MadModder

The Shop => Wood & Stuff => Topic started by: sorveltaja on September 23, 2020, 08:02:49 PM

Title: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on September 23, 2020, 08:02:49 PM
I have an old electric guitar, that has been gathering dust for years, because of its condition. It was never in particularly good shape, even when I bought it decades ago.

On the other hand, it has a quite good neck(maple and rosewood), but uneven frets are what makes it not so pleasant to play. So it is a perfect candidate to practice fretwork techniques, like leveling and crowning.

But first comes the scalloping, even though I'm not sure what the outcome will be. Although there are lots of videos about it in the Youtube, I'm going to find my way to do it.

What is the fretboard scalloping anyways? Basically it's just removing wood from the fretboard. Ordinary one:
 


And same after scalloping:

 


What has kept me from doing it in the past, is that the depth of the wood removal needs to be somewhat shallow, and consistent through the whole fretboard. That way the neck's rigidity shouldn't be weakened too much.

Some testing, by filing about 1mm from the fretboard surface:

 


Different filing jigs were already tried, this being the latest:

 


It was printed, as machining that kind of piece would require enormous amount of work. Next to the file, there is a groove for the fret, that acts as a guide, so that the frets themself don't get filed.

On the opposite side is just a flat surface, that rubs over the fretboards surface, once the file doesn't 'bite' anymore. Different sizes/forms need to be printed, as the scalloping goes on.

Of course I could use Dremel to make the wood removal faster, but it would require way too complex jigs. Besides, I don't fancy having any kind of wood dust floating around in the air.

Next thing to do, is to use the above filing jig for rest of the fretboard.


 

Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: Lew_Merrick_PE on September 23, 2020, 10:26:42 PM
At the most basic level, the position of a fret is the string length/17.835.  [In "pure harmonics," a distance of string length/18 raises the pitch one half-note.  The "17.865" value accounts for the incrrease in string tension created by fretting.]  Obviously you will have to account for the width of your fret wire in determining your "scallop" and reduce the "17.835" value to account for the added tension.  --  Lew
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on September 24, 2020, 09:51:53 PM
Lew, thanks for the info. But the fretboard itself isn't part of the note-producing process, except on fretless instruments, like violin, contrabass, and such(in form of fingerboard).

In fact, on fretted instruments like guitar, the fretboard might not be necessary at all. Gittler guitar:

(https://gittlerinstruments.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/gittler-homepage-white-bg-1024x298.jpg)

So the scalloped fretboard is one way to add a bit more freedom to the playing. It requires lighter touch, because it's easy to do unintentional 'microbends', just by pressing the string, as there is no wood close to the pressing finger, like on ordinary 'flat' fretboard. Also string bending is a lot easier, when the finger(s) don't rub against fretboard.

Project goes on. More filing:

 


Side markers are falling out, but I don't need them anyway.

Plan is to remove 0,5mm more by filing, and after that, plenty of sanding. It actually feels good to use some elbow grease, after previous electronics projects.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: Lew_Merrick_PE on September 24, 2020, 10:24:07 PM
OK, if you take a "string" and tension it over two (separated) "edges" & "plug it," it will vibrate at a given frequency based on: tensioning force, shear modulus, and plucking duration.  Shorten the "separated edges" distance by 1/18'th and, maintaining the other "variables," pluck it with the same force & duration and the "note" played by the "string" will be on half-tone higher than the previous one.  However, when you "dish our between the frets you are changing the tension within the "string."  [My original Journeyman's rating is Luthier.]  --  Lew
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on September 25, 2020, 08:00:09 PM
Yeah, there are plenty of things involved with strings, and frets.

Again, more filing. Arched scallops would look better. Instead the result is more like 'U-channels'. That is fine by me, as the filing fixtures seem to work well:

 


Bit of rounding on the areas near to the frets, which might not be necessary, but to get completely rid of that awful, glossy finish(lacquer/varnish perhaps), that the fretboard had in its previous life.

Fret markers needs to be redone, maybe using bigger, Fender-style dots. They have to be shallow, as there isn't much of wood left, and I don't like to hit the truss rod with a drill bit. But we'll see.

To go ahead of myself, if all goes well, I'm going to dye the fretboard as black as I can, and finally, apply several layers of matte lacquer to it.

Before that, after the scalloping is done, resulting fretwork dictates, if it's worth the effort.   





Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: WeldingRod on September 25, 2020, 10:13:48 PM
I've got to ask; what is the benefit of scalloping?  Ive never seen it before...

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: Lew_Merrick_PE on September 26, 2020, 11:21:11 AM
I've got to ask; what is the benefit of scalloping?  Ive never seen it before...
Scalloping makes it easier to barre.  --  Lew
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: russ57 on September 26, 2020, 06:41:05 PM
I would think the tension and hence pitch would only change if you pressed the string right down to the scalloped fretboard - which would make it harder to play.
I presume the intent is to merely press the string hard enough to ensure the fret forms the 'edge' as Lew describes. Without touching the fretboard as normal.

I also have not heard of this. Interested in the outcome.



-russ

Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on September 26, 2020, 09:40:19 PM
As far as I know, there are very few big names, who use scalloped fretboards in their guitars. Most prominent, I guess, is Yngvie Malmsteen.

I remember reading somewhere, that he scalloped his early guitar(s) back in the eighties. Later on, his signature model Fender Stratocaster became available.

Other, that I'm not quite sure about, is Richie Blackmore. He also has scalloped signature Stratocaster model available. I have seen many live recordings of him playing, but never paid attention to the fretboard, as it's kind of hard to see, unless there are super close-ups.
--

Most of the rough filing is done, so it's time for rounding the areas around the frets a bit. At this point, some of the right sides of the frets are rounded, but barely visible in the picture:
 


Instead of using printed filing fixture, a lot more simpler solution was at hand:

 


The aluminum piece is attached to the file with double-sided carpet tape. Seems to work quite well, although one has to be very careful, to not to scratch the frets.

Obviously, the 'fret betweens' that get narrower, when going though the fretboad, need again another arrangement, but fret not. If it isn't easily achieved by filing, then slowly, by sanding.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: RotarySMP on September 28, 2020, 04:44:04 AM
You are making a nice job. It will be interesting to hear your experience with the scalloped fretboard.

I have a Strat which was very heavily used by a previous owner, with long fingernails, which has some pretty deep divets in the fretboard. I considered doing something about them, but you don't even notice them when playing.
Mark
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on September 28, 2020, 07:56:42 PM
Mark, thanks. While sanding the fretboard after filing, the finest grit was 240. As this is just an experiment, trying to remove all the file marks isn't that much needed. Maybe later, if necessary.

--
Side marker holes were filled with rosewood dust and instant glue(cyanoacrylate). Then holes for the 6mm fret markers were made, by using printed jigs like this:

 


Fret markers are turned out of maple, as I already had some leftover bits at hand. They were glued with the same instant glue.

Instead of dyeing the fretboard black, as was mentioned earlier, perhaps the acetone treatment could do. Comparison:
 


I wouldn't use acetone for fretboards, that have any sort of plastic parts in them, though.

--
So, next comes the fun part: fretwork.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on September 29, 2020, 10:05:31 PM
Today the guitar was prepared for the fretwork. To start hunting the buzzing frets, capo was attached to the first fret, as the saddle has a different radius, than the fretboard(actually, in this case, frets):

 


Then lowering the bridge, as low as needed, to bring out the string buzz on different frets. So far, it's not as bad, as I expected. I like super low action, so it's crucial to get them(frets) leveled anyway.

--
First impressions of using the scalloped fretboard(no fretwork done yet): It definitely isn't everyone's cup of tea, but even at this early point, I like it.

Some pros and cons noticed(personal preference):

+ string bending fingers don't rub against the fretboard
+ makes the upper fretboard somehow more 'accessible', allowing easier, crazy bendings also

- might take some practice to get used to
- fingers could 'dig' deeper between the strings more easily, when compared to the ordinary fretboard

--
I'm going ahead of myself again, but I think the rest of the guitar is now worth of restoring, although the body seems like there were bunch of rats excavating:

 


 

 
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on September 30, 2020, 10:09:00 PM
Not much progress today, as I had to do some arrangements to free enough table space. Also I've been looking for different techniques to do the fretwork.

In the project guitar, the string buzz seems to be concentrated mostly to high E string. Perhaps the first thing to try is a 'spot' -leveling, with the strings on.

Idea for that came from Stewmac video, where Dan Erlewine uses a diamond coated spot file. Particularly I liked the part, where he showed a very early version of it, that was just a wooden stick, with small piece of file glued to it.

--
I have noticed after the scalloping, that the fret ends appear to stick out more, when playing through the fretboard, so they need to be rounded.

Another thing is, that one may not necessarily desire of having a full Yngvie Malmsteen -style scalloping, which I have done. Obviously there are a lot of other ways to make a partial, or 'milder' scalloping.     

An example of that could be the Richie Blackmore signature model, that has a 'progressive' scalloping.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on October 01, 2020, 09:46:44 PM
Spot leveling wasn't enough, so longer aluminum piece with 240 grit sandpaper was used to even out frets from 11 to 22:

 


String buzz is now gone, although, when the strings are set very low, even moderate pluck makes them buzz, no matter how much leveling is done. Simple cure for that is to raise them enough to suit one's playing style.

I'm surprised, of how different the guitar feels(in a good way) already. Next thing to do, is crowning of the sanded parts of the frets. Then rounding the ends of them.

And then, to the involved hardware.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: Lew_Merrick_PE on October 01, 2020, 10:08:28 PM
Spot leveling wasn't enough, so longer aluminum piece with 240 grit sandpaper was used to even out frets from 11 to 22:
So have you ever seen a fret file?  --  Lew
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on October 02, 2020, 08:08:37 PM
Lew, yes I have seen, but currently don't have one. Maybe at some point, as one diy-guitar, that I built in the past, needs awful lot of fret leveling(or even whole new fretboard).
More about that, perhaps, after the ongoing project is finished.

--
Frets are now crowned, and polished. For crowning, I used a triangle file, that has smoothed 'safe edges'. I have actual crowning file also, but it's way too coarse, leaving deep scratches.

But yeah, so far I've been having a good time, when making improvements to that guitar. Next thing is to find out, what kind of nut to use.

As the string posts of the tuning machines have some slack in them(need to take a look, if they could be modified, to make them firmer), I thought of putting a locking nut in, but nah, it would require fine tuners on the other end of the strings(like on Floyd Rose). Besides, it has too big footprint to fit:
 


--
I'm not a fan of ordinary nuts, that have grooves in them for the strings. Other kind, that caught my attention, is a Fender roller nut.

To test the concept, I'll order some 3mm bearing balls.

Obviously one has to remove wood from the end of the fretboard, to align the ball's centers to the 'zero fret' -point. 


Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on October 03, 2020, 07:31:42 PM
What comes to the roller nut, today some drawing, based on photos of the original one, like this:

 


What I've found out so far, by looking at the Fender's installation manual, that there is a retainer cage to keep the balls from falling out, when changing the string(s).
Black/dark parts above the balls are rubber dampers, to mute the string vibrations between the nut and tuning machines.

Somewhat confusing is, that in the manual, the balls are called as ball bearings. The way I see it, the balls should act as linear bearings, moving back and forth, when the string tension varies(by string bending, or by using a whammy bar).

--
Simplified version of the roller nut:
 


Ball pairs are aligned so, that the strings(in red) follow the fretboard's 400mm radius:
 
 

I have already printed the above model, but it'll have to wait, until the ordered 3mm bearing balls arrive.

--
Forthcoming ideas:

- to find out, what kind of mechanisms are used in the locking tuning machines, to convert ordinary ones, well - to locking tuners
- also to find out, what sort of tremolos there are, that are 'surface mounted', instead of 'through the body' -ones.
 
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: WeldingRod on October 03, 2020, 08:25:50 PM
It looks like the balls are fixed; just hard, smooth surfaces.  And cool looking ;-)

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on October 04, 2020, 09:07:25 PM
Yes, brilliant and simple concept. From what I've been reading on the net about users experiences, they are largely positive.

--
When taking a closer look, of how the locking tuning machines work, they probably have their uses, but it's just a screw through the string post, to clamp the string. Similar 'locking' action could be achieved by winding the string so, that it 'locks' itself to prevent slipping.

--
In the meantime, also the flat mounted tremolos were looked at. One, that stands out from the crowd, is the Stetsbar tremolo. It's operating principle seems to be rather simple:
 


It appears to have linear ball bearings in it, as the bridge and string retainers move back an forth. Most critical part, though, is the spring tensioning system, that returns the bridge to its exact position, after the tremolo bar is used.

The way the springs work, isn't so obvious to me at this point, even when looking at the patent pictures. Reading the details in the patent text makes me yawn, as it's always formal, instead of being informative.

But after all, that's what leaves plenty of room for experimenting.

Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on October 07, 2020, 08:13:43 PM
First test version of the roller nut:
 


It uses 3mm bearing balls. To prevent them from falling out, while fiddling, I tried different offsets, to find the press-fit tightness. To get them out again, one has to destroy the nut, though.

I haven't removed wood from the end of the fretboard yet. To be absolutely sure, that the roller nut is worth it, first I'm going to make the tuning machine's posts as 'play-free', as I can.

After that follows abusive string bending session(s). Bridge has already rollers in it, so there shouldn't be too sticky points for the strings, but we'll see.



Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on October 10, 2020, 08:55:57 PM
The roller nut was tested, and results are not as good as I expected. Strings get still out of tune after bendings. Reason for that may well be the type of strings that I use: coated ones.
The specific breed, that I use, is Elixir Polyweb, as they seem to have most durable coating.

As the sweat from my fingers is like battery acid, uncoated strings are ruined in just few days.

This type of roller nut, with bearing balls, might work a lot better with metal-to-metal contact, as with uncoated strings.

But enough of that. I think that using real rollers instead of static bearing balls could be a better bet in this case, and therefore forthcoming subject for testing.

--
Ongoing, 'tongue in cheek' -test subject is this:
 


So, it's basically a part of a tremolo, thrown together from the parts, that were at hand. Exception is the spring, that had to be made.

At first, I tried the Strat-style tremolo springs, but even six of them together hadn't enough tension, to get the strings tuned for a standard tuning.

Next I looked for online spring tension calculator, only to find out, that it produces plenty of values of different variables, that I have no idea about(http://www.elisanet.fi/kz1706/emot/1087.gif).

Numbers aside, it was again time for parking the ball in the dark.

Strat-style springs, that I have, are made of 1.4mm spring wire. To have a single spring to take care of the combined strings tension, it needed to be stout, so 3mm wire/round bar was used.

Surprisingly, with the spring on above pic, the 'sweet spot' is a lot closer. In practice, when tuning the strings, they don't go higher than G(when using 'A' tuning fork).

As it's intentionally a 'floating' system, perhaps adding an adjustment screw to pull the springs' opposite end away from the bridge to 'compensate'.

In the end, if nothing else, this is an attempt to find the pitfalls, that many of the tremolo designers must have stumbled upon.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on October 12, 2020, 10:07:31 PM
Now the (possible)tremolo design has the end adjustment, allowing it to be tuned to the standard tuning:

 


Next thing is to find out, how to attach a tremolo bar, that moves the string retainer back and forth. If it goes well, then the lumpy one is replaced with something like this:

 


Round 12mm brass bar will be used for that. Bit of machining for a change.

--
Even at this early point, that floating string retainer has already a Floyd Rose-ish(or other floating system) feel in it, which makes the string bendings/vibratos very easy. For me, at least, that alone is a jolly good thing.

--
What comes to binding, when bending the strings(especially non-wound ones(G-B-E)), it is definitely located at this roller nut. When the string goes out of tune(flat) after bending, pushing down the portion of string, that is between the nut and tuning machines, brings it back to tune.


Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on October 14, 2020, 08:52:01 PM
Strings have now a new retainer:

 


When thinking of what kind of tremolo bar mechanism could be used, probably some sort of linkage is needed anyways. To make one, that fits under the spring and retainer, it would require a whole lot of machining.

Easier way, I guess, would be to silver solder some steel/brass bits and pieces together.

--
Before entering the tremolo stuff, the nut needed to be sorted out:

 


It's using brass rollers with printed body. At first, the strings got out of tune, when bending, but finally, after plenty of string stretching/retuning, it got better.

The way the strings are currently wound around the tuning machines' posts, isn't best possible, as they get tuned and loosened dozens of times, while testing.



   
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on October 16, 2020, 09:55:37 PM
While waiting for the ordered silver solder to arrive, some fiddling with different tremolo ideas, bits and pieces:

 


 


So, using two hinges ganged together, to provide even pressure to the string retainer, could be an option. As it is in the above pictures, it doesn't work that well, as the hinges tend to press the retainer down, and detuning the strings, when the tremolo bar is released. 

Inserting a suitable thickness metal piece between the retainer and hinges makes it a bit better, without the need of retuning the strings after pressing down the tremolo bar.

Even better way would be to attach something like 'connecting rod', that converts the hinges' rotary motion to linear one.

Currently the tremolo is 'one way' only, decreasing the tension of the strings. When proper linkage mechanism is added, it should be possible to make it to act both directions.

Adding the tremolo is also an attempt to test the spring, that I made. There is nothing special about it; I used a mini butane torch to heat the 3mm wire, when winding it around the 8mm axle.
No further heat treatment. I'm not quite sure about the material, but it's harder than mild steel, maybe closer to piano wire.

I'm surprised, that it works as a spring, having enough tension to keep the strings in tune. After all, sometimes the guesstimating seems to work.

Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on October 23, 2020, 09:26:08 PM
Today some silver soldering:
 


So, the second test version of the tremolo uses two 12mm eccentrics to move the string retainer. 

First test setup, again, using bits and pieces at hand:

 


I have only one 12mm ball bearing, but when pushing the wrench, there is rather smooth movement, although the ends of the eccentric rod doesn't have too much of bearings yet.
Needless to say, perhaps, that there should be a pair of bearings, to get all the strings 'tremoloed' at the same time.

The above ball bearing is a bit too big for the purpose, as it has 28mm outer diameter.

To add linkages, or "connecting rods" between ball bearings and string retainer, this is, what I have in mind:
 


Green parts are 12x18x4 ball bearings, that I ordered. In the mean time, I might do some simulations with similar size slide bearings.

Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: philf on October 26, 2020, 06:15:22 AM
I watched an excellent TV programme on Crimson Guitars and Marshall Amps yesterday.

One of the guitars they were making had wriggly frets. I think they call them True Temperament.

Crimson do guitar making courses and have lots of YouTube How To videos.

No use to me as I'm totally inept when it comes to playing any instrument - but very interesting nonetheless.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on October 26, 2020, 09:34:00 PM
Yeah, I've seen those kinds of frets. I guess, that they are quite difficult to make, unless one has dedicated cnc-based machinery. On the other hand, I've also seen pictures of 'diy' tempered frets/fretboad, where the frets are cut in six pieces, which are then glued to the fretboard.

But in general, I think that only the ones, that have an absolute musical ear, would benefit/hear the difference, when compared to ordinary frets/fretboard. I can only imagine, of how stable the construction of the instrument should be in that case.

--
Simplified linkage:

 


And machined one:

 
g]

It's splitted half, so that it's probably easier to install/take out, without the need of removing strings from the retainer.

I tried couple things, considering the previously mentioned test using slide bearings, but nah, the eccentrics(in red) should then have a mirror finish in them. Too much hassle, so I'll wait for the 12x18x4 ball bearings to arrive instead.

Again, if all goes as expected, then some carving to make the linkages less blocky.


Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on October 27, 2020, 10:58:15 PM
Well, it's 'back to the drawing board' -time again, as there was one thing, that I had totally neglected - the spring(http://www.elisanet.fi/kz1706/emot/owl.gif).

When testing the eccentric rod, part of the spring seemed to always block it/be in the way. One way around it could be to use a 'fork' in the middle:

 


It's just a part of some kind of hinge, that has M8 thread. The fork is 3mm thick, which should be more than enough rigid for the purpose:

 


So, plan is to take 6mm axle, machine a flat surface for the sacrificial grub screws, that hold the eccentrics at the same angle, and then, silver solder them and the fork together.
After that, removing the part of the 6mm axle, that is between the fork. It should provide enough room around the spring, but we'll see.

New parts, that are waiting to be machined, with new ball bearings:
 


12mm steel axle, that I have for the eccentrics, is 0,03mm undersized, so the ball bearings have too much play, and therefore can cause rattling, and other noises.

There I was thinking:"how to expand the diameter of the surface, using simple tools, that I have?".

Answer might be to use a cheapo tube cutter:
 


I have used it in the past for brass and aluminum, and was surprised, that it can make grooves for the steel bar also.

When testing with ball bearings, yes, it seems to actually expand(displace?) tiny bit of the surface.

 
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on October 28, 2020, 07:55:14 PM
"Forky thing" soldered, after some cleaning:

 


One ugly bugger, but if the concept works, then there is lot of room to improve the appearance(but it's not that important to me). I fitted the ball bearings by using previously mentioned tube cutter, to raise the surface, then fine diamond file to make a snug fit.

One thing, that I'm not so sure about yet, is that are the 12mm eccentrics enough to provide a decent range for the tremolo.

Next thing to do, anyways, is to make adjustable end pieces, that allow back and forth movement, to 'dial in' possible sweet spot(s) in eccentrics' rotation(and therefore the tremolo bar's positions).
Also to find out, if the eccentric rod's ends need something else than slide bearings, to allow as friction free action as possible. If so, I have already 5x9x9mm needle bearings for that. 

Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on October 29, 2020, 11:27:33 PM
Tremolo test:
 


It definitely needs ball/needle bearings for the ends of the eccentric rod. The tremolo range itself is rather mild, when compared to Fender or Floyd Rose -type ones. So, no dive bombing yet.

Obviously, the more eccentric the eccentric is, the wider the range. Although possible, I'm not sure, if it's practical to use much larger ones to increase it, as it's not easy to find slim enough ball bearings for bigger diameters(at least from local dealers).

One further option could be to make a 'crankshaft-connecting rod' -like linkages, allowing the use of a lot smaller ball bearings. I wouldn't mind possible steam punk -appearance, as long as it follows the "kiss"(keep it simple, sorveltaja) -principle.

--
In general, the concept seems to work rather well. When pressing the tremolo bar(a spanner) down, and releasing it, the strings get back to tune. When moving it up and down, and releasing it, the strings get 'almost' back to tune. Just a bit of flat/sharp, depending of the direction.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on October 30, 2020, 09:14:54 PM
Today, while wondering how to make the tremolo more 'twangy', I browsed the online version of the '507 mechanical movements', and suddenly an idea popped out of thin air:

 


To increase the eccentricity, using already existing combination of parts, the blue ones will be added. The eccentricity should then go from 2.5mm to 8.5mm.

I'll use mild steel for them:

 


The axles and 'crank webs', after machined, are then silver soldered together. Before that, I should probably make the webs from aluminum, and use grub screws for both axles, to test, how close or far that 8.5mm is, when compared to 'traditional' floating tremolo like Floyd Rose.

Also the end pieces, housing the ball/needle bearings, need to be made of metal, as the printed ones are way too elastic.


 


Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on November 03, 2020, 07:25:29 PM
Frankenstein Tremolo has a new, temporary arm:
 


It's a Strat-style tremolo bar. I had to increase the eccentricity 2mm, as I don't have M4 grub screws, and the ordinary ones didn't fit so closely. So now it(eccentricity) is ~10.5mm.

When testing, and comparing the action to commercial tremolo, it's almost there, so it's close enough for me. Stability(or how the strings return in tune) is to be found out only after the construction is all-metal. The end parts(currently printed ones) might then have ball- or needle bearings, if necessary.

After all, I'm glad that the essence of the "flunkenstein tremolo" has finally started to show signs of usability. I'll do some finishing(filing/machining) only for the parts, that are protruding, or are in the way, like the aluminum ones, that form the linkages between string retainer and eccentrics. Also that M8 stud, in the middle of the 'fork' is to be shortened.

What's left, is to make the additional 'crankshafts' out of steel parts, that are then silver soldered together, to get rid of the lowermost pair of M4 screws. The M8 stump(once shortened), is better suited  for the Bigsby-like tremolo bar. If memory serves, I should have some very soft, 5mm aluminum sheet, which could be used to make that.

--
Other things, after that tremolo is done:

- make the roller nut housing from alu/brass 
- remove as exact as possible amount of wood from the end of the fretboard, to get the rollers center in the 'zero fret' -position
- make new roller elements for the bridge, which follow the neck's 400mm radius(part of (possible) fine tuning process)

I could go on and on, but better to take one step at a time.

Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on November 06, 2020, 08:12:52 PM
New, soldered parts for the tremolo:

 


I used round 12mm mild steel bar for the webs, as there was a lot less material to be removed, when compared to 25mm one, that I originally intended to use. The lathe, that I have, has a whopping 60W of raw power, and it would take forever to machine such pieces from a bigger steel blank.

The bottom surfaces of the webs need some rounding, as they will end up being quite close to the surface of the guitar.

--
In the meantime, I've been also looking ways to machine the roller nut housing out of metal. Only problem is, that it's a bit over 43mm wide, and would need a rather long 1.5mm drill bit to make the hole for the axle. At some point, I'll order couple of them, but for now, it'll have to wait.

--
I guess, that now fiddling with the tremolo mechanism can take a rest, and it's time to concentrate on the tremolo arm. I found the previously mentioned 5mm aluminum sheet, so it will be used. The form of the (tremolo)bar isn't yet clear, but for a starters, something like this:

 


Cylindrical aluminum(or steel) part could hold ordinary M8 steel nut in it, as it doesn't wear out so easily, as alu does.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on November 07, 2020, 07:26:55 PM
Today some filing:
 


The shape is from Bigsby B11 -3d model. I had to scale it up quite a lot, so that it has a similar "reach", that Strat-style(although usually being closer to the bridge) one has:

 


As can be seen, the latter has slight upwards angled part in it, which allows more range, when pushing the bar all the way down. Otherwise the end of it would hit the guitar's surface, when doing something like 'divebombing'.

To 'compensate', using the straight bar, an angled part could be added to the end, where it connects to the tremolo itself. The angle of the Strat-style bar could then perhaps be a used as a 'reference', or as a starting point, when testing the action.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on November 09, 2020, 08:41:48 PM
The tremolo bar doesn't seem to need the angled part, as same can be achieved by moving the end parts(printed ones) closer to the bridge:
 


A bit of linkage shaping:

 
g]

The upper half should preferably be even slimmer than that, so perhaps it needs to be made of brass or steel instead of aluminum.

Although the eccentric rod has ball bearings in it, pushing the tremolo bar down tends to drag the string retainer down also, and therefore limiting the range.
Don't know why that still happens.

Nevertheless, how about the analogy of an engine, that uses crankshaft, connecting rod, and a piston. Only thing, that keeps the piston movement linear, I guess, is the cylinder.

Fortunately the cylinder isn't needed in this case(but who knows). A metal plate, having suitable thickness, under the linkages, appears to do the trick.
Not a perfect solution, but it increases the range of the tremolo bar to much more usable level.

Besides, the bottom surfaces of the linkages need to slide along the metal plate only, when the bar is pressed down, so(hopefully) no constant contact is necessary.   
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on November 11, 2020, 07:25:13 PM
Now the tremolo has aluminum end parts:

 


They have 6x12x4mm ball bearings in them, so the action is smoother. The weak points are the linkages, that just don't have enough grip on the string retainer end. I would rather make the linkages as long as possible, to lessen the retainer downward dragging, when the bar is pressed down.

But as usually on Strat-style bodies, this also has a curved bevel at the point, where the picking hand rests. Although the end parts are quite close to the bridge, the lowermost one(in the pic above) has already an increasing gap under it. 

I have a feeling, that it's time for some woodwork for a change. The body of the guitar is made of very lighweight wood, being easily butchered shaped, and then piece of wood added. Don't know yet, how to do that, as the resulting 'top' surface should be flat.

As always, there is only one way to find out.

--
Tremolo bar itself could use a friction part, where it connects to the tremolo. Meaning, that it shouldn't wobble loosely, or be too tight to move(personal preference). That movement isn't associated with the string tension altering, but rather moving the bar out of the way, when one so desires.

One idea for that, could be to use a 'semi-locking' component, like on 'nyloc' nuts, that have a nylon component in them, preventing them from loosening.

The plan is to enlarge the bar's hole, and attach with small screws a piece of machined nylon bar, that has (partial)M8 thread to it:

 


--
Again, another idea, considering the roller nut body, or housing, made of metal. The 1.5mm drill bits, that I have, are bit too short for drilling the 43mm deep hole in one go, so why not try to make some sort of fixture, that could possibly guide the drilling on both ends to make an acceptably straight hole for the axle.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: vtsteam on November 11, 2020, 10:23:52 PM
Amazing the things you do, sorveltaja!  :bow:

I just ordered some silver braze today, myself. Some of the nickel-silver variety.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on November 12, 2020, 05:20:18 PM
Steve, thanks. Don't know about amazing, but sometimes, when working on a project, at one point it starts to have its own "drive", and just by doing, things happen. Hard to explain, but it's like a continuous flow of some sort.

But yeah, silver soldering, or brazing is my favorite, as it doesn't require equipments, that use oxy/acetylene.

Aluminum brazing could have second place, although for some reason, it isn't as straightforward, as it doesn't seem to have the 'capillary' filling effect. On the other hand, I have used a propane torch, which provides enough heat to make solid, but not airtight bond between the parts.
It's been a while, since I used alu braze, and perhaps, if the tremolo bar needs to be extended(once it has been moved further away from the string retainer and bridge), it'll be used.

--
Most of the curved part of the bevel removed:
 


I used saws like this:

 


Lowermost one is gyokucho, and other is, if memory serves, dozuki. I used the latter to start a straight groove, as it has a 'back bone'. Former one was then used to saw a slice off of the bevels surface.

Actually I had to make two cuts, to remove all of the curved surface. But anyways, those japanese saws, at least for me, are more comfortable to use, as the pulling, instead of pushing, naturally tends to keep the blade straight.

Then some sanding, to make the markings disappear:

 


Filling the holes:
 


Then filling the bevel with a chunk of pine:

 


Excess of the pine plank is sawed off, and it's time to make a milling fixture for further shaping:
 


6mm milling bit, and also a piece of 6mm metal rod, so it's a breeze to follow the contour of the body. After that, top surface is to be milled flat. But it'll have to wait overnight, to make sure, that the glue is dried, and the screws can be removed out of the way.

Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on November 14, 2020, 08:31:34 PM
Preliminary woodwork is done:

 


It's bit bumpy on the edge contour part, and will be taken care of at the stage, when the body is to be prepared for painting. At least there is now more room to move the tremolo away from the string retainer, as long as the fork of it doesn't interfere with the spring.

When thinking about the guitar bodies(and some furnitures), that I've painted in the past, they are far from good. Not that the looks is that important, but what can one expect, when painting with a brush, using thick paint.

For once, it would be nice to have a smooth, evenly painted surface.

Ordinary spray paint cans, available from hardware stores, have quite limited colour scale. The colour, or say, kind of colour, that I'm after, is subtly translucent, like when looking at tomato. It is neither plain red, nor plain orange. Closest acrylic colours are cinnabar or vermilion, but nah, they are still flat colours.

Anyways, small airbrush, although I have never used one, may be a considerable option. Good ones are pricey for occasional use, so why not make one. There are plenty of Youtube videos, where they use components/parts, that I already have. As long as it's simple, and doesn't spit, I'm in.

I have a small compressor, that doesn't have a tank, but few big, interconnected soda bottles can be used to beef up its 'breathing capacity'.
 
So, exploring the ways, of how to combine colours, and test the techniques, is a subject for a (possibly)forthcoming side-project of its own. 

--
I managed to make almost straight hole, without breaking the 1.5mm drill bit:

 


First I drilled as deep as possible, and at the end, there was only 2 or 3mm of the drill bit length in the chuck. Very slow and tedious thing to do, as this kind of aluminum tends to stick to the flutes of the drill bit, and cause notorious 'snap'. Without having any proper cutting fluid, I applied some beeswax to the flutes often. Don't know how or why it works, but the thing that matters, is the end result.

The straight part of the hole itself is a bit loose for 1.5mm rod. When drilling from the other end, it went off by a small amount, as I expected. That eccentricity between the holes, after all, seems to be a good thing, as now that rod have to be tapped, or pressed to get it through, keeping it firmly in place.

Hard to say at this point, if that's the case, after the slots for rollers are machined. If the hole is still too loose after that, then other tricks like tinning the rod, will be used.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on November 16, 2020, 09:38:03 PM
Aluminum roller nut so far:
 


The slots are bit off, as I forgot to lock the lathe's carriage, when milling first three ones. It isn't necessarily the final nut, but for now, good enough. It needs to be shortened from both ends, and 1mm milled off of the bottom surface. Then some general rounding.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on November 17, 2020, 09:17:38 PM
Finally, the fixed tailpiece:

 


Other than that, not much progress today. When on a drawing board, I wondered how to make the new, longer linkages. If steel was used, it would be a very lengthy process, be it from solid, or discrete parts silver soldered together.

I have harder grade aluminum, than the already made ones were made of. It's just so much easier to form with a small mill, than steel. Brass sheet could be another option, but I wan't save it for the 'rainy day'.

Not sure yet, about how long they will be. It's again about the 'feeling' of the tremolo bar. When moving the tremolo further away from the string retainer, the bar hits it, or the bridge, when pressing it down, limiting the range. There is a fix: raise the bar, and see, how it goes.

--
In the meantime, I have tested some diy-techniques from Youtube, considering finishing of the body. Most obvious is the crackling effect, using white glue and acrylic paint. But so far, the results are way too rough or exaggerated.

-
Other than that, one idea is to laser print an image, or patterns to the black paper, then embed iron powder to them, by ironing. At first, there isn't much to see, but once the iron powder starts to react with the ambient air's moisture, it rusts.

I haven't tested that with black paper yet, but with white one, yes.

To get the patterns to absorb as much iron powder, as possible, the ironing process should probably be repeated.

I've done some tests using copper powder, but to get it more visible, it needs to be 'mangled'(don't know, if that's the right term), or maybe treated with an etchant, to 'open it up'.

 
 
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on November 18, 2020, 09:42:45 PM
About the body finishing: it seems to be a bottomless rabbit hole, to test all the ideas, that comes to mind. Latest being about using procedures like electroforming(or electrotyping), to make metal patterns.

I think it's not the right time to dig in that deep into it. So, back to the 'kiss' -principle.

 
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on November 19, 2020, 07:59:05 PM
New, longer linkages:

 


They are about twice as long as the previous ones. Infact, there was barely room in my lathe to bore the holes, so that's as long, as they'll get.

Action is smooth, although to stay in tune, it has use be used like a traditional Strat(and perhaps Bigsby) -style one.

The tremolo is more sensitive, than I expected, so that'll be the final mechanism(at least for now).

Next thing to do, is to shape the linkages. After that, if the ends, which hold the string retainer, are in the way, then move the whole system as far from the bridge, as possible(~10-20mm).

Then general rounding of the shapes of the bar. Its connecting point to the tremolo might need angled parts(printed ones in the above pic). Not sure about that yet.

When all that is done, it's time to move back to the neck. The nut needs to be centered to the 'zero fret' position, by removing wood from the end of the fretboard. I think I'll do some frequency measurements, while at it. To get any readings, obviously a pickup needs to be installed.




Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on November 20, 2020, 08:33:22 PM
Tremolo bar, after some filing and wet sanding. Linkages are preshaped, and ready for smoothing:

 




 



 
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on November 21, 2020, 08:55:27 PM
When looking at it, there is http:// -prefix on my hosting server's address. I tried to access it by entering https, but for now, it doesn't seem to lead anywhere.

I'm generally using an older version of Firefox, as there are some plugins and options, that aren't compatible/don't exist in newer ones.
So, on the newer versions, maybe it's about 'site prefences', or security related browser settings.

--
I think the idea for renovating this guitar has been brewing quite some time, as I found a preshaped pickguard for it:

 


Like on Strat-style guitars, the pickguard is used to hold the pickups, and also the volume- and tone control pots.

Only one small part of it has been snapped off, but it should be easy to fix.

It's made of clear 2mm plexiglass, and the plan is to bevel/smooth its edges, then lightly sand it to have a satin surface.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on November 24, 2020, 09:15:04 PM
Tremolo is now moved further away from the bridge:

 


Some work on the bar end:

 


It has a partially threaded nylon part inside the raising bush. Once the scews are shortened, then filing and sanding, to 'morph' the alu parts together.

As mentioned earlier, the linkages need to have some sort of 'liner', to keep the motion more linear. Some sort of roller/ball bearing based solution.

At this point I can see, how cleverly the Stetsbar tremolo(also mentioned earlier) is designed. Perhaps I'll try to approach that concept later.

--
Again, another idea about finishing of the body. Maybe something, that contrasts its rather light weight. Something, that has a natural element in it. But we'll see.

Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on November 25, 2020, 08:36:17 PM
Test version of the rollers for the linkages:

 


Printed one:

 


It has a 3mm lapped steel rod(might be from cd/dvd recorder), and 3x6x2.5mm ball bearings(from computer supply fans). They have nice press fit tightness, but do they stay in place in use, remains to be seen.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on November 26, 2020, 08:41:55 PM
To put the tremolo aside, it's time to find out, how much the roller nut, in it's current position, causes deviation, when compared to 'correct frequencies'. Meaning, that the center of the rollers should ideally be at the zero-fret position.

So, before attempting to remove wood from the end of the fretboard, I'll measure the difference(s), just out of curiosity. I have another guitar, that has a locking nut, and it'll be used as well for comparison.

But yeah, for the measurements, at first, the pickup needs to be added:

 


It needs some kind of (possibly printed)supporting part under it, though.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on November 28, 2020, 07:52:40 PM
Pickup is now added:

 


As can be seen, the end of the fretboard is, where I tested dyeing. Well not exactly dye, but a felt tip pen. Then wiped with acetone to remove all the rest, that didn't absorb in to the wood.

I might have to remake the maple fret markers, as they'll get their share of black colour too.

--
In the meantime I have also done some testings, considering the body finishing. I decided to stick with either copper-, or iron powder. The latter one seems to give more shades, from dark brown to blood red to yellow-ish.

Chemicals found in my closets: vinegar, citric acid, phosphoric acid, and copper sulfate appear to give the most visible effects. If there are results worth mentioning, I'll post some sample pics.

Otherwise, I'll just use some plain color for the finishing, and then move on with the project.




 
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on November 29, 2020, 09:45:43 PM
I think I have a very likely candidate for the body finish:
 


In the picture it looks more like brownish, but actually it's closer to red. Subtle variations of the shades makes it look more vivid.

Procedure is simple; I applied thinned black paint with a brush, for the base layer, then sprinkled iron powder to cover all of it.
After that, excess powder was removed by knocking the steel sheet.

To embed the iron particles into the base paint, a soft rubber roll was used. When the paint has dried, remaining loose iron particles were removed with soft brush:

 


Then spraying phosphoric acid(not pure, but as a part of some sort of cleaner/rust remover), to 'activate' the iron particles. At that stage, when they react between each other, the rotten smell released is quite strong.

But anyways, to get over it, after 5-10 minutes, I rinsed the surface with water(not sure about giving the guitar body a shower, but who knows), to diminish the phosphoric acid's reaction.

Next the surface was dried using a warm air blower.

Then I sprayed copper sulfate to cover the iron powder layer. Again, after few minutes, the surface was rinsed with water, and let dry. That's when the colours starts to appear.
The result in the above pic is after repeating the treatment two or three times.


Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on December 02, 2020, 09:05:22 PM
Today I sanded the the guitar body, to even out the bumps and such. There isn't much to look at it at the moment. As it will have a satin/matte top coat(s), small irregularities don't matter that much to me.

In the meantime, I also took a look if the roller nut, at it's current position, causes 'out of tune' -phenomena. Indeed it does. It's clearly audible on thinner strings, so I didn't even bother to measure it.

--
Again, about the body finishing. I just found out the exact kind of a patterns, that I was originally after. It's called Lichtenberg-effect. Especially, when burned in wood.

It's highly unlikely, that I would attempt to follow that road. At first, there are high voltages involved(as far, as I know). Then, the resulting smoke alone would be a prohibitive factor, if one lives in the apartment.

--
There might be slower, low-voltage methods, like using the exciter to produce tiny, hot plasma stream. In practice, it makes similar patterns(depends on the wood used), although in smaller scale.

Too much hassle, I should know by now. But still, if anything usable appears by that, I'll use it for the pickguard. Otherwise it'll have a plain colour.   
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: vtsteam on December 02, 2020, 09:55:58 PM
Lichtenberg figure......I had to look that one up.  :beer:
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: Sea.dog on December 03, 2020, 04:45:13 AM
One or two people have managed to fry themselves playing with Lichtenberg patterning. I think it's usual to use a microwave oven transformer for the process. That's 2kV with a fair few milliamps behind it. More than enough to be lethal if you treat it with contempt  :zap:
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: vtsteam on December 03, 2020, 10:33:30 AM
Not likely to try that patterning method myself, but our 117 volt house supply can be lethal, too if treated with contempt.  :zap:   

Nevertheless......  :dremel:
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: awemawson on December 03, 2020, 10:48:37 AM
Steve is your supply 'centre tap earthed' ?

The 110 volt equipment that I working on in various oil refineries was fed by 'centre tap earthed' supplies so there was only 55 volts to earth for each 'leg' whereas here one leg (neutral) is tied to earth either at the consumers termination box or at the local transformer, and the other leg is a nice juicy nominal 240 volts  :bugeye:
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: vtsteam on December 03, 2020, 11:24:59 AM
At the circuit breaker panel we get 240 across the outer two lines with a third center tapped earth to yield 120 (also called 110) to ground (earth?)  and at most house outlets. Some high voltage outlets for things like clothes dryers, stoves, welder have 240 outlets.

I can wire for 240 or 110 therfore, but not 55.

Heh, that doesn't add up.....mixed terminology.....

okay 240 or 120, but not 60   or in other words,

220 or 110, but not 55
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on December 05, 2020, 08:45:20 PM
Body finishing, take one:
 


I think it's a lot easier to use the iron powder for the topmost part of the body only, and treat rest of it separately. At this point there is some excess powder, making the surface look bumpy. But I'll brush it away, when the base paint has dried. 

Then, phosphoric acid, and after that, copper sulfate to see, if the powder coating is even enough. If not, then some light sanding, and repeating the paint and powder -part.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on December 10, 2020, 08:32:19 PM
As can be expected, I got lost again with the body finishing. At first, when the iron powder was applied, and let the base paint to cure, I just sprayed different chemicals in random order, letting the surface to dry between them. Result was rather nice, rusty look.

Then I insisted on testing some more, and after all, I couldn't get even close to similar look again

 :bang: 

Conclusion: I'll leave the body unfinished. Surface is smoother than it looks, as I sanded it, to make possible finishing in the future easier to approach. There is still enough iron powder for the magnet to stick:

 


Next the fret markers have to be remade. I'll leave the staining of the fretboard out, as it is too complex with markers on, and isn't really that necessary.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: vtsteam on December 10, 2020, 09:27:31 PM
In painting (art) that often happens. But then they say you have to destroy before you can create. And you are urged to keep going no matter what.

In the photo, though it does look interesting, kind of like the surface of the moon. Anyway, enjoying your progress.  :coffee:
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on December 11, 2020, 09:13:31 PM
Yeah, although I don't think myself as an artist, that appears to be the case. It's like a sort of continuum, which isn't necessarily much observed, while one is at it.

--
Finally, some progress in form of removing 3mm wood from the end of the fretboard:
 


I also managed to make new fret markers. What comes to the headstock, to keep the 'woody' appearance, I'm thinking of gluing 0.5mm veneer/plywood to its top surface, as it has ugly dents/nicks and holes in it.

After that, general sanding of the neck's maple part, to remove years worth of grit and dirt, to restore its natural colour.   
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on December 12, 2020, 08:27:14 PM
Today, most of the neck was sanded and lacquered. Fretboard turned almost black, without any dyeing. What's left, is the headstock:
 


I got overly excited, when sanding the edges of the glued veneer/plywood, and removed bit too much.

That led me to the idea of headstock binding. It's basically using thin strips of wood, or other desired material, that is glued in the routed 'channel', and then trimmed/smoothed flush with the two connected surfaces. 

I'm not sure about that yet, as it would require a special routing/milling fixture(s), to get any decent results. It's again about looks, and/or testing 'diy' -methods to see, what the outcome is.

If I end up going that route, I doubt that I'd use wood or other strips to fill the channel, as there are, on the top of the headstock, pretty steep curves. More likely I'd fill it with black or other dark coloured filler.

On the other hand, simpler way could be to replace the glued plywood with new one, and be more careful, when sanding its edges. 





Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on December 13, 2020, 08:36:15 PM
Headstock with new veneer:

 


I simplified the shape a bit, as it doesn't have to resemble Ibanez or any other brand. That way the finishing, and possible routing for the binding should be a lot easier.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on December 14, 2020, 09:18:28 PM
Testing, how to remove chrome plating from the tuning machine parts:
 


I have never been much of a fan of reflective/chromed parts in a guitar.

First I tried rotating steel brush, for the tuning pegs at the bottom, which wasn't such a good idea, as the base material is zinc, or some kind of soft pot metal.

The ones above them are more succesful, because they are 'reverse plated', using stainless steel pot as a cathode. The electrolyte, or solution used was phosphoric acid. Current was about 3 amp.

Parts were immersed 5-10 seconds at a time, and observed, until whole chrome layer was etched off.

Same treatment was used for the uppermost parts, that are made of brass.

Reason for the stripping of the chrome out, is to allow the parts to be naturally coloured by oxidation/patina(and also by sweat from my paws).

Tuning machine housings are also chrome plated, but they would have to be pried open, to get the inner parts out of the way. So I'll probably leave them as they are, unless some crazy ideas appear.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: Sea.dog on December 15, 2020, 07:53:09 AM
Be aware that the solution, after you've stripped the chrome, is very toxic. Google Hexavalent Chromium.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on December 15, 2020, 07:47:45 PM
Seadog, thanks for warning. Phosphoric acid, that was used, is a part of cleaning solution, that forms quite dense foam, when the submerged part bubbles, and then perhaps lessening the release of fumes(maybe it's an intended property of that specific solution, can't tell).

In general, I'll try to avoid skin contact with any of the metal-treating solutions, at all costs. Might sound funny, but I have a habit of wearing safety goggles, when handling such liquids.

--
Truss rod cover in the making:

 


Same material(0.5mm plywood) is used. As the headstock is tilted, that piece needs to be bent to follow the two angled surfaces. It was boiled in water about 10 minutes, and then lightly clamped, until it dries, and hopefully keeps its form.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on December 16, 2020, 08:16:33 PM
There isn't much left to do with the neck, so now it's time to put the pickguard on the table:
 


I used a printed Stratocaster's template to locate the holes for the pickups. Obviously material between holes needs to be removed.

Currently I have only the covers, but not the actual pickups.

Some nice set of Yngwie Malmsteen signature ones would be jolly good, but they are beyond the budget at the moment. Maybe at some point in the future.

In the meantime, I've been looking, what the local dealers have to offer. One that isn't so far from me, has Kent Armstrong single coil for the bridge, but not for the neck. For it, a mid-priced Seymour Duncan could be the choice.

What comes to the middle pickup, I think I'll leave it out for now, to keep the cost down. Besides, when I had a Strat-style guitar, I hardly used it, because it had so thin sound. Of course it has its uses for those, who can handle the rhythmic stuff(like ska or reggae). 

For the wiring, I'm thinking of using Les Paul-type one, with three position switch, and volume pot for each pickup. Tone control(s) would be optional.

Once I get the pickups, there is again another opportunity for aural testings.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on December 17, 2020, 04:55:55 PM
Forming of the pickup holes went well. Holes for the screws will be drilled next:

 


Then holes for the volume pots and the switch. Values of the pots, I'm not sure yet. Maybe 250k for starters. More about that, when I get the pickups.




Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on December 19, 2020, 07:58:27 PM
One thing, that I had completely forgot - a jack plate. Piece of steel for it:
 


It's 0.7mm thick, and has enough meat to make 35-40mm, round plate. Of course, I had to test, how it receives copper, once the covering lacquer layer was sanded off.

I have done quite some pcb etching on previous projects, and as a side result, there is pretty much exhausted sodium persulfate solution, that has, I guess, plenty of copper in it.
When dipping a metal part(brass or steel) into that solution, it gets a copper layer. It doesn't seem to work equally on different kinds of steels, and just peels/rubs off, though.

The plate above, it's some sort of soft steel, and the copper appears to stick well in it. As the layer is very thin, when the oxidation of that base metal starts, the copper layer may degrade also, unless sealed with something like lacquer/varnish.

So I'm going to 'copper plate' the whole piece, and then put it in an ultrasonic cleaner(or perhaps heat it), to see how much of the copper remains.

But enough of that babbling. Generally, I prefer the jack plate, that is on the top surface of the guitar body, instead of being in its 'butt'. Also I prefer using 90 degrees angled plugs, as they don't protrude/be in a way, like straight ones do.

Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on December 21, 2020, 07:42:12 PM
Today some shopping. I got the neck pickup that I was looking for, but the bridge one was out of stock. So how about using something, that I already have laying around - Wilkinson P-90:
 


It barely fits in the cavity, so as the pickup cover is slightly tapered(wider on the bottom), I'm removing about 1mm of its side surfaces, to remove the taper, and slim it a bit as well. As it's already a night time, I'll finish it tomorrow. Still, some wood needs to be removed from the guitar body, to get the pickup positioned straight.

Obviously the pickguard needs to be modified for that pickup too.

Overall, that p-90 pickup is a low-output one, which doesn't bother me, as I intend to use it(and the rest of the guitar also) for clean, or slightly overdriven Strat-like sounds, as an alternative for the other guitar, that has a lot 'hotter' humbuckers in it.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on December 22, 2020, 08:46:48 PM
Pickguard is now ready for finishing:

 


There was a gap on the lower side of the new pickup hole. I filled it using the 'super glue-baking soda' -trick.

Next thing to do is to wet sand whole pickguard, then perhaps a rusty finish to match the body.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: vtsteam on December 22, 2020, 11:36:51 PM
I'm very much enjoying your finishing. I'm imagining a road warrior guitar, unearthed in the desert by the last rocker on earth.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on December 24, 2020, 07:41:00 PM
Steve, thanks. Yeah, mad max, or should I say, madmodder max guitar(http://www.elisanet.fi/kz1706/emot/134.gif).

--
I think the finishing is now done:

 


I tested, that the pickups are ok, and give signals, before putting the strings in. For some reason, the neck pickup isn't exactly at the center. I'll let it be that way, as a reminder of the distinct perfection of imperfection.

What's left - if nothing else appears, wiring of the pickups, pots, and the switch.

Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: vtsteam on December 25, 2020, 06:14:00 PM
Very cool.  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: sorveltaja on December 27, 2020, 08:00:11 PM
Guitar is almost finished:

 


I added a brass strip between tremolo and jack plate(ground), as that connection keeps the hum down. Usually it is hidden inside the guitar body.

Only the volume knobs need to be made, or printed. I'll leave the printed roller nut housing on, until I get a longer 1.5mm drill bit, to make a final one, out of brass.

--
In general, although the body finishing could be better, that guitar feels now more usable for soundscape painting. Only time will tell, what things might need to be improved.
Tremolo could also be better, but it works well enough, and is smooth, when used one-way(pushed down).

Pickups produce strat-like sounds, which was one the goals. It's easier to get the intonation adjusted, once the roller nut was moved, to where it's center should be at( zero fret).

--
So it's time to wrap up this project. I'm already thinking of what the next one could be about. Maybe it'll have to do with building a time machine audio effects, but as the previous projects were about that, perhaps something totally different.
Title: Re: Scalloping the guitar fretboard - possibly also renovation of the instrument
Post by: vtsteam on December 27, 2020, 11:49:42 PM
Really nice, sorveltaja.  :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :beer: