensors.
That leaves a further seven wire unaccounted for. Oddly each one goes to the driven side of a relay coil, and also to the relevant PLC output that is driving it. I can only assume that the original power supply must have incorporated a snubber diode for each of the relay drives. If this is the case then the various air solenoid coils which are also driven by the PLC outputs don't have snubbers!
Anyway as the fellow with the original psu isn't answering emails I thought I'd make one anyway. I bent up a little chassis, picked up the existing holes that mounted the original one, mounted the bridge rectifier and reservoir capacitor, and put a 'din rail' on to take din terminals. Although I have some 4mm ones already they are a bit bulky, so I have some 2.5mm ones on order that hopefully will come tomorrow.
Have a few pictures:
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The 2.5 mm DIN terminals arrived today, so I've assembled the replacement power supply. A little bit of 'solder sculpture' to wire up the seven clamping diodes for the seven relays, but all went to plan. I only had to extend one of the original wires to fit my version of the power supply, and this was only as I wanted the clamping diodes to appear in the same sequence as they are physically laid out in the chassis. (It makes thing so much easier later on in years to come when things fail!)
Once the power supply was installed I disconnected the 230v AC feed to the transformer, and powered it up from a local mains feed. All checked out OK. The PLC seems to be running its program, and responds as I, for instance, bring a lump of metal up to the various proximity sensors. Can't test it in earnest until I've disabled the various interlocks that would have come from the lathe.
The air plumbing is (slightly) curious. Basically there are two double acting cylinders. One raises and lowers the alloy extrusion that holds the current bar that is being fed. The other advances or retracts the pusher 'lance' that feeds the bar into the lathe. The 'oddity' is that there are three air pipes coming out of the back where the regulators and filters were before the vendor vandalised them. I 'think' that the air enters a filter, regulator, oiler unit, and goes to a pair of spool valves controlling the bar advance / retract. And that a feed is taken from the retract side, via a second regulator, to feed a second pair of spool valves that operate the 'Up/Down' of the extrusion. This would make sense in that it effectively prevents the extrusion moving unless the pusher is fully retracted. There is also a pressure switch on the retract feed telling the PLC that there is or isn't pressure on that side.
Anyway that is the way I'm plumbing it up for testing, though I've had to order another regulator / filter / oiler unit - I had a brand new one but it's a massive 3/4" BSP size whereas all the stuff originally seems to have been 1/4" BSP
Hopefully when that is all fitted I can start testing in earnest.
Have some holiday snaps:
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After an enforced delay due to being invaded by hoards of grand children over the last two weeks at last a bit of progress. Firstly a very nice man emailed me a pneumatic diagram for the bar loader, which shows my initial concept was wrong. Turns out that the third regulator exhausts to atmosphere as an 'over pressure' safety device in case the machine pushes back!
This has allowed me to plumb up the pneumatics
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Having overcome the 'Emergency Stop' link that originally would have come from the lathe I was able to try things out. Turns out that the 'shoe' that pushes the bar runs in an extrusion, and some kind fellow over the years has given it a whack, closing up the channel that the shoe runs in at the far end of its travel. The result was that it jammed and was useless!
I experimented tapping a suitably sized (2" x 0.25") flat steel bar down the extrusion and sure enough could open it enough for the shoe to slide freely, but it would spring back when the bar was removed. Solution: leave a bit of the bar in there, strategically placed so it opens up the channel but doesn't foul the shoe - jobs a good 'un!
Now I can manually operate the machine to pick up a bar in the channel, go through the motions of pushing it into the feeder tube in the lathe spindle, then advance the 'pusher' to feed stock through an opened chuck or collet up to a bar stop.
Whether I'll ever use it is highly debatable :lol:
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One thing I did manage to get done during the onslaught by grandchildren, was to put the lathe cabinet doors back on. This had a rather amusing (in retrospect) knock on result.
I was sitting at the pc with the lathe on in the back ground, and suddenly the noise level went down dramatically. My first thought was something like a servo amp had failed and tripped a breaker. Heart in mouth moment !
Turns out, now the doors are back on the chiller unit is only cooling the cabinet and not the whole of my workshop, and had turned off as it's thermostat said it was cool enough. ...phew !!!!!!
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I came across a rather nice 'Foundry Bench' on ebay a couple of weeks ago made by Emir out of solid beech. I already have an identical one and know how well made they are. Turned out no one else was interested and I won it for a snip. Seller is a hobbyist machine dealer I've known for over 30 years. What's this got to do with a CNC lathe you may ask. Patience - all will be revealed :ddb:
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So I went up to collect it recently with the big Ifor Williams trailer. Looking at his racks of Myford and Colchester chucks and already having a Kitagawa B206 hydraulic chuck on my wants list I posed the question, knowing that this sort of item is way off where he would usually be dealing. No never heard of 'em came the response but we do have this rather nice unusual chuck showing me a box.
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Turns out it is interchangeable with the Kitagawa one I had in mind, was available for a silly price AND came with a large box of top jaws.
All seem to be brand new unused and the chuck is in its original box. I came back a happy bunny.
Now I need to obtain a converter flange from an A6 spindle nose to an A5 chuck. Basically a disk with the appropriate holes in but rather accurately made and balanced.
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That's nice!
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Thanks Pete - it is isn't it !
Today's job: put the bar feeder back together. Simple cleaning and refitting job, sorting out a few stripped threads and here you go - one finished bar feeder. I think I will probably mothball it rather than use it.
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Back to the main lathe after the diversion of the bar feeder!
Today's task: find out why I cannot unclamp the hydraulic collet chuck under program control. Firstly manually there is a two station foot pedal (clamp / unclamp) and some buttons on the control panel to point this at the main or opposite spindles. All works well and does what it should. The pedals are ultimately digital inputs routed via interlocking relays. The hydraulic valves are driven by more relays driven by digital outputs. There is also feedback confirming clamped and unclamped states.
Now by program there are two simple 'M codes' M10 clamps the spindle, M11 unclamps the spindle (or rather didn't !) Much of the relay logic and digital input and outputs are common to both manual and program operation. My main suspects were the five relays involved in the interlocking chain, and sure enough two had rather high contact resistances. Out they came, dismantled contacts cleaned, bench tested and returned to the machine. No change :)
The other three relays are plug in jobs so it was simple to swap them around and eliminate them. Issue hinges on one digital output not being driven, BUT this same digital output is used when manually opening the collet and works :bang: :bang:
It HAS to be a software issue. Quick email to my mole at Traub points me to an obscure 'PLC logical switch' page of set ups on the controller with one clearly labelled 'Enable M11 always' :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:
Turns out the M11 function is disabled if you have a bar feeder attached . . . . argh
Anyway logical toggle switch duly clicked on the screen and off we go both M10 'close collet' and M11 'open collet' now do what you'd expect. Ah well I can think of worse ways of spending a Bank Holiday
Needed the M11 function as I have ordered a 'bar puller', which is a three fingered claw that sits in a station in the tool turret, and grasps the end of the bar. You then open the collet (M11) move the tool station away from the headstock as far as you need to make the next widget, then close the collet (M10) and pull the claw off the bar.
Have a picture of a bar puller:
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well done it always pays to RFM but often the info is well hidden in the dark recesses of the setups
Stuart
good day to spend a BH
yes we have had a good day today on the BH 26 Aug 46 years wed :D
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Good to see you back on the lathe, Andrew. Looking forward to your first production run of widgets! :beer:
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Stuart, sadly this is not documented. Traub keep these things very close to their chest - it's like getting blood from a stone. I'm absolutely sure that they have internal documentation that would have helped hugely over this resurrection, but they only seem to want to respond to specific points :)
Congrats on the wedding anniversary - we're coming up to 40 this December
Steve, good to see you back - good holiday?
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thanks for the Congrats as with you Lathe keep at it and hang in there for the long term
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Steve, good to see you back - good holiday?
Yes sir. Went in a boat in an underground lake in a cavern, good friends, etc. fun for 7 year old daughter. 38 hours of driving for me :loco:. Good to be back, too, though.
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So to fit that rather nice chuck, I need a flange to convert from its 140 mm recess to "Din55026 A6" which is what the main spindle of the machine is.
Options were a/ Make one from scratch b/ Buy an A6 backplate and machine it to fit or C/ Buy the correct one from Schunk
To get the precision necessary I drew back from a scratch built one, and the only A6 backplates I could source were cast iron not steel, and the supplier couldn't quote their maximum speed.
So I went (the expensive) option C and got one sent from Schunk in Germany - duly delivered by UPS this luchtime
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Phew - it fits the chuck at least ! Just as well as it cost me somewhat more than the brand new chuck and about 15 sets of brand new jaws :bugeye:
Now the next issue is that power chuck use a pulling motion on the hollow hydraulic cylinder that operates them, whereas the collet chuck currently fitted uses a pushing motion. :bang:
No problem - there is a reversing valve on the hydraulic manifold specifically for this situation. Ah - a drawback - that also reverses the direction of the 'opposing spindle' hydraulic cylinder. :bang:
Quick bit of nagging to my Traub mole reveals that there is another valve on the opposing spindle to reverse the direction back to original - well I think that's what he's saying - sent me reams of info and a broken English explanation (inifinately better than my smattering of German)
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well done
I think this machine is going to have to shift some metal to repay for its outlay not to mention time involved in getting it this far
got you hernia sorted out mate had one done by keyhole method took no time at all to get back on his feet
Stuart
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Thanks Stuart - well it's never going to pay for itself - other than in my satisfaction :thumbup:
Hernia op booked for 19th Sept - they say no driving for six weeks which is a bit of a pain. It also means that the wife is going to have to collect the rams where we have them off site, and take some lambs to the abattoir so that's going to prove 'interesting' :clap:
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:offtopic:
I will send the derby tup to help out if you need it :D
hope the flock is not texels when I first saw one of those by gad i thought it was a donkey :D
My uncle had a small farm were i used to help out Jersey herd for milking ( by hand in those days the farm did not have electric ) he also had a jersey bull he was as all of them are a killer black in colour and black by nature , we had to tie him to the tractor to get him out of his loose box , I can still smell the TVO fumes now :Doh:
don't forget to take a diamond hone in with you on the 19th to make sure he/she has touched up the knives
Stuart
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At least they didn't say no moving machinery around, so the weeks without driving could be a blessing in disguise! :)
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Well chaps thanks for the thoughts - - - I think . . . . :thumbup:
The main ram is a Hampshire Down called Harold - he has a habit of charging at me whenever he sees me with a bucket ! Considering he was a 'sock lamb' (ie brought in as an orphan to milk a ewe that lost her lamb) and I remember carrying him on my lap on the way home, he's grown to be a fearsome beast. Produces very fine meat lambs when crossed with my Kents (otherwise known as Romney Marsh sheep)
I seem to remember that his rear end featured in one of the pictures of that large pile of earth!
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you mean the gate bender :D
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...oh Yes :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye:
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Hernia op booked for 19th Sept -
Typical Mawson OTT.
When I said dropped a bollock I didn't mean literally..........................
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:ddb: :ddb: Well I've been very naughty and indulged myself. :ddb: :ddb:
A fellow in the USA has been advertising a full set of static and powered tooling that had originally been purchased brand new many years ago to kit out a Traub lathe for a particular task. The lathe proved to be a pile of poop and went back to the dealer, and this chap got left with $30K cost of tooling. The ebay advert kept popping up at irregular intervals and the kit didn't sell at his starting price, so I put in a VERY silly offer having worked out that there's 80 lbs of tooling to move across the pond which carries a fair price tag! ($240 is lowest quote I've had) .
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: Anyway amazingly my silly offer has been accepted :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
The swivel angle powered tool is particularly attractive and I shudder to think what it would cost now new
(Pictures are from the ebay advert)
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Looks like those widgets are going to be getting a bit more complex .... :thumbup:
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Hi there, Andrew,
I hope that your visit to the bandage factory goes well - I'll be thinking of you next Thursday while I'm in the dentist's chair having a tooth out! :bugeye: :bugeye: :bugeye:
Your EDM machine doesn't work on teeth by any chance, does it? Still, I expect the green fluorescent fluid doesn't taste very nice!! :doh: :doh: :doh:
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he-he !
Good luck at the dentist and thanks for the good wishes. I've just been mooching around the workshop planning what I can get away with doing whilst I'm on light duties. I've dug out my rotary broach holder and am working out how to make an easy set up to produce the tools as I can see it being pressed into service on the Traub making square and hex recesses.
Each tool is cut from an 8mm round hss blank, and has the desired shape ground in with a 1 degree 30 minute taper relief back from the cutting edge, and a concave ground in the end to give the edge. As I plan to grind them on the J&S 540 surface grinder, the normal dividing head is too large for the table. I'm thinking of making pivoting 'sine table' that a spin indexer can bolt onto, that can be raised with a custom packing strip to give the 1.5 degree tilt for broaches, and lowered to zero tilt for milling copper electrodes for the EDM machine on the Bridgeport. Simple pair of plates pivoted between a hinge made of lugs. Need to work out how much 'daylight' I have to play with on the J&S 540 to see if it's feasible
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Andrew
nice catch on the tool holders
good luck with your visit to see those very nice nurses ( do they still wear those starched aprons and black stockings ) :D
Pete you have my sympathy with the tooth pullers just had two root cannel ones done both in wisdom teeth there 1/2 hour visit each , would not mind but she is only about five foot tall dusky maiden spent most of the time looking into her eyes
Stuart
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I've decided that the lighting in the machining enclosure is not up to snuff, so am upgrading it, but as the solution is possibly applicable to other machines I've started another thread here:
http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,9062.msg99297.html#msg99297
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Hi there, Andrew,
Should you be here today?? I thought today was your date at the bandage factory!!
My tooth was duly pulled this afternoon - a friend had said 'Your appointment is 2:00 PM, half an hour later it will be 2:30' (tooth hurty, get it?! :doh: :doh: :doh: ).
The anaesthetic hasn't fully worn off yet. I've requested the catering department to schedule only meals that can be eaten through a straw for a few days. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Pete, hope that the tooth is ok when the drugs wear off :thumbup:
Yes I was very lucky today. I was booked in for 8 am and usually you hang around in pre-med as they work through their operation list, and drag you in when they've hosed down after the previous carcass has been shifted to the morgue. This time I was the ONLY one on the surgeons list so things were pretty fast. I did tell him it was probably because his fees are too high and he needs to respond to market conditions :clap: Then the anesthetist tells me he's had several hernia operations and has to keep coming back - just what you want to hear as the knife is poised :bugeye:
Still, end result is back home by 2pm sitting by a log fire and posting the 'light' thread, which I'm sure that you realise was actually made and photographed a few days ago :ddb:
But all this is :offtopic: Nowt worse than old blokes grumbling about the bits that are falling off :lol:
Got great plans for the lathe when I'm allowed back in the workshop. The Bar Puller (That sounds like a prostitute!) turned up at last the other day so my first thing is to try a simple 'multi component' run - something like a thick washer. Drill, part off, bar pull and repeat to get used to it.
Can't do much heavy stuff on the lathe as the coolant isn't yet filled, but my 20 litre drum of Castrol Hysol Excel arrived yesterday ready for it. At 7% it will take the full 20 litres. Got to clean and disinfect the swarf conveyor tank first. Normally you'd dump some anti bacterial cleaner like "Castrol Techniclean MTC 43" in the sump and run the machine for 24 hours before discarding the old coolant and filling anew.
However the sump is empty! ( Emptyish - got the usual tramp oil sticky gunge which will be fun to clean.) What I'm planning to do is shove the"Castrol Techniclean MTC 43" in the coolant for my Beaver Parts Master which could do with a coolant change, run that for a while, pump the coolant into the lathe, add more MTC 43, then run the lathe coolant pumps to circulate everything, as although it will be far from full, I won't be machining anything at the time.
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Andrew
Glad to hear that you kept the surgeon in line and made it home in one piece with no parts missing. :lol: :lol:
Now will be the time for some rest and relaxation. Also an excellent time to do some research on your machines and scour the net for missing parts and manuals etc. In general, take the time to let it heal properly. You don't want to go through this again. :D :D
Cheers :beer:
Don
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Andrew
Glad to hear that you kept the surgeon in line and made it home in one piece with no parts missing. :lol: :lol:
Thanks for the good wishes Don.
Yes I told the surgeon as I went in that the wrist band they'd fixed to me said 'Gender - Male' and I wanted it the same way when I came out. :lol: :lol:
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Glad you're okay, Andrew. :beer:
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A bit of progress. I've turned up a sleeve to allow me to fit the Bar Puller to the Tool Turret, and have been cautiously experimenting with the programming. If you look back a few posts you will see a picture of the Bar Puller, which is a little three legged spring loaded gizmo.
I've written a diddy program that selects the puller, locks the collet chuck, engages the end of the bar, unlocks the collet, pulls the bar out 10 mm then locks the collet. (I then actually push it back in to save wasting bar stock). Then it selects the parting tool and parts off (deliberately missing the bar !)
I've uploaded a pair of videos to Youtube. This first one has the camera inside the machine viewing from the tailstock and perhaps it isn't the best viewpoint.
Then this second one is shot through the safely guard and perhaps shows what's going on a bit better
It's all a bit nerve-wracking as one tiny slip and it would be very easy to wipe out the fingers of the puller. I think that I had better remove them and try and scan them at a fairly high resolution so I can potentially re-create them by laser cutting or possibly my Wire EDM machine in the event of an accident. Any suggestions for their replication would be welcome.
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I think I should perhaps point out that I cannot do any serious machining yet, as the machine hasn't had it's coolant tank filled. And I'm not going to fill the coolant up until I get the special 'liquid grease' that the Sauter Tool Turret has to be packed with - currently it is un-lubricated.
But the special grease is on back order - another 4-6 weeks :bang:
Molykote Longterm 00 Fluid Grease is what is specified, and no one seems to be able to come up with stock or an equivelent.
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Looks like you're getting the hang of it though, and what a piece of kit!
If you want long-life soluble coolant, I cannot recommend this stuff enough: http://www.lubetechshop.co.uk/product_info.php?cPath=25_51&products_id=249
I've had it in the sump of the Interact since I turned it on, mumbleteen months ago, and other than regular top-ups due to the fact the Bridgeport seems to have more holes in it that a sieve, and it's never gone weird or smelly on me.
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Thanks Ade, yes I remember you mentioning it. I already have the coolant - it's 'Castrol Hysol Excel' which I have in my other machines - I bought another 20 litre drum of it when MSC had it on special offer. At 7% dilution it will take the entire 20 litres :bugeye:
I'm going to pump the old coolant from my Partsmaster along with a biocide, and use that to clean out the Traub by running it with the coolant circulating for a few hours. Then pump out and replace the fluid in both machines with new.
I've been experimenting with a 'Tramp Oil' remover - a belt dipping into the tank, and as it revolves the tramp oil tends to stick to it. As the belt comes 'over the top' a scraper removes the oil which then drips into a can. Seems to work quite well. I'll see if I can get the camera near it to do a video.
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Liquid grease eh? What will they think of next? Solid oil maybe! :)
If when you get it, it smells a lot like bacon, Andrew, I'd start asking some questions!
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I've uploaded a video of the Tramp Oil skimmer working:
Here I'm removing the tramp oil from the Beaver Partsmaster CNC milling machine, before transferring the coolant to the Traub lathe to use it to clear out the lathe tank before putting new coolant in both machines.
Tramp Oil is mainly 'way lube' that is pressure fed to all sliding ways on the machine and is a 'total loss' system - so the oil finds it's way by gravity to the sump, where it floats on the soluble oil coolant. This is a 'bad thing' as it excludes air so unless the machine is in constant use stirring it up, it promotes anaerobic bacteria growth, bad smells and acidic coolant that becomes corrosive.
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Waiting patiently for more pictures and info :worthless:
Hope you getting better Awemawson
Fred
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Fred thanks for the kind thoughts - yes I feel absolutely fine, just not allowed to do anything serious for another 3-4 weeks :)
I've been gathering together what I need for the coolant wash out system that I'm adding so that I can hose things down inside. I've sourced the pump, the contactor to control it, the cut out to protect it, the panel switch and indicator to start it. This morning the 105 mm Starrett hole cutter arrived and I've cut out dummy pump flanges in 3mm plastic on my Beaver Partsmaster to check that the pump will fit where I intend to put it as it's a bit tight. Spent far far too long trying to remember how to set tool offsets on the Partsmaster as it's sat idle for too long and my grey cells are dying, but I've got the hang of it now.
The control switch will go under the console so that it is convenient to use, but this means that the wiring passes through the rather exposed and oily hydraulic section. I've bent up a little 3"x 6" x 2" box to surround them so I can bring conduit or possibly SY armored wiring with a gland, but I'm not happy how the box has come out.
Currently contemplating cutting some suitable sheet half way through with a centre drill on the CNC mill to get sharper bends.
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I had planned just to weld up the corners of this box, and I may still do that, but as I have the Partsmaster currently set up with a 'spoil board' for cutting sheet held down by sticky tape I may experiment engraving deep lines for folding using a centre drill. However it's a bit of a bind as two of the bends are on the under side so it means location pins I suppose
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So I thought - stop pratting about and drill the hole now that you've got the hole saw.
Decided to check that I'd be able to get my hands onto the bolts holding the flange, so removed the access cover. Argh :bang: :bang: :bang: Where I had intended to mount the pump is a separate compartment and doesn't seem to communicate with the coolant reservoir.
NEVER ASSUME
So I either need to open up holes into that compartment and hope that it is coolant proof underneath, or find somewhere else for the pump. There is I think, room round the back but it's less convenient for plumbing and wiring.
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OK an action plan. Drill a hole in the top that will fall within the pump shaft opening, and tentatively fill or partially fill the chamber with coolant and see how much ends up on the floor! If none then trepan a large hole in the side to join the tanks
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Well that's the end of that brilliant plan :bugeye:
Drilled a 20 mm hole, put in a few pints of coolant, mopped a few pints of coolant off the floor then bunged the hole up with a blind grommet. Time to seek plan B.
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Well that's the end of that brilliant plan :bugeye:
Drilled a 20 mm hole, put in a few pints of coolant, mopped a few pints of coolant off the floor then bunged the hole up with a blind grommet. Time to seek plan B.
Andrew,
To quote one of my old bosses:
The only man who never makes a mistake is the man who never does anything!
:beer:
Phil.
(Hope you don't need a plan C!)
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Well plan B is to put it in an external housing
(yes I know, John S you did offer me a pump in an external housing but it was only 1/8 HP!)
The chap who I got the pump from took a housing off to reduce the carriage cost - well it's on the way to me now :ddb:
It's not ideal as it's something else to trip over but it should solve the problem.
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Plan B was rejected on aesthetic grounds :clap:
With a bit of jiggling and wriggling I reckoned I could get the third pump round the back of the machine next to the other two coolant pumps - it would be a squash but better than having a lump sticking out at the front 'like a carbuncle on the face of an old friend' to quote a well known person.
Best to do a mock up before cutting holes !
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So yes, they JUST fit, with very limited clearance on the sloping panel to the right - but hey - they're in, albeit balanced on bits of flat iron!
The two original pumps will need moving 50 mm left, their mounting plate shortening, another mounting plate will need to be made for the third pump, and there is a filter in the tank that will need a bit of re-jigging.
Oh, and the new pump, and the middle pump will need careful alignment or their outputs will not be accessible. Simples really :clap:
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Next to cut the 100 mm hole for the new plate. Due to the width and length of the plate I could only get two clamps on it. Then I attacked it with a big scary cutter :bugeye:
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Due to the construction, the taller pump has to stand on a pedestal or would be too deep in the tank, so this means it has to be fixed to it's mounting plate along with the second pump as a sub- assembly then lowered into the tank
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However pump no 3 has to go in first or you can't get at it's bolts!
At this point I started attacking the filter, which would have fouled pump no 3
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Basically it had to be somewhat wider to clear the pump body, yet still stop swarf entering that area. A classic 'cut & shut' exercise with an angle grinder and a spot welder!
Then at last the whole assembly could be put together. As you can see the new pump just clears everything :ddb:
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As the original pumps moved left 50 mm one of the braided pipes no longer reached :bang: so had to be re-made, but trivial really.
"All" that remains now to do to this bit of the project, is mount the controls, wire them and the motor up, and plumb it to the hand held wash down nozzle.
My intention is to wire it so that the pump can only run if a/ the switch for it is on, and b/ the doors are open as that is the only time it will be used.
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:ddb: It's been a long time in the coming, but at last we have a working coolant system. :ddb:
Firstly I needed to wire up and plumb in the manual wash down pump. The wiring went very well, I was actually able to pull a multicore 'SY' cable through the existing ducts from the control panel all the way to where I've mounted the 'motor protector' and the contactor that drives the new pump.
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I had a stroke of luck wiring up the motor protector, which is on the far right hand end of a row of them. Turns out that the three contacts for the three phases are distributed using a busbar. They obviously had standard length busbars using two in this row, one of which would have been too long originally, so they overlapped it on two devices. All I had to do was remove it and 'single overlap' the busbar and the three phases were connected - result :clap:
When it came to the plug and socket leading from the machine to the pump, there was already an existing cut out in the machine chassis that was blanked off. However the size of the cut out was suitable for a ten way Harting industrial connector which I couldn't source at a sensible price. I could get a 6 way as a 'Han-Kit' comprising plug / socket / inserts / covers / clamps - the whole shebang for the price of just a 10 way insert :bugeye:
So .... reduce the hole. Not too hard really as the width was the same just the height was out by 13 mm - so I milled out a little adaptor ...
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So now there are two plugs in that row that could be put in the wrong sockets. The extreme left hand one is for the motor for the swarf conveyor, and of course the new pump. They are both 415v 3 phase motors, so as long as I used compatible pin outs at least things wouldn't go bang if someone made an error!
Checking the swarf conveyor connector it turns out that pins 1&2 are intended for a thermal trip, which isn't present in my conveyor, so just had a link across them. It's as well I didn't just use pins 1,2, &3 for the three phases :bugeye:
So I copied the swarf conveyors connections using 3,4 &5 for the phases, and assembled the plug such that if it was put in the swarf conveyor socket the cable would point upwards. hopefully this will stop someone connecting it wrong in the future, as there is no other way of personalising the socket so it cannot be used by the wrong plug :(
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I also installed a tramp oil skimmer - just managed to squeeze it under the rising part of the swarf convayer where hopefully it'll be out of the way and not get knocked. Although I cleaned the tanks as far as I could, there was still a lot of tramp oil that I couldn't reach.
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I've uploaded a video of the coolant system working, and mostly going in the right places.
I had bought a 'venturi mixer' to fill the coolant. A gizmo that fits on top of the 20 litre drum of concentrate, which it draws up using a venturi in the line from a tap. It incorporates a setting valve so that the correct ratio is mixed.
All sounds a very good theory, and with 320 litres to mix for this machine seemed a good idea. Total waste of time, and it's going back to MSC on Monday as not fit for purpose. Even at it's maximum setting the highest concentration I could get it up to was just under 5% measuring with my refractometer so I'm confident of the readings. I need at least 7% and really aiming for 8%.
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I'm not familiar with the plugs you describe, but how about cutting off one of the unused pins and blocking up the corresponding hole. You would have to modify both plugs on different pins but even one would prevent getting them crossed over.
Russell
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Yes Russell I'd thought of removing a socket and putting a customised peg in the corresponding plug, but the way it's wired all that will happen if someone gets it wrong is that the swarf conveyor will start instead of the pump, and vice versa. I also considered paining each plug/socket combination a different colour, but where do you stop !
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My idea was that if you cut off pin 1 on plug A and blocked hole 1 on socket A (eg by putting in the cut off pin) , then plug B couldn't be inserted as it would still have pin 1 and there'd be no hole for it to go in. If you did the same to pin 2 and hole 2 on plug B and socket B then plug A couldn't go in socket B. It'd be physically impossible to insert the plugs the wrong way around.
Russell
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Cool, coolant! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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I had bought a 'venturi mixer' to fill the coolant. A gizmo that fits on top of the 20 litre drum of concentrate, which it draws up using a venturi in the line from a tap. It incorporates a setting valve so that the correct ratio is mixed.
All sounds a very good theory, and with 320 litres to mix for this machine seemed a good idea.
Eh? What's wrong with pouring the entire barrel of concentrate into the coolant tank, then adding the 300 (?) litres of water via a hosepipe (and, if you really must be accurate, via some barrels to measure).
Once you've filled one 20ltr barrel with water (say, the now empty coolant concentrate barrel), you now know how long it takes to supply 20ltrs of water. So multiply up for the remaining 280, sit back & have a cuppa!
Let the coolant pump do the hard work of mixing the stuff....
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Adev that's definitely not recommended in large quantities. At the very least you need to pour the concentrate into a flowing stream of water / coolant or it will tend to float and add to your tramp oil problems by hiding in non turbulent areas. Remember that the reservoir is the base of the swarf conveyor, so there is no large accessible tank to mix into, only the upper surface of the conveyor belt. The bulk is inaccessible and below.
Now if I had had a 45 gallon drum to hand I could have mixed it in that as you suggest, but I didn't ! It is quite important to get the concentration reasonably accurate, firstly so that you know you have the right mix for your tooling and rustproofing, but also so that you can monitor it over time and know what's happening. Industrial production practice would be to measure the refractive index and acidity daily and trend it on a graph, but I'm not going that far!
Anyway MSC have done the decent thing and refunded me.
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OK, in that case.... fill with water, turn on swarf conveyor to get good sploshing motion going, add concentrate?
Understood about the concentration - interestingly the stuff I use reckons anything from 5-10% is good, I usualy mix it 2ltrs oil to approx 23 ltrs water ( a convenient barrel full).
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5% is usually good for grinding and that's what's in my surface and also my cylindrical grinder. As you go up in the cutting forces you need a higher concentration all the way up to 10 or 11% for heavy machining stainless steel or HT steels in the hard state.
Incidentally the swarf conveyor goes at a slow crawl, so not much stirring there !
I've been experimenting with the various canned cycles in the control - amazingly sophisticated - today's play has been around the 'roughing cycle'. You can define a finished contour on your part that is the shape your final pass with your finishing tool makes, then call up a 'roughing cycle' that makes multiple passes getting closer and closer until your finishing allowance is left.
Two slight detours on the way. Firstly it seems that although 'absolute positioning' moves in X refer to the part diameter, 'relative positioning' refers to radius :bang: so:
G01 X25.00 put the tool on 25mm diameter or actually X=12.5
whereas
G01 X0
G01 U25.00 puts the tool on 50mm diameter or actually X=50 (U being the way relative X moves are defined)
Confusing until you know, and it's nowhere in the book of words that I can find :coffee:
Second detour involved the tool setting microscope. It has specific co-ordinates stored in the control so that tool offsets can be calculated from its known position. Well they were slightly wrong so I couldn't achieve correct diameter work, until a bit of head scratching and adjustment of the pre-set location :scratch:
Next onto the threading cycles for a bit of fun :clap:
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Slowly slowly catchee monkey
getting there , guess you are up to full working condition now with all this posting when you should be resting
Stuart
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I'm glad to see you onto details most of which escape me!
The end in sight, what's next!
Regards, Matthew
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Thanks chaps for the support - should be signed off (or is it back on?) in a couple of weeks - hooray I can drive again.
Anyway back on topic. :ddb: I cut my first thread today :ddb:
It may only be simple but it took a long time coming :clap:
This is the first 'real' operation sequence since I got the lathe running. First I cut the profile of the thread, which is 20 mm o/d by 25 mm long with 45 degree lead in and lead out, cut from 25 mm mild steel stock. Then I cut the thread itself, which is 1.75 mm pitch using a 'partial' thread form insert as that was the only one I had on a tool holder! Then profiling was an exercise in "G96" roughing cycle following a defined profile. Then the thread was a "G76 thread chasing cycle"
Made my head spin understanding all the parameters but we seem to have got there!
Only slight down side is that I've had a few 'trip outs' on the axis drives - no real rhyme or reason and so far they've always reset, but there's something lurking there still :(
Anyway on a more positive note have some pictures, and a video will follow as soon as it's uploaded
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that looks a fine thread ( I mean a well curt thread ) was it on spec ?
better get down to chasing those pesky bugs , but I fear that you may well have a few more to sort the more you use the beast
Stuart
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Those moments when it all works, those moments are special...................
Regards, Matthew
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Here's the video of the screw cutting. The 'roughing' and 'finishing' tools are in fact the same tool as the roughing tool I had mounted fouled on the 45 degree chamfer nearest the headstock.
I'm using 'constant surface speed' machining so if you listen hard you can hear the spindle changing speed with the diameter of the cut.
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that looks a fine thread ( I mean a well curt thread ) was it on spec ?
better get down to chasing those pesky bugs , but I fear that you may well have a few more to sort the more you use the beast
Stuart
Stuart, well it's what I aimed for :clap: I don't think 20 mm x 1.75 can be a standard by any means. The pitch is as right as I can measure it, and the o/d is dead nuts on at 20 mm as I specified, whereas if it was being made for proper the o/d would be slightly under nominal size. Thread form is down to the insert, but looks ok in comparison to a thread gauge. I've bought a new set of metric full form inserts, but didn't want to mount them and wipe them out whilst learning :bugeye:
Andrew
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I just had to read all of this, crikey there is some work involved so far. Great read though and very interesting thanks :)
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:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Russell
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Great vid Andrew!
BTW is there a problem with the seal on the tool turret? It seemed to be leaking coolant from the back of the rotating head after it switched to the threading tool, so much that the coolant feed was only dribbling.
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Sadly yes Pete, the rotary seal is leaking. It's retainer seems to have rusted at one spot but the way to disassemble isn't immediately obvious.
The relatively little flow on the threading tool is more due to the fact it's tube has been badly squashed and is 'on the list' - it's only 6 mm steel pipe threaded standard 6 mm - the seal only leaks badly on high pressure coolant. Several of the tools have no tubes and those not used are not yet blanked off so coolant is going all over the place.
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Wooooohhooooooo! A widget!!!
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
nice lookin one, too!
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Thanks chaps - it's only simple stuff really but takes a lot of working out :thumbup:
I've been experimenting with alternatives places to mount the camera, as where it has been isn't the best angle. Problem is where it is is the best for keeping out of swarf and coolant.
This is a rather unsuccessful re-siting of the GoPro camera on the inside of the lathe cabinet door. Far better viewing angle but as I suspected too much in line for coolant splashing. I deliberately "re-cut" the thread previously videoed so that no swarf was produced - I suspect if I did a real cut the swarf would destroy the Gopro outer casing lens in short order :(
Perhaps I need to make one of those spinning disk windows that they have on Lifeboats and trawlers - and make a good supply of spare window disks. (hey can you get CDs as see through ?)
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Perhaps I need to make one of those spinning disk windows that they have on Lifeboats and trawlers - and make a good supply of spare window disks. (hey can you get CDs as see through ?)
Or speak nicely to someone who has a laser and a big stack of clear perspex.
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Well John that's a jolly good idea :thumbup:
I was thinking of you today as I stuck those laser cut labels on the machine this morning.
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When you buy blank CD's on a spindle they usually have a clear disk top and bottom for protection .
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Good point Jeff - thanks.
I've tried another approach:
Here the same machining sequence is being filmed through the window in the machine sliding door. Hand held as I had no suitable mount. Again not ideal but at least the window tends to clear - this one may be worth pursuing.
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What about mounting on the angle bracket thingy behind the chuck?
Regards
Dave
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Dave, that's the mount for the tool setting microscope - it has a door that flops down to keep swarf and coolant out of the mounting as it's only used when the lathe is not rotating. It has a nice convenient VDI30 socket which is tempting to use but I want to keep the inside un-violated !
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Yesterday I rolled my sleeves up and got down to trying to sort the intermittent axis servo drive fault I'd been having. Analysing the error reports the drive was saying that it had lost contact with the controller.
This perhaps, maybe, perchance, just could be poor connections somewhere thought I clutching at straws. I noticed that under the cooling unit there was quite a significant pool of condensate on it's drip tray. Also the inside of the cabinet was rather clammy to the touch.
I came to the conclusion that the chiller was perhaps set to come on at too low a temperature, and was blowing damp air around. Mopping up and resetting the chiller to come on at a higher temperature was the next action.
I also dismantled the various boards of the servo drive, and all the interconnection plugs and sockets to the controller, and put them back together with a tad of contact cleaner spray, ensuring everything was screwed back firmly.
So today's mission was to perform a 'soak test'. I left it cycling round the program making and re-making that poor old 20 mm screw thread for getting on for three hours. So far the fault hasn't raised it's 'orrid head above the parapet, and I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but making no assertions !
This soak testing meant I had to be there twiddling my thumbs so I got on with something else described here:
http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,9180.msg101132.html#msg101132
Andrew
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if it pokes its head up shoot it with a 12 g both barrels that should fix it
when I was working as a sparks at the iron works intermittent faults cause us more that one nightmare when is a continuous process plant thats in trouble , think pipe casting and blast furnaces , they cannot be stopped without costing a fortune , think back tho it was a lot worse at the bank 40 million in five mins downtime that mdd you sort it out
Stuart
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Tell me about it! We had computers controlling Llanwern, Port Talbot, and Ravenscraig, so 'just going off line for half an hour' wasn't going to happen !
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I once had a similar problem with drives tripping out ...it turned out to be lack of oil on the slides. The machine had been sat for a long time before I got it and the oil had solidified in the oil tank blocking the lube filter..it didnt show a low oil alarm as the oil tank was always full but no oil was getting pumped round the machine!!
John
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Well I >> MAY << have solved the "coolant splashing on the camera" syndrome :ddb:
This little beauty fell in my lap curtsy of eBay the other day
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It has a 10" spinning disk and is actually designed to give a view port into a CNC machine that is awash with coolant. I never realised 'the proper deal' existed.
All the essential bits seem to be there (still in transit so not got my sticky fingers on it). It would originally have had a fancy mounting that fixes on with a ring of 3M VHB extra sticky tape, with a large 'o'ring kept squashed by the adhesion of the tape ( I assume that the tape is thinner than the 'o' ring ) and for initial mounting is sucked on with a vacuum. All the details are here:
http://www.t2k.net/products/visiport220c.php
No doubt I can fabricate something, but my bigger issue is its thickness. The lathe door slides and there is very little clearance between the fixed panel and the sliding door. One solution is to cut a hole in the door pane so that it is practically flush, but the door pane is re-inforced glass laminate sandwich. Until I physically get it I'm not sure which way to fix it - I suppose I could replace the door glass with a thick polycarbonate and pierce that.
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Also used to be known as Kent Screens although the company seems to have folded.
Gert used to have one fitted to her trawler :clap:
I reckon you can make a simple one by breaking the blades off a computer fan and glueing a clean screen on.
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Yes that was going to be my approach until I came across this one. I reckon that you'd have to regard the fan motor as disposable as fairly quickly the water content of the coolant would see it off.
Yesterday I sorted out the bin that the "parts catcher" dumps finished parts into. It's a stainless steel open box with a perforated base to allow coolant to flow out. It was filling with coolant and seemed to have been mounted on some fibre board which was blocking the perforations. WRONG - that 'fibre board' was densely packed fine brass and steel swarf bonded into a solid chunk. Dismantling it and scraping off as much as possible I ended up sand blasting both sides of the perforated base - got the faces of the perforated sheet nice and clean but the holes mainly remained blocked. Ended up pushing a 2mm drill through almost every one and there are hundreds :bang: Anyway nice and clean now and the coolant drains away from it nicely - I'm sure my wrist will eventually recover :ddb:
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Lovely, brass swarf. Could you separate it ?
Tuesday morning started off with a ten foot length of 2 1/4" AF hex brass bar.
Thursday dinner finished up with this
(http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/brass_chippings.jpg)
By the time the tray was cleaned out and put into another bag there was 40 kg according to the scales at the local scrappy.
Don't know what it is worth, won't get paid until next week but better than a poke with a sharp stick.
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Oooh I can feel those little brass splinters from down here in Kent!
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John, sounds like that job needed to start from brass castings or forgings rather than hex bar !
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Looked at various options.
Casting, solid hex and cored bar.
Material cost per piece was £8.00 in hex. this doesn't include the scrap return.
Round was dearer as it was larger to take in the hex and cutting the hex was another operation.
Cored bar was even dearer than round solid and again more waste.
Casting was slightly dearer but the hex would have still needed a finish operation.
So the only extra operation needed in the hex was belting a 27mm hole thru and this was done in one pass, no centre operation as if the hole was off centre it got straighten up with the two stepped boring operations to follow.
Drilling was done under power by fitting the tailstock in front of the carriage and getting the carriage to push it at scary fast / mm / min.
All the OD turning was again done in one pass as the max removed was only 11mm off the diameter so max depth of cut was 5.5mm.
This was done with tipped tooling hand sharpened on a diamond wheel to zero rake and the tooling was inserted upside down and the lathe run in reverse.
This has the advantage of throwing the chips directly into the tray as opposed to over your shoulder, in your pockets, down your neck and we won't mention foreskins.
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I got fed up tripping over all the manuals that I'd accumulated during the repair of the Traub, and was about to box them up and put them on top of the machine, however realised they'd get 'orribly grimy and dusty after a few weeks. Then I thought, hang on - how much room is there INSIDE the machine.
Originally there had been document pockets on two of the doors, so there were mounting rails comprising two vertical perforated strips already in place, albeit plain untapped holes.
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A bit of careful measurement revealed room in three places for shelves deep enough to take an 'A4' folder. I wanted to avoid the end of the cabinet with the delicate axis and spindle drives so as not to restrict the airflow, and of course nothing must touch any of the control electrics.
My newly resurrected box and pan folder came into it's own - I bent up three shelves.
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The mounting rail holes were a convenient diameter for tapping 6 mm and in went the shelves
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All together worked out very well. Last picture shows that there is clearance behind them. And now I've got some desk space back :ddb:
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That's cool, and it'll save you ever having to go through all this headache again, because if one of the drives catch fire it'll burn all the manuals then you'll HAVE to scrap the machine :D
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ROTFLMAO :lol:
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....nah !!!! Most are on disk as well anyway :ddb:
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Know the feeling. We put the machine control program down/up load instructions on the control system HD. It could be a little of catch 22, without a backup hardware or paper manuals (we call it hard copy).
Pekka
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Know the feeling. We put the machine control program down/up load instructions on the control system HD. It could be a little of catch 22, without a backup hardware or paper manuals (we call it hard copy).
Pekka
No it's all duplicated on a PC in a different building, and also a PC in the same building apart from one programming manual, which I don't have the source of without scanning it's 900 pages ! However I do know where another copy is, as I copied someone else's - that's how I know it's 900 pages !
Andrew
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At last I've been able to finish a 'mini-project' that's been outstanding for months on the Traub Lathe.
There are three 3.6 v NiCd rechargeable batteries within. One backs up the RAM in the controller and is absolutely vital, as the RAM holds not only the parameters, but also various secret squirrel option flags set by Traub and not disclosed to customers. The other two are less critical, they back up the machines 'absolute position' so if they go flat the machine has to be re-referenced.
Although these batteries are brand new and good quality they will only last 5 or 6 days, so I've been running the machine for an hour each morning to keep them charged - a pain :bang:
So - what to do. Well the scheme I settled on was to arrange a trickle charge to each battery when the machine is powered off. Three phase power comes in direct to a large isolator switch however the door interlocks are powered by a 415 : 24 volt transformer directly across two phases. This got me thinking. Between Phase 1 and neutral there is 240v even when isolated pick this up, drive a battery maintainer, and arrange that it is switched off when the machine is turned on.
So how to implement? I bring the 240 single phase through a 6 amp MCB to a relay box. Relay contact is normally closed passing mains to the battery maintainer. When the machine is powered up, I pick off 24 v from it's internal supply to drive the relay, which isolates the maintainer.
So first we need to make up the relay box:
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Red light indicates mains is coming in, Green light indicates 24 v DC from the machine - so the machine must have been up and running when that photo was taken.
Now I'm about to run cables in the machine trunking that will be live when the machine isolator is OFF so I am rather paranoid about labelling this fact The mains wires have a warning every half metre along their length, and the three boxes I'm using are painted bright orange and are also clearly labelled. Don't want to fry someone in the future !
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Now I've been monitoring the nominal 3.6 v batteries when they are on charge from the machines internal charging mechanisms, and they rise to about 4.15 volts when the machine has been on a few hours.
I decided to supply power to them from a precision regulated supply set to top out at this 4.15 volts, but via an isolating diode (To stop my charger interfering with the internal machine charger) and resistor to limit the charging current. A normal silicon diode has a forward voltage drop of about 0.6 - 0.7 volts - so the supply needs to provide 4.75 to 4.85 volts. I settled on a little board sold by Rapid Electronics based on the LM317 programmable voltage regulator. I replaced it's single turn adjusting 'pot' with a 10 turn one, and scaled it to lie in my close range of voltages)
Sadly Rapid did not live up to their name, and it was the lack of this part that has held me up, despite assurances that it was in stock when ordered :(
So the physical layout of the machine dictated two further boxes. One to provide two isolated supplies for the Servo Amps and one for the main machine controller - so off we go again knocking holes in boxes:
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They of course need a bit of paint and some mounting brackets
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And off we go mounting the electronics inside the boxes
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Then comes the rather nerve racking bit :bugeye:
They need installing mechanically (dead easy !) then the batteries need disconnecting while the machine is running, and the new bit of kit connecting - any slips and the RAM gets corrupted. Amazing how you can fumble dropping 3 mm screws in such a situation :ddb:
Anyway they are in, connected and time only will show if they work ok - I'm leaving the back off so I can monitor them for the next few days anyway :med:
Andrew
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Hope you had your marigolds on messing with that live leccy.
H and S would have had a field day
Opps I forgot it's only LV :zap:
Good work as usual why did they not make it like this when they made the machine ,for firms do have shut downs.
What we used to do with boxes like that was to label them as "Isolate else where " and leave it at that makes you stop and think
Stuart
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just read this thread from start to here.
hats off to you sir, i wouldnt have known where to start. its good to see someone not giving up but persevering and overcoming the hurdles that come up.
top work :)
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Thanks Stuart, no major voltages involved, mild stuff really just horrendous data consequences if I'd fluffed it :bugeye:
Dawesy, I appreciate your kind words but I reckon you deserve a medal if you've just read it all :clap:
The battery float charge mod has had 24 hours of 'uptime' now and everything seems to be stable, so I've battened down a few hatches and will leave it a week or so before measuring again.
Andrew
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Last entries about the battery backup -- so Andrew, what have you been making in the completed lathe? :thumbup: :coffee:
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In all honesty Steve not a lot. I made up a batch of shouldered heavy duty washers, but even that was really playing. As you well know it was the journey rather than the destination that motivated me.
I still have to turn up a replacement for the ptfe sealing bush that feeds coolant to the powered tools, and one of the bearings in the motor for the powered tooling needs changing when I get time as it is rather noisy, but neither of these thing stop the machine, nor are they currently priorities. Farming type things have come to the fore with the season changing.
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Andrew, knowing you, I think it's probably time to sell that smoothly functioning masterpiece of investigative restoration, and get a REAL piece of junk.
That one was really on the small side anyway! Do I recall a video of a lathe here somewhere on the forum turning a ship's crankshaft? :poke:
:lol: :lol:
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Oi - stop it. Coming back here causing trouble :ddb:
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So just wondering what is the longest article posted on this site?
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So just wondering what is the longest article posted on this site?
Tom
Follow this link and it will give you answers to some of your questions. :D
http://madmodder.net/index.php?action=stats
This thread seems to be at the top for members that are still active. We are still waiting while Andrew decides what type of widget he is going to flood the world with. :lol: :lol:
Cheers :beer:
Don
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Sorry to revive an old thread chaps, but I'm using this as a way of recording what I've done to this machine - a sort of blog I suppose:
Some of you may recall that I managed to pick up a very nice, apparently unused, 'Hydraulic Power Chuck' complete with masses of jaws. I never fitted it as when I came to remove the collet chuck that came with the lathe, I was a bit stumped as to how it came off.
As I was just playing learning to program the machine it didn't matter, wasn't at the top of the list, and I let it be.
To refresh your memory this is the chuck with its jaws:
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Now what had stumped me was that I knew that the Collet Chuck fixed to the main spindle with four M12 bolts, and the socket caps for these bolts were covered by the collet closer front plate, itself retained by a ring of M8 socket cap bolts. I'd removed the closer, removed the collet, removed the four M12 cap heads, and could NOT budge the actual body of the collet holder.
Yesterday, I awoke to pouring rain, and decided that being a Bank Holiday I'd actually get up in a more leisurely way than normal. So there I lay, drinking my coffee and going through my list of things that needed sorting, and this conundrum came to mind. Then, in a flash of inspiration it came to me :coffee:
I'd always relaxed the collet before removing it, and on this lathe the collet is PUSHED to close onto the collet closer front plate, not pulled like a normal collet. This meant that the mechanism was in this instance PULLED backwards, as was the bit I was trying to remove (despite the power being off)
So today I had a couple of hours free as the sides of bacon I had to slice were chilling in the freezer. (Never try slicing bacon at room temperature, as it goes all over the place!)
So off to the workshop, CLOSED the collet, powered down, gingerly removed the closer plate that now was being pushed off), removed the collet and was able to unscrew the collet closer from the operating tube and remove the body of the collet
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Shortly after I had bought the chuck, I'd identified and sourced the correct adapter flange to fit it to the spindle nose, so in theory all that I have to do, is turn up and thread a draw tube adapter that takes the hydraulic draw tube at one end, and the chuck operating 'ring nut' at the other.
It involves some careful length measurement and probably won't happen for a few days
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Anyway it's progress, and I'm relieved to say that the adapter flange fits the spindle nose, which until today I hadn't actually seen :scratch:
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Nothing like going away from a puzzle for awhile in order to solve it. And mornings are the time for inspirations and solutions!
:clap: :clap: :clap: :beer:
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Thanks Steve.
Just a little bit of progress today. I managed to withdraw the co-axial hydraulic cylinder chuck operating tube from the main spindle of the lathe so that I could measure it's diameter and pitch. That well known standard 74 mm x 1.5 mm :ddb:
It unscrews from the co-axial cylinder, but to lock the spindle meant I had to have power on the machine and use it's hydraulic spindle brake. Upside was that the correct tubular spanner was in the bits that came with the machine.
I also measured the chuck operating nut that the other end of the adaptor will screw into - another nice standard at 53 mm x 1.5
So now I know that I need an adaptor with a female 74.0 x 1.5 mm thread at one and, and a male 53 mm x 1.5 at the other, with an outer diameter of no more than 78 mm. with the biggest bore I can get away with.
Just need to determine the exact length. Gets slightly complicated as the chuck needs a different length of movement to the collet chuck that I've removed, and the 'far' side of the co-axial hydraulic cylinder has a proximity switch checking the movement and determining if the chuck is locked on safely or not - so the length has to fall within fairly close limits.
My thoughts at the moment are to err on the long side of the male thread and adjust to fit.
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Nothing like a standard, everyone should have his own! :hammer: Good luck Andrew, I've been following this from the beginning!
Kjelle
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Thanks Kejelle
Today I dug deep in my pockets and ordered a length of 4" EN8 steel to make the adaptor - I did have an end of 5" mild steel that was long enough but I prefer to have a slightly better steel for this component
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Well quite a bit of progress today. That huge chunk of EN8 steel arrived, and I decided before I started hacking it about, I would make up a functioning mock up from bits from the scrap box. So that I could adjust the length 'in situ' I decided to make a separate male and female thread, both unbored save for a 12 mm threaded hole so they would screw onto 12 mm threaded studding.
This way I can adjust it and check the chuck fully closes and fully opens while still operating the proximity sensor thus keeping the TX8-F controller happy.
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I started with the male thread, dug out a bar end of mild steel and started making swarf:
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Then I attacked the female thread. Stock this time was the end of a roller scraped from a paper mill.
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The two bits then screw onto a length of 12 mm studding, allowing me to adjust their separation in a 'suck it and see' fashion
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And then putting the hydraulic draw tube, my mock up, and the chuck together we get this:
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So tomorrow I hope to assemble this lot back in the lathe spindle, which will allow me to make adjustments and trials to finalise the length of the 'proper' adapter.
But first I need to make some tubular spanners so the bits can be tweaked in place.
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me want to see tubular spanners.....
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Nothing complicated Steve - just heavy wall tube with projecting lugs.
So I started today by milling pockets in the female threaded part to match the big tubular spanner that came with the lathe
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This spanner fits 'up the spout' of the lathe and was intended to tighten the tube that couples the hollow hydraulic cylinder to the chucking device.
Next task was to fit the adapter on the spindle nose that converts the A6 nose to this particular chuck (A5) - easy task, but then I discovered that the bore through the adapter was a tad less than the spindle bore, no issue functionally except that the big tubular spanner won't go through it :bang:
But that's why we have lathes . . . . modify the spanner :ddb:
Rather a lot of over hang here - but it's very thick walled tubing - I had to reduce it by 1.5 mm diameter
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So now I could fit the actuating tube, and screw the female thread on the end, onto which I'd screwed the threaded rod and locked it in place with a locknut on each side
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Next I needed a way of turning the actuator nut in the chuck, so that I could screw it, complete with my male threaded adapter, onto the studding to make length adjustments.
A tubular spanner came with the chuck, but due to it's diameter it will only engage the nut from the mounting side of the chuck - not a lot of use in my application ! Spanner wall not thick enough to reduce so need to start afresh.
Hunting for heavy walled tube or suitable bar it then occurred to me - there is a swarf guard at the front of the nut - would it remove and let the spanner in . . . oh YES :thumbup:
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So now I'm ready to mount the chuck and try it out . . .
. . . . EXCEPT . . . I need to be sure of the hydraulics - a lot of power in that actuating cylinder. Operating force is tweakable by setting the hydraulic pressure, and I need to familiarise myself with the hydraulic manifold before I start random twiddling :scratch: :scratch:
The chuck says maximum operating force is 22 kNewtons ie 22,000 Newtons
Powering up the machine (no chuck fitted) lets me see that the current operating pressure is 30 bar, and the chart on the cabinet says this gives 4000 deca Newtons or 40,000 so presumably that pressure needs about halving.
Also I'm not sure how much tension that I can put on that 12 mm studding. It's only there to prove movement length and position, so I will turn the hydraulic pressure as low as I can for testing, then re-set it when I make the final adapter.
Have a hydraulic circuit diagram:
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Always amazed by your abilities and knowledge, Andrew :coffee:
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A bit of fiddling about and I've reduced the hydraulic pressure to 2.5 bar (from 30 bar) which I'm sure is a safe level for testing the movement of the chuck mechanism. I've also been able to reverse the direction the hydraulic cylinder operates when told to close (The original collet chuck pushes closed, this chuck pulls closed)
Now I need to sort out the other end of the spindle where the proximity feedback sensor is housed, as it needs to operate in the reverse fashion. There is an adapter disk that is the element that is sensed, and I suspect I'll end up machining another one 'top hat' shaped so the bit that is sensed is to the rear, rather than forward as it is at the moment.
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Always amazed by your abilities and knowledge, Andrew :coffee:
Stop it, you'll make me big headed :lol:
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But that's why we have lathes . . . . :ddb:
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So I put my attention on the outer end of the spindle where the proximity sensor is.
The sensor is fixed in a housing that has two functions a/ hold the sensor and b/ act as a funnel for any coolant that pases down the bore of the spindle, directing it back to the sump.
Removing the housing shows the disk that theoretically is held in by three cap head screws - no screws in the holes ! The disk seems to be a VERY tight fit over a hub, and so far it is resisting my attempts to remove it
This is what it looks like
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Now I do have a plan of a similar spindle (shown below) and it confirms that only the screws retain it, but on mine the hub on the spindle is somewhat longer, and the disk surrounds it for a depth of maybe 3/4".
So far gentle heating, tapping with a plastic mallet, and application of wooden wedges has failed to shift it. I may have to devise some form of customised slide hammer to pull it off, but duty calls. I need to have a wash and scrub up before greeting and meeting some new guests in the cottages :bugeye:
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Andrew, You are one h-l of a engineer! Most people would have given up looooong ago! And taking on something as complicated as this...
Now, regarding those cottages...I wounder if I can persuade the missus to take a week on an English farm next summer....
Kjelle :)
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You'd be very welcome:
http://tinyurl.com/Apple-Cottage
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I've been kept largely out of the workshop today - it's my birthday and apparently I have to be entertained. This morning I was taken by my eldest boy to look round 'Eastbourne Redoubt' built around 1807 as one of a series of forts to stop the French being too adventurous with their cross channel trips. Very interesting, but sadly most of the original cannons were melted down in WW2 when we were desperate for the metal to keep another foreign adventurer off our shores !
However I did manage to escape for half an hour and cobbled together a slide hammer from the jaws of a bearing puller, with a length of 12 mm studding projecting back as the slide, with a length of very heavy section cored rod as the hammer.
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So did it work - - - - - oh yes :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
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So now I need to hunt out a large bit of steel to make a replacement with a different profile so that the sensing happens in reverse to this one. I need a billet to produce a 108 mm diameter by 32 mm if you have one in your pocket :ddb:
I could turn down the original, but I will retain it with the collet closer in case I need to refit that chucking arrangement at any time in the future
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...... it's my birthday ......
Hope its a good one - making your own presents? :dremel:
cheers :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:
Dave
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Andrew
I'm still following along and quite impressed by the way you are getting that equipment into shape. :thumbup: :thumbup:
By the time you get this you will probably have finished the birthday cake. Let me just add another Happy Birthday as you start out on another journey around the sun. :D :D
Cheers :beer:
Don
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Congrats, Andrew!!
<Kjelle
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Happy birthday!
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Thanks chaps for the birthday wishes. I had my first oap concessionary ticket today at the Fort - gosh it makes me feel old :(
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... - gosh it makes me feel old :(
On the basis "use it or lose it" I don't think there's any risk of your grey matter stagnating just yet! :smart:
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Happy Birtyhday Andrew!! :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:
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HAPPY BIRTHDAY!
My aunt told me when I had my 50'th that "The life is not over, just a best part". Some people have the skill for pep talk.
Pekka
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Thanks chaps :thumbup:
So in the absence of a suitable bar end (and it would have had to be 4 1/4" diameter) I remembered that I had had some blanks flame cut some years ago to make gear wheels. Digging through them found two that if glued together might work
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I needed 31 mm of thickness and these together make 30 mm which is close enough, as I'm adjusting the position that sensing occurs with the length of my chuck adaptor.
So I started by boring them out to 10 mm undersize to reduce their bulk for the silver soldering I was planning to use to fix them together
Don't often have to fit the reversed jaws but they went in today. Then I initially drilled a 2" hole in them to save time actually boring
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The idea was to set them up like a sandwich, with a ring of silver solder and a sprinkling of flux, then heat them dull red with the oxy-acetylene torch, but first I grit blasted the mating surfaces.
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In practise, even with my largest tip on the torch it was a struggle to get up to temperature due to the large radiant losses from the disks of steel.
However I got there, and here is the built up blank compared with the sensor actuator that I removed yesterday with the slide hammer
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The silver solder seems to have flowed ok, but it'll be interesting to see just how well when I come to machine it. Next issue to resolve is how to machine the inner and outer faces truly concentric.
Current plan is to machine the inside to finished dimensions gripping it in the 3 jaw with the reversed jaws on the outer (rough flamecut) diameter, then transfer to the four jaw, indicate it in holding on the inner bore, then machine the outer diameter.
I may rough turn the flame cut surface first.
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Well I finished the new style proximity sensor thingy this afternoon. This is how it turned out, not forgetting the dustbin full of swarf !
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The braze line between the two disks in not perfect, but quite acceptable for the service this will see.
So hopefully if I can get a bit of time tomorrow I can re-fit the housing and set the proximity sensor up
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Looks good from here. :thumbup:
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Today I managed to set up the proximity sensor actuator etc and after a few tweaks got to what I think is a satisfactory result. It's a question of setting the length of my temporary adjustable adaptor such that the system acknowledges that the chuck is gripping WHEN the chuck is gripping and not loose :bugeye:
I wrote a little diddy program to repeatedly clamp the chuck, start clockwise at 100 rpm, pause for two seconds then unclamp the chuck. This just repeats so that I could observe the led on the proximity sensor and the jaws of the chuck
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Then a took a couple of short videos of both ends of the action.
In this one you have to look VERY closely to see the chuck jaw mounts actually moving (no jaws fitted yet)
And this one from the outer end of the spindle shows the movement of the co-axial hydraulic cylinder and again by looking closely you will see the led on the proximity sensor going on and off as it crosses the step in the bit I made yesterday
I'll still play about a bit more but at the moment it's looking as if I need 110 mm of that 12 mm studding protruding forwards from my temporary adaptor.
Next step is to remove the chuck and adaptor, and reassemble it on the bench with 110 mm poking forwards, allowing me to measure a definitive length for my adaptor from end to end. All this is to avoid messing up when machining that huge chunck of expensive EN8 :scratch:
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At last I got back into the workshop (had to clear half an acre of scrub that was over grown with bramble and gorse - by heck that flail came into it's own !)
Enough tests I decided - break it down and measure up what you need to make. So I removed the chuck having first carefully measured the thread protrusion. Then I re-assembled my mock up set to the same measurement, which allowed me to measure the over all length.
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So at long last I could draw up the part I need to make with a reasonable chance that it'll be the right size :ddb:
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So that big bar of EN8 was turned into an adapter and a HUGE pile of swarf
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So how did it go . . well ok except that I dropped a b@@@@k :bang:
Cutting the female thread somehow I managed to set the lathe up for 1.75 mm pitch and not the 1.5 mm that it should have been - silly error involving putting a selector lever into position '6' and not '8'.
I remember making a scratch cut to check pitch with a thread gauge, the gate alarm went off announcing a visitor, I went and dealt with them, and came back and cut the thread WITHOUT checking the pitch. I got a funny feeling about it when I'd cut about 1/3rd of the depth, checked, had a hot flush, set the pitch correctly and re-cut the thread. It actually doesn't look too bad, but I'm concerned regarding it's tensile strength - if it strips the chuck will let go of whatever it is gripping and that's not a nice thought.
So I've decided to make another one :bang:
However I continued finishing this one off, made a slight design change reducing the outer diameter from 82 mm to 79 mm which allows it to pass through the chuck converter flange, making assembly easier.
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Having reduced the diameter to 79 mm to allow it to pass through the chuck adapter flange has meant that I can get the replacement out of an 80 mm bar, whereas before I had to start with 100 mm - so the next one should make less swarf.
80 mm bar on order :thumbup:
It has at least allowed me to operate the chuck - I've increased the operating pressure to 5 bar so about 1/4 full spec, which has let me experiment with some of the bored jaws that came with the chuck.
Next thing is to set up for jaw boring, so I need to investigate clamp rings that allow the boring with the jaws under compression.
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Sorry about the mistake, Andrew. I know how that feels. :bang: :bang:
On a regular basis! :beer:
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Only myself to blame Steve!
But thanks for the sympathy
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Yesterday afternoon the new EN8 bar arrived, so today I re-made the adaptor sans cock-up, and it's installed in the lathe and works ok.
No pictures as it looks just the same as the previous one :clap:
Now perhaps I can return the operating pressure to it's set point and start seeing if it grips ok :scratch:
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We all make little mistakes from time to time, but it makes us more careful, glad you got the replacement made up, and all is well.
Cheers David
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Well it all went well until lunchtime. In the morning I bored it out to size and cut the pesky female thread that I screwed up last time .
Then I stopped for lunch, and we'd just finished at 13:15 and there was an enormous 'crump' like a muffled explosion. Penny and I looked at each other and both shot outside down the drive to the road - the farm is on the A21 trunk road, but is only single carriageway down here. Sure enough a 'curtain sider' HGV and a 'panel van' were entangled in each other, both drivers being trapped in their cabs.
I stopped to call 999 and Penny went on to tend the injured. Turns out that the panel van driver was a goner with major head injuries, and the HGV driver had a punctured lung. He should be ok having been carried off in the air ambulance to Kings College Hospital in London.
The road was still closed both ways at 19:00 when we went out for a meal with whacking great cranes trying to shift the HGV, but has now re-opened (23:00). Certainly spoilt the day for several families I'll be bound.
After that it was a bit hard to concentrate on cutting the male thread - but it's now done !
It brings it home to you what is really important in life
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That road is always having accitents I have had some close calles , they overtake in the stupitest places I worked on the Blue Boys Inn oast for a few days two accidents on the roundabout , the owner said the fights are the most entertaining .
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Today I started a job I've been putting off for far too long: The main tool turret alignment was not quite 'spot on'
The turret slides in the 'X' direction which being a slant bed lathe is steeply inclined to the horizontal. The testing consists of putting a special cylindrical tool in the turret, and going round it with a DTI mounted in the chuck, turning the chuck by hand, moving X in and out until readings are the same in the direction of the X slide to front and back. Then measuring at 90 degrees 'above' and 'below' to see that (if the cylinder lies on the axis of the main spindle) will show no deflection.
In fact it is quite a bit out as see in these pictures
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So as you can see there is quite a 'height' error. Correction is by rotating the tool mounting block relative to it's 'stopping point' to get the height reading correct, then putting in the 'X' position into parameter store to say where zero is.
Simples :clap: If only one knows how it's all fixed together. I have a right up describing the turret, but it doesn't include the large chunk onto which all the tools mount. Now the rotating tools and the turret are made by Sauter, so I emailed them asking for a drawing so that I knew what I was getting myself into.
Oh no say they - the tool mounting block is made by Traub (the maker of the lathe) Very strange - you'd think it was all from the same people :scratch: However traub managed to email me this drawing:
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So it turns out that there is a circular 'Tee Slot' in the rotating bit of the turret body, and bolts go into Tee Nuts holding it in place. Just get on with it, pull it apart, slacken those bolts, tap it into place, tighten up and bob's your uncle :thumbup:
So first we need to open up the cover plate to expose the cap head bolts - only all that turret is packed with unbelievably expensive special 'liquid grease' that took me months to be able to source. Luckily I had to buy a sizable drum so I have enough to re-pack it. Expecting it all to come pouring out (after all it's 'liquid grease') you'll spot a baking tray balanced below as I take off the cover (don't tell the wife)
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Someone has obviously been in here before me, as the sealing 'O' ring is incomplete - not just broken, it's not all there! Also there is evidence of trauma to the plate - something has whacked it pretty hard, quite likely this is what put the alignment out.
To expose the heads of all eleven (strange number!) of the retaining bolts it was necessary to remove the driven tools holders as they cross across the bolts in some places.
So at last the bolts are in view. Just need to do a comprehensive clean up, make the adjustment and put it all back together. Shouldn't be too bad from here on but family duties call and I probably can't get back to it until Sunday :(
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I hope this Traub appreciates its owner's commitment! :clap:
I'm glad the saga of rehabilitation isn't over Andrew,, and somehow I suspect you are, too...... :)
:beer:
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Hi there, Andrew,
I agree with Steve, full marks to you for stamina and tenacity. :clap: :clap: :clap:
And I do admire your ability to charm these big firms to provide you with all the technical support.
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Thanks chaps :thumbup:
After all, from the start the project was always intended to be an interesting and challenging journey rather than necessarily getting to a particular destination.
Now I'm actually using it I'm fine tweaking things and making the tooling and holders to make life easier.
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I know your widgets are to be copper,Andrew, but have not yet gleaned their function, unless I missed it somewhere back. If secret at this juncture, carry on, But otherwise, what the heck are they? :)
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No secret Steve.
Did you see my thread regarding the Stud Welder? It uses copper collets to hold the studs, and because of the huge discharge current between the collet holder and stud, they are expendable lasting maybe 100 studs before they are consumed.
I have a few in a limited number of bores, but decided to do 'a run' of 3, 4, 5, 6 & 8 mm collets as a 'production exercise'. I'm trying to make it so they are made effectively in 'one operation' involving boring and slitting the gripping end and boring and threading the adjusting end. This is just an excuse (and learning exercise) to play swapping parts from the main spindle to the opposing spindle so that the part can be worked on on both ends.
The collets are available commercially and frankly aren't very expensive, but that's not the point :lol:
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No secret Steve.
Did you see my thread regarding the Stud Welder? It uses copper collets to hold the studs, and because of the huge discharge current between the collet holder and stud, they are expendable lasting maybe 100 studs before they are consumed.
I have a few in a limited number of bores, but decided to do 'a run' of 3, 4, 5, 6 & 8 mm collets as a 'production exercise'. I'm trying to make it so they are made effectively in 'one operation' involving boring and slitting the gripping end and boring and threading the adjusting end. This is just an excuse (and learning exercise) to play swapping parts from the main spindle to the opposing spindle so that the part can be worked on on both ends.
The collets are available commercially and frankly aren't very expensive, but that's not the point :lol:
Andrew
Isn't that the point, if you can't make it for twice the price it wouldn't be any fun. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Cheers :beer:
Don
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Makes total sense to me, Andrew. :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Playing with the soft jaws I got fed up not 'quite' locating them in the right serration. They have 60 degree serrations at 1.5 mm pitch, and you'd think it dead easy to slap the three of them on and bolt them up so they all sat in the same radial position prior to boring for accuracy. Several times I'd put a set on, torque the bolts, spin the chuck and there'd be one very obviously one serration out. :bang:
Fed up with this I made a little gizzmo. Fit one jaw, set the gizzmo to it, fit the rest using the gizzmo - works a charm :ddb:
Took all of an hour to make
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Hi Andrew,
I'm glad I dropped in before Christmas, your posts have taken on new meaning knowing the context in which they're set!
Best wishes, Matthew.
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Matthew it was nice to meet you and your son. Open house, kettle's always on :beer:
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Love to drop in again, but it'll be a while before I get over again!
Regards, Matthew
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Fed up with craning my neck round trying to read DTI faces upside down and back to front, I went on a hunt through my measuring gear and came up with a long forgotten Mahr Feinpruf transducer driven high resolution measuring whatsit.
Actually this has been sitting on the shelf for a year waiting for a 'round tuit' as it's input mains fuse holder is flopping about and needs replacing, and it's resisting all attempts to get inside the box !
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So last nights 'get you to sleep' design exercise was a holder to allow me to swing the chuck mounted probe round the test piece, and this is what I came up with, and was duly made first thing this morning
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So popping it in the chuck having slackened and hand tightened the tool holder bolts it took all of ten minutes to tap the tool mounting block round on it's circular Tee slot to zero out the error, and re-torque the bolts.
I am amazed how accurately you can tap things with a plastic mallet to shift them a few microns. The indicator in this picture shows zero, where full scale either way is 3 microns, which indeed is where I got it at the four quadrant points, but that's a bit deceptive, as the ball screw backlash and indeed just leaning on things moves it a few microns.
Just need to re-pack it with grease and put it back together. The replacement O ring arrived yesterday (3 mm cord by 164 mm id), available on ebay for less than £3 delivered !
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So now that the 'tool mounting hole' centre line lies on the axis of the lathe I can tweak the machine parameters to accurately set tool offsets. The value of X in this picture (which I'm putting here so I can refer back in the future :) ) is the absolute position of the X axis to get on centre
Before all the tweaking the value was 137.832, but that difference of 0.152 mm is not all 'X' and not all 'height' as the tool mount has been rotated to zero the error
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Neat tool Andrew. With it reading so fine, do you leave any allowance for flex in the holder when turning the probe from 12 to 6 o'clock?
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Pete the holder is very stout - obviously there must be flex but frankly plus or minus 10 microns would be absolutely no issue in this situation.
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Hi there, Andrew,
I think I might be able to match that fuse holder if you need to replace it. It might take some digging to find it, though! :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:
If your fuse holder is broken send me a PM with a close-up photo. I do know I've got a few of the type with the 5/8" fine thread fixing nut (I used one of those nuts to load the quill bearings on my Tauco bench drill!) :nrocks: :nrocks: :nrocks:
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Andrew enjoyable to watch you work out every problem and improve this lathe.
The mallet adjustment reminds me of my first disappointments using a 4 jaw chuck, having plunked down good cash for it. I was used to tapping pieces on the Gingery lathe faceplate with a plastic mallet to center them. Using an indicator, you rotate the faceplate by hand, find the high spot, tap to half that reading and rotate to check. Tighten hold down bolts or whatever and go. What used to take literally seconds on the faceplate now took minutes of cranking back and forth (for me) with the 4 jaw.!
Later discovery through Doubleboost of the two chuck key method of adjusting a 4 jaw helped a lot, but sometimes I still feel that the faceplate tapping method was faster and easier for me. The only reason I didn't go back was because I wanted to train myself to use the 4 jaw quickly -- and because the faceplate on my Craftsman lathe has a big hub which blocks the most useful part of the slots. Most of the old workholding fixtures I made for the Gingery are too small for it.
Anyway, sorry to go on -- I love the fact that even on a big complex CNC machine, tapping with a mallet works well for precision adjustments sometimes!
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Hi there, Andrew,
I think I might be able to match that fuse holder if you need to replace it. It might take some digging to find it, though! :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:
If your fuse holder is broken send me a PM with a close-up photo. I do know I've got a few of the type with the 5/8" fine thread fixing nut (I used one of those nuts to load the quill bearings on my Tauco bench drill!) :nrocks: :nrocks: :nrocks:
Thanks Pete, I'll take a photo
Steve thanks for the kind words - just now trying to get my head round the various offsets that have to be set to compensate for the tool post position - the description is just a bit stark! I need to work it from first principles
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Pete,
With your encouragement I have at last fathomed out how this thing comes apart and managed to remove the broken fuse holder.
The original is a Rafi 1.04002 rated 6 amps @ 250 volts and holds a 20 mm fuse. Thread diameter is 14.75 by measurement (nominal 15?) and protrusion behind the panel cannot be much more than 30 mm including the terminals.
(It turned out that what appeared to be holding it together was actually holding an internal assembly on)
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Hi there, Andrew,
Red face here and big apologies to you!!! :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh: :doh:
I should have ensured brain was engaged before operating keyboard!!! I deserve a session of :poke: or even of :wack:
All the panel-mounting fuse holders I have are for 1¼" x ¼" fuses. You'd be welcome to have one or a few of those if only I could find them!!! I think they're in a cardboard box, in a bigger cardboard box, in a cupboard, behind lots of heavy stuff!!
I'm sorry if I've caused you to dismantle your instrument for nothing.
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Pete thanks for looking - the offer was much appreciated :thumbup:
As it was apart I grafted a slightly smaller (12.5 mm thread) holder in by sandwiching it between two suitable washers, so at least the instrument is now much safer to use and I know what's inside. It looks like it grew like Topsey, rather than being a decent paper design - definite look of a prototype inside - in fact quite a bodge, but it works splendidly. I have a slightly more modern similar instrument by a different maker, but it has the same sensor connector - I tried one in the other and amazingly they are compatible so maybe there is a standard.
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At the request of PeteW I'm posting some details of the ISOMA centring microscope that I'm using to help me set the correct tool heights on this lathe.
I've been assured that setting height using VDI30 tools is easy, as the top surface of tools is in alignment with the tip height, and the upper surface of the tool holder is on centre line. However in my experience neither of these theories is correct by quite a distance :bugeye:
Now on a manual lathe I'm antediluvian, and use the 'trap a 6" ruler 'twixt tip and work and set to vertical' - works for me, but in this machine firstly it's all inside a sealed enclosure, secondly the X axis is slanting at a steep angle, and thirdly the tool is held upside down as it is on the far side of the work from the operator :scratch:
Hence experimenting with the ISOMA, which I've had for decades but have rarely used.
I'm afraid the 'through 'scope' shots are pretty dim - but that's the way it is :clap:
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I've been experimenting with increasing the illumination - currently it's a 15 watt 6v 210 lumen microscope bulb and as you see, rather dim. I ordered a Chinese torch claiming to use a 2200 lumen CREE LED - this would not only have had a much brighter light, being battery powered it would avoid me having to unplug and reel in the cable every time the door has to be shut to make an adjustment.
However it would seem no brighter than the original lamp, so I have to assume that Chinese lumens are approximately 1/10 of standard lumens :bang:
Bit of a give away that it claims 12 watts, whereas I measure a best case of 4.9 :scratch:
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Nice scope,Andrew.
Seems the torch seller doesn't know their watts from their wotsits,or their lumens from their lanterns :palm:
Maybe a better description would've been 'as bright as one chinese lantern' :lol:
.....OZ.
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Hi there, Andrew,
My lovely but shy assistant wonders what you're doing in the workshop - shouldn't you be outside lambing?
I take it that your third and fourth photos are using the original Isoma lamp, am I right?
I suggest that you do a check with the 'scope off the lathe to see if the image is erect or inverted. Draw a target on a piece of paper and look at that, perhaps. Conventional compound microscopes give an inverted image but the Isoma has a prism to send the image to the screen - it could be erect in one axis (e.g. conventional X) and inverted in the other (conventional Y)! You need to know before you can move forward.
If you use the LED torch instead of the original bulb, will the LED light source be in the same place as the Isoma bulb was?
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Pete, we have a theoretical two to three weeks before lambing, but you never can be sure so we have an 'emergency bay' set up in the stable just in case.
Yes the dim pictures are using the "13347W" 6 volt 15 watt ba15 based T6 shaped bulb. Not yet tried the led - I'd intended to dismantle the torch and just use the cree LED so that I could get it in the same plane as the bulbs filament, but as it's no brighter there seems little point.
Seeing which way up is simple - I just rested a thin feeler gauge on the tip - then you can see which is the cutting face I'm interested in :ddb:
(I think I've rotated one of those pictures too many quadrants :bang:)
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Excellent work as usual Andrew.
Anything on this site work for you?
http://www.reflectalite.com/LEDpage.html
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Thanks for the comments and link Lee. It seems that their brightest is 220 lumens which is about the same as the existing incandescent bulb.
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http://www.amazon.com/Plusrite-3302-Halogen-Light-Lumens/dp/B002ZPGDRM
Would a halogen bulb be too hot, Andrew? They come in a variety of shapes and sizes, with and without reflectors. They feed pretty easily from any 12V power supply, including batts. You probably can still get a 9 cell Nimh pack from hobbyists sites (or probably you already have a batt supplier you like).
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I think as well as the heat Steve, the issue would be getting the filament where the current one sits, which is really very close to the glass at the top where the 'pip' is on halogens :(
I'm persuing the possibility of putting a ring of bright LEDs around the objective lens, thus eliminating losses through the prism - this was suggested on the UK-d-i-y newsgroup
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I think as well as the heat Steve, the issue would be getting the filament where the current one sits, which is really very close to the glass at the top where the 'pip' is on halogens :( ......
Andrew - could you maybe vector the light through a bundle of cheap plastic optical fibre? you could then have as physically-large a lamp as you wanted? also keeps the heat away from 'the sharp end' ?
Dave
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Now there's a cunning scheme. What limit's the brightness you can get down a fibre? Obviously length - probably the thickness, any other parameters? Does the fibre need matching to the light colour ?
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Colour matching - no worry unless you're at either extreme of the spectrum. Maybe a bit late but there are 'fibre optic Xmas trees' out there with multifarious illumination - maybe you could cannibalise one of them and just re-bundle the fibres with heatshrink - we're not worried about coherent light here!.
They're certainly available ready-made for endoscopes (at a price!) but there are even off-the-shelf adapters for the smaller Maglites (https://www.altecweb.com/home.asp?cat=SubcategoryMaglight+Fibre+Optic+Wands)
(and Deko on here has been making a clock with fibre to the dial, so he may be able to help as well).
Dave
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Hi there, Andrew,
Have you made any more progress with the Isoma 'scope?
How are you focussing it? Have you got a feel for its magnification? (The higher the magnification, the more critical the focussing.)
Please could you post a photo of just the microscope?
My Isoma 'scope has an eyepiece for viewing rather than a projection screen. The eyepiece has a focussing ring to bring the cross-hairs into focus and then the 'scope is focussed on the object by adjusting the objective-to-object distance. The problem with mine is that something's adrift in the objective, could be delamination or could be fungus in the cement between the elements of the objective, it's not yet a current project.
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Pete, a bit of progress today in that I wired up a 'batwing' 700 lumen LED to a step up inverter off a pair of Lithium Ion cells, and constant current drive at 350 mA screwed onto a block of aluminium to keep it cool. Mounted the ISOMA in the chuck of the Bridgeport and pointed it at a ruler with direct illumination from the (VERY BRIGHT) led array, and got quite a good image.
It was literally a 30 min dash into the workshop - I've been down a trench all day laying drains for a new pig pen - also shifting the bits of the inflatable Chinese Field Hospital I use as a lambing shed ready for the onslaught expected at the end of the month while the rain has stopped.
Actually a bit of a downer on the Traub - the main spindle inverter has had an intermittent issue in that occasionally it's power supply cuts out and won't come back on unless left off for a few minutes. After which it's ok for the rest of the day. I had to turn the workshop heating off the other day (emergency oil shortage for our letting cottages so I pumped the workshop supply to the cottages until it arrived) Since then the intermittant issue is now perminent :(
I've not yet been able to prove if it's intrinsically the psu itself, or it's load. Things keep taking me away from persuing it. It must be a warm up issue, but freezer spray and a heat gun haven't got me anywhere :bang: I even pulled the psu (which generates about 8 isolated outputs), left it to cool over night, then powered it up and it was fine. Reassembled it's load (the intelligence of the inverter and the drivers for the 150 amp mosfet H bridges) and it worked for weeks :bang:
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Lots of lambs on the Romney Marsh yesterday it may be sooner than you think .
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OT: Andrew will have a pretty good idea of when his flock will start lambing - you just add 145 days to the date of conception. You can't assume that the tup(s) will 'do the business' on the day when they're first let into the ewes' field, so the tups are fitted with raddle markers (a block of greasy paint on a body harness, so that the paint marker is under their abdomen) so that when a ewe is served a coloured mark is left on her rump. These are changed periodically, so you can tell, within a week or so, when a ewe ought to be lambing; and in a big flock you may stage them in groups of a hundred or two at a time, from out-fields to near-fields to lambing pens on the yard. Raddle marks are also useful as you can see which ewes aren't likely to be in lamb and can move them to leaner keep and keep all the good keep for those lambing productively. (Its a lot easier to use, and particularly change, the raddle nowadays - it used to be just a mixture of tractor grease and powder paint).
There is though Jeff, what I suspect you're seeing, variation by flocks as a result of climate or a particular farmer's practice or risk profile - early lambing can be more vulnerable to bad weather, and due to colder weather there's less good grass on the fields so more hay & other fodder required, so costs higher & returns possibly lower for early lambs - these are all weighed up when deciding when the tups will be put in with the ewes.
Dave
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You learn something new every day here! :lol: :beer:
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The move now among some sheep farmers is to put the Ram in later, and have late lambs, the argument being that 5 th November tupping, which is traditional, brings forth lambs very end of March / early April. But generally the grass has barely started growing by then (*) so there are feeding issues. Down side is that the early lambs command a better price at market. There are those that over winter their flock indoors, tup very early and have lambs ready for Christmas to get very high prices. That's silly in my book - expensive production and rather insipid meat, all you taste is the mint sauce :)
We had our Ewes scanned this year for the first time, so we known which have singles, which twins, and which are empty.
(* grass needs 8 deg C to grow)
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Most sheep farmers in the Falkland Islands leave the rams with the ewes and get early lambs and shear later in the year. A friend of mine kept the rams away and sheared early. He had to be careful where he put the sheep after shearing to protect them from the weather. His later lambs got better grass and weather therefore fewer losses.
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Andrew,
Please forgive me for an :offtopic: question:
Nick, is all the mutton/lamb produced in the Falkland Islands consumed locally or is some of it exported?
And the same question for the wool?
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Most of it is exported, I don't know where to but not to UK. Shame really, it is good quality organic meat.
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Andrew,
Please forgive me for an :offtopic: question:
Nick, is all the mutton/lamb produced in the Falkland Islands consumed locally or is some of it exported?
And the same question for the wool?
Feel free - after all it was my rambling on about the new pig pen construction that started it. Incidentally, finished off the underground drains today, also intercepted the water main to re-locate the water trough in the original pen, and make ready for the new. Then backfilled the trenches so now I'm ready for excavating for the new concrete slab. Weather permitting I want to scrape off the layer of road planings where it will go as they are a useful material and there must be in excess of 5 cu M there. Silly to waste it.
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Know this is an old topic,started reading this morning read from start to finish, Wonder what happened to the CNC did Andy keep it,what has he made on it.Certainly he deservers a Knighthood for displaying the british bulldog spirit on this difficult project-what an inspiring result-Well done Andy amazing
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Hi Trapper,
Andrew here - yes still got the Traub. Play with it occasionally but in all honesty it isn't used much. Quite a beast when in full flight :bugeye:
Al the best,
Andrew
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I missed this thread in the past so read it all through today. An amazing amount of work and knowledge. Thanks for posting it Andrew.
John.
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Hi Andrew,like l said read thro your adventure with your beast of a machine.Took a while to read from start to finish but it was like reading a good book couldnt stop once l started.I intend to read right thro again to digest things a bit more second time around.Wonder if the guy who you bought it off sacked anyone who advised him to get rid of your machine as it would never work again,or be cheaper to buy another one.It might just have wanted a new home and likes it better where it is now and its looked after hopefully you havnt retired it,Did you master the programing (Ithink you would have)Have you made any complex parts for anyone on here,if so any videos to watch.I have to say when you closed the door to start the machine it sounded great nice and smooth,l could see that lovely machine spitting the parts off with awesome accuracey.They should have an award voted on by members for their achievents in a given year and you would have got my vote,no offence to anyone else as theres a lot of really nice completed projects on here,but for sheer size and the lack of information you initially had on the machine-wow you would never get me off that thing.
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:lol: :lol: I'm open to offers for it :lol: :lol:
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Definitely. You need something bigger, Andrew. :lol:
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Now STOP IT Steve - I don't need encouragement, I need restraining :lol:
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Something, say 2 years earlier, with slightly different vintage of electronics and programming. Now that would would be something a guy could really sink his teeth into, a rare machine, and think of that feeling you get when the dead screen lights up and the spindle starts to move for the first time......is there anything better?
You're getting sleepy, sleepy, .......you know you want to sell this one Andrew....it works too well, where's the fun in that?.........you want to start a new thread here on Madmodder and a new project...........sleepy sleepy........ :med:
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Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ............................
Steve, why do your eyeballs look like big yellow spirals?
And why are they going round and round????????????????????????????????
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz .......................
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Well this project has truly gone full circle and come to a happy ending :ddb:
By one of those amazing co-incidences it has been bought by the fellow who sold me the Chipturn CNC Lathe that was the predecessor CNC lathe project to this one :med:
It's being collected by a professional equipment mover on Thursday next (22nd) and I'll post some pictures of the operation - mean while I need to clear a bit of space for their wagon to move in the farm yard.
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So what's next then ?
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So what's next then ?
Well short term it will be that 6 foot flail mower that needs loads of TLC, so in terms of the freed up space, hi-tech will be replaced by low-tec but after then I'm not entirely sure. I quite fancy making a multi-axis CNC automatic tool grinder if ever I can get my head around LinuxCNC. It probably needs at least 5 axis control if not 6 :bugeye:
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You mean one of these with a Dremel on the end. It will be LinuxCNC controlled, eventually. (maybe not my lifetime) And other than doing candy floss and making cocktails, tool and cutter grinding was the one useful thing I could come up with.
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Fun while it lasted! An interesting voyage and now, the end of an era! I'd love to see you "do" a CNC tool grinder. I feel confident that you'll get your head round EMC2, another interesting voyage for us to follow!!
All the best, Matthew.
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Well today was the day for the machine to go to it's new owner. Big lorry with Hi-Ab ordered for 11 am so Phil (new owner) turned up a bit earlier to start getting it prepared.
Firstly the Swarf Conveyor, which incorporates the coolant tank, needs pumping out. This holds 205 litres of soluble coolant, and the only practical way to pump it out is to use the 'wash down' pump I'd installed. Towards the end we had to tilt the tank to keep the pump submerged - got most out then dumped sawdust pellets in to soak up the rest so it doesn't swill about on the lorry.
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Then the Hydraulic Power Pack could be disconnected and wheeled out side leaving room to start jacking the machine onto skates an roll it out.
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So that wasn't too bad - a few moments when I did wonder if thing could go badly wrong, when one of the professional movers had his upper torso under the machine :bugeye:
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Then they had to pack it all onto the flat deck of the lorry - there was no spare space !
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So this leaves me with a few acres of space - all ready for the next project :lol:
In fact the next thing into the 'project space' will be that 6 foot heavy duty grass flail that needs a rebuild.
Slight misgivings parting with the Traub - but it has been an interesting thing to get my teeth into, and it's very satisfying to think it will now go on to have a further productive life, whereas it was destined for the scrap yard before it fell into my clutches.
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Good ending to an excellent tale. Well done Andrew on your final result, accompanied by the very clear pix, (at an appropriate resolution. :thumbup: - Sorry couldn't resist. :wave: )
Pete
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A question that has bothered me from the start. How was it that so much was wrong with it? I can't understand how it could have been used with all of the faults that you had to rectify. Was it a cascade effect that was initiated by one fault?
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Yes Norman - it was a cascade - entirely placed at the door of the previous owner who shouldn't be let loose with anything more complex than a dummy :clap:
A servo amplifier had failed, he delved in not knowing what he was doing - tried (as far a I can tell) to link out the fault bit on the interface that prevented the machine starting up, and managed to put power (probably 24v) onto one line on the back board that was common to many cards in the controller.
When i got it, the controller was out of the machine, and MANY wires were adrift - also there was evidence of several 'repair attempts' where wiring had been replaced but not done correctly. Result - machine kaput and makers agents wanting an arm and a leg to sort the mess. So it sat unused for quite a long time that resulted in intermittent relay contacts. Eventually I realised that one address line on the controller had been zapped, and 'buffer/driver' chips for that bit on several cards were blown. This was lucky as spares of those cards eluded me. (some popped up on ebay a few months back, but I don't need them now :thumbup: )
Having got it running I've performed extensive burn in / soak tests so hopefully the new owner won't have any of these issues, and he has more sense than to dable dangerously.
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Hi there, Andrew,
Congratulations on reversing entropy! I've enjoyed watching the Traub Saga and I look forward to your next project.
:offtopic: Why did I think of you when I read this news item?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3803261/That-s-one-way-work-Crafty-tradesman-turn-excavator-water-skiing-ride.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3803261/That-s-one-way-work-Crafty-tradesman-turn-excavator-water-skiing-ride.html)
A diversion for your holiday guests perhaps?
:lol: :ddb: :lol: :ddb: :lol: :ddb:
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We have TRAUB TND 300 CNC lathe (2 axis) with System TX8 controller. Computer type: FCA330HLX-VThe following problem has occurred:At start-up in the morning, the Part 2 system button on the control panel illuminated. So far, No. 1 has always been lit. For some reason, we can’t get out of No. 2. The keyboard works, but Even if I press the button, it doesn't turn it off.
Can a parameter loss be the cause? How do I turn off System 2?Is there a way to fix this error?
Error code H012 - 2 Teilsysteme angewahlt
Thank you in advance for your response
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I'm afraid that I sold my Traub several years ago and all the documentation went with it.
I always found the Traub help Desk very helpful, especially so after I sent them a bottle of Whisky following a particularly knotty problem solving session !
It's so long ago I've no longer got their contact details, but I'm sure Google will find them