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Gallery, Projects and General => Project Logs => Topic started by: AdeV on February 09, 2010, 07:16:31 PM

Title: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on February 09, 2010, 07:16:31 PM
A couple of years ago, Dad built himself this:

(http://www.solutionengineer.com/images/bmwcapri1.jpg)

For anyone who doesn't recognise it (probably if you're from Forrin), it's a Ford Capri. With a 5 litre BMW V8 in it, from an M5.

When the engine was first being worked over, it was decided that a dry sump would be the best option. So, the alloy BMW sump (which was a monster) was binned & replaced with a welded steel unit. Unfortunately, the steel sump has always leaked, and is surprisingly heavy. So, an aluminium replacement was always on the cards.
And, now that I have a milling machine, it's game on :)

So, first job was to secure some aluminium. I needed a piece some 22"x10"x2.5"; a couple of quotes both came in around the £200 mark. Since that was clearly ridiculous, I bought a lump that's been on eBay for a while - a disc some 869mm in diameter, 2.5" thick. It arrived yesterday, so the first job was to get it on the mill:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/01-InitialSetup.jpg)

Weighing in at some 100kg+, that piece is going nowhere... I added a couple of clamps which basically just nailed it in place.

You can just about make out the layout lines on the above pic. That piece is big enough for 2 sumps - which is kind of handy, as I will need one for MY Capri soon  :D

So, the first job is to cut the bulk of the material away from around the 2 sumps. As I don't have a bandsaw anything like man enough for the job, I'm having to mill it out. Using a 6mm ripper (roughing cutter), here's the first cut going on:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/02-FirstBlood.jpg)

After about 3; hours, here's the result. Each slot is 1.3" deep, or just a shade over 1/2 way though the block.

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/03-Day1Progress1.jpg)

I can't cut any deeper than 1.3" without over-stressing the cutter, as the broken one in the above picture proves. Luckily, I bought 2... and I could do with another 2 or 3 as I've got a lot of slots to go... However, if anyone's wondering how good these cutters are vs. a normal 6mm end-mill; well, it's a world apart. This thing munches through aluminium like it's hardly there.

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/ripper.jpg)

A gratuitous shot of the slots so far.

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/04-Day1Progress2.jpg)

I've cut about 736mm slot by 6mm width by 33mm deep, or nearly 146,000mm3 (8.9in3), and despite breaking the cutter (my own fault - I mounted it too low in the collet, and it snapped at the flat - i.e. the weakest point of the shank) I'm pretty happy with progress so far.

Tomorrow... more slotting :)
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: andyf on February 09, 2010, 07:34:24 PM
Ade, if you have a furnace, you should be able to get another sump or two out of the forthcoming swarf, once you've dug your way out of it to the door  :lol: :lol:
Andy
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on February 09, 2010, 07:35:25 PM
A couple of bits I forgot to mention above...

- I've drilled a hole right through in each corner, so when I turn the block over I've got reference points for the slots on the other side.

- I'm using an air blast to keep the slot clean as I mill it - which requires at least 4 hands when using the hand wheel, and I could use an extra eye to keep the DRO under surveillance... I'll be shaking aluminium chips out of my hair for a week, I think...

- The billet cost me £150 on eBay - or just about £1.40/kg. Which is a real bargain but, as you can see, the piece only just fits on the machine... Fortunately, I'll have lots left over afterwards for any other project that takes my fancy - even another sump, if I get it re-cast into a fresh billet...

Andy - you replied while I was typing this, but great minds & all that.....

I will have to pick the swarf up, however, from what must be a 20 ft radius!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Darren on February 09, 2010, 08:11:14 PM
That is some lump of alloy !!

You'll have some nice bits left over  :)
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: CrewCab on February 09, 2010, 08:38:31 PM
I will have to pick the swarf up, however, from what must be a 20 ft radius!

a £25 Argos vacuum could be a good investment :thumbup:

Looking forward to following this Ade,  ................ good looking Capri, I'm guessing Dad doesn't drive over many raised manhole covers  :bugeye:

CC  :beer:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on February 09, 2010, 09:03:34 PM
I will have to pick the swarf up, however, from what must be a 20 ft radius!

a £25 Argos vacuum could be a good investment :thumbup:

Looking forward to following this Ade,  ................ good looking Capri, I'm guessing Dad doesn't drive over many raised manhole covers  :bugeye:

CC  :beer:

I have the vacuum cleaner - it dribbles cutting oil everywhere it goes, the filters are that wet - but I found that I couldn't get the nozzle close enough to the cutter, especially on the deep cuts, to  be of any practical use. About 45 mins of that time at the milling machine was spent digging the compacted swarf out of the trough, where the vac had failed to pick it up. The air blast - whilst incomparably messier - had the advantage of both cooling the cutter so I could run it dry, and keeping the trough swarf free (by making the workshop anything but swarf free, I admit...).

The Capri has seen some "bouncing off the kerbs" action, fortunately they tend not to have manholes on racing circuits  :)
It also got crashed into a few times... always at the front, of course; luckily, no mechanical damage, only bodywork and the occasional suspension strut.

Mine will look extremely similar, although I hope to blend the bodywork into the arches a bit better; and I'm trying to figure out how to get double-wishbone front suspension in; one of the problems Dad had with those massive front tyres combined with a McPherson strut was, he ended up with a large scrub angle: So, as you turn the steering wheel, the outside tyre tries to push forward & the inner tyre tries to pull backwards - if you see what I mean - instead of pivoting on a point. The result is massively heavy steering, and a decided lack of controllability, especially under braking. Not to mention excessive front tyre wear. He's fixed that by going back to narrower front tyres; I plan to get my offsets correct & use the fact I can get a double-wishbone much further into the wheel than a McPherson strut will ever manage.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Jasonb on February 10, 2010, 02:35:17 AM
I'd probably have gone for a larger dia cutter to keep the depth/dia ratio a bit better. And also cutting fluid, looks like you are cutting dry.

Jason
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on February 10, 2010, 05:32:23 AM
I'd probably have gone for a larger dia cutter to keep the depth/dia ratio a bit better. And also cutting fluid, looks like you are cutting dry.

I certainly considered a larger cutter, but the 8mm cutters seem to have 10mm shanks, which would mean a minimum 10mm cut - almost twice as much material lost to swarf as with the 6mm. That said, if it ends up costing me £25+ in cutters, then that is a false economy. I'll see how long this 6mm cutter lasts before making any width changes.

As for cutting fluid; I used a bit of WD40 when the going got tough, which certainly helped the shank of the cutter to slide through. The tool itself barely got warm, however, so I think the speed I'm pushing it at is well within its dry capabilities. I did try it at 4600rpm for a while - and it really would power through the ali at that speed - but what with needing one hand to hold the air line, one hand to pump the coolant, one hand to work the power feed or manual feed, I found I was short of arms to the tune of 50%...

Of course, the answer would be to get the flood coolant system running, but I've no drip tray on the mill so it would go everywhere...

Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: No1_sonuk on February 10, 2010, 07:49:25 AM
Wouldn't a circular saw or angle-grinder be an easier way of getting through that?
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on February 10, 2010, 08:28:15 AM
Wouldn't a circular saw or angle-grinder be an easier way of getting through that?

It was considered:

- Circular saw is a pain, it still won't cut full depth, and is almost uncontrollable viz direction, and needs three arms to operate if using coolant, which you have to because otherwise it jams up in that depth of ali. I've cut a 1.5" deep piece before now, and so long as you're patient, it will cut that depth... just.

- Angle grinder; again, depth is the problem; but also the discs just clog up with aluminium.

I also considered a jigsaw, but again, it'd just take far too long, and I'm not sure if it's got the depth.

The best option would be a proper vertical bandsaw, a large Startrite for example (not the toy DeWalt one I have) - but the cost of buying & installing one far outweighs the lost material, cutters and time of milling it out, and my comedy bandsaw is OK for most of the jobs I throw at it.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Darren on February 10, 2010, 08:35:25 AM
One of those £30 circular saws in ALDIS would work well ..... cept for the depth.

To keep a circular saw cutting straight clamp a bit of battern or angle to the work piece and run the saw alongside that  :thumbup:

Then you should be able to cut from both sides, it's be quick too.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Bernd on February 10, 2010, 09:33:03 AM
AdeV,

Love the looks of that car. That front spoiler would work well for the people in Pennsylvania with all the snow they're getting. Would make a great snow plow.  :lol:

I can't believe the big piece of ally sitting on the mill.  :bugeye:

This is going to be one interesting post.

Bernd
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on February 10, 2010, 10:24:00 AM
The front of the car is getting remodelled a bit this year - narrower front wheels mean those wide front arches are much closer into the original wing; and the snowplough (which got mentioned every time it turned up at a track!) will be shorter & a bit narrower. It should also sit considerably closer to the ground, which will help it's stealthy looks (if anything with a big yellow stripe on it could be considered "stealthy"  :))

That ali lump is right on the limit of what will fit.... I've had to wind the head as far back as it would go to stand any chance of milling the slots without the whole thing being horribly unbalanced.

I wouldn't like to have to do anything with a piece of steel that size!  :bugeye:

More cutting out tonight.... I'd like to be ready to turn the piece over tomorrow, when I'll have an assistant on-site - pretty sure I can't manage it on my own!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Trion on February 10, 2010, 10:51:34 AM
Love the car. Great taste on colors, my car is also black and yellow, though more yellow than black :ddb:

I have just one concern. When I read about various mills, before buying mine, I read that some mills have a maximum table load. You'r not worried about crossing that? How did you lift it up there? I dont see any lifting hooks :scratch:

Regarding the ALDI saw. We have a milwaukee hand held circular saw at work. We use it for cutting stainless, and it works great as long as you cut straight. But if the saw is held on an angle, and the sides of the teeth touch the metal on their way up from the piece, the blade only lasts a minute or two..
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on February 10, 2010, 11:46:14 AM
I read up on the max table load for the Bridgeport (after loading the disc up...  ::)) - it's 750lbs, or about 340kg. The disc weighs a mere 106kgs (slightly less now :dremel:), so well within budget.

When it arrived on its pallet I rolled it to the bench & hoisted it up that high myself. To get it on the mill, me & a mate simply picked it up and (very gently) put it straight on the table. If I can get the rest of the topside slotting done tonight, then we'll simply lift the piece off the mill, turn it over (on the bench, most likely), and put it back on the mill the same way.

One thing I haven't considered yet... is how I'm going to stop the bit I'm cutting off from falling away as I finish the slots off. I can see me losing a cutter very easily in that scenario.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Jasonb on February 10, 2010, 11:55:08 AM
Quote
One thing I haven't considered yet... is how I'm going to stop the bit I'm cutting off from falling away as I finish the slots off. I can see me losing a cutter very easily in that scenario.

Leave a small section at each end and then saw it off by hand

Parafin is a good cutting fluid for ali.

Jason
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: No1_sonuk on February 10, 2010, 02:15:51 PM
Cut through at each end before the middle and tie a rope on it.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on February 10, 2010, 04:41:51 PM
Another thing I need to consider; as I get close to the final cuts, the end pieces will start sagging down, which is not desirable I think. Dad suggested putting some plywood underneath the entire piece, so the entire disc is supported. I think that's a pretty good idea, any views from the panel?

So, on to tonight's work... just more slotting, really. First job was to complete this slot from yesterday:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/05-Day2Start.jpg)

Nothing exciting happened, I used WD40 as coolant (the paraffin is reserved for the space heater!), the slot was completed & the disc rotated to pick up the next slot.Having lined the billet up, I need a reference for when I come to mill out the other side. So; pick a suitable spot & spot-drill:
(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/06-Spotting.jpg)

Then drill through (in hindsight, I should probably have left the drill holes blind for the time being, as all the WD40 dripped out of the holes - so I used lots more than I should have!):
(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/07-DrillingReference.jpg)

So now, when I turn the disk over, I've got 2 holes which I can draw a line between on the backside, which will exactly match the slot on the front side.

Finally, mill out to the desired depth. Which, in this case, is absolutely as far as I dare go:
(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/08-UpToYourNeck.jpg)

I started that slot with what was left of the old cutter (since it broke half way up the shank). I pushed it hard and fast and dry, until it snapped again - this time in the flutes. But it managed 0.600" - nearly half way down the slot. I loaded up the second cutter, and carried on with a bit less pace. No more photos, nothing exciting happened.

Next - rotate the disk again & make another slot (last one). Here it is after the first 0.200" pass:
(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/09-First200thou.jpg)

Swarf-tastic. I managed one more cut (to 0.400") before I called it a night; the bearing on top of the mill is starting to get hot, so tomorrow's first job is to whip the top off the bearing housing & re-pack it with grease. This is the same bearing that seized when I first had the mill, and it could really do with being replaced - but I don't know how... does anyone have a how-to, by any chance?
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: kvom on February 11, 2010, 08:06:43 AM
If it had been me, I'd have used a much bigger cutter.  My 5/8" endmill can easily take 1/4" deep cuts and could full depth.  Power feed on the x-axis is a big help too.  Your way is working though, so who can complain?   :beer:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Bernd on February 11, 2010, 09:22:50 AM
Swarf-tastic. I managed one more cut (to 0.400") before I called it a night; the bearing on top of the mill is starting to get hot, so tomorrow's first job is to whip the top off the bearing housing & re-pack it with grease. This is the same bearing that seized when I first had the mill, and it could really do with being replaced - but I don't know how... does anyone have a how-to, by any chance?


Here's a link to a post on how I fixed my fine down feed. There may be something in the pics that'll help. Unfortunatley my machine has variable speed and is much flater on top so I could do it the way I show in the pics. But you may pic up something on how ro take it apart. Fine feed fix (http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=499.0)

Bernd

Did a quick google and came up with something that might help. Bridgeport Parts (http://www.alternativemachinetool.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=198_57&osCsid=da3a67a46c8181ef8e96682c1509dcff)
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on February 11, 2010, 05:40:01 PM
kvom - I guess I'm too mean to lose big chunks of ali! The more that's solid, the more things I get to make...  :headbang:

bernd - interesting thread, thanks. I don't think I need to go that deep into mine, the fine feed works OK, as does the drill feed (although the return spring is bust, so I need to find a new one of those). I know how to get as far as looking at the bearing that's dodgy, but it's fixed in the bearing carrier; I believe it's a "light press fit", so maybe it gets pressed out from the other side? Not sure... Anyway, I just carried on today, I'll grease the bearing at the weekend.

So - Day 3. More of the same.... I finished the long slot down to depth on Side A, then - with an assistant - flipped the disc to Side B. I placed it on a bit of MDF so the pieces won't fall off as they're cut (that's the theory, anyway). Onwards.... I started with the other side of the same slot I was cutting yesterday. Here, there's 450 thou left to cut:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/10-Day3-450thou-to-go.jpg)

20 minutes later (the clock proves it...), there's only 50 thou left:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/11-50thou-to-go.jpg)

Shortly afterwards, I successfully separated the two parts, leaving me with a giant woodruff key :D :

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/12-GiantWooduffKey.jpg)

No other pix tonight, I got the piece lined up for a short slot & cut that to depth; and re-aligned it for the other really long slot - but ran out of time: Silent Witness was on tonight, so I came dashing home to watch it, only to find it was a repeat!  :bang:

Tomorrow, therefore, will feature an extra long milling programme.... Oh, and 3 more roughing cutters have turned up, so now I have an insurance policy against broken cutters! Which is good, because at ~5 mins cutting + 5 mins cleaning per 200 thou pass (22" long), it's taking too long. Each slot needs to be some 1300 thou deep, i.e. 6 passes, which is at least an hour. So with my new cutters, I will try to drive them a little harder & deeper, maybe taking 400 thou passes at about the same speed.

For what it's worth: The "woodruff key" offcut weighs about 8kg, according to my highly inaccurate bathroom scale, and the swarf I've collected in the hoover (which doesn't count what's splattered all over the wall, floor, and me) is around 2kg - although there's a fair quantity of oil in that too.
Anyone wanting to find out where I've been recently will have a very easy job: Just follow the trail of aluminium swarf!  :lol:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on February 12, 2010, 05:18:32 PM
Day 4: Hacked off another 2 pieces (approx 25kgs worth). I can now just about manoever the remaining lump around on my own, although it's still chuffing heavy...

No photos today, I took a video instead :) But it's going to take quite a bit of editing down, I'd like to get it down to about 4-5 mins (from slightly over an hour  :bugeye:). Hope to have that done tomorrow afternoon. Meanwhile, I need to hack one more "woodruff key" off, then cut the piece in half, then I'll finally have my 2x billets, 5 days after starting!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Brass_Machine on February 12, 2010, 11:45:50 PM
This is a very cool project log. I am very interested in it... there is a project on my back burner that needs a a dry sump. Priced em out... way too expensive. This may give me the courage to do my own.

Eric
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on February 13, 2010, 12:24:59 PM
Eric - I'm glad your enjoying it, although were' not quite at the real meat of the project yet! If it inspires you to make your own dry sump, that's great. Or, if this works, maybe I could make it for you! (shame we're in different countries though, the postage would be a bitch)...

Anyway, most of today I've been continuing to cut out the pieces. By the end of last night, I had the L-shaped slot (pic below) milled to depth, and when I took this photo I'd got the Z (ish) shaped slot cut to depth on the top side:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/13-Day5Side1.jpg)

Now, as you may recall, I've been drilling right through the piece to give myself markers on the opposite side, so I can line the slots up. It's been working very well, with only a few thou inaccuracy. Unfortunately, the big Z-shaped slot presented some new difficulties.... this is the first cut I've done where the milling head's been actually over the table. Of course, the long cut, with two holes in it, is not lined up over a T-slot; the ali is directly on the table, so I either have to drill the hole shallow, or commit the cardinal sin of drilling into the table itself. As that would never do, I opted for the shallow hole. Using the quill depth stop, I set enough movement to get right through the piece. Then, with the work off to one side, I fitted the drill bit, lowered the quill onto the stop, then raised the table until the point of the drill was almost kissing the table (maybe 0.002" up). Then, up with the quill, position the work, and drill. Those holes completed, I went to drill the 3rd hole - which, as luck would have it, was positioned over a T-slot. Great! Except.... due to the tab sticking out at the back of the piece, I couldn't lower the table enough to fit the drill bit in! I had to cut the slots first, then I could run the drill into position along the slot! Here's a pic; the drill is now in place. You can see the piece up by the column which won't go any lower, as it would hit the Z-axis dovetail:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/14-DrillWontFit.jpg)

I used a slightly smaller drill (5.5mm instead of 6mm) to make sure it didn't bind on the sides of the slot as I moved it into position. This was then drilled through, and walked out of the slot the opposite way it went in. Job done! So, turn the piece over:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/15-LocatingHoles.jpg)

As the holes weren't quite through, I used a pointy tool (I'm sure it used to be a screwdriver...) underneath, tap with a plastic hammer, and observe the pinhole that appears. Then, from the top side, insert point and give a sharp tap. The results are as above... The black thing is the sump gasket, and is being used to ensure I've left enough meat around the slots to fit the job...

Next up - score lines between each hole (just a reminder), then line up & clamp the work to the mill. Note I'm using extra clamps; after I've finished the cuts here, the lump will be in two pieces. As neither is supported underneath, each pair of clamps is holding one piece to the mill.

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/16-SeparationSetup.jpg)

Done!

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/17-Separated.jpg)

The gasket is sitting on what will be the 1st sump (Dad's). As you can see, plenty of material around the edges of the gasket to get a nice finish.

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/18-Separated2.jpg)

And now the 2nd sump (MY sump :D) I've not bothered cutting the remaining "woodruff" shape out yet, I'll do that when I come to use this bit of ali. I'm bored of all this slotting work... I'm sure you are too.

So, I suppose I'd better show what I'm making... Here's the steel prototype sump:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/19-SteelSump1.jpg)

The bronze coloured blobs are where a strip of tin has been brazed on. Pinched under the tin is that gauze; under which are some magnets, and a trough which carries the oil away. The pipe, seen in the lower right hand corner of the picture (at the front of the sump) is one of three oil outlets.

Here's the underside:
(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/20-SteelSump2.jpg)

It's not the best of pictures; but you can make out the trough, which has one visible outlet pointing towards the camera. On the other side of the trough is the second outlet (pipe with 90 degree bend); and almost invisible is the front outlet (that pipe), also with a 90 degree bend.

The aluminium version won't look quite like that; the three outlets will all appear on one face (the front), and will have been deep-bored through the billet.  Probably my next job is to start designing the structure; then - if this damn wax ever turns up - I'll get making a prototype...

The video I promised yesterday should - I hope - be along later this evening...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Dean W on February 13, 2010, 09:54:02 PM
This is quite a project, Ade, and quite interesting.  You had to jump through a few hoops to get that huge hunk
of al pared down.  Looks like it's going along well!  By the time you get done, you're going to be some kind of
"Lord of the Swarf".   

BTW, I checked out your clock in the pics of your earlier post.  It took 25 minutes, mister!  When everyone else
can see the time, you really are on the clock

: )

Keep up the good work.  Thanks for the pictures and write up.

Dean
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on February 14, 2010, 05:18:14 AM
This is quite a project, Ade, and quite interesting.  You had to jump through a few hoops to get that huge hunk
of al pared down.  Looks like it's going along well!  By the time you get done, you're going to be some kind of
"Lord of the Swarf".

Oh, I've got a LONG way to go before I can claim any titles that fancy... So far, I think I can probably manage Aluminium Apprentice - at best...

Quote
BTW, I checked out your clock in the pics of your earlier post.  It took 25 minutes, mister!  When everyone else
can see the time, you really are on the clock
: )

Aha, I see you spotted my deliberate mistake! (ahem) This is probably why I'm late whenever I have to go somewhere...

Thanks for your kind words  :thumbup:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: HS93 on February 14, 2010, 11:47:19 AM
are you putting finns on the bottom to help cooling ?

peter
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on February 15, 2010, 11:22:50 AM
Hi Peter,

I've certainly considered fins, but it's not yet cast in stone (or, indeed, aluminium...). The engine has what appears to be a very efficient oil-to-water cooler embedded in the "V", there's no separate airflow oil cooler; so it may not be necessary in the long run. However, if it turns out that fins would look good, then I'll probably do some :)

Now, there's no more metal carving progress, but I finally bullied Windows MovieMaker into working for long enough to create the damn video... Unfortunately, my choice of audio file means it's not available in Germany (!) - so if you're in Germany, send me a PM & I'll send you a link to a downloadable version.



Sorry it's a bit blurred, I think it's had a few too many post-processing steps...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: DMIOM on February 15, 2010, 11:44:12 AM
Nice one  :clap:   and a very suitable soundtrack - made you look a little like this  :ddb:

I know the application of "Feed rate over-ride" on my CNC - but now I've seen another version !

And I notice you carefully kept the clock out of shot on this clip - if that lot only took 2mins & 5 seconds then what were you doing for the other 20 or 25 minutes before - having a  :coffee: ?

Dave
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Bernd on February 15, 2010, 08:13:41 PM
Ade,

Nice video. I see your quite the fast worker.  :lol:

I've heard that sound track before. I thought it was an American thing. Can't place the name right now though.

Bernd
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on February 15, 2010, 08:49:11 PM
Dave - the clock is, quite accidentally honest, out of sight on the wall to the left of shot... But it's a good job it wasn't in view, as you'd be able to see the cuts then! (I edited out the bit where I attacked the last bit with a hacksaw, it was taking too long so I gave up I used the mill!

Bernd - the soundtrack is called "Yakkity Sax" by Boots Randolph, but it's probably better known both here & in the US as the theme to The Benny Hill Show: http://www.televisiontunes.com/Benny_Hill_Show.html Which is, of course, why I chose it - as most (all?) of his shows ended up with some speeded-up film.

Be warned, that link can waste hours of your day if you're not careful!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Bernd on February 16, 2010, 09:58:55 AM
Ade,

Thanks for the memories. They had the Benny Hill shown on over here for a short time. I realy loved that show. That song was also played on the radio over here back in the 60's and 70's. It all came back to me when I saw the name Boots Randolph.

Bernd
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Brass_Machine on February 16, 2010, 11:12:38 AM
...

I've heard that sound track before. I thought it was an American thing. Can't place the name right now though.

Bernd

Benny Hill maybe??

Eric
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on February 17, 2010, 06:46:51 PM
Not a lot new today... I'm making machinable wax as fast as I can go (~3kg tonight :)), so I can prototype the sump in 1:1 scale.

Fortunately, a decent amount of wax showed up today; which is lucky. In the picture, it's sitting inside the mould that - once I've dissolved lots of freezer bags in it - it will have to fill (to a depth of ~3", to account for shrinkage). That's a lot of wax... The bag holds 25kg, and cost just shy of £50 delivered:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/21-WaxMould.jpg) (http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/22-Drillbit.jpg)

And the other picture is the drillbit for drilling out the oil channels. It's hard to get a sense of scale for the thing - especially given the number of truly awesome builds we see on this site where, due to excellent surface finishes, what looks like quite a big engine in a photo turns out to be the size of a matchbox. So suffice it to say; the flutes run for some 600mm (over 2ft), then there's a spare couple of inches before the morse taper. It is a humongous drill bit! Only 5/8" diameter, though, so quite dainty with it...

It'll be a few days before I can test it, however, as the step pulley in the mill is away for some new bearings, so - pardon the pun - you'll have to bear [groan] with me.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: No1_sonuk on February 17, 2010, 07:58:35 PM
WOW!  That is a BIG drill bit.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Dean W on February 17, 2010, 09:07:37 PM
Well, all right, Ade, if you're not the "Lord of the Swarf", how about the "Benny Hill of the Bridgeport". 

I remember those shows here in the states.  Seemed like every show ended with a bunch of cops or hot young ladies chasing him around with Yakkity Sax as the cover music.

Keep up the good, fast work.

Dean
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: madjackghengis on February 27, 2010, 09:02:07 AM
Hi AdeV, I've run into that sort of problem before of a great deal on a huge piece of metal, and having to cut it with less than ideal tools.  I've got a couple of pieces of inch and three quarters mild steel I use for various projects, two pieces each about 150 Kg, and I found the fastest way to cut this is with what we call a "saw's all", which, if you are not familiar with it, basically an industrial strength jig saw which will handle a blade eight or ten inches long if necessary.  It works right nice on almost anything using wax based blade lubricant, and I've cut a whole lot of ali with it as well, as I have lots of half inch to two inch plate I've had to cut from time to time.  For the thick steel, I even use a coarse wood blade say about five or six teeth per inch, as it clears the swarf much faster than finer tooth counts.
     I've got to say, that's quite an ambitious project you've got going there, I could almost cry seeing that huge piece of aluminium cut up, but you can't make an omlet without cracking a few eggs.  I'm looking forward to the end result.
Mad Jack :headbang:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on February 27, 2010, 11:30:58 AM
Hi Mad Jack - that sounds like a ferocious piece of kit.... I'll have to look out for one  :D

I can't believe it's been 10 days since I did anything on this project, but obviously that's how long the wax interlude has taken.... Last night I finally finished pouring; the last bit being to fill the mould where the edges had shrunk away somewhat. So, today, this is what we start with:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/23-WaxPoured.jpg)

The thing on top just directs the pour down the edges, as required. As I'd hoped the block slipped out of the mould as sweet as you like. The only bummer is, a couple of the pieces of wood had some kind of plastic coating, which has partially got itself into the wax. As a result, I may not be able to do the "wings" portion of the sump to full width, in this wax version. Not to worry....

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/24-WaxBlock.jpg)

You can see where last night's pour has worked its way underneath the block, such is the extent of the shrinkage. The lines "drawn" on the wax have actually transferred from the mould - cool :)

So: Load it on the mill, lob the biggest cutter I have in (the 2" shell mill), and prepare to flatten each side:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/25-ReadyToFlatten.jpg)

The wedges underneath are just there to keep it roughly level, until I've got enough flat on one side to turn it over & do the other side.

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/26-Flattening.jpg)

Some time later:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/27-Flat.jpg)

The mould now contains the swarf that's come off the block. That'll melt down into new wax, one day...

Next up, mill one of the ends flat, so we have a reference side. This should be - pretty much - square with the bottom side, in this picture:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/28-StraightEdge.jpg)

As you can see, there's a lot of overhang. This is one big lump of wax... (approx. 18kg out of the mould; approx. 15kg at this stage). The edge being milled:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/29-StraightEdge2.jpg)

You can really take liberties with this stuff: That's a 0.040" climb cut going on, and it just takes it. I could probably have cut a lot deeper...

So, this is as far as I got today:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/30-FlatSquareEdge.jpg)

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/31-FlatSquareEdge2.jpg)

Full day in the workshop tomorrow, I should have that lump squared off completely & have made a start on the main cutting operations by tomorrow.

 :thumbup:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Dean W on February 27, 2010, 08:49:54 PM
It sure does look like it mills nice, Ade.  I'm enjoying this thread a lot, and even learning things, (how 'bout that!).

I wonder, when you collect all the shavings from the wax do you have to worry much about foreign matter?  Will it just melt down and have all the junk bits sink to the bottom, or do you have to do some kind of straining process?

Thanks!

Dean
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on February 28, 2010, 12:15:39 PM
Dean - I'm glad you're enjoying it; and heck, if I'm showing people new tricks already, well - it must be dumb luck....  :thumbup:

So, this morning's first job was to get the block on the mill ready to cut a second edge. I wanted it square with the first machined edge - no particular reason at this stage, except that it's good practice. So, I used an edge finder along the first edge to get it dead square with the mill. Don't ask me why I used an edge finder - I thought I was being clever. Turns out I was just lucky - trying to line the next edge up with the same method just took ages & drove me spare; so I ended up using a dial indicator, like I should have done this time!

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/32-LiningUp.jpg)
(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/33-LiningUp.jpg)

Once squared up, I lined up with one of my marking out lines (+ a bit of cock-up space), and started cutting. This next shot should look familiar....:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/34-CuttingToSize.jpg)

Easy come, easy go; that's when I found the crack in the wax (see the Wax thread). But worse still, when I came to put the dial indicator into the chuck, to dial the other side of the block in - nightmare; the drawbar simply wouldn't tighten the chuck up! It didn't matter how murder tight I went, there was about 1/16th vertical play in the chuck.  :scratch: So, a small diversion. As the drawbar was, for some reason, suddenly too long for the mill (possibly, I lost a washer somewhere; I've had the drawbar out a few times due to one of the threads getting chewed up), I needed a washer. Or, to put that another way, it's time to play on the lathe!

Chucked up a piece of 2" ali I happened to have cut off to a respectable length. Centre drilled, drilled progressively to 1/2" (fits over the drawbar nicely), then turned down the outer diameter to around 0.875" (about the same size as the drawbar head):

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/35-DrawbarRepair-01.jpg)

Then, using my special "parting off" tool, cut the spacer away from the parent:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/36-DrawbarRepair-02.jpg)


And presto, a new drawbar spacer:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/37-DrawbarRepair-03.jpg)

Worked a treat  :)

So, finally, I could dial the block in & finish the last bit of squaring up:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/38-IndicatingIn.jpg)


Next job (which starts now): Finding a reference point & drilling some holes....
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on February 28, 2010, 05:22:45 PM
Right, where were we?

OK - the block is now on the mill, and dialled in true. First job, then, is to measure the engine up. I've decided to start with the fixing holes, as they're easy:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/39-MeasureUp.jpg)

There's 28 of them all told - 10 per side and 4 each on the front & end. I have to switch to metric now, this being a German engine. I can use the fact that they'd probably not use TOO many odd measures. So having located the first hole at 48mm in, the second at 57.5mm further along  :scratch: I wasn't wrong, though, it really was 57.5mm...

So, the moment of truth.... I've indicated in the corner, added 50% of the excess space (about 4mm all round), used the DRO to navigate to the first hole position, and am about to drill...

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/40-FirstCut.jpg)

Note the real-life crap-o-cad, complete with co-ordinate readout :D Although I'm not relying on the layout drawn on the wax itself, it's gratifying to note that the hole is within the boundary of the splodge I drew on the the wax, through the gasket.

So, a little later on:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/41-HolesDone.jpg)

All holes (even the ones under the clamps which, you may have noted have moved (doh!)... I had to move the left-hand one again before I finished for the day...

Now, look back at the bottom of engine picture: There's 9 holes near the rim of the sump - 4 at the top, 5 on the bottom. These are the oil drains from the heads, and in use have oil pouring out of them (apparently). In the original sump, there were two compartments; the head oil went to the bottom compartment, through those holes; the oil underneath the con-rods went a different way. Although all of the oil in this sump is heading to the same place, I'll try to keep them as separate as possible. So; I decided to cut the start of a channel into the sump, at each hole. This will help guide the oil into the drains, without letting it all splash about under the con-rods.

So, using the nearest end mill I have to 18mm (a 3/4"!  :clap:), I plunged 18mm at each place. The sump gasket could then be fitted to the block to check for alignment and location of the holes. And, I'm well chuffed to say, they're all in the right place!

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/42-FirstOpsFinished.jpg)

You'll notice I've also milled out a shallow pocket in the centre; this is where the main sump will slope down towards the drain holes.


So, there you go. Finally, I'm making engineering swarf, instead of just parting off swarf... And it feels good!  :headbang:

Tomorrow: Mostly measuring and planning I suspect. I need to make a jig so I can tell how far out of the bottom of the engine the con-rods protrude at their lowest point, to make absolutely sure I build enough clearance in (but, at the same time, I want as little clearance as possible so I can keep the profile of the sump as low as possible; and, hence, the weight).
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 01, 2010, 04:47:08 PM
OK, some more progress today.... First job was to work out the clearances for the conrods. So, using a wax offcut, I roughly milled out a segment - with many trial fits to the engine. Eventually, the hole was big enough:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/43-FindingConrodClearance.jpg)

This was then measured, and a second piece marked out & cut with a bandsaw, just to verify that my measurements were, in fact, sound:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/44-ConrodClearances.jpg)
(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/45-ConrodClearancesTest.jpg)

That white tape is holding the wax together; it broke at a boundary between two pours... So far, the main block is behaving itself very well, which is a relief.

So.. clearances sorted out, it was time to get milling. The angle plate (which is needed later) is mounted & squared up first, then the block is mounted & squared on the angle plate. Thus:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/46-MountedOnAngleplate.jpg)

In the pic, I'm about to locate my reference point (the top right-hand corner, as you look at the picture), from which all subsequent measurements and co-ordinates are taken. So, about an hour later (I was being cautious....):

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/47-ConrodPocketsMilled.jpg)

They're milled 25mm deep, 75mm wide as required. The bits in between each pocket are where the bearing journals live, and will be left there for strength. So now it's time to mill out the first angled bit. Thus, it's time to brush off my old Trig knowledge, and get head scratching  :scratch: :scratch: :scratch:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/51-Trig.jpg)

Most of you will probably be immediately familiar with all of that. The only bit I'll explain (just in case, if by the remotest chance, my old school Maths teacher ever sees this: Thanks Mr Parry!) is SOHCAHTOA (pronounced "soccah toe ah"). It means, simply: Sine=Opposite over Hypotenuse, Cosine = Adjacent over Hypotenuse, Tangent = Opposite over Adjacent; I've always found it to be a dead handy aide memoire when messing around with triangles.

So, on with the show. 33.7 degrees the doctor called for, so we set up the angle plate:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/48-FirstAngleSetup.jpg)
The small spanner there is used to loosen & tighten the angle plate bolts. Did I mention I'm doing this in miniature? That spanner is just 4" long...  :lol:

So, after a little while:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/49-FirstAngleCut.jpg)

The actual cutting operation was done largely by look & feel; when I thought the remaining lip looked "about right", I stopped cutting. The coordinates have been noted, so when I come to do the real aluminium sump, I should just be able to crack right on into it, without worrying about where to start & stop cuts.

Last job for today was to flip the piece over and cut the other angle. About 40 minutes of the next hour were spent setting up:

After that, the cut went on nice & easy. Because I used the same reference point, all my X-axis numbers were the same (with the sign reversed; so positive instead of negative); the Y-axis was also mirrored, but somewhat differently... In fact, I ended up with slightly different offsets; but I think I got the first ones in slightly the wrong place, as there's more of a lip on the first cuts compared to the second.

So, as it stands now:
(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/50-SecondAngleCut.jpg)

Next job: Figure out where the channels for each main oil drain (the holes cut yesterday) are going to go, and how deep they need to go to pick up the main oil channels. And, speaking of which, the time draws ever closer when I'm going to have to break out that big drill.......


Watch this space  :dremel:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: CrewCab on March 01, 2010, 05:56:56 PM
Looking good Ade  :thumbup: .......... the way it's going you could have gone straight to the ali and dispensed with the wax ......... though perhaps that may change when you break out the big drill  :dremel: ............. good luck and keep posting  :beer:

CC
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Dean W on March 01, 2010, 08:11:51 PM
Watching..  Watching.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Brass_Machine on March 01, 2010, 08:21:05 PM
Pretty cool. Nice skills too!

Eric
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Bernd on March 01, 2010, 09:18:03 PM
Pretty darn good for 3 hours of work, or did you reset that red clock every time you took a picture?  :lol:

I'm impressed with your work. Got a bit of an idea. Pour molding plaster around that piece of wax. Burn out the wax and make an investment casting that can be used as a mold for making many. Never know who else might want one.

Bernd
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Darren on March 02, 2010, 03:47:21 AM
Maths... Arggg .... I'm sure we did it and I got the pass .. but I have no idea what you are on about  :doh:

Looking good there ....  :clap:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 02, 2010, 03:59:30 AM
Maths... Arggg .... I'm sure we did it and I got the pass .. but I have no idea what you are on about  :doh:

Looking good there ....  :clap:

Me too!

I seem to remember sinophyp, cosadip, tanopadge.........  :thumbup:


Ade..... That`s looking very good!  :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: andyf on March 02, 2010, 04:13:16 AM
I too am a bit of a duffer when it comes to trig  :scratch: :scratch:. Trouble was that my mother tried to drum the elements into me before we did it at school, and she used different 1920's notation - base, perpendicular and hypotenuse. Some Boys Have Curly Brown Hair Till Painted Black had something to do with it, but only served to confuse me when we were taught something different at school.

Now, I do it the easy way, using the triangle calculators on here (some of the others can also come in useful):

http://www.cleavebooks.co.uk/scol/index.htm

Andy
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 02, 2010, 05:20:14 AM
Thanks chaps, for your kind words, they are much appreciated...

CrewCab - I wouldn't have dared go straight for the Ali, although as you say, these first operations have gone OK so far. Of course, it helps that I can abuse the wax mercilessly - most of the cuts I've taken have been full depth & full width right from the get go; obviously, I won't be able to push the aluminium that hard. On the other hand, the aluminium shouldn't bulge under clamping pressure, which ought to make dialling in a damn sight easier...

Bernd - Not such a bad idea... but I think, with all the hassles of casting (making the mould bigger to account for shrinkage, actually doing the casting, and so on) I think I'll stick to making them out of billet. For whatever reason, add the word "billet" to anyting in the UK & suddenly it gets a whole lot more expensive.... I'm definitely considering making these for sale, provided I can get the machining time down to reasonable levels (which will almost certainly involve making jigs -  :proj:) in the near future.

Maths & trig - if you want, I'm happy to do a detailed write-up on the maths of setting your angles; but it's all high school stuff, I ran out of maths ability about 1/2 way through my A-levels (integration.... uck). Let me know if you do...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Bernd on March 02, 2010, 11:27:39 AM
Well Ade,

As I said it was just a thought. Yes, your right, add the word "billet" and the price automatically goes up. Same over here in the states. I usally take a piece of 1/4" square aluminum and tell them this is also a billet, although a small one.  :lol:

Perhaps looking into CNCing the mill would help increase production time. Just things to consider. You never know.

Good luck when you get to the real thing.

Bernd
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 02, 2010, 11:58:08 AM
Bernd - it was a good thought too, and I'm always up for new ideas even if I don't pursue them straight away (or, indeed, at all! I'm notorious for having many more projects on the go than I could possibly have the time, money or inclination to complete...

Apparently, "billet" just means "metal bar": Since bars can be square, rectancular or round, then there's no problem with describing a squared up offcut as billet :)

Interesting explanation here: http://www.motorcyclecruiser.com/tech/term_billet_explained/index.html

Agreed about CNC... if I sell a couple, I'd probably earn enough to buy a CNC machine. Ironically, I could then charge even more money, because now it would be "CNC cut from billet"! It's a crazy old world....


1/2hr to shop time....
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: DMIOM on March 02, 2010, 01:06:08 PM
.....Perhaps looking into CNCing the mill would help increase production time. Just things to consider. You never know........Bernd

True, you never know - it migt even decrease production time ::)

...... Ironically, I could then charge even more money, because now it would be "CNC cut from billet"! It's a crazy old world....

Even better when (NOT if) you can describe it as race or even championship winning !  :thumbup:

Dave
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 02, 2010, 04:06:46 PM
Dave, I do hope so... I may have to persuade the old man to turn the keys over to me, if he doesn't drive fast enough this year!  :lol:

Anyway... no machining done tonight, I spent ages scratching my head wondering how I was going to mill the channels from the head drains down into the collection pipes. I'd have liked to give them nice curves and a smooth descent into the pipes, but that's not going to be possible on a manual machine. So instead, I figured I'd mill them level, and maybe 20mm deep,to the edge of the current slope into the sump; then slope them at a constant angle so they intersect with the side of the collection pipe.

Hopefully, the following semi-crap-o-cad will make this clearer:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/52-OilwayPlan.jpg)

SO, each line with an angle beside it will be milled with the sump set flat; I'll then re-set at the required angles to mill first the top 5 drains down to the collection tubes (B and C), then rotate 180 & mill the 4 channels into tubes A and C.

I've chosen to pick the holes up in the order they're in, so I don't have to mill a channel across the top of any tube. This means I can keep the overall depth of the sump to around 50mm. It also means I don't have to cut any of the ribs, although the support at either end of the 3rd rib will be fairly minimal.

The final operations will be to put a bit of a slope on the bottom of each gallery to angle towards the pickup.


So.... tomorrow will involve the rotary table. I'd better re-assemble it, I guess!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Dean W on March 02, 2010, 11:16:22 PM
Ade, you might as well go all the way when you sell these and say "Aircraft Grade Aluminum".   It's possible that this could actually be aircraft grade.  I know, "Billet" is the hot term for marketing, just like other terms that don't make sense, like "turbo".  (There is no turbo in my desktop computer, but it says turbo on the disc drive door.)

Billet is foundry metal put into a basic unfinished or semi finished shape.  It's what extruder plants and finishing foundries buy to form finished shapes, like tubing, shafts, finished square or rectangles, like what you buy at the metal yard.  Also, forging foundries use it, since there is no sense in buying finished metal  just to run it through a stamp forge and turn it into a completely different finished metal shape.

I know!  Call it CNC Billet Aricraft Aluminum. 

Just kidding.  You won't have any trouble selling a good product that someone wants, what ever you call it.

I'm still watching and enjoying your project.  Thanks for all the pics you've put up for us!

Dean
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 03, 2010, 04:10:18 PM
Hi Dean - So... we have a "(Potential) Championship Winning Aircraft Aluminium Alloy Billet CNC Dry Sump" :D

Sounds good to me, I know I'd pay £££'s for one!  :lol:

I also realised I didn't answer your question about contaminants in the wax: To answer that now, I suspect the metal bits will sink, and the "floor dirt" and sawdust should float, so by skimming the top & bottom off any ingot, one should (in theory) be left with plain wax. However, I'm not sure what influence any cutting oil/WD40 will have.... as there's bound to be some of that in with my wax swarf, we'll find out when I come to re-melt some...

Anyway, on with the show. Didn't achieve a massive amount today... had to make some T-nuts for the rotary table first. Well, when I say some T-nuts, I mean one giant one:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/53-GiantTNut.jpg)

I had this crazy idea that, with one big T-nut sticking out of the rotab on each side, I could use the excess material to clamp the sump to the table. In the event, the T-nut wasn't quite long enough for that idea (oops), and the clamping was very sub-optimal. I will have to think of a better solution for the real deal. Fortunately, this being wax, it can tolerate being fairly lightly clamped, as the cutting forces are quite low.

Quote
[EDIT] I forgot to include in today's update, yet another plug for these little fellas:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/ripper.jpg)

I'd been faffing about with an old 3/4" carbide cutter milling the T-nut to size, and it was taking ages. The cutter wouldn't stand any more than 10 thou per pass, at about 150mm/min (so that's what, about 6"/min). As I've now got a glut of those 6mm rippas, I figured - what the hell, let's push one to death & see what happens. Well, it took 50 thou deep cuts, full width, at 500mm/min (nearly 2ft/minute), and survived! I maybe could have pushed it harder, but that was near enough for me. So, if you don't have any rippa cutters in your arsenal, I can very very very highly recommend them for rapid metal removal.  :thumbup: [/EDIT]

The rotary table is a bit of a pain TBH, it's extremely heavy, and doesn't (currently) have any means of locking the table down. I will need to fix that before I make the aluminium sump...

Anyway, with the piece loaded up, the first light cut is taken to verify the angle (inconveniently milling away the line I'd drawn):

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/54-FirstAngledCut.jpg)

It looked good, so I finished that cut, then all the others. It's not really obvious from the picture - due to the artistic (and completely accidental) mood lighting - that the cut is, in fact, in the X-axis direction.

So anyway, a few twists & turns later:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/55-AngledTroughsDone.jpg)

All of those were measured & cut by eye, so they could be anywhere... but they're all near enough I think. Having dispensed with the rotab & returned to just the angle plate, Mr Accuracy has been allowed back into the room. I've now worked out the angles for the troughs down into the drain holes, but haven't cut them yet (it got too late). That's tomorrow sorted, then.... and once I've cut the troughs out, it's D-Day. Drill day, that is...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Rob.Wilson on March 03, 2010, 06:44:58 PM
This is one of the coolest post i have ever seen , Great stuff AdeV , I like the wax idea  :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

Cheers Rob
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Darren on March 03, 2010, 06:46:44 PM
I can see you are going to be pleased with you alloy sump already Adev  :clap: :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Dean W on March 04, 2010, 01:29:38 AM
Hi Dean - So... we have a "(Potential) Championship Winning Aircraft Aluminium Alloy Billet CNC Dry Sump" :D

Sounds good to me, I know I'd pay £££'s for one!  :lol:



You missed your calling, Ade.  You should be in marketing, on Wall St. 


Thanks for the reply on the wax shavings.  I'll watch for the remelt results.
More good progress today on your oil pan (sump).  Nice dramatic lighting.  Good results.

Dean
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 04, 2010, 05:57:50 PM
Rob - thank you! Although I have a long way to go before I'm anywhere near your quality of workmanship. But I hope to get there one day...

Darren - yep, I reckon so. And after today's update, even more so I think.

Dean - ugh, marketing! Don't...


Now.... on with the show. When we left the action yesterday, I'd got the sump back on the angle plate, ready to set to to mill the lead-ins to the troughs. I decided to start with the steepest angle, some 52 degrees:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/56-TroughToDrainsOops.jpg)

Argh! First setback of the night, I can't get the quill low enough to cut the slot. Damn... have to find a long endmill from somewhere, or maybe I could mount it in a drill chuck. Not ideal, but I decided I couldn't be faffed with it. So...

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/57-DrainTroughs.jpg)

I re-set it flat, and milled out the endpoints for the drain holes.


And now.........




The moment you've all been waiting for........




It's........




D-DAY!!!

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/58-DDay.jpg)

The angle plate is moved to the edge of the table, and the part mounted atop it. However, it's too low down - there's not enough vertical travel to get the sump high enough on just the angle plate, so it's also sat on top of most of my collection of parallels - which are each 1/2" thick, plus or minus a gnat's cock. This is easily the scariest work-holding I've done so far. The feeler gauges stuck out of the wax (middle bottom of the pic) are to try to stop the huge expansion crack from closing up under the clamp & cracking. It wasn't 100% successful (I've lost a chunk from underneath), but that's not too bad as I will be shedding over 1" from the bottom of this piece before I'm finished anyway.

So.... using the drill itself to line the piece up (can't get any DTIs in there), I then swap the drill out for a 16mm end mill. Using the end mill, I locate the start of each hole, and mill it as deep as I can. These will be used to hold the drill stable (the drill waggles about quite alarmingly if run in mid-air).

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/59-HolesMilled.jpg)

And now, the bad news: To get the sump far enough away from the mill head to actually get the drill bit in behind it, I had to move the angle plate so it's literally clinging on to the edge of the table for dear life: The t-slots I'm using are outboard of the oil drain (so in the last inch of table), and I'm using the two right-most slots on the angle plate to hold it on. And even that's not enough, I've got to have the sump literally hanging off the end of the angle plate... If the last setup was scary, this one is doubly so. How that wax is not snapping under it's own weight, I do not know:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/60-ScarySetup.jpg)

Again, the drill is being used to align the job. It took me 45 mins to get to this point. Here's another angle of the same thing, which better reveals the true horror:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/61-TheFullHorror.jpg)

I even had to take the clock off the wall, the sump gets that close. I had a total of about 2cms to spare...

And then, disaster:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/62-****.jpg)

It was STILL not far enough over! Aaargh! More manoevering. At least I knew what to do this time, and had the piece moved really quickly. So..... begin the first cut. It's just like drilling a normal hole, really, except the "peck" bit takes a lot longer, as you're feeding in & out on the X-axis. Thank goodness for power feed!

Starting with the shortest hole, after only just 15 minutes I was rewarded with my first breakthrough:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/63-Breakthrough.jpg)





Next up, the LONG hole.... how would it go? See for yourself:



(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/64-LongestHole.jpg)

:ddb: :D :)  :ddb: :D :)  :ddb: :D :)  :ddb: :D :)  :ddb:

That tip is some 470mm deep in the work piece, and it's absolutely spot on target. To say I was chuffed would be a minor understatement. I confess, I actually danced a small jig, and may even have punched the air.

I was going to stop at this point, & finish tomorrow; but despite the late hour, I pressed on because I didn't want to leave the sump hanging over the edge like that...

So, one more hole, which was nearly a disaster - the drill was just touching the clamp, making a nasty clattering - so I had to move the clamp without moving the sump! Grr! Fortunately, all went well & the hole was completed without incident.

And so, the final photo of the night:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/65-Phew.jpg)

Although only 4mm apart, and 16mm in diamater (approximately), none of the holes have walked into each other, and they've all landed exactly where they should have done, and they're all exactly the right depth.

It's 11pm, I've not eaten in 12 hours, I'm knackered, and probably the happiest person in the UK right now :)


Until tomorrow.... (while the mill is canted over, I think I'll do a practice drill hole in aluminium, to see how that goes).
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Darren on March 04, 2010, 06:59:42 PM
I once saw a chap tightrope walking several 1000 feet up across two rock peaks. No safety rope or net ... and holding no balance bar


Wasn't you by any chance was it?

You jammy bugger ... well done that was quite something to see  :clap: :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Dean W on March 05, 2010, 01:20:03 AM
Ade, I'm so much enjoying your show.   Just capital watching you work on this.  Every minute of it.
Keep up the great job, (and take the time to relish your accomplishments, too, punching the air, or doing a happy dance.  You know.).

Really a good thread.

Dean
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 05, 2010, 03:43:05 AM
Ade,
In an earlier life, I drilled holes for a living..... Mostly in steel.

Many of mine would be around your size & depth. Intersecting etc, where necessary. Using the appropriate sized machinery.

I`m now sitting here, with the biggest grin on my face...... Knowing full well what you have achieved, with only what you`ve got!  :thumbup:

Blummin well done mate!  :D

David D
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: NickG on March 05, 2010, 03:44:08 AM
Ade,

this is just unbelievable - if the pictures weren't there I don't think I'd believe it!  :lol:

Extremely impressive stuff though, keep up the good work, I think everbody is watching this!

Nick

Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Darren on March 05, 2010, 04:27:36 AM
Can I ask why three holes and not just the one?
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 05, 2010, 04:58:36 AM
Thanks lads, for all your encouragement and praise - if it weren't for this site, I probably wouldn't even be attempting this.... and if I were I'd barely have a clue what I was doing.

One thing.... so far, this is only in wax, which is really rather soft & easy to drill/mill.... whilst I don't have any particular worries with the aluminium, I do know it'll take longer. And Stilldrillin' (David) - I would really baulk at having to do this in steel! I think the mill would fall over with the weight!

Darren - there are three holes because there are three (separate) oil pumps - all in one unit, but each oil stream doesn't meet the other. The idea is, if one pump ends up sucking all the oil away & is pulling on air, it doesn't affect the other two, which might still have oil to deal with. At least, I assume that's the theory...

I'm not sure how much oil is actually going to be coming down these pipes; but the current sump has 5/8" ID fittings, and three outlets, so I'm assuming the hole size is good for the oil volume. Of course, if the engine blows the sump off the first time it's used in anger, we'll know that bigger holes are needed!  :lol:

I also need to come up with a way of turning the holes through 90 degrees, so they exit from the side of the sump instead of the front. I think a bolt-on block with some kind of press-fit tube fittings will be called for. At least I won't need the long drill for that one!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 05, 2010, 02:20:50 PM
Just a quick update, I did a trial hole in aluminium today. Using the first "woodruff" piece I cut some 20 days ago (blimey!), I bandsawed a corner off, mounted it in the same way I had the sump yesterday (and yes, I can clamp it much more firmly, which is a big relief!), milled a flat spot, then plunge milled (horizontally, feels weird) a 16mm starter hole for the drill bit.

That done, I proceeded to drill... after the first 60-70mm, it was 10mm of cut, withdraw clean & lubricate the bit, back in, 10mm, rinse & repeat. All the way to 485mm. It took a LONG time - thank goodness for power feed! - but, we got to the bottom of the hole without incident, no nasty noises, and no broken drill bits.

Special swarf shot for those who like such things... :) :
(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/66-485mmInAluminium.jpg)

Incidentally, I'm using WD40 as my coolant. As I'm being told by every man & his dog that paraffin is a brilliant Aluminium cutting fluid, I thought I'd try some out, to see if I could get more than 10mm depth of cut. Well, I couldn't, and the drill bit squeaked worse than an angry mouse.... so, back to the WD40 for me. I'll try the paraffin again when I'm making more open cuts.

So... how good was the hole? Full of confidence, I predicted its end point & drew it on the ali:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/67-XMarksTheSpot.jpg)






Aaaargh! Missed!:
(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/68-MissedOops.jpg)

WTF, etc.?  :scratch:  :smart:  Bugger..... when I measured how far across the hole is, I used calipers & measured from the edge; and forgot to add in the cutter width. Eejit. So, added 8mm, and drilled again. Much better.... It's about 2mm off target horizontally (which means vertically when I drilled it; so the drill was pointing up by 2mm over 485mm... possible I suppose, though the wax holes seemed to be more accurate than that) and 1mm out vertically - which of course was horizontal when I measured it. That's entirely possible - I used a ruler to check it, not a caliper or micrometer...

Upshot is, I'm happy enough. That drillbit should do the 3 holes I need of it with ease, and given how accurate it's cut even with my real agricultural setup methods, it should do much better when I come to do the real thing.

Right, back to the mill for another hour or so...  :thumbup:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Rob.Wilson on March 05, 2010, 04:00:12 PM
 AdeV   :bugeye: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: that is some drill bit , well done ,you have some balls  :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:
Looking forward to the next instalment .

Cheers Rob

Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 05, 2010, 04:13:02 PM
Thanks Rob - must admit, I was puckering a few times during that drill, especially towards the end...

Only a brief update tonight; milled the slopes into the bottom of each pocket, so there's some kind of gradient for the oil to follow. I have to be careful to leave enough material to not break through into the adjacent drain holes (otherwise I'll have to cut & cover). Managed it, although Mr Accuracy stormed off after I accidentally dropped the metric calipers (buggerit, now I need a replacement).... so some of the cuts are too deep, and some are just plain wrong... Come the real thing, I'll probably mill the slopes in before I drill the holes, while I'm doing the side slopes.

I also made a bit of a path for the head drains; I need to mill those deeper, however, got to figure that out. I also need to mill a bit of an angle on the front & back portions; although there's not a lot going on there, there's enough to warrant a bit of a drain... I was going to do it tonight, but I've got to spin the angle plate around, and that's a ball-ache of a job. So it'll get done tomorrow...

Current state of play (it looks a lot better in the photo than it does in real life...):
(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/69-SlopingBottom.jpg)

As you can see, I've accidentally bumped a couple of the ribs with an end mill. One day, I might actually learn which way to turn the handwheels.  :doh:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: DMIOM on March 05, 2010, 06:01:26 PM
Real top-banana for your "lets get it done" !

......As you can see, I've accidentally bumped a couple of the ribs with an end mill. One day, I might actually learn which way to turn the handwheels.doh:
      Just melt her down and start again !

and  :nrocks: - from this to George's stunning micro-engines ....

Dave
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: jim on March 06, 2010, 01:33:31 PM
this gets better every time!

i'm really looking forward to the ally one!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 06, 2010, 06:09:56 PM
Well, here we are again.... a straight 10 hours at the mill today, and I'm bushed. I did get a fair bit done, though, so for those of you on dial-up connections, I apologise in advance for the 10 new pictures which will take ages to download...

Dave - hmmm, melt it down? Shall I? Let me think about that for a moment...  :lol:

Jim - I can empathise with that, I'm looking forward to it myself. But I'm really glad I did this wax one, it's taught me loads - both about machining in general, and the manoeuvres I'll have to make with the ali sump too. I know I sound like a broken record, but I can really recommend this wax stuff for try-out type machining.


Anyway, on with today's fun & games. First job was to bring the height of the wax block down to dimension. Originally, I was going for a 2.5" deep sump; but I've managed to fit the whole thing into just 2". Which is great (it's going to lead to a scandalous waste of aluminium, though, I will have to face off a full 0.5" from the big piece - about 20% of it), means the weight comes down and so on.

So, here we are about half way into the job:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/70-DownsizeHeight.jpg)

Notice the chipping & cracking in the lower right corner; that's where the expansion crack is. Typical, it's just in the main block.... Never mind, it's still going to get nailed later on.

So, having faced the block down to 50.8mm, what next? I decided I'm fed up with having to add my "spare material" dimensions every time I dial the piece in... it's already led to one cockup - the tubes and the slots which the tubes end in are all ~4mm out of position, because I forgot to add the 4mm "spare material" measurement a couple of days ago.

So, obviously the first job is to mill the nice rounded edges - 35mm radius. Out with the rotary table, & find it's centre point. It's all a bit rough & ready... I used the quill to get it within 0.5mm of true. No dial indicators here! Once the rotab was about right & bolted down, I loaded the sump on, and put the centre of the theoretical 35mm circle, and clamp down. Now that was a palaver.... I think I'll need help when it comes to the ali version... Finally got it all lined up, angled up, etc:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/71-SetupRotab.jpg)

Cut (took maybe 1 minute). Done.

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/72-MillRadius.jpg)

Rinse & repeat for the other corner. Managed to start turning the rotary table the wrong way on BOTH radiuses. The second time, I carefully worked out that I needed to turn the wheel clockwise - then turned it anti-clock as soon as the cutter was in play  :doh: What an eejit.

Aaaanyway. Dump the rotab, re-set the sump straight & true on the table (sitting on some parallels, so I can mill to full depth), and dimension the sides:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/73-CutSidesToDimension.jpg)

While it was there & dialled in, I drilled the holes the rest of the way through the wax, so I could do a trial fit on the engine. I also cut & dimensioned up the front & back of the sump; so now it's the correct size all round (except the tabs).

Here it is on the engine, at last! The exhausts are in place to make sure there's clearance room (there will be, when the side is milled to an angle):

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/74-TrialFit.jpg)


Notice the various calculations, which I wrote on the piece itself. At least I don't lose them that way (until, that is, I come to mill the material away!).


So... it all fits! The drill holes are good, at any rate, and it sits flat on the engine, so the rods don't seem to be interfering. Tomorrow, I'll take the plugs out of the engine, put the sump in place, and rotate the engine through a complete 360, to make sure none of the parts touch anywhere.

Back to the mill, and it's time to slope the outside. Here I'm checking the deepest hole (the depths got a bit random for some reason), to make sure I don't break into it.

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/75-CheckDepth.jpg)

This depth then gives me the angles for both sides (22.6 and 13.2 degrees respectively). Milled the first side, flipped the sump around, and problem! Can't get the clamps to grip, they slide off the sloped bit, and the remaining flat parts are off the edge of the angle plate... So I had to mill a flat edge, where the bolts go (which had to be done anyway, but I'd planned it for later). Now I had somewhere to clamp, so on with the second cut. Here it is in progress:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/76-MillBottom.jpg)

At this point, the pucker factor is turned all the way up to 11.... Much earlier on in the "build", you may recall I cut a 2mm deep "pocket" in the centre of the sump. Whilst this proved very useful for ensuring I wasn't wildly off-target with my other measurements, now it's causing problems: Because underneath that sump, the only bit that's actually touching the angle plate, is the part under the clamps! That 14mm wide by 16mm deep strip, is taking both the entire weight of the sump, and the machining operations! Pucker? I certainly did.

But, fair play, despite the fact I'd actually cracked the wax earlier (too much clamping while the expansion crack was still in play), it all held, and we got to the end with no soiling in evidence:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/77-UndersideDone.jpg)

That picture shows just how little gripping room there was; the wooden spreaders are about the same width as the flatted section. After that photo, I flattened the edge on the other side the same.

So, close of play today:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/78-TopsideDone.jpg)

Looks the same as yesterday on that side!  :lol:

Tomorrow, I hope to finish off the front end (most of that lump on the front will be cut off, and a bolt-on block added to turn the oil pipes through 90o.

One last bonus photo, for the album:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/79-Ooooh.jpg)

I love this wax stuff  :D
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Darren on March 06, 2010, 06:20:23 PM
WOW  :jaw:

But won't the exhaust melt it ....  :lol:

You are doing a grand job and it's looking cool already  :bow:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Dean W on March 07, 2010, 12:11:31 AM
More great progress today, Ade.
That wax must be much tougher than it looks after all the setups and "hanging off the edge"
that it's been through. 
Neat final shot in this thread...  A see-through sump!

Dean
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: andyf on March 07, 2010, 03:38:38 AM
An idea which is probably daft: would it be possible, having drilled the horizontal holes to length, to push a little neobdi nenobdym rare earth magnet to the end with one pole upwards. Then use a compass as far away as you can get it on the top surface and draw intersecting lines to check that the drill hasn't veered substantally off course. Attaching the magnet to a wooden dowel would mean it could be extracted without tipping the billet on end.

Like I said, it's probably a silly idea, but you could try it out half way along the trial hole you drilled in the monster Woodruff key, to see how precisely a vertical hole can be positioned without any dead reckoning.

Andy



Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: jim on March 07, 2010, 05:20:53 AM
what are you going to do with the wax one when its finished?

i wouldn't be able to melt that work of art down!!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 07, 2010, 05:31:44 AM
Thanks again folks, it's always nice to know people are following along & appreciating.

Darren - I don't think the exhausts will get quite that hot... at least, I hope not! That said, the rest of the engine is aluminium, so it should be OK.

Dean - It's got a little bit of flexibility in it, which helps I think. Not a huge amount mind, as it will fracture quite easily. Watching the whole thing bounce when taking a slightly too-deep cut was a bit alarming, though!

Andy - Interesting idea about the magnet, but aluminium does strange things to magnets. If you've got a piece (sheet is ideal) and a neo magnet, do the following: Set the ali sheet up just off the vertical (say, 85o), and slide the magnet down it.... That said, I don't know if your idea would work or not; I'll have to find a compass & give it a try.

Jim - I plan to keep it for posterity - especially if it ends up as the prototype for a lot of sumps :) However, I've got bags (literally) of swarf to melt down for future projects, so no worries on that score...

Right... back to the workshop...  :whip:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: John Stevenson on March 07, 2010, 06:02:06 AM
Cast a new sump from it using the lost wax process.

John S.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: DMIOM on March 07, 2010, 06:17:44 AM
......Darren - I don't think the exhausts will get quite that hot... at least, I hope not! That said, the rest of the engine is aluminium, so it should be OK.....

Ade - what Darren was referring to, and I was just about to post the same message but Darren beat me to it ..... we were wondering if the exhausts would melt the one you showed - i.e. the wax one !   :doh:

Dave
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: andyf on March 07, 2010, 09:39:27 AM

Andy - Interesting idea about the magnet, but aluminium does strange things to magnets. If you've got a piece (sheet is ideal) and a neo magnet, do the following: Set the ali sheet up just off the vertical (say, 85o), and slide the magnet down it.... That said, I don't know if your idea would work or not; I'll have to find a compass & give it a try.

That's because the magnet is moving in relation to the aluminium, Ade, and thus setting up eddy currents which gerte a magnetic field which oppose the magnet's movement - Lenz's Law comes into it, I think. If the magnet is stationary, the problem shouldn't arise. But it was only one of my more harebrained ideas, and probably wouldn't work....

Andy
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: CrewCab on March 07, 2010, 11:00:35 AM
Brilliant Ade ............ brave man for sure  :thumbup: ........... really coming along now, good luck.

CC
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 07, 2010, 01:45:28 PM
John S - That option disappeared today (see below). I'll still keep it I think, it'll be a nice memento at the very least.

Dave (and Darren) - Doh! Clearly, my irony detector was misfiring  :hammer: this morning..... oops! Maybe If I cover it in aluminium foil, the heat deflection would be enough?  :scratch:

Andy - It's still an interesting idea.... I've not owned a compass for nearly 20 years now (since I left the Scouts), but I'm sure my local tool shop will have some half-crock one I can buy for a few pence.... if I get chance this week, I'll do it.

CC - Many thanks :) It's been an adventure....


Right.... on with today's little update; and it is quite a short update, there's lots of thinking time been done, and more to come, before the tools come out to play again...

So, the first thing I did was whizz most of that big lump off the front. The extra clamp in the picture is shown because part of the front snapped off (at a pour interface):

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/80-MillFrontBlockAway.jpg)

Now, the plan was to make a separate block which will bolt/screw on the front of those three holes, turning them through 90 degrees. Unfortunately, there's simply not enough meat around the holes to guarantee a good seal. Worse than that, There's not enough space front-to-back to include all three pipes - with rubber hose attached - within the plan of the sump.

There's another problem - getting bolts into the piece without cutting through a pipe.... I wondered if I could slope the pipes upwards in my block, allowing me to get a couple of cap-head bolts in. So, set up a piece of scrap wax, using the sine bar & slip gauges:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/81-SlipGauges.jpg)

It didn't work out; there just wasn't sufficient depth left in the wax to take a cap-head bolt.... and then it broke anyway.... ho hum...

Cue much headscratching, thinking, and planning...  :scratch:

So, here's the result of the deliberations:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/82-NextMoves.jpg)

Instead of the separate block, with all the aggro of o-rings, bolts you can't reach, etc., the piece will be left on the front of the sump. The long holes will be capped off, and new holes will be drilled in from the side of the sump to intersect, at a slightly larger spacing (~25mm instead of 20mm); and starting a bit further back than I can manage with what I've got in the picture. Ignore the hole spacing in the temporary block, I got that the wrong way around...

In that picture, the black shaded parts are where I need to fill the drilled holes. Whatever technique I use has to be oil-tight, able to take a high heat (say, 200-250 degrees C to be on the safe side) while remaining oil-tight, and I must be able to mill/drill into it. I'm thinking, make a full-length (up to 100mm long for the longest hole) plug, which is a close sliding fit. Then, silver-solder this into the hole... The question is, with a 100mm long piece of aluminium, how far is the silver solder likely to penetrate? given that it has to go all the way down the hole, effectively making the piece solid again so I can drill into the side of it.

A second option, rather than rely on silver solder, would be to make a huge long threaded piece, and just screw it into the hole. Of course, the worry there is that one of the plugs unscrews itself over time, falls over & blocks the pipe... perhaps a combination of screwed & soldered?

Third option - shrink fit? If I warmed the sump & froze the plug, and the two were a close interference fit (1/2 to 1 thou, say), then that should make for a snug fit without over-stressing the metal too much, shouldn't it? Chances are it'd be a decent oil-tight seal too, without any further effort.

I'm throwing this one open to you, gentle readers... I genuinely don't know which of the above options (or some other option I've not considered) I should go with - please do suggest one...

Anyhoo - the final piece of the puzzle will be to add some spigots at the outflow points. The current plan for those is to mill a 1/2" to 1" long piece to 18mm ID, shove an 18mm OD steel tube in (it should be a nice wriggle fit), and silver-solder in place. These will then have standard rubber pipe jubilee clipped to them, which goes the short distance off to the oil pump.



Hmm, guess I'd better learn to silver-solder....


PS: I just did some expansion/contraction calcs: If I heat the sump to 150 degrees C, and cool the plug to freezing, the combined size difference of a 15.875mm (5/8" to you or I) hole/plug is a smidge over 0.0021". So, if I can turn a plug to within 1 thou accuracy (and not tapered), then a heat-shrink fitting would seem to be possible...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: jim on March 07, 2010, 01:58:30 PM
to cap off the long holes, i'd be thinking along the lines of a gubscrew (taperd?)

loctite and then cross dill and pin/peg?


just a thought, are you going to run the sump on a "spare" motor before using it in anger???

i'd be gutted to hear that something went wrong ( and i've only read about it, not put a lot of hard work in!!!)
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: John Stevenson on March 07, 2010, 02:31:40 PM
You can't silver solder Aluminium.

.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 07, 2010, 04:29:40 PM
Hmm, that's a blow. What about soft soldering?
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Artie on March 07, 2010, 04:45:02 PM
Gday mate, cant soft solder either BUT, this is the vacuum pick up? No pressure, cars have used screw in plugs for decades in oil gallery's under full pressure, that V8 will have some somewhere if you removed the bell housing or front covers. Screw thread and lock tite would work well.

If it comes to that, a press fit core plug WOULD do it.. but I'd prefer a thread myself.

Or you could have it welded.....

And ... great work Ade, if the final product looks anything like the wax, it sure to be a 'winner'...  :whip: :headbang: :wave:

As an aside why cant you LIMIT the depth of each drill hole so that it only goes as far as it needs to be picked up by the 90 degree drilled cross holes? No holes to plug at all then. Simply a case of measuring and marking the drill bit before each hole.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 07, 2010, 04:50:17 PM
Cheers Artie - yes, this is on the vacuum side, the main thing is that the suction doesn't pull the fitting out, causing all kinds of pain.

I was just reading about aluminium & it's solderability. This alloy is 5082 (aka N8) - turns out that's considered "unsolderable" due to its magnesium content. Doh....

So, I guess I'll look at shrink fitting the long "core" plugs, and using a screw fitting + loctite for the pipework.

Quote
As an aside why cant you LIMIT the depth of each drill hole so that it only goes as far as it needs to be picked up by the 90 degree drilled cross holes? No holes to plug at all then. Simply a case of measuring and marking the drill bit before each hole.

Because I drill from the front of the sump, ALL of the holes pass through the fitting region. I could do the holes from the back, and just make a bolt-on piece to block the back of the holes; but then I'd have to drill all three holes to full depth (560mm); at the moment, only one needs to go long (470mm), each of the others is about 100mm shorter.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Artie on March 07, 2010, 04:57:55 PM
Believe it or not I was just in the 'bathroom' when I realised that and raced back in to delete the 'stoopid', but you beat me... You can buy screw in plugs that are quite narrow with a allen key head for just this application. They are steel and with the right loctite, they will never see the light of day again.

Good luck mate.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: DMIOM on March 07, 2010, 06:20:34 PM
Ade,

if the sole reason for the shenanigans is to get better spacing for the screw-in terminal fittings, how about plugging the last bit where the entry hole is and then drilling in again on an angle? ( C-o-C below).  If that then doesn't leave enough for the thread, you could always mill a small flat at the entry point as a sort of counter-bore.  This way you only need two, long, plugs.  Also, if the drillings are too close to the surface for comfort, you could also make the new entry holes a little nearer the block ...

(http://i789.photobucket.com/albums/yy177/DMIOM/AdeV.jpg)

Dave
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on March 07, 2010, 06:28:13 PM
Hi Ade,

I've been reading your thread for a week or so and just kind of caught up  :coffee:

Not really had much to add, quite an engineering feat you've taken on..... Well out of my scope!


Anyway, I was just reading about the above crossdrill and plug issue and was thinking what about plugging the holes before you crossdrill in to the main oil ways.....

If you do this then you can loctite (or whatever pipe sealant you have) aluminium plugs into the holes and even drill and pin (roll pin,home made plugs/pins, screw or bolt) them into position through the main block. Leave for a day or whatever before drilling and they will be all fixed into position and sealed.

If it's pinned as well it'll never come out, it simply couldn't spin on the pin (that's if you only use one per plug) due to side wall thickness and shape.

Loctite stuffs are very strong and withstand a huge range of heats (they fix huge train wheels on with the stuff you know!!! Ask Stew.) you just have to buy the correct one for the application!


If I'm not making sense then C-o-C's can be rendered..... But I think you'll get what I mean?




Just thinking in text  :thumbup:






Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 07, 2010, 07:03:43 PM
Dave - I can't come out of the front of the sump with the pipework as pictured, because there's not enough room in front to fit the pipework. Even if I move the fittings as far back as possible, I'd still struggle to turn the pipes - the rubber hosing has a 25mm OD, and is not particularly flexible.

Ralph - I must have been unclear in my original post.... On the photo I posted above, the black shaded areas represent the original drill holes, which have been plugged to depth with a single piece of ali (locktited or shrink-fitted into place). Then: each sideways hole is drilled to meet its corresponding longways hole; so looking from the front, the nearest cross hole is drilled through two plugs to meet the left-most hole.

In other words pretty much as you describe, except it hadn't occurred to me to pin it as well.

For the Loctite, any suggestions? I'd wondered about 5399, which will take the temperature, but may not be the most suitable adhesive?
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 08, 2010, 06:16:39 AM
Here's a c-o-c describing the plan I have in mind to turn the sump holes:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/83-CrossDrillPlan.jpg)

My writing is unintelligble at the best of times, so to save you struggling:

1) Drill main drain holes to full depth (i.e. as far as they need go).

2) Turn up 3 plugs, of the correct length, which will be fitted in the end of the holes. So, the first plug is the shortest, the last plug is the longest. Each is either an interference (heat) fit, or loctite, whichever is the most sensible.

3) Once the loctite has cured, or the sump has cooled down to the point it can be handled again, I can mount it up & cross-drill the holes - through the plugs (for the outer two holes)

4) (not shown) I'll turn a thread into the end of the cross-drilled holes, turn up some hose barbs, and screw them in using loctite to make sure they stay put.


Any thoughts? In particular, I'd welcome recommendations on which loctite to use, I think I have datasheet fatigue already...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Artie on March 08, 2010, 06:19:48 AM
Ade I cant see a problem with this method. Looking forward to seeing the unit in ali. Good to see someone thinking outside the box. Well done mate.

Artie
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: John Stevenson on March 08, 2010, 06:52:32 AM
I use high strength bearing fit for everything, it's kept Gert's knickers up for the last 8 years.

John S.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 08, 2010, 09:27:23 AM
Right, a quick spell in the workshop over lunchtime (working right next to the shop is great, but a terrible distraction  :poke:)...

First, hack off a piece of ali with my test hole in it. The pipe shown with it is a really nice snug "tap fit", so I'll make my ali piece about 0.001" bigger than it:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/84-HeatFit01.jpg)

First, bung the main piece in the toaster oven, set to 265oC, and leave until golden brown.

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/85-HeatFit02.jpg)

Next, turn up the plug. I'm using the same bit I made my drawbar spacer from. This has a 1/2" hole all the way through it, so when the heat fit is done, that'll probably end up a touch crushed. But that's not a problem, the object of this exercise is to practice heat shrink fitting:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/86-HeatFit03.jpg)

Once exactly 0.634" is achieved, according to the micrometer, the piece is ready. First, check to make sure it won't go into the cold hole, by checking against the part i didn't hack off.

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/87-HeatFit04.jpg)


And, sure enough, absolutely no chance of that going in there, it simply will not fit (although, in fairness, I didn't try battering it with a hammer). So, into the freezer with the part, and wait a little while. About 15 mins, 'cos I'm impatient.

Finally, remove the receiver from the oven & clamp in a vice. Remove the plug from the freezer, align it with the hole, and wallop it with the Plastic Hammer of Destiny. And lo, it came to pass:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/88-HeatFit05.jpg)

 :D

When it's all cooled down a bit, I'll hack off the disc & do a bit of trial machining work to see how it all holds up.

Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 08, 2010, 11:16:33 AM
Once I'd bandsawed off the disc, the tube was revealed:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/89-HeatFit06.jpg)

Inset shows the faint line.

To see if I could move it, I stuck a piece of .625" rod in the other side of the hole & whacked it with a hammer a few times. It moved...:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/90-HeatFit07.jpg)

But not all that much, really, and it'd really take a concerted effort to shift it. Dunno if it would grip better or worse as a solid piece...

Now, if only I could check it for oil-tightness...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Darren on March 08, 2010, 11:32:10 AM
Could you make a flat plate with gasket and bolt it on?

A lid if you like  :wave:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: jim on March 08, 2010, 12:37:17 PM
I use high strength bearing fit for everything, it's kept Gert's knickers up for the last 8 years.

John S.
:D :D :D :D :) :) :) :) :) :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on March 08, 2010, 02:11:27 PM
Ade,

I'd have a bit of all the methods above myself, the heat fit will work fine and loctite on the insert before you (now lets copy and paste this to get it correct...)  "wallop it with the Plastic Hammer of Destiny"  :lol: This'll give very good leak stopping potential. Leave it to cool naturally (save issues with steam being created if quenched and creating fissures etc, and you could afford a few hours on a project like this to make sure it's all in place before machining couldn't you?)


As for the fitting of the barded hose connectors. I'd use PTFE tape.(Still very oil leak stopping on a good thread)
They're the kind of bits to get knocked and snapped during maintenance and you'd find it a lot easier to get 'em out than if they were sealed in! 


Oh and your C-o-C is exactly what I had envisioned  :thumbup:




Loctite..... I'd go with what John said  :lol: (is that the green or red stuff?)





Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 08, 2010, 03:22:07 PM
Hi Ralph - great stuff, I'll do a heat fit combined with loctite, then :) I think it's the red stuff that's temperature tolerant; but, then, for all I know ALL loctite is red!

I like the PTFE tape idea for the hose barbs too, provided it'll stand up to the 150-200 degrees temperatures which may occur down there... if not, I can always loctite them in anyway.  Once the sump is on & sorted, there shouldn't be much call to take it off anyway.

Ah, the Plastic Hammer of Destiny - a close ally of the Spanner o' Doom (seen recently near an angle plate)  :D

Darren - can't use a lid I'm afraid, I need each pipe to be separate. Now, one way to do that (with lids) would be to mill out a step in front of each tube, so it looked a bit like a staircase; then cap off each individual tube. However, to my mind, that would look messy & botched - I'd like people to look at this sump & think "it must be a casting..."

John S: Perhaps you need a bigger hammer?  :clap:

Anyway... no more sump work tonight; I was going to do some, then I thought I'd do 10 mins on another project. Measured three times, cut it wrong twice, gave up for the night, brain is clearly AWOL. Real work interferes for the next couple of nights, normal service should be resumed around Thursday.  :thumbup:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Artie on March 08, 2010, 04:28:10 PM
Ade, dont forget this is the scavenge side of the pump, oil cannot leak unless the engine is turned off. dont fret too much about oil tightness, it isnt an issue as what oil there will be, when shut down, will only be 'pooled' and will only seep, and only then if you have a major issue. Leak gone as soon as you start the engine. Also

With the intererence fit and suitable loctite this will never move (not even when you want to!) chech out www.loctite.com. The temps you mention are not extreme for the average loctite product, dont forget they are designed to work in an engine environment, particularly the racing environment.

Personally I would go with the flat plate bolted on the end because after an engine blow (it happens) you are going to have to be able to clean out the galleries, plugged as you describe would make this a difficult job.

Refer to the comments above, this is not a high load hydraulic joint, it is a slight vacuum joint. A plate with 3 o rings would be much much more than is needed. # staggered height Earls 90 degree fittings would give you the clearance you need.

Cheers  Artie
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Darren on March 08, 2010, 05:08:42 PM
You can still separate the plugs for more room, a plate wouldn't affect that.

I just feel a plate clamped down by say four bolts with a ptfe or other gasket would be the safest and easiest all round. Just a rectangular plate and gasket. As Artie says, you can then pop the plate off to clean it all out at a later date.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: DMIOM on March 08, 2010, 05:58:19 PM
You can still separate the plugs for more room, a plate wouldn't affect that.

I just feel a plate clamped down by say four bolts with a ptfe or other gasket would be the safest and easiest all round. Just a rectangular plate and gasket. As Artie says, you can then pop the plate off to clean it all out at a later date.

yes, to look it another way - its just an extension of the sump. Engines often make do with one of pressed tin with just a cork or card gasket ....
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: andyf on March 08, 2010, 06:58:34 PM
Just a thought - if using plugs, might it be a good idea to drill and tap blind holes in them at this stage, to make extraction easier if/when you ever need to get them out?

Andy
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 08, 2010, 07:22:00 PM
Interesting thoughts chaps.... can someone do a C-o-C of this plate idea? I'm assuming that it works as per the below (please excuse the ASCII-CAD):

  ]-T-------
  ]-+-T-----
  ]-+-+-T---
    | | |
    | | |
    | | |


Key:
 | = cross-drilled pipe
 T = cross-drilled pipe meets end-drilled pipe
 - = end-drilled pipe
 + = cross-drilled pipe crosses end-drilled pipe
 ] = plate bolted on end of sump

i.e. at the point of intersection, all three pipes are inter-connected?
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: crankshafter on March 17, 2010, 11:59:46 AM
Hi Ade.
Been sort of quiet for some time. Where are you hiding? in piles of wax I think :lol: :lol:
Me /we need some update on your great project.

Crankshafter
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 17, 2010, 12:04:04 PM
I've been putting it off (see the keypad thread), because it's time to move to aluminium.... but before I start cutting I need to clean & tram the mill... so that'll be tonight's job, now that the keypad is done & I can't procrastinate any further!

Hmph, 3 hours of cleaning and tramming.... no cutting tonight, you'll have to wait until tomorrow....  :dremel:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 18, 2010, 05:31:04 PM
Right. The adventure begins again, hurrah!

First, I lobbed the aluminium onto the mill, got it reasonably square & in a position where the cutter can reach all four sides (not sure about the tabs, I think they're still out of reach, just). Milled some straight/square/smooth "index surfaces" onto the front corners; I can now use these to set my reference points:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/91-AdventureResumes.jpg)

You can see the index surface, near the "0,0" legend (which, thanks to my very expensive medical education*, looks more like "p,v" in the photo). Current width is, approximately, 261mm. I'll remove 6mm from one side & 5mm from the other, to make best use of the tabs later on. The full length is 560mm, I'll take as little as possible from the front edge (just enough to make it square), the remainder from the back edge. The reason, again, is due to those tabs; because the piece was cut out of a disc, there's an angled edge on the front tab, I need to maximise the overall width there as best I can, so I don't have to make an add-on piece later. It's tricky to explain without a crap-o-cad... maybe I'll do one of those tomorrow instead of working...


I found a use for the memofix too (well, I read it in the manual): Flick the memo switch to "stop when you get to the index mark and act all broken", move the table until x & y lights are lit, and write the numbers down (you can see them near the left-hand clamp). Now I can power off the mill as often as I like; when I start up again, just flick the memofix switch to "broken", move the table until the lights come on; type the numbers into the DRO & put the memofix switch back to "working": And presto, as the table crosses the index mark, the counter resumes. So now I don't have to edge-find every time I power the mill off. Nice one, Dr Heidenhain!

Tomorrow: some cutting :)







(* OK, I lie, I never had an expensive medical education. I just write like a doctor. Very very badly...)
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: zeroaxe on March 18, 2010, 05:41:48 PM

(* OK, I lie, I never had an expensive medical education. I just write like a doctor. Very very badly...)

It is a good thing then that you are writing this project on the comper!!!  :D


Btw, GOOD JOB!!!! :headbang:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: John Stevenson on March 18, 2010, 06:49:29 PM
Ade,
Do you have the horizontal attachment for the Bridgy ?

John S.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Brass_Machine on March 18, 2010, 07:09:04 PM
Looking forward to seeing your dry sump made out of aluminum. Got a kick out of it in wax... gave me the idea to try some of the complex stuff I want to do that way first! Good job on that... now onto the real thing.

 :thumbup:

Eric
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 18, 2010, 08:18:36 PM
Zeroaxe - it certainly is, but my typing is appalling too - but having typed pretty much daily for over 25 years now, I make & correct mistakes really fast :) Incidentally, you should probably know that, about 6 months ago, I didn't have a mill, lathe, or any machining experience whatsoever... I'm still learning like crazy, and for all it's size, this sump is actually relatively simple.


Do you have the horizontal attachment for the Bridgy ?


John - I've got the #4 right-angle drive (the small one that takes unobtainium collets), and have recently picked up a Quillmaster + right-angle attachment; but the beefy #3 right-angle drive + arbor + support has so far proven to be beyond my meagre financial means. I'm guessing you're going to suggest that it would make light work of trimming this piece to size, and I'd be tempted to agree (although I'd need some pretty large diameter cutters). One day, I will have the #3 head, at which point I'll sell the #4 on, as any work it can do can be done with the Quillmaster instead.

Eric - The wax version certainly taught me a lot about what I'm trying to do; and has given me a good idea about what order I should be doing the machining operations in; and also which operations to avoid (that 2mm "pocket" which caused so much grief with the angle plate, for example). I'm not finished with the wax yet, I still have to profile the back of the sump, and I'll do that in wax before I do it in the aluminium.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: John Stevenson on March 19, 2010, 04:49:38 AM
OK then no head.
What I was going to suggest was, if you had the #4 head you could spin the ram over so it was at one end of the table, fit the head and line it up parallel to the bed and then when you drill you will have the plate better supported because you have most of the bed not being used up with the head located over it.


John S.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: zeroaxe on March 19, 2010, 03:06:42 PM
Btw, what you mentioned the other day about drilling holes right through the Ali to have reference points once you turn it over..., and this way loose a lot of WD40 'draining' through to the bottom..... I thought of something that you might be able to use(might work, might not) for the next time. Drill your holes through just like you did, and then shove a wooden dowel in the hole to (re)block it up.....? Makes sense? :scratch:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 19, 2010, 06:40:15 PM
John - not a bad idea; it would also mean I could be sure that the drill was parallel to the table (to the best of my tramming abilities), wheras with the head canted over I have to try to get everything lined up perfectly, without any really decent tooling. I'm open to ideas on that one.

Zero- makes perfect sense (doh). Having said that, I'm done with the 6mm cutter (for now, at least), so it's not currently a worry, but thanks for the suggestion  :headbang:

OK, on with the show. Another 4 hours in the shop, started like this:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/92-FirstCut.jpg)

That's a 4.5mm cut with the 12mm rippa cutter (ebay link (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200379816380) - buy one, they're ace). I sliced down in ~1cm depths at around 250mm/min feed rate until I had to lower the cutter in the collet. After that I went at 1/2cm DOC, just to reduce the strain on the cutter. I've only got one 12mm cutter, didn't want to break it.

After roughing out, take the final 0.5mm in 4 passes - top & bottom, 0.25mm at a time - using a 20mm 4-flute cutter (the only one I've got deep enough to cut the whole depth, with the flatted section inside the collet):

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/93-FinishCuts.jpg)

Repeated this on the backside, and the end (I had to move the clamp again, quelle surprise. One day I'll clamp the bugger in the right place the first time).

So, here it is, looking almost exactly the same as it did yesterday.....:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/94-YouDidWhatExactly.jpg)

But now it's the right width, compared to the wax version:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/95-WidthIsGood.jpg)

Saturday tomorrow = all day in the shop  :thumbup:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 19, 2010, 06:41:56 PM
Just an aside, you can probably see a slight shadow under the block, most noticably under the clamps. I've got it sat on some parallels, so I can drill full-depth holes without having to stop the drill short of breaking through  :thumbup:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: jim on March 20, 2010, 01:01:38 AM
i awiat tonights update!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 20, 2010, 05:28:24 PM
Wait no longer... for tonight's update is here :)

It was supposed to be a short one. Just 2 or 3 pictures to show the progress, and a few words to liven things up. But no, for today we had the first f**kup...

Aaaaanyway, I decided to start by spotting & drilling all of the perimeter holes, like I did with the wax version. Things went well, until.... heart attack time!

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/96-HeartAttack.jpg)

I've just run the drill from the last hole on the back edge of the sump, up to the front edge - but what's this? The drill is a good 1cm from the hole? Then it dawns on me.... the front & back edge holes aren't in line on the engine. Muppet! Just to re-assure myself, I measured it all up again & yep - it's bob on.

However, if you look to the top(ish) right of the photo, you'll see the cockup, which occurred somewhat earlier. Here it is a bit closer:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/97-DrillbitOops.jpg)

The one, and pretty much only, real "gotcha" on my mill, is the fact the quill return spring is broken (and, as it happens, completely missing) As a result, I have to use the quill lock at all times. And I have to make sure I've used enough force when applying it to make sure the quill stays put. When I fail to do that, the result is what you see above - about a 4mm deep gouge where the drillbit dropped back down just as I started cranking on the X-axis to move to the next hole. How the drill bit didn't snap or bend, I have no idea - but it survived to drill another dozen plus holes.

Anyway, as a result of that, I've decided that the top 5mm will be skimmed off the entire piece of aluminium, so all vertical measurements now have to be +5mm. I hope I remember that all the way along...

So, the next operation, mill out the oil drains. There was a 1mm measuring error in my original diagram (and, therefore, on the wax prototype). I double-checked it on the engine and yes, I had measured it wrong originally. Fixed it for the real deal:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/98-OilDrains.jpg)

I've only taken them 10mm deep for now, I'll come back to them later. And, finally for tonight, mill out the first of the central pockets - some 100mm long by 75mm wide and 30mm deep all told:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/99-FirstPocket.jpg)

I started out by slotting out the perimeter with a 6mm rippa; but after I killed two of them, I switched to the 12mm. In the end, the radiused edges aren't that bad, so I'll save my remaining 2 6mm rippas for another day:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/100-TodaysCasualties.jpg)

I cut the pocket 1mm undersize all round with the 12mm ripper cutter, and finished off with a regular end mill. Although the surface in the bottom of the pocket doesn't look that hot, it's actually remarkably smooth; with only one ridge I can feel in the whole lot. Must have got that tramming about spot on, then :)

Tomorrow: Finish the pockets off, and - if there's time - get the mill set up for the deep drilling... heck, maybe even drill one of the holes!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on March 20, 2010, 07:59:16 PM
Your a brave man Ade!!!   :bow:


Good luck with the rest  :thumbup:


Remember measure 43 times cut once!  :smart: 


Well that's what I usually do..... Still chicken up much of the time though!!!*   









Ralph.






*(words have been changed to protect the innocent!)
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: jim on March 20, 2010, 11:36:28 PM
keep up the good work!!!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 21, 2010, 04:53:52 AM
Looking good Ade!  :clap:

May good luck stay with you......  :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: kvom on March 21, 2010, 09:51:44 AM
FWIW, roughing out the pockets by drilling may save some time vs. milling.  And it will save the endmills.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 21, 2010, 05:35:27 PM
Funny you should say that Kvom - I did wonder about making lots of drill holes, but in the end I settled for spotting & drilling the corners of each of the remaining 3 pockets. I drilled them to the biggest drill the little Albrecht will take, 10mm.

Here we are after the spotting work is done (including some idiot lines), but before I drilled out the holes:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/101-LayoutAndSpotDrill.jpg)

After that, it was just a case of mill, mill & mill some more. Each pocket is 3cm deep, 75mm wide, and either 81 or 102mm long. Using the 12mm roughing cutter, going 0.5mm undersized all round, and taking 5mm deep stripes, eventually I had all 3 holes dug. To finish, I went around each hole twice with a regular end mill, opening out to the full size, then cutting back & forth across with 0.025" depth of cut to get to the final 3cm (sorry about the mixed units, the knee is in inches, as is my depth mike. In the end, I missed my depth by 0.002", but frankly life's too short, and it's not a critical dimension.

Here's one of the finishing cuts going on. I did all the finishing under oil:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/102-FinalSizeAndDepth.jpg)

Some wax offcuts do service as crude spray shields. Each pocket is milled in the classic English Lawn Style (i.e. stripes), which reduced the number of full-width power-fed cuts to just one per pocket per 5mm.  So, after many hours (including an extended break for taxi duties):

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/103-PocketsDone.jpg)

It may not look much, but the surface at the bottom of each pocket is some of the best surfacing I've ever achieved with a regular end mill - it's absolutely perfectly smooth to the touch. I'm not sure how many tenths of imperfection you can get away with before you can feel it, but I know it's less than a thou. So, it's a shame it's going to be hidden away under the oily bits of the engine (actually, most of it won't even survive to see that.... it gets milled away when I make the slope down to the drain holes). Ho hum.  ::)

PS: No cutters were harmed during tonight's production  :thumbup:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on March 21, 2010, 05:40:44 PM
Now that's looking nice   :beer:



You must have been there for hours?



Good to see it all going to plan  :thumbup:





Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Brass_Machine on March 21, 2010, 06:43:11 PM
I agree with Ralph... looking nice!

Can't wait to see it finished.

Eric
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 21, 2010, 07:42:31 PM
Cheers chaps :)

Ralph - in total, probably 6 hours today. If it had occurred to me that I didn't need a nice finish, I could have probably saved myself an hour. But what the heck, it's all good practice.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Dean W on March 21, 2010, 09:56:42 PM
It's really coming along well, Ade.  (And thanks for all the good pics!)

Quote
Here we are after the spotting work is done (including some idiot lines)

Idiot lines my eye.  That's playing it smart.  Idiots can't do this kind of work.

Quote
So, it's a shame it's going to be hidden away under the oily bits of the engine...

Somebody will see whatever you do in there, some day.  Just think, when another fellow takes this off some time in the future,
he's gonna think, "This guy did nice work!".  

Dean
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 22, 2010, 06:18:42 PM
Cheers Dean - actually, I used the phrase "idiot lines" in the same way as you'd use "idiot lights" - i.e. quick & dirty warning system. However, I've done some pretty idiotic things in my time; and even with the mill... so it's as wise to be sure..

Anyway, a very brief update tonight. Something that's been bugging me for a while is the one-shot oiler on my mill. It's never worked properly, and usually I'd get about 1/16" of movement on the handle if I used it. Since I've had the mill for 6 months now (yikes!), and it's never been properly 1-shot oiled, I decided I'd better do something about it... And besides, it's good for procrastinating when you're not sure what to do next...

The problem with the oiler was obvious; the pump shaft is bent at the top, causing it to jam hard on the oil outlet doodah. So, the doodah was removed, and since I can't get the shaft out to straighten it, I decided to open up the port a bit to give it some room. In the pic, I'm just roughly centering it by "hanging" it on the 8mm drill bit, I then dialled it in properly, and reamed it out to 8.3mm. As this proved to be totally insufficient, I chucked it up again & ran it out to 9mm; that seems to have done the trick.

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/104-OilerRepair.jpg)

So, by the time that was back on the mill, and one-shotted (the handle still hasn't come all the way down, so maybe there's a blockage too? Still, the knee seems easier to move now, time will tell), I'd decided what to do next: Drill the long holes.

This involves canting the head over 90 degrees, as with the wax model. Only this time, I wanted to be a bit more scientific about setting the head up. So, I started by getting it roughly right, then using a dial gauge running on a cutter shank to try to get rid of any up-down differences:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/105-DialInHead.jpg)

This wasn't easy, the cutter seemed to have some run-out/taper in it, and I was getting bored.... so I decided to try another method. I loaded the big drill up, then set my longest square on a 1-2-3 block.  I positioned the knee so the end of the square was roughly on the centre line.

Next; set the dial gauge up so it's at the exact (by eye, admittedly) same height as the square on it's 1-2-3 block, then set the centre line somewhat more accurately, thus:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/106-DialinHead2.jpg)


Now, move the square to the end of the table (I suppose the dial indicator would have worked just as well, and the magnet would mean I didn't need to clamp it like I did with the square... ho hum):

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/107-DialInHead3.jpg)

Howzabout that? About 3-4mm low. So, I just spannered the head to the right angle by eye. I figure if it's within 1mm over 600+mm, that's pretty accurate...

Question to anyone reading this: Is my method of setting the head angle sane? I'm not sure how much droop there is in that drill bit, and I'm not entirely sure how to measure it. Bear in mind the drill bit is tapered, so I can't use an edge with any accuracy... Any suggestions on how to be absolutely certain I've got the thing dead level would be much appreciated.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Stormin on March 22, 2010, 07:21:29 PM
Question to anyone reading this: Is my method of setting the head angle sane? I'm not sure how much droop there is in that drill bit, and I'm not entirely sure how to measure it. Bear in mind the drill bit is tapered, so I can't use an edge with any accuracy... Any suggestions on how to be absolutely certain I've got the thing dead level would be much appreciated.


Not an expert but I reckon there's a reasonable droop in the drill bit too. How about a cheapo laser pointer mounted in the spindle and set a target near to the pointer then further away on the table. Similar to the way you've done things but gaurantees a straight line to work from.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: DMIOM on March 22, 2010, 07:21:51 PM
.....Bear in mind the drill bit is tapered, so I can't use an edge with any accuracy... Any suggestions on how to be absolutely certain I've got the thing dead level would be much appreciated........

Not sure how practical this would be, with (a) overhang and (b) taper; but as food for thought :

Take a block of, say, aluminium - might only need to be, say, a couple of inches cube (block needs to be long enough in X to span several turns of the flutes of the drill). Secure block to table and drill by feeding the full length of the drill through it. When the shank end has been reached, it should be drilling at the biggest diameter. Make certain the block is still well anchored and that the hole hasn't gone visibily out of round. With the spindle stopped, carefully feed the table back so as to withdraw the drill. When you get back to just before the tip, if there was no taper, the block should still be tight to the drill. If there is taper, it won't be tight any more, so loosen the clamp and then shim up the block (need to lift it squarely) and check if the amount of shim to get it to touch the bottom of the drill matches the specified taper. If you don't know the taper figure, with the block sat back un-shimmed on the table, slide the un-clamped block in and out on Y and clock the difference and halve it, then the shim in Z should be the same.

One thing I'm not sure about though is how much whip you might have after drilling through such a short block ......

Dave
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: andyf on March 22, 2010, 08:16:04 PM
If the position of the job on the table permits the work to be brought close to the collet or whatever is holding the drill (this should be possible, or you wouldn't be able to drill the hole to full depth), I'd use a short, non-droopy drill of the same diameter to drill a few inches in, then wind the job away, fit the long drill, and proceed to full depth.
Counsel of perfection (well, after a couple of pints, it doesn't seem too bad an idea :lol: ): arrange some crude support for the middle of the long drill, so it doesn't sag. Some sort of jack with a generous flat top, brought up to the drill near the collet and then moved out to the mid-point, might do the trick.

Andy
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 22, 2010, 10:01:25 PM
Stormin - that's an interesting idea, I'll have to look into laser pointers. They seem to be cheap enough on eBay; I wonder how true they point when chucked up in a collet...

Dave - I think the taper is the other way around to what you think - i.e. the "fat" end of the drill is the pointy end, and it narrows towards the shank. This makes sense from a chip-clearing perspective, and also it means you're never cutting on the full length of the drill. Mind you, it does make you wonder why they bothered fluting it all the way to the end... since I can only cut around 10mm at a time in the aluminium. Also, the drill does whip very alarmingly if run in free air (no prizes for guessing how I know this...), I'd reckon that a short block wouldn't offer much support after 1/2 the drill length had passed through it; also, because of the taper, it would start cutting oval in very short order, I reckon.

Andy - I know it's a looong time ago, but way back on p4, that's exactly what I did with the wax model. I used a 16mm end mill (Not sure why, I have a 5/8" end mill... hm, maybe I don't have a 5/8" collet). I also did that when I did the trial hole in aluminium, which is on p5... I'll be doing it again this time too  :thumbup:

FWIW, and in case I'm being unclear, I'm only concerned with the drill bit drooping while I try to get the head set up perfectly horizontal. Once drilling has begun, the hole supports the drill, so it doesn't appear to wander at all.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: usn ret on March 22, 2010, 10:53:17 PM
Ade, a length of white steels/drill rod held in your collet would not sag and you can check squareness over the lenght of the rod to get the desired degree of trueness. Hope this helps.  :beer: Ypur project has a much larger audience than you know. I am impressed with your progress ao far.   :hammer: Measure mannnnny times cut once!!!! :wack:
Cliff :beer:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Stormin on March 23, 2010, 06:02:34 AM
Stormin - that's an interesting idea, I'll have to look into laser pointers. They seem to be cheap enough on eBay; I wonder how true they point when chucked up in a collet...


Easy way to tell is watch if the mark dances about on the wall when you set the spindle revolving.

Forgot to complement you on the machining and ingenuity shown so far on this project, keep up the good work.
Be nice to see the finished car but it sems to be missing from your first post now.

Edit: It's seems to be back again now. I'd forgot it was a Capri and not BMW this engine was going in.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: DMIOM on March 23, 2010, 06:04:26 AM
Stormin - that's an interesting idea, I'll have to look into laser pointers. They seem to be cheap enough on eBay; I wonder how true they point when chucked up in a collet...

OK - if you get a self-contained laser pointer, you could pop it in a collet and then spin by hand or at low speed whilst watching the image on a card as far away as practical - at least as far away as your drill is long.  If the spot gets bigger when its spinning, then its describing a circle and needs nudging to true it up. Then, when running true, "erect" a target which you can secure to the bed, mark where the dot is and traverse the table and check that the dot stays static.

Dave

EDIT cross-posted at same time as Stormin !
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 23, 2010, 08:32:11 AM
Cool, I'd thought of getting one of those cheapie keyring ones, cut off the keyring, and it looks like it ought to go in a collet. I'll get some ordered  :thumbup:

The only downside is, Staples want £40 minimum for a pointer, vs. less than £2 on eBay, so I'll just set up as best I can without a laser for now.
After all, it's not like it's my sump!  :lol:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: crankshafter on March 23, 2010, 08:33:06 AM
Hi Ade.
Nice work
Laser edge/senter finder, have a look at this, fits in your colett
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2604
CS
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: kvom on March 23, 2010, 08:46:54 AM
I'm wondering how rigid the head is when set at 90 degrees like that.  Perhaps some additional support would be a good idea.  :scratch:

For setting level, some drill rod in a collet checked with the DI seems like a reasonable approach
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 23, 2010, 08:53:27 AM
CS: $85!!!! Wow, that's clean out of my budget... I'm sure it must be possible to rig up a holder for one of those cheap "cat toy" laser pointers... 

:proj: strikes again...

Kvom: It's not bad, actually, so long as you clamp the head bolts down nice & firmly. Yeah, there's a fair amount of weight on the backside, what with the motor hanging off it - and changing the speed is a bit of a pain (needs at least 3 hands, 5 would be better). The Bridgie is obviously designed to take such arrangements, as apparently there's an oil modification you need to do if you plan to leave the head on its side for a significant period of time (typically, "significant" is not defined: Is it an hour? a day? a week?). At any rate, I managed the three wax holes & 1 aluminium hole without any apparent issues; so I'm not overly concerned right now. Ask me again in about 10 hours..... my reply might be a bit different...  :zap:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 23, 2010, 07:24:27 PM
OK, tonight's update; and due to a late finish, it's pretty brief I'm afraid. I spent ages setting up, using a dial indicator to try to get the sump straight & true:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/108-SettingUp.jpg)
(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/109-SettingUp2.jpg)

Then using a piece of 5/8" mild steel rod as a crude edge finder:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/110-Edgefinding.jpg)

Finally, I am ready to take the plunge & start drilling. I can't reach as far as the work piece with a centre drill, so I'm just having to chance that the 7mm drill won't wander too badly. It seemed OK:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/111-FirstHole.jpg)

These holes were then opened out to 1/2" (biggest drill bit I've got with a straight shank), and finally milled to 5/8" with a cutter held in the chuck - the only way I could make it reach the sump:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/112-MillingStarterHoles.jpg)

....and that's the last of tonight's photos. I went ahead & drilled the shortest hole (238mm), and the longest (483mm). I videoed the long hole, it's loading onto the computer now & I should be able to edit it down sometime in the next couple of days... I thought you'd prefer a video to some stills...

Right, offski. Haven't eaten yet, and it's gone 11pm  :bugeye:

 :thumbup:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: jim on March 24, 2010, 04:10:10 AM
good work!

Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on March 24, 2010, 04:38:00 AM
Looks like your going to have some fun today Ade!?!?   :ddb:



It'll be hard to drill it with all your fingers crossed though  :dremel:




Hope it all goes as smoothly as the test pieces  :headbang:







Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 24, 2010, 04:43:11 AM
Wishing continuing good luck to you Ade!  :thumbup:

David D

Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Darren on March 24, 2010, 09:28:16 AM
Praying for you over here too ....  :thumbup:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Bernd on March 24, 2010, 09:56:40 AM
WOW  :bugeye:

That's some setup. It's a wonder the mill didn't tip over sideways.  :lol:

Hope you get the expected results.   :beer:  :ddb:

Bernd
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: crankshafter on March 24, 2010, 10:45:40 AM
Hi Ade.
That's what we call a setup :jaw: :bugeye: :D
Ade: you and  :mmr:
CS
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Dean W on March 24, 2010, 08:24:53 PM
Yes, that's quite a setup. 
Okay, just like with the wax, now.  Three nice big straight holes!
Going great, Ade.  I know you'll be victorious over the metal monster! 

Dean
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 24, 2010, 08:35:47 PM
Thanks chaps, your encouragement & general approval means a lot to me. :thumbup: To think, a little over 6 months ago, I'd never touched a metalworking machine in my life (well, maybe excepting brushing past a lathe at school, twenty mumbleteen years ago). I'm fairly sure that, if I knew what I was doing, I certainly wouldn't be attempting this!

Don't worry about the mill tipping over, I had my ample weight anchoring the mill down on the other side...  :lol:

No progress tonight, the day job got in the way.... I had finished & uploaded the video but YouTube have decided that I can't use my chosen soundtrack due to copyright infringement, so I need to find a more obscure version of it before I can show & tell...

FWIW - the drill chattered a LOT more on the two holes I've drilled so far, than it did on the test hole. I don't know if it's the extra material causing it to have to work harder, or some other factor; but it was a proper pucker job drilling the first two holes. Of course, with only one hole left to go, I'm pretty happy about the various noises now, so I don't anticipate any problems.

The only remaining mystery is - did the drill go to where I expected it to? I won't find that out until tomorrow at the earliest...  :coffee:

Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on March 25, 2010, 04:44:59 AM
(said in the super deep movie trailer introduction voice....!)

"The story of a man realising his engineering abilities. A brush with the "law". Nail biting drama. Mystery, and suspense....... This thread has everything!

"BMW V8 dry sump from billet"  Coming to a forum near you soooon!!  "


 :lol:


I don't know... It seemed funny while I was writing it!?   :)



Sounds like your having fun Ade?


Waiting for the vid' after you get around the "law"  :bang:


 :nrocks:




Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 25, 2010, 11:06:09 AM
And now....




.....





....for something completely different...


Or, indeed, maybe not. The video finally uploaded & didn't trigger any lawyers  :thumbup:

Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: jim on March 25, 2010, 01:48:13 PM
excellent :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on March 25, 2010, 02:22:25 PM
Nice choice of tune Ade  :ddb:  Quality vid  :thumbup:


Looiked like fun!! 55 mins per hole!!!!!! :jaw:




Hope you'ev had fun today too?




Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 25, 2010, 05:46:31 PM
Hi Ralph - it was only 55 mins for the long hole; the short hole took about 25 mins. The medium hole, today, took 30 mins, partly because I'd a better idea what I was doing & what drill bit noises I could safely ignore, and partly because I had a helper to squirt the oil for me, so I didn't have to keep walking around the job. That saved some time... Oh, that and the fact the drill bit, bless it, managed the first 120mm in a single cut. I was so proud... (http://helmies.org.uk/smokin.gif)

As for the video soundtrack... it had to be Zorba, the only problem is, the film really ought to be getting faster & faster to match the tempo, but then it would have been too long & boring... As it was, I chopped the middle of the track out, which is, I think, why it got past the content ID censors.



So....... on with today's installment. I only had the middle-length hole (a mere 342mm) to do today. Here's everything set up to begin cutting:
(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/113-MediumHole-Begins.jpg)

Today, the drill still rattled the floor, but it cut like a beauty. The "customer" (Dad) appeared at a suitable point in the process to help out with the oil squirting job too, so that saved a bunch of time, it meant I could run the drill out, he sprayed it with WD40, run back in, rinse & repeat. It also helped that the drill was easily cutting 20mm, even at the deepest point, before it clogged up. So that sped things along nicely. As a result, a mere 30 minutes later, the full depth is reached:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/114-MediumHole-Complete.jpg)

And, for the pervs amongst us, here's a rather rude animation of those two pictures (click the image for a link to the big 350kb version):

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/117-AnimatedHole-thumb.gif) (http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/117-AnimatedHole.gif)


To give you an idea of how deep the longest hole is, here's the drill bit positioned as if at the bottom of the long hole:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/115-LongHole-Howlong.jpg)

As you can see, the drill bit is actually a fair bit longer than it needed to be... which simply adds complexity and reduces rigidity. At some point in the future, I'll try the £5 eBay drill (500mm flutes instead of 600mm) in one of my leftover ali bits. If that one tracks true, then it'll be a lot easier to use than the 600mm version.


Aaaanyway, I'm putting off the next bit....

I had to know if the hole was accurate. There's no getting away from it, I need to know before I carry out the next machining operations.... So, the mill is re-set to normal, trammed back in (normally, this takes me forever - but tonight, with Dad watching, I managed it in 5 minutes flat (http://helmies.org.uk/smokin.gif)), lobbed the sump back on the table, dialled it in straight, and found the edges; loaded up the small chuck & a drill bit, cranked the table over to where I calculated the end of the hole to be; back away 3mm in the X axis (I didn't want to land smack bang on the tip of the hole, after all), and...






and....




















and....



















are you on the edge of your chair yet?....












...

















SMACK BANG ON TARGET!

(http://helmies.org.uk/woohoo.gif)(http://helmies.org.uk/woohoo.gif)(http://helmies.org.uk/woohoo.gif)(http://helmies.org.uk/woohoo.gif)(http://helmies.org.uk/woohoo.gif)(http://helmies.org.uk/woohoo.gif)(http://helmies.org.uk/woohoo.gif)(http://helmies.org.uk/woohoo.gif)(http://helmies.org.uk/pinkelephant.gif)(http://helmies.org.uk/woohoo.gif)(http://helmies.org.uk/woohoo.gif)

This photo didn't come out quite as well as I hoped it would; there's a bright light being shone down the end of the long hole, and that's my test hole. But it just looks like I photoshopped a white circle into the pit. Ah well...

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/116-WeHaveAWinner.jpg)

So, on that happy note, I decided to call it a night & come do this write up. So, to quote a program I often watch on Discovery - now you know, how it's made.

:headbang:

Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: andyf on March 25, 2010, 06:30:52 PM
 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

The nailbiting suspense in your last post! And the cameo appearance in the movie! Alfred Hitchcock lives!

Andy
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Artie on March 25, 2010, 06:31:11 PM
Mate thats fantastic, the worste part of this job is done... al; fun stuff from here on.... brialliant! Im so happy for you. :clap: :thumbup: :bow: :beer:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: CrewCab on March 25, 2010, 07:23:29 PM
Well chuffed for you here Ade (http://www.anchoredbygrace.com/smileys/jump.gif)

Well done mate, just brilliant  :thumbup:

CC
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on March 25, 2010, 09:29:24 PM
Proper job  :thumbup:



Now the fun starts ehh!?!?!   :ddb:




Glad they didn't all take that long too.... Love the animation :lol:





 
Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 26, 2010, 08:56:39 AM
Yeee....... Haaaarrrr!


Oh what a feeling........ (http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/animated/anim_65.gif) (http://www.mysmiley.net) (http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/animated/anim_65.gif) (http://www.mysmiley.net)

Well done Ade!  :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 26, 2010, 10:02:02 AM
Thanks lads - I have to admit, I'm glad the holes are over & done with. Of all the machining I have to do to this thing, that was perhaps the most difficult bit... although I've got to measure up & make the plugs yet... so we're not totally out of the woods yet.

Anyway, here's a bonus picture; I wasn't sure if the camera would do it, but - once again - the ol' Olympus just keeps on giving the goods:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/118-ViewDownTheHole.jpg)

Yup, that's a picture of the bottom of the hole, with my test hole in it (and the camera successfully auto-focused on that, unbelievably).

You can clearly see that the test hole is a little off-centre, maybe 1mm or 2mm tops. Depth of cut's not bad either, it looks like the tip of the drillbit is pretty much spot on the 483mm, that test hole should be 0.5mm short of the full length.

I think I can basically pronounce myself happy with those results. Of course, whether I can convert this agricultural-sized machining success down to making tiny fiddly parts at a later date... well, that's a whole world of pain just waiting to happen I think...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: andyf on March 26, 2010, 10:44:48 AM
Ade, might it be worth drilling the remaining test holes (if you haven't already done them) with a small diameter drill so you can check if they are centralised, then (if near enough) open them up to full diameter or (if not quite right) adjust the table and then drill down with a slot drill of the full diameter, taking out the test hole in the process?

Andy
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 26, 2010, 11:01:17 AM
That's pretty much the plan, Andy - I've not done the remaining test holes yet, but I expect they'll be off by the same amount. My edge finding was probably not all that accurate when I drilled the holes - or maybe the piece still wasn't quite dead straight on the angle plate, hence the slight misalignment; fortunately, it's not a critical dimension, so I can easily work around it  :thumbup:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: CrewCab on March 26, 2010, 05:22:06 PM
Ade ........... what can I say .............. absolutely brilliant work mate  :thumbup:  no stopping you now feller  :clap:

CC  :beer:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 26, 2010, 06:28:44 PM
CC - cheers m8, the only thing slowing me down now is deciding which operations to do next...

So, tonight's not much of an update really. I spent quite a long time trying to work out why the X-axis was really stiff to turn (turned out I had the sump clamped a little too tightly, obviously the table was warping just a smidge, causing it to run stiff, as if the gibs were locked. Things went much better once I'd fixed that...

So, I've worked out how long my plugs need to be, to block off the respective holes when I come to drill the cross-holes. I've bought a piece of ali bar to turn the plugs out of, so maybe I'll have a go at that. Now, you may recall, I'd planned to go with a heat-assisted interference fit. But, as I've not yet managed to blag a free oven of a suitable size to warm the sump, I've decided to go with a nice tight push-fit, and I'll loctite it.


HELP! Which loctite should I use? There are so many to choose from..... I have a short window of opportunity to buy some tomorrow morning, so long as it's not an obscure one, which I'd like to do... Main requirements are: Copes with temperatures of 150-175oC, doesn't dissolve or significantly weaken in the presence of hot, thin synthetic engine oil, can cope with vibration. I just need a suitable product number (or selection of), I can try chasing some down before all the engineering stockists (that are open on Saturday morning) close. Many thanks.

Now, as pre-payment for that information, here are some photos & some wordy bits :)

As Andy suggested, I pre-drilled a small hole where I anticipated each main hole ending (more or less). Both tests succeeded, all 3 holes pretty well on target  :thumbup: So, I went ahead & milled out the holes where the oil will drain into the pipes:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/119-OilDrainsMilled.jpg)

Subtle difference from the wax one; as I measured the drill location correctly this time, it turns out the short hole is actually in the sloping section (which is not yet sloped), hence the odd looking  cutouts near the top left.

Looking straight down the longest hole, with the help of the red bar, you can see how accurate I was (or wasn't, as the case may be):

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/120-HoleAccuracy.jpg)

There's a slight lip where the red bar is (running the whole length of the pocket), about 1mm wide, which is where the pocket is slightly across from the hole (i.e. where the hole wandered slightly off course). TBH, blind drilling a 480mm hole with a 5/8" twist drill, I'll take that 1mm accuracy. I could probably better it with a gun drill, but at £1000+ for the coolant unit, before you buy the drill & the anti-waggle fixture (a sort of fixed steady for the gun drill shank), plus the inevitable contribution to Brown's failed economy (VAT, that is), I reckon I'm looking at the thick end of £2k. Worth doing if (when...) I put these sumps into production, but not before.

Anyway, as I didn't do much photography tonight, here's a gratuitous shot looking right up the holes (oo-err mrs):

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/121-ArtyHoleShot.jpg)

Left to right, they are 230mm, 483mm, 342mm deep respectively. And now... good grief, is that the time? Time to eat....
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: andyf on March 26, 2010, 08:15:44 PM
Loctite 668, perhaps? Datasheet:

http://www.grampianfasteners.com/files/Henkel%20Info/Technical/668.pdf

"Hot strength" is halfway down page 2, on the left - at 200C, it drops to half its strength at "room temp", but in your application it won't be under any real pressure, will it?

Andy
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on March 26, 2010, 10:50:54 PM
Ade,

Looks like a good job to me  :thumbup:

Can't help much with the loctite things but I will add this: you should certainly test the plug thing at the full depth/longest plug on your test drilled piece of ali.

I say this because when I've driven plugs into holes with loctite on they have often bonded well before they have reached full depth. even gone so tight that a tapping stick doesn't help!

Making the plugs slightly smaller than you might think might be needed?

Hope it helps? Just wouldn't want you to screw anything up at this stage :)





Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: usn ret on March 27, 2010, 12:13:38 AM
Ade, great work, kind of like shooting a bullet with a bullet but in this case, your are taking a long floppy fluted rod.  :beer: and making it go where you want it to go.  More  :beer: We are all rooting for a great finished product :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: Looking forward to the next installment.
Cliff :coffee:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: dsquire on March 27, 2010, 03:40:49 AM
Ade

Great job. I've been following along and am glad to see that things are working out so well for you. I could feel that grin all the way up to Canada when you found the two holes lined up. Keep up the super work, I'll be watching. :ddb: :ddb:

Cheers  :beer:

Don

Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: djc on March 27, 2010, 04:44:26 AM
Very nice work. A couple of points that might help:-

You note that your centre drill was too short. You can make an extension for it by drilling/reaming/grubscrew a length of steel bar.

Whatever Loctite you use, download and read the datasheet for it, most crucially the bit on the clearance required for the Loctite to do its job properly (basically, you need a fairly sloppy fit; too tight and the film of Loctite is too thin to work). Also make sure you clean the holes with IPA, thinners or something before Loctiting as there will be WD40 residue in there.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: No1_sonuk on March 27, 2010, 01:57:57 PM
Making the plugs slightly smaller than you might think might be needed?
What about freezing the plugs before fitting them?
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 27, 2010, 02:49:15 PM
Thanks again all, for your kind words :thumbup:

Andy: I looked at 668, and it led me to 648, what do you think? To quote from one site's blurb:

Quote
Loctite 648 high strength, high temperature retainer is designed for the bonding of cylindrical fitting parts. The product cures when confined in the absence of air between close fitting metal surfaces and prevents loosening and leakage from shock and vibration.

Typical used for holding gears and sprockets onto gearbox shafts and rotors on electric motor shafts.

Recommended for continuous working temperatures, up to a maximum of 175°C

The only thing is, I've made my first plug (the long one), and I wouldn't exactly call it "close" fitting.... although it's probably near enough... I can always re-do it, if leaks.

Ralph - well, I've just paused for 5 mins after finishing the first plug, and I do seem to have made it smaller than I thought was needed!  :doh: It's quite a sloppy fit, so there's probably plenty of room for the loctite & no need to use the freezer this time...

Right, that's enough restin'; time to make 2 more plugs...

Pics to follow.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 27, 2010, 05:55:13 PM
OK, so there we have it. 3 plugs...

First, load some 1" ali bar in the 4-jaw chuck. I've given up with the 3-jaw, it's impossible to maintain concentricity within 10-15 thou. It's bad enough with the 4 jaw, I can usually get that down to 1 thou runout given enough time & patience:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/122-Plug-01.jpg)

Next, turn down the correct length (plus a couple of mm spare) to 0.625", again plus a gnat's to take into account the drill chatter. I think I ended up with most of the plugs at 0.630", and they're an easy sliding fit (would fall out if you turned the piece on end). Hopefully the loctite will make that up & bind them firmly in place with no leaks. In the pic below, I'm taking a facing cut to bring the plug to length:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/123-Plug-02.jpg)

So, once the plugs are finished, part them off leaving a thin flange. I can't seem to get parting off sorted on this lathe, dunno if it's the tool, the technique or what. So I used the tool to dig as deep as I could, then finished off in the bandsaw. Then, put the plugs back in the lathe the other way around, and face the flange so it's a bit neater. No special reason for this, but it's all practice. So here's the end result:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/124-PlugsComplete.jpg)

And here they are, snug as bugs in a rug, in their respective holes (and in this pic, you can see why I had to cut the flanges; I used the bandsaw, which is why they're all at jaunty angles):

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/125-PlugsInBed.jpg)

Once glued in, the flanges will be milled off, leaving the plugs flush with the front of the sump.

And finally, a picture showing how they work. The black shaded lines represent the holes inside the sump, drilled in through the side & through the respective plugs:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/126-PlugsHowTheyWork.jpg)

Obviously that's a bit crap-o-cad, the real version will have equal pipe spacing, etc. So, by the time I'm finished, that long plug will have been chopped into three separate pieces. Someone, somewhere on this thread, suggested pinning them (by which, I assume, they mean a pin inserted vertically which intersects the plug and block, thus preventing the plug from either rotating, or moving) - this is an idea which appeals to me, and I will probably do it.

Day off tomorrow, so the next update will be Monday.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: andyf on March 27, 2010, 09:50:38 PM
Ade, I'm no expert on high-temp Loctite, but the datasheet for 648 http://www.loctite.sg/sea/content_data/93769_Loctite_648_Retaining_Compound.pdf
shows it stronger than 668 until about 175°C (you quoted 150-175°C as the most you expected) at which point its  strength is on an increasingly downward curve. The graph for 668, though getting down to 50% strength at lower
temperatures, seems to hold that strength as the temp increases to 200°C.

You pays your money and takes your chance, but perhaps it's best not to get too blinded by science. Drain plugs in sumps traditionally consist of a bolt with no more than three or four turns of coarse thread clamping down a fibre washer under the bolt head.

This sump is for a competition car. If the plugs face forward, air pressure will keep them in place if you go fast enough  :lol: :lol: 

Andy
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Dean W on March 27, 2010, 10:35:58 PM
Wow, Ade.  I missed a day, and you really went to town.
The light you showed at the end of the tunnel is a beautiful thing, in this case!  (At least it's not a train.)
It's coming along so well, and I'm happy for your success.

Dean
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on March 28, 2010, 07:41:16 AM
Quote
Someone, somewhere on this thread, suggested pinning them (by which, I assume, they mean a pin inserted vertically which intersects the plug and block, thus preventing the plug from either rotating, or moving) - this is an idea which appeals to me, and I will probably do it.

 :wave:


Yep, pin down intersecting each plug section so it can't slide/pop out. As the side walls themselves would prevent them twisting on the pins, keeping 90+% of the flow contained even if the loctite fails. (belt and braces!)

 Hope it works now!!  :)




Looking good, and lots more answers on the loctite front..... Isn't the internet brilliunt!?   :nrocks:







Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: jim on March 28, 2010, 12:13:26 PM
i'd loctite and pin each section.

i'm looking forward to the next update!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 29, 2010, 04:42:30 PM
Cheers chaps, keep up the encouragement.... it's needed just now...


Spigots of Death - Part 1

I need 3 spigots, one per pipe, so that the flexi hose to the oil pump can be fixed on. This means lathe work... In my defence, the lathe is much newer to me than the milling machine, and I've had a lot less practice on it. Which probably explains why I now have 2 scrap spigots & no good ones... and I'm rapidly wearing my 1" ali stock down...

Here's the two attempts:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/127-SpigotsOfDeath-1.jpg)

Attempt #1, incongruously, is the one on the right that looks just fine. OK, the shoulder end of the thread is a bit messy, but that side is basically OK. The thread was cut with a mixture of single pointing & then a die. As it transpires, I had my metric threading tool in the toolpost, so it didn't cut a particularly good BSF thread... Switched to the imperial cutter tonight and that did better.... except I cut the threads too deep. So, when I drilled out the centre, the last drill just ate the threaded end. Doh!

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/128-SpigotsOfDeath-2.jpg)

Looking from this side, you can see the problem with the "good" spigot - I've badly over-cut the spigot wall, so there's nearly no meat left. Certainly not enough to clamp a hose to. It makes for a really light part, though! Wall thickness on the other one is better. All it needed was a chamfered end, and it'd have been bob on.

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/129-SpigotsOfDeath-3.jpg)

I cut the spigot end (on both parts) using a parting tool: I'm sure that's a Really Bad Idea, but I can't think of a better way to cut between the shoulder and the 4-jaw chuck. Won't be a problem after tomorrow, I've got a tasty new ER32 collect chuck + some collets arriving  :clap: so I'll finally be able to turn stuff around without having to spend 1/2 hour dialling it back in. I just hope it sticks out past the 4-jaw, so I don't have to take that off... 'cos that would be a right arse ache.

So..... a disappointing evening on the lathe. But fear not.... I will not be beaten.... Part 2 tomorrow (hopefully).


Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Darren on March 29, 2010, 06:35:31 PM
Hey, chin-up .... it's not a failure, just call it practice to get you closer to your goal ....  :headbang:

I'm sure we have no doubts of your capabilities   :clap:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 29, 2010, 08:01:16 PM
It's funny, but as I look at the semi-failed part (the first one, with the holes I just noticed in the threads - clearly visible in the 3rd photo...), it still amazes me that I made it myself.

I. Made. It.

I mean, how cool is that?  :med:

Even though it's useless, I think I'll finish it off - the final operation was to mill a hex on the central section, so it can be spanner tightened onto the sump.

It also raises the question... can I run a 5/8" bore through a 3/4" BSF threaded section without it failing due to being too thin? Evidence to date would suggest not; but, then, I can try cutting the threads a little shallow, safe in the knowledge the tap seems to be cutting a trifle deep
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: No1_sonuk on March 29, 2010, 08:10:35 PM
Could you not cast up some of your wax into a cylinder and test the idea?
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 29, 2010, 08:20:01 PM
Could you not cast up some of your wax into a cylinder and test the idea?

I'm pretty sure the wax is too delicate at that sort of thinness, it would just break up as the drill went through. Having said that, it's got to be worth a go...


I've found a BSF chart which suggests that, theoretically at least, a 5/8" bore WILL go through a 3/4" BSF thread, with a "generous" 0.018" wall thickness between the minor diameter & the inner bore... I'll have to get out the measuring tongs tomorrow & see if the hole I'm cutting is oversized; but, as I mused above, I reckon I can cut the thread a bit shallow to give me a bit more elbow room with the bore size. Of course, 5/8" is the ideal bore, I could get away with 19/32" if it's going to be a problem.... except I probably haven't got a drill or reamer that size...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Darren on March 29, 2010, 08:32:56 PM
Does this help?

http://www.diracdelta.co.uk/science/source/b/r/british%20standard%20whitworth/source.html
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Artie on March 29, 2010, 08:39:28 PM
Hi Ade, firstly, damned great job so far. Loving the write up. Secondly, I have to endorse earlier comments, no cock up is a failure if you learn something from it... its called 'practise' and its time well invested!!

Lastly, are not these fittings available in steel or hi tensile ali? (such as Earls fittings at www.holley.com) I ask this because if one of these broke at the thread point it would cost you an engine. Sort of a silly reason to lose an engine.

Keep it up mate.  :beer:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: dsquire on March 29, 2010, 10:40:15 PM
Ade

I'm going to throw my 2 cents worth in here.  :poke:

When making the plugs for the oil passages you were very concerned that they might come out hence the loctite and possible pin to keep them in place. An elephant could not get them out.  :thumbup:

Now you are making the spigots and they are looking pretty fragile to me. I think that it wouldn't take much of a bump to break one off and then you have oil all over the track instead of the crankshaft.  :( :(

Cheers  :beer:

Don

Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 30, 2010, 10:39:34 AM
(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/130-ER32-Woo.jpg)

(http://helmies.org.uk/woohoo.gif)


(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/131-ER32-Bugger.jpg)

Bugger!

So, I will have to take the 4-jaw off to use that shiny new ER32 collet chuck  :( Not a job I'm looking forward to, it must be said...

...maybe I'll buy a 3MT extension sleeve for future use, although that runs the risk of being a bit floppy... I really need want a quick-change chuck system...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 30, 2010, 12:05:36 PM
Ah!

That`s a pity.......   :scratch:

An extension sleeve will make very little difference to the rigidity....... You will only be taking light cuts, I guess.  :smart:


David D
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on March 30, 2010, 12:17:59 PM
Ade,


What thread has it got in your collet chuck and where abouts are you?  (PM if need be)


You see I've got an ER32 collet holder with a body a bit too long for my machine bout 100mm (or looks at least twice the length of body to yours) nut to the start of the moarse.... I'll have to measure it correctly, but I'm going to play pool in about 10 min's.

Anyway, I only got it 8-10 months or so ago and it's only been used about 5 times (not much shop time at all last year  :( )


You can see were I'm going with this can't you??



Just a thought, no need for wobbly extensions  :)





Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Jasonb on March 30, 2010, 12:27:23 PM
Quote
a 5/8" bore WILL go through a 3/4" BSF thread, with a "generous" 0.018" wall thickness

The difference in bore and core dia is 0.018" which only gives you a fag paper 0.009" wall thickness as you need to divide by two. Also you can have a radius on the end of the tool which will help with strength as it reduces the stress raisers.

If you can only use 3/4" BSF then I would not take the bore over 9/16"

May also be worth having a slightly raised lip on the stub for the hose to reduce the risk of it sliding off even with the clamp tightened

Or you could push the boat out and get some Aeroquip fittings  ::)

Jason

Jason
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: jim on March 30, 2010, 02:02:28 PM
jsut a quick question about the hose fittings.

are you intending to use ally? if so i'd be inclinded to buy some in, as mentioned previously.

you've done a fantastic job so far!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 30, 2010, 02:11:49 PM
David, hmm, light cuts you say? I guess 0.030" in ali doesn't count as light, no?  :zap:

Ralph - Collet chuck has a 7/16" BSW thread (because, obviously, that's in SUCH common use these days...), and is about 15cm full length (including taper). I'm based just across the river from Liverpool (just off the Wirral end of the M53 motorway). Certainly I'd prefer not to be messing around with extensions, if I can help it.... and yes, I think I can see where you're going with your thinking...  :beer:, no wait,  :dremel: I mean...

Jason - thanks for the calcs. I'm not sure there's any kind of radius on my single pointing tool (it's very pointy). I chose 3/4" BSF as I happen to posess a full set of taps (taper, 2nd & plug), which I don't have for any other size of hole. And because, nominally, it's able to take the 5/8" hole....



...but, as it's so close, I think I'll try Plan B: I'll use a straight shank on both ends, and some Loctite to retain it in the sump. As the oil pump & sump don't move in relation to each other, there shouldn't be much repetitive strain going on, maybe some vibration, but no major pulls & pushes.


Jim.... buy? Buy!? How very dare you!  :lol:

Purchased fittings will be the choice of last resort... I'll make 'em out of Stainless if I have to...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Jasonb on March 30, 2010, 02:25:54 PM
I think I would be happier with a thread rather than loctite but go for a finer pitch in metric something like M18x 1.0 or 1.5 or you could use 3/4 x 16 UNC. Maybe even 5/8 BSP as this is designed for 5/8" ID pipe.

Jason
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 30, 2010, 05:13:08 PM
Jason - I'll check out 5/8 BSP I think; I should be able to get taps for that before Easter...

Meanwhile, another frustrating evening on the lathe... It started off OK, I chucked up & centered a 2.25" length of 1" ali bar, and turned 0.75" down to about 20mm (small enough to fit in an ER32 collet anyway).

Then, pulled the 4J off, cleaned out the spindle (mucky pup it was too), popped in the 3MT sleeve, added the collet chuck and - woah - LOADS of runout... over 0.2mm at the chuck body. Damn.

Investigations have shown that the 3MT sleeve is the culprit, with around 0.1mm runout right at the neck of the internal morse taper (it's probably worse than that, the dial gauge was at an angle). Humbug. Now I need to make a new one of them. I'm glad I've got this one, mind, the external taper doesn't conform to any documented standard that I can find... looks like I'm going to be busy over Easter...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: CrewCab on March 30, 2010, 05:22:53 PM
As ever Ade ........... great work and dam good entertainment  :beer:

I'll make 'em out of Stainless if I have to... 

Got to say with the wall thickness etc my first thoughts were that ally was probably not the best choice  :smart: ............ but just my 2c worth of course, it's easy to be a critic from afar ain't it  :bugeye:

keep up the good work mate  :bow:

CC
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on March 30, 2010, 07:45:44 PM
The Wirral.... I was there repairing a door this afternoon  :lol:  Only about 45 min's away  :thumbup:


My threads are M12x1.5 I could probably re-thread your one to my specs, but would that thread be an issue to yourself?  Have you got a drawbar for your lathe of that thread?

Anywho, I'll measure it all up and you and I can have a chat about it tomorrow :thumbup:


I know everyone is saying good stuff, calc's and all about these hose fittings but.... As long as your making them I assume your heading for one of these styles?
(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll221/dividedhead/Crap-o-Cad/fittings.jpg)

Hopefully you can make out a pictorial form of what Jason was saying???

Sorry about the true C-o-C quality... It's 00:40!! 

Just make sure the wall of your fitting is thick enough to take the pressure of the tightened clip too! Steel would be my choice!  (I know, sucking eggs! But I'd rather say it than not  :thumbup: )






Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 30, 2010, 08:41:34 PM
Ralph - the thread doesn't bother me at all, I've no drawbar; and if I need one (if the Plastic Hammer of Doom isn't hard enough to scare the chuck into place), then I'll make one for whatever thread I've got...

Your first C-o-C is exactly what I'm aiming for. The threaded end screws into the sump (and is purely there for safe keeping). The rubber hose is then jubilee'd onto the smooth sticky outy bit. It doesn't need much of a "nose", probably 1mm will be plenty.

I'm reasonably sure I can fit a 5/8" BSP screw thread into my chosen pipe layout at the sump end; it's a fair bit bigger than the 3/4 BSF I've been using, so there should be plenty of meat left (even using ali) to prevent snappage or stress fracturing - plus, since the pump & sump don't move relative to each other, and since the whole lot's under a vacuum in use, I can't see masses of stress in that area anyway. With the threading at a temporary impasse, I'm not convinced that a Loctited slip fitting wouldn't hold up.

WRT material; the fittings on the oil pump are aluminium. Two of them are mega-substantial hose fittings of some incredibly expensive variety; but the third is a plain spigot, 16mm ID, 18mm OD (or thereabouts), and that's not crushed. And again, as this is the vacuum side & not the pressure side, slightly loose pipes will suck themselves further on, rather than getting blown off (sure - very loose pipes will fall off, but that's another story), so one doesn't need to clamp them murder tight.

I hear you on the steel thing, though. I may make a spare set of mild steel fittings, just in case. But not until after I've finished the rest of it off...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Jasonb on March 31, 2010, 02:37:08 AM
You really should have a drawbar, the side pressure from the turning tool can make the taper come loose, the last thing you want is your collet chuck dropping out while you are machining something.

Jason
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on March 31, 2010, 03:38:03 AM
No worries  :thumbup: 

Figured you were going that direction. What with such cars and engine swaps you must have seen hundreds of hose fittings  ::)  :)

Only asked about the crush factor cause I found a steel one (~1mm wall thickness) on my car that had been abused by a previous owner  :hammer:



Drawbar.... Fully agreed with Jason, you really should make one! Could be kinda scary without  :bugeye:




Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on March 31, 2010, 06:34:12 PM
It was good to meet you Ade  :thumbup: brief but fun  :)


I just got back from a trip over to Ade's workshop....  it's a little bit bigger than mine  :jaw:   :) 

Swapped a collet holder and had a bit of a chat with Ade and his dad... Both very happy chilled out blokes  :thumbup:

The sump project looks very huge and awkward! But fun too! The wax stuff is brilliant, I had no idea it would be so strong and light!


I don't envy you your next challenge with the tapers either Ade, your going to have fun finding a boring bar long enough!

Thinking about it, you only need to drill a hole the narrow size of the MT3 taper through the blank and then make the taper ~4" long (whatever the MT length is?)  so not such a huge boring bar really  :scratch:



Snowing here again, 1" on the local roads, much fun the last 2 miles home, the back of the motor stepping out at the slightest hint of power  :headbang:   :bugeye:
Usually surprises the muppets driving 4 feet of my arse end!  :lol:



We will have to find a day in the future (probably best a warm one!!) that allows a longer time to chat.... at only 30 mins away it's not a bad run  :)





Take it easy, have fun with the tool making tomorrow :dremel:






Ralph.



Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 31, 2010, 07:19:15 PM
Cheers Ralph, it was great to put a face to the name, and I don't envy you your car in this weather.... it'd be a scream round Oulton though.. you'll have to book a track day (if you can get the locks to work, that is!  :lol:)

I like the way you say "you only need to drill a hole the narrow size of the MT3 taper through the blank", like it'll be easy or something... You do realise I cut myself an 8" piece for my blank? I do have some long(ish) drills (not to mention Da Monster), not sure I've got any 8" ones though...

Hmmm. I guess we'll find out tomorrow....

I'll start a new thread for this project, just on the billion to one chance that another Edgwick owner ever graces these pages & needs a sleeve...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Jasonb on April 01, 2010, 02:38:49 AM
If its a sleeve to take that collet colder you only need the through hole large enough to clear the drawbar as thats all that will be going through the hole. Unless I'm missing something.

Jason
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on April 12, 2010, 04:10:49 PM
Hmm, it seems to have been a while since I did anything on this project... haven't really had much workshop time recently. Although there's no excuse other than pure bone idleness for not doing owt over the weekend...


So, anyway, after a few calculations & stuff, I canted the angle plate up & milled away the bulk of the interior side wall material on one side:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/132-MillingOutTheCentre.jpg)

There's about another 0.5mm to take in each axis to get them spot on - I'll do that with a finishing cutter (not the rippa, which was used today), just to get a nice smoooth surface. Hopefully, that'll be tomorrow's job, then I can flip it over & do the other side.

Interestingly, the surface (again) looks worse in the photo than it is in reality; there's a few ridges in the nearest hollow (just me being lax in pulling the quill right down to the stop, I think), but the others are again dead smooth to the touch. I'm hoping they'll be even nicer when I finish with a "proper" cutter...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on April 13, 2010, 12:59:16 PM
Looks alright from here Ade  :thumbup:


I passed your place yesterday afternoon, had a job bout 200yrds away!  Too busy to stop though  :ddb:   Might be back over there soonish though, gave 3 quotes to people the same street! Not that I'd prob' be able to stop then either.... Working with the bosses son and the fact that he's not quite into the machining or motors games might make that awkward  ::)

Still.... I was there  :)


Hope all has gone to plan, have fun  :thumbup:






Ralph.


Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: gldwight on April 19, 2010, 02:38:46 AM
Wow what a project!

Impressive workmanship and engenuity.
Must be very nice to have all those fine machine's & tooling to use.
I wouldn't know how it feels.

Is this the end at this point?  OR has another thread been started?

I admire your ability.  One of these days with a bit more pratice you'll
"make a machinist"  (IF you find one and she's willing that is! haha!)

Wishing you the best finish possible.
George
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on April 19, 2010, 04:53:26 PM
Thanks George - it's been a journey, I have to say... The thread here is ongoing, things have just slowed down recently for various reasons, mostly due to laziness if I'm honest... plus a modicum of frustration with the lathe. Hopefully, sometime this week I'll get a chance to finish off digging out the slopes & move on to the next operations.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: gldwight on April 22, 2010, 04:50:47 AM
Ade:

I fully understand such situations.  Have one nearing completion myself that's been going since
early January.  Between snow storms and back ache's, running out of operating cash and such
other delays. 
Seems like these projects all have a life of their own.
Wish you well,
George
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Fred Bloggs on May 18, 2010, 05:42:45 AM
AdeV

Hope everythings ok? as I've been enjoyed the thread but you've not posted anything for weeks :(

Fred

Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on May 18, 2010, 08:49:01 AM
Hi Fred,

Sorry, other "issues" are at work at the moment, keeping me away from the machines  :(

I hope normal service will be resumed soon...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Fred Bloggs on May 18, 2010, 11:37:21 AM
Cool :headbang:

Fred
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on July 10, 2010, 03:38:28 PM
Yikes, 2 months (nearly) without an update.  :poke:

Well, I'm back  :wave: and I even made a little progress...

First job was to find where I'd put the mill:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/133-WheresTheMill.jpg)

This is what happens when you sell a car which is buried deep in the corner of the building, everything has to be moved or blocked in to clear a path out... Add the fact I had to move everything out of my (now demolished) office, & before I could move it back into the replacement Portacabin office I got blocked in with yet another broken car (Dad - if you're reading this, get it SORTED!  :whip:)

Anyhow, a bit of sweat & cursing later:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/134-AhThereItIs.jpg)

The sump has been put back on the machine, everything's dialled in straight, and the correct angle (33.7o) set on the angle plate:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/135-SetupFinishPockets.jpg)

Note the crib sheet on the DRO to stop me over-shooting... The cutter is a 12mm "ripper" cutter, which removes aluminium faster than the BBC got shot of Jonathon "Irritating B*$£&#d" Ross. So, a bare hour & a half later:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/136-PocketsFinished.jpg)

The sharp-eyed of you may notice a small annoyance:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/137-SortOf.jpg)

Yup, I managed to put one (both, actually, but the other by only a smidge) of the clamps too far into the piece, which interfered with the cut. However, as I still have a 5mm skim to take off the top of the entire piece, I figure I can let that slide for now. If there's any left over after the skim, I could probably just hand-file it off.


Next up, the oil channels; these will slope up from the drain holes, then take off across the top to the head drains (you can see the pilot holes for the head drains, one either side of the clamp, in the picture above). I had hoped to do one tonight, but I needed to move the angle plate forward on the table, and it's nearly beer o'clock, so that will have to wait... Hopefully, not quite so long this time.

 :thumbup:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: jim on July 10, 2010, 04:26:17 PM
good to see an update!!

i know exactly what you mean about time!!!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Stilldrillin on July 10, 2010, 04:47:32 PM
Very nice to see you`re back with us/ to it, Ade!  :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Rob.Wilson on July 10, 2010, 05:17:31 PM
About time Ade  :poke: :poke: :poke: :poke:  :D

Good to see you back on the job  :thumbup:

Rob
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Dean W on July 10, 2010, 08:51:58 PM
Great to have you back at it, Ade.  I watch a number of projects here that are my favorites.
This is one of my "favorites of the favorites".   
Keep at it!  This is such a good one!

Dean
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on July 11, 2010, 12:44:51 PM
 Hi Ade  :wave:

Bout time too (he said hiding, as he hasn't finished bu6637 all for an age!)

I drove past your place working on Friday, figured I'd have to give you a nudge  :poke: just to see if you were still with us  ::)  :)



Looking good.... All except the clamp  :(



Glad you've got it back in order.... Thought you might have rushed through it to get out for a race season.... Next year now then?




Looking forward to seeing how the rest takes shape :thumbup:




Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on July 11, 2010, 04:11:19 PM
Thanks chaps... I'll try not to let it go on too long, I have my own engine now, so the 2nd sump will have to be made pretty soon after this one...

Ralph - I don't know whether the car will be out again this season. Dad would say "yes, of course it will".... but we shall see. It had better be off the bloody ramps before the end of the year, I want to get my car moving now! Feel free to drop in any time (except Wednesday morning as I won't be here...)

I'm not too worried about the clamp. I made up for it somewhat with today's progress, tempered by the untimely death of the shop vacuum cleaner, which expired in a fusillade of crackles & a huuge cloud of smoke.

Anyway, on with the show. First job was to do some head-scratching, trying to work out the angle I needed to cut the drain slots at. Eventually, I gave up trying to figure it on a sketch, & drew myself a 2x scale version - which had the advantage that I could check the angle by both measurement & calculation:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/138-Trig-ugh.jpg)

19.9o was a surprise, I was expecting a much steeper angle than that. Looks like I wasted £10 buying a 6" long 18mm end mill... I can easily make that cut with my regular 12mm ripper. So, lob it all on the mill, looks like it landed in about the right place:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/139-SetupReady.jpg)

Note the clamps are further back this time  :hammer:

A bit of :dremel: later, and the 1st two channels are done:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/140-FirstChannels.jpg)

The left-most pair of drain holes will be channeled into the wide right-hand slot; the second leftmost drain hole will go into the single width left-hand slot. I've not decided yet whether they'll slope in or just be flat... the slope would be preferable, but will be an absolute bitch to do, it'll either mean mounting the rotary table on the angle plate (THAT would be an interesting challenge), or manually setting the sump at an angle on the angle plate & clamping it down. I'll have a think about that one. There are times I wish I'd bought a CNC mill....

Anyway, a bit more trig got the second angle, and I did the remaining drains that empty on this side of the sump:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/141-SecondChannels.jpg)

The four drains towards the bottom edge of that picture need their slots cutting in from the other side, hence the work is off the mill again. It's late, again, so that'll be tomorrow's job.

 :wave:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Brass_Machine on July 11, 2010, 10:48:38 PM
WooHoo! Ade is back!!

Watching in anticipation!

Eric
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on July 12, 2010, 03:24:34 PM
Nice work once again Ade  :thumbup:


I'll see if I can stop some time... Always working! always in a hurry to get to another job  :whip:

I'll have to come over there one evening, put the world to rights a bit and hopefully have a better drive out and back with no snow!  :)


Hopefully it won't take too long to complete and then the one for your car can be done (a little quicker second time around?) and we can hear/see some racing taking place  :ddb:  :headbang:







Ralph.





Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on July 12, 2010, 03:28:57 PM
Yep, some racing would be nice....

No machining tonight, no way of cleaning up the mess  :bang: Tomorrow perhaps...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on July 14, 2010, 04:15:04 PM
Woo, Freecycle came up trumps, and I picked up a cheapie hoover today for £nuppence. It'll do until I build that cyclone thingy...

To celebrate, I finished off the sloped head drain paths; you can see them in this pic:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/142-DrainSlopesComplete.jpg)

The black arrowed lines (just about visible) show which hole drains into where. I just have to decide now whether I mill them with a flat bottom (easy), or a sloped bottom (complicated - well, more awkward than complicated I suppose). Flat is currently favourite...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Dean W on July 14, 2010, 09:44:41 PM
Flat!
Really, the correct statement would be;  Does it matter?  It seems like the oil will pretty
much find it's way down to the bottom.

Glad you found a new vacuum chip sucker!

Dean
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on July 17, 2010, 02:20:48 PM
Thanks Dean - flat it is... for the simple reason it was going to be too hard to use the angle plate with the rotab on top....

In fact, the size of the sump makes it chuffing difficult to attach to the rotab at the best of times (see the fun I had with the plastic sump, several pages ago); so I came up with an alternative. It doesn't leave me much headroom, but it does mean I can spin the rotary table, see the angles AND keep my knuckles intact:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/143-DrainSetup.jpg)

The biggest problem is, that rotary table is horrific. It doesn't have any means of locking it for one thing, so I have to really keep a sharp eye on it to make sure any slack is taken up & that it doesn't try to wander off course... I'd planned to try to bring this one back into reasonable working order, but I'm thinking it might be easier just to buy a better one. Anyway, grumbles aside, I got 6 of the 9 drain holes done:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/144-Drains3todo.jpg)

Unfortunately, I'll have to take the sump off & turn it around to do those last three, I just don't have enough Y-axis travel to reach them. Tomorrow's job...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on July 17, 2010, 05:46:47 PM
Nice super high set up  :bugeye:  :jaw:  :bugeye:



It's definitely looking more like a sump every day  :thumbup:     Always a bu663r when you run out of "Y"  :bang: 





Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Rob.Wilson on July 18, 2010, 03:49:25 AM
 :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:  Nice one Ade  :thumbup:  ,, How many hours do you reckon you have in the sump up to now ?

Cheers Rob  :thumbup:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on July 18, 2010, 06:36:40 AM
Ralph - it IS a bit high, isn't it? Fortunately, it's also exceptionally heavy... I can only just get the rotab on the mill unassisted, and the angle plate's not much lighter; so I wasn't worried about stability. And i didn't even think about the maximum load on the mill until just now  :doh: but I think it will be OK...

Rob - I honestly don't know... but if you count the initial carving up of the ali block, then there's maybe 35-40 hours so far. A lot of that is fannying about, mind, working out how to do stuff, and poking at my rusty trigonometry abilities to try to get some angles out. I expect future sumps (mine is next  :dremel:) to be a lot quicker in the making.

One thing I still haven't looked at is the whole structure which goes at the back of the sump (where the tabs are sticking out).... that's going to add a few hours...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Rob.Wilson on July 18, 2010, 06:54:04 AM
Hi Ade

Thats not bad going  :thumbup:  ,,,,,,,,,,, nothing wrong with a bit fannying about,,,its some thing i excel at   :lol: :lol: :lol: ,,,,,and your going to do it all again  :bugeye:   :bow: :bow:

Wonder what the sump will weigh when all is done ?  what i mean is how much of the original stock has been removed ,,,fare bit i reckon  :dremel:

Cheers Rob 
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on July 18, 2010, 04:55:22 PM

Thats not bad going  :thumbup:  ,,,,,,,,,,, nothing wrong with a bit fannying about,,,its some thing i excel at   :lol: :lol: :lol: ,,,,,and your going to do it all again  :bugeye:   :bow: :bow:

Wonder what the sump will weigh when all is done ?  what i mean is how much of the original stock has been removed ,,,fare bit i reckon  :dremel:


I don't mind doing it again... I learnt lots doing the wax model, I've learnt lots more doing this version, and doubtless I'll learn even more on my version. With any luck, I'll have the machining times down to something sensible by then, and I can offer the sump as a commercial item on which I can make some actual money.... maybe. I think I might need a CNC machine to do that justice...

As for the weight: You're right that there will be a lot less metal when I'm finished, although just how much remains to be seen. The customer is hinting that he'd quite like it to be finned, which will obviously mean it's heavier than a non-finned version; but compared to the original block, much lighter. I'll weigh it when I'm done, and I have a similar-sized block waiting in the wings, so I can give you a good idea.



Meanwhile, tonight's mercifully brief update is as follows: I turned the sump around on the rotab & cut the remaining three oil guides. Then cleared the mill of ancillaries, bolted the sump end-on, aligned, and chopped the back edge to dimension. I also took the sharp bit off the pointy tab, so it's a bit more symmetrical.

Here's the sump as I'm taking the second of 3 finishing cuts, using my super-long 18mm cutter:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/145-TrimmingBack1.jpg)

And the same cut, from the other side:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/146-TrimmingBack2.jpg)


Finally, after cleaning everything up a bit, I glued the 3 plugs into the front. They'll need at least 24 hours to cure properly, fingers crossed that the Loctite does it's stuff...

More news as it happens...  :coffee:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on July 25, 2010, 06:49:26 AM
OK, so I did a bit more on this yesterday afternoon, after the GP qualifying.. First job was to mill off the end of the plugs, so I would have a nice flat plate again:

First cuts, with a ripper, took me to within 0.5mm of flat:
(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/147-TrimPlugEnds.jpg)

The final 0.5mm was taken with a regular end mill. Looks like I overshot by a tiny amount:
(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/148-PlugEndsTrimmed.jpg)

The next job is to drill the cross-holes; these will bring the oil flow out to the side of the sump. The setup is "interesting" to say the least:
(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/149-SetupDrillCrossholes.jpg)

Lucky I never finished that taper adapter clamp for the lathe, as here it is helping to hold the sump down  :lol:

Final photo for today, I centre-drilled the three holes:
(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/150-SpotCrossHoles.jpg)


No pics, but I then drilled the short (85mm) hole with a 5mm, 10mm and finally a 5/8" drill. Repeated for the 2nd hole (105mm). Unfortunately, drilling through the plug, the 5/8" drill knocked the piece that's supposed to separate the two holes, out of place  :(

Therefore, plan "B" will now occur: I'll have to drill into the plugs from the underside, between the side holes, tap them & insert a bolt. That won't prevent them from unsticking when drilled, but it should stop the plug portion from wandering out of the hole. So long as the outer plugs stay firmly glued up, I can live with it I think. More later... after the GP.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on July 26, 2010, 07:50:47 PM
Disaster Averted.....
...or, On The Importance Of Taking Notes

I don't know when I made the mistake. Probably on Saturday, seeing as I didn't do anything on Sunday. Or maybe it was when I made the plugs. I will never know...

Having glued the plugs in the other week, it occurred to me I hadn't made a note of how long they were. After some head-scratching, a plan was hatched. I shoved a piece of welding rod down each hole, and marked it where it met a convenient rib. By withdrawing the rod & laying it flat on the sump, I could see the end point & mark/measure accordingly. The plugs ended 20mm, 50mm and 80mm deep as applicable. Great, says I, and made the above centre drills at 20, 50 & 80mm. I then drilled the 50 & 80mm holes... because they were the shorter (& thus easier) ones to do.

By random good fortune, I didn't drill the 3rd hole, instead I went out and had tea in a pub in Wales...


Today, I drew up those holes on my Visio master plan set - and discovered that the 20mm hole (which is ~16mm in diameter, and therefore would be around 12mm from the front edge of the sump) would, in fact, foul the mounting holes (which are drilled all the way through the block - those being 6mm in diameter & 9.5mm in from the edge; a 0.5mm overlap...) This would have holed the front of the sump, causing all kinds of mayhem and annoyance....


The solution is not elegant, but as I've already drilled two of the holes, is the only one open to me: I've moved the hole inboard by 3mm; thus providing 2.5mm clearance from the mounting hole, which should be plenty. In hindsight, the cross-holes should have been a further 8mm inboard; as it is I've centered the drill on the end of the plugs, instead of measuring to "just miss" the end of each one - which would have been a far better solution.

Still, at least I didn't scrap the sump. A close shave, that one...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Stilldrillin on July 27, 2010, 03:30:55 AM

Still, at least I didn't scrap the sump. A close shave, that one...

By `ek Ade!  :bugeye:

THAT mustn`t happen now....... (http://serve.mysmiley.net/sad/sad0013.gif) (http://www.mysmiley.net/free-animal-smileys.php)

Wishing you Good Luck, and clear thinking, from now on.......  :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on July 27, 2010, 04:47:35 AM
Sounds like lots of fun there Ade    :coffee: :smart:  :doh: :thumbup:   is how I see it in smileys  :)


Very happy you didn't lose it this far in  :clap:




As David said "Wishing you Good Luck, and clear thinking, from now on.......   :thumbup: "     :med: 





Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on August 14, 2010, 03:44:37 AM
Just a quick update: I'm still dissolving the taps away... they're taking their sweet time. After syringing in a little conc nitric acid, and waiting 24 hours:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/151-TapsDissolving.jpg)

Clean away the brown snot, re-load with acid, wait another 24h, rinse & repeat...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: madjackghengis on August 19, 2010, 11:31:03 AM
Hi Ade, I've been following your log on the sump from the beginning, and while it is not exactly related to anything I'm doing myself right now, your work has certainly been intriguing and informative, demonstrating how much that can be done if one does not follow the petty recommendations of teachers and instructors, as to limits of equipment and machines.  My one big question is related to the taps you are removing with the use of nitric acid.  I don't seem to be able to find the point at which you broke them, and needed them removed.  It's a minor matter, and I am interested in the concentration of the acid, as I remove broken taps on a regular basis, but I am in the dark still on when the calamity occured.  I am very interested in the success of your acid method of removing them, as I've never used that method, but if it works well, would add it to my tool kit, but the missing link, the breakage, and how it occured would be of interest as well.  You've definitely shown the possibilities of working beyond the advertised limits of the machine, and have turned out a fine piece of work, particularly considering the constant set ups, and tear downs necessary.  :thumbup: :beer: mad jack
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on August 23, 2010, 07:42:51 AM
Hi Ade, I've been following your log on the sump from the beginning, and while it is not exactly related to anything I'm doing myself right now, your work has certainly been intriguing and informative, demonstrating how much that can be done if one does not follow the petty recommendations of teachers and instructors, as to limits of equipment and machines. 

Thanks Jack - I guess it helps that I don't have any teachers (other than the readers & contributors to this forum, who are usually too late to warn me of the dangers on account I've already done it...), so as far as I can tell, if I can physically fit it on the machine, then it must be possible....

Quote
My one big question is related to the taps you are removing with the use of nitric acid.  I don't seem to be able to find the point at which you broke them, and needed them removed.  It's a minor matter, and I am interested in the concentration of the acid, as I remove broken taps on a regular basis, but I am in the dark still on when the calamity occured. 

Oops, I see I didn't write up what I was trying to do, at least on this thread...

Basically, having plugged the end holes with the specific-length plugs, I then set up to drill into the side. I drilled the first hole, and everything went well. But when I drilled the second hole, the end of the long plug (which I drilled through) came loose, and migrated into the first hole, effectively blocking it. Here's a couple of C-o-Cs:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/152-PlugBreak1.jpg)

The hatched areas represent the plugs, the shaded the holes. This is the view looking down from the top. I drilled the left-most hole first, then the middle hole; that's when this happened:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/153-PlugBreak2.jpg)

Using a piece of welding rod, I managed to shove the plug piece back to where it should be, I then decided to drill into the plugs, tap them, and screw in a length of threaded rod, the idea being this would hold each plug section in place - both while I drilled the final hole, and also in service. The plugs don't have to be 100% oil tight internally, "near enough" will do - although the outer bungs DO need to be oil tight, otherwise leaks will ensue. Fortunately, the outer bungs will be easy to replace & re-glue if required.

Quote
I am very interested in the success of your acid method of removing them, as I've never used that method, but if it works well, would add it to my tool kit,

Well, my experience so far would suggest it's viable IF you can wait the requisite days (weeks) it's taking... I'm not too fussed about the timescale, since I've got other projects I can get on with. If this were a production system, I'd have drilled the buggers out by now... The acid I'm using is, to the best of my knowledge, 78% concentrated - i.e. white fuming nitric acid - not the red stuff that Lew mentions. I don't believe it's possible to buy more concentrated stuff "over the counter". It requires hand protection & breathing protection when in use, and common sense and a fully heightened sense of caution goes a long way towards using the stuff safely.

Quote
You've definitely shown the possibilities of working beyond the advertised limits of the machine, and have turned out a fine piece of work, particularly considering the constant set ups, and tear downs necessary.  :thumbup: :beer:

Much appreciated, thanks :) As I say, ignorance (in this case, of the limits of the machine) is a great help...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: madjackghengis on August 23, 2010, 12:11:02 PM
Hi Ade, I appreciate the answers, you've cleared up what I have up to now, just assumed, and I fully understand your difficulties with plugs, having done similar jobs, and had to tie up loose plugs before.  If you are following my build on the radial engine, I removed a number of #4 taps physically, and had one I ended up milling out a pocket, pulling out the pieces, and tigging it back up, and had I known about the acid, I would have allowed the time and etched it out, as I still don't like the reminder the weld lines give me of that broken tap.  On larger taps, I'm accustomed to being successful getting them out welding nuts of larger sizes to them, or using a make-shift EDM set up, because I'm too lazy to jump to the EDM project I haven't got to yet, but using acid would definitely be the easy way, from the sound of it.  I'm looking forward to seeing the sump on an engine, and it running, hopefully soon. :nrocks: :thumbup: mad jack
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Powder Keg on September 24, 2010, 03:08:47 PM
This is a great thread AdeV. I just got done reading the whole thing :loco: You are doing a great job!!! I like seeing people push machines to their limits and beyond! Any updates :wave:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: MattTheHat on September 30, 2010, 11:20:28 PM
You, sir, have balls the size of church bells!

Amazing stuff, Ade.


-Matt
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on October 01, 2010, 07:02:24 PM
Quote
You, sir, have balls the size of church bells!

But hopefully not the shape!  :lol:




How goes the dissolving of the taps Ade?




Ralph.

Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on October 01, 2010, 08:20:55 PM
OK, a brief update: Nothing new so far  :(

For whatever reason, the taps are still there, obstinately enough. I don't know if it's lack of surface area that's caused the dissolving trick to fail, or quantity of steel vs. the quantity of acid I can get in there; maybe it needs some heat.

So, I think it's time to dig them out mechanically. John (Bogs) suggested using a hole cutter to come down around the tap & remove it that way. Unfortunately, I don't have any suitable hole cutters, so I think I'll do something similar, but will mill a chunk away around the taps (enough to get something on them to remove them with. I'll then put a straight pin down to hold the plugs - or, plan C(2), a tapered pin (assisted into place with a large hammer), or Plan Q(4), a straight shank pin with a plug of some kind glued/screwed/otherwise held in place.

It's high time I got back on with this project... so, watch this space...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: stovebolt on October 03, 2010, 12:27:28 AM
 I couldn't find the size of your taps but if they aren't too big, you could make a hole cutter or annular cutters I think they're called, this is the only pic I could find, this was made specifically to locate springs , but it's the same principle.  I just drilled/ reamed a piece of drill rod/silver steel  and cut teeth in it with a dove tail, you also might want to cut some flutes.   If you try it I would recommend you counter bore the ID to just a little short of the teeth so the plug doesn't friction weld and  while using clear chips often.       

(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/dewat/cut8.jpg)   



 
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on December 14, 2010, 04:52:12 PM
Well, after FAR too long a hiatus, while waiting for the nitric acid to do something... anything... I gave up waiting & got back in the saddle...

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/154-TapsGone.jpg)

Clockwise from top left:

1 - Milled down to the broken off taps, lower & lower until I was pretty much underneath them

2 - Here we can almost make out the snapped off taps, sticking up. Not sticking up far enough to get the pliers on them, unfortunately

3 - After a while, I managed to pull out the remnants. Cleaned up the bottom of the hole (well, a bit anyway)...

At this point, I was scratching my head wondering what to use as a dowel pin ( I still need to pin those plugs, remember)... Then, inspiration! I have several broken 6mm cutters ((http://helmies.org.uk/embarassed.gif)), so I ground a couple of broken ends down to length and...

4 - there they are, very gently battered into place with a hammer & punch. A nice tight fit... but not so tight as I'd worry about them coming out under the stress & vibration of the engine running at full chat - so, I shall make a block to go over the top, and that will be glued/screwed/loctited in place.



Anyway, with the taps out, and the plugs pinned, there's no more excuses.... I can now proceed.


Onwards!

(erm, after Christmas probably...)
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: NickG on December 14, 2010, 05:16:40 PM
Ade,

Good to see you're back on track with this now though. I absolutely hate anything to do with cars at the moment due to all of mine being broken, but I'll still be watching!

Just about to go and try some of the graphite you kindly sent for the stirling, the wife will be wondering what the hell happened to the bed sheets soon :lol:

Nick
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on December 14, 2010, 05:21:23 PM
Bout time  :poke:   :lol:


Looks like it'll do nicely  :thumbup:


After Xmas!!?  I'm planning on that being the time I get a bit of peace and quiet in my workshop!  Got the sparky coming on Sat am to wire up all my new strip lights and sockets  :zap:   I'll be able to work in the dark again (you know what I mean!?)




Looking forward to seeing this on the motor   :whip:    :thumbup:




Nick, You machining Graphite in bed?  I've often soldered sat on mine but not used the lathe!  :lol:






Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Mike Cole on December 17, 2010, 02:14:32 AM
Ade
 Just read this thread over a couple of days. I also tried the acid trick with a broken tap. I tried HSo2 ( if i rememeber my chemisty right) . Took a couple of days but it loosened it the end.
I will call in sometime as i am so close.

Mike
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: NickG on December 17, 2010, 03:40:17 AM
I was just about to embarrass myself with lack of chemistry knowledge then, so I googled it and I was right, it would have been embarrassing!  :doh: This acid must be bloomin strong to dissolve taps - sounds scary!

Ralph  :lol: I do know a fellow model engineer that had his lathe on a wheeled trolley that he wheeled from under the stairs and used in the kitchen though!  :jaw:

Nick

Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Mike Cole on December 17, 2010, 06:47:28 AM
Thinks I was wrong with my HSo2   :hammer::thinking more of H2SO4.

I did not try to disolve the whole tap ,just to  wiggle it out.

When I worked for the Oil Industry we had to boil some nasty stuff. Not nice having your lab

disolve around you.  We had the gardener mowing the lawn outside and the mower fell down a

hole as we disolved the drainage pipes. That was meant to be our clean discharge :zap:

I left as soon as possable

Mike
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: winklmj on December 17, 2010, 08:33:14 AM
A day late and a dollar short.

Know anything about electronics? You could build this next time:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GrizHFMinimill/photos/album/1530925054/pic/1072364455/view?picmode=original&mode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&dir=asc

(http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/3032973/hr/1072364455/name/MEW_117_p51.jpg)
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: NickG on December 19, 2010, 03:43:33 AM
I thought you meant that which is sulphuric acid, apparently h2so2 is a reduction of that, I thought it was hydrogen sulphide! No wonder I dropped a level chemistry after a year!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on January 12, 2011, 04:40:48 PM
Interesting stuff chaps, thanks for all the acid comments (ho ho ho); I'm not sure what effect H2SO4 (Sulphuric acid) would have on aluminium, nor HCl (hydrochloric). The good news is, the Nitric acid (HNO3) has done very little damage to the ali (a bit of leaching which will clear when I skim the top). It was working its way through the taps, but too slowly for my liking.

Winklmj - I've heard of spark erosion, but don't know enough about them really... I'll definitely take a look at building one though, I should have enough electronics ability to do that.

Anyway.... on with the show; did a bit tonight, one of those jobs which I wouldn't have needed to do had I not buggered up the taps in the first place.... making a plug to fit the hole.

First operations were to mill a block of ali down to size, then part it off its stock:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/155-PluggingTheHole.jpg)

Then I used a radius cutter to get as close to 6mm radius as possible; unfortunately, I don't have a 3mm radius cutter, so a 1/8" had to be substituted in. It's only a few thou ought, and this isn't a size critical piece.

So, once the corners were all radiused (roughly) & the burrs filed off:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/156-Plug.jpg)

It nearly fit:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/157-NearlyFits.jpg)

And, after an hour in the freezer, and few vigorous meetings with the Plastic Hammer of Battering Things Until They Bl**dy Well Fit, it DID fit:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/158-ItDoesNow.jpg)

 :D

There's a smidgeon of Loctite in there too; and tomorrow I'll drill, countersink, tap and screw the piece into the hole as well, just to make absolutely sure it doesn't come loose.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on January 12, 2011, 04:51:06 PM
Hmmm Looks like it was meant to be there!  :thumbup:


You home then?
Or did you take some work with you?  :lol:



Good to see you back on it  :dremel:   I wanna see this car running!  :poke:  :poke:





Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on January 12, 2011, 04:53:48 PM

You home then?
Or did you take some work with you?  :lol:


Don't worry, I haven't forgotten that I'm supposed to be phoning you.... I just had forgotten until now!  :doh:

Deffo tomorrow (not now, hungry, going home to eat...)
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on February 07, 2011, 05:20:57 PM
I've been  :poke: again..... so, a little more progress was made today. It'll be the start of the racing season soon, this sump needs to be finished...

So, where are we at? Well, I've taken about 5mm off the top, so that the engine side is now to dimension. I've taken a couple of mm off the bottom too, although there's between 8 and 11mms more can come off there yet. I'll certainly be taking 8 off, to bring the thickness to 50mm, not sure if it's worth pursuing the extra 3mm yet - the deepest hole on the inside is about 45mm; a 2mm floor thickness doesn't leave a lot to the imagination, although it would be plenty - provided there's no accidenally extra-deep holes anywhere  :zap:

So: Here's the obligatory occasional arty moody shot:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/159-ProgressSoFar.jpg)

Hey, I liked it. Here's one where you can see all the warts:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/160-Progress2.jpg)

I figured a trial fit on the engine might be a fun idea. It also ensures I've not over-cut anywhere when I rotate the engine through ~360 degrees. No metal-on-metal noises = A good thing. There'll be a gasket in there as well, so the innards will all clear nicely.

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/161-TrialFit.jpg)

The pipe sticking up shows the location of the oil pump. There will be 3 of those, albeit a bit shorter than that one (only a few cms), which will plug onto spigots in the side of the sump. That part will become clear later. I also thought I'd better make sure I could actually fit those pipes in, bearing in mind the cockup I made when drilling the side entry holes. Fortunately, there's plenty of room:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/162-PipeFitting.jpg)


So... I got to thinking about those tabs, as that's the next tricky bit of machining. And the first issue - I couldn't quite decide how far out the holes were from the side of the sump! A caliper from the centre of the hole to the edge of the sump suggested 12mm (so, with a sump width of 250mm, and the other hole the same distance away, 274mm centre-to-centre). But a steel rule reckoned 276mm from centre-to-centre (or edge-to-edge, whatever). How to resolve this 2mm dilemma?

Wax!

I broke out the waxy prototype, stuck it on the mill more-or-less straight, and decided to try the 276mm spacing (i.e. 13mm from each side):

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/163-WaxToTheRescue.jpg)

2 holes, 276mm apart. Trial-fit on the engine:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/164-PerfectFit.jpg)

Perfect  :thumbup:

Nice one, Machinable Wax :)

More tomorrow, I hope.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on February 07, 2011, 08:38:12 PM
 :ddb:


Back on it  :headbang:



Looks like it'll be very nice, very soon  :thumbup:



I'd leave it at the 8mm.... 5mm thick ali will take a bit of debris knock a lot better than a 2mm bit will..... Definitely! 



Right... Bed me thinks!



Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Dean W on February 07, 2011, 09:30:04 PM
Fitting up time, and it's all looking good, Ade.  Some to go yet, I know, but it sure is getting close.
What a job!

I like your "arty" shot, too. 
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: jim on February 07, 2011, 09:37:21 PM
i'm looking forward to this being finished, good work!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: NickG on February 08, 2011, 07:48:56 AM
Great to see you back on this Ade. Nice to see the trial fit too  :thumbup:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on February 08, 2011, 03:13:40 PM
Thanks chaps for the kind words, always appreciated  :D You'll make a metal mangler of me yet...


Speaking of which, it's time to look at the bit I've been putting off all this time (yes, even right back to the wax mockup)... that chunk at the back. The original sump has a fairly intricate casting which covers the flywheel & bolts to the gearbox bellhousing. This adds strength to the engine/gearbox unit, and keeps the crud & gravel off the flywheel. Whilst I won't be able to replicate the casting, I should be able to come up with something which at least acts as a cover, and adds some extra strength to the whole affair.

The first job, then, was to take one of the big arced pieces of ali I cut out of the original round piece, & chop it down to a more manageable size. Fortunately, Evolution do a range of TCT (Tungsten Carbide Tipped, I believe) blades which are rated to slice ali, at up to 3000 rpm. The blades are supposed to go in an Evolution circular saw, but keeping that thing straight whilst chopping into a 2.5" thick piece of ali proved to be nigh on impossible.... so, I stuck a blade in a broken down old table saw I found in the basement. It took 2 passes, but it did the job.

Next up, I used a tip handed to me by Bogs - and stuck a similar circular saw blade into a slitting saw arbor, and mounted it in the mill. Dial the RPMs up to 2300, and let 'er rip!

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/165-CarvingAluminium.jpg)

You can go through a piece of aluminium that big faster than a vindaloo goes through a dog. In fact, the only reason I didn't cut it full width in one pass was because it was too tall to clear the quill.

There are only 2 drawbacks to this method of cutting metal: 1) it makes a hell of a racket (good ear defenders are essential), and 2) the chips are officially hotter than the surface of the sun, so you really need an asbestos neck. In the photo above, I'm actually standing about 10 feet away from the mill, and using a garden sprayer* to fire occasional bursts of WD40 at the blade, hence the smoke coming out of the back side.

Anyway - long story short, before you know it the block is roughed to size & ready for the next bit of headscratching. This next photo shows you what I'm trying to achieve:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/166-DesiredResult.jpg)

Basically, I shall cut the ali to approximately the radius drawn on it. It will be bolted into place where shown, and slots milled down where required. I'll also hollow out the back of it so it's a bit lighter.

So now all I have to do is chip the rust off my maths skills, work out the diameter of the circle from the chord I have (350mm across by 122mm high in case you're wondering) which will tell me where it has to go on the rotary table so I can cut a nice smooth arc.

More tomorrow!


PS:

* - Another of John's excellent tips. One of these things: (http://www.albancleaning.com/imgprods/prochem/acs-cn3405.jpg) is great for firing WD40 about the place. You can set it to a really fine mist; or screw the nozzle out to send firehose-sized blasts at an overheating cutter...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Stilldrillin on February 08, 2011, 03:26:14 PM
Nice to see you're back to it Ade!

That big lump's progressing/ developing nicely......  :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on September 18, 2011, 04:28:54 PM
Good grief, another 7!!! months have passed, where does the time go?

Although I have many excuses, I shall deploy only the "moving shed" (which took between about March and July), and "mad busy at work" (August to present day).  That and most weekends have been out & about recently, so stealing valuable workshop time. Today was an exception, so I finally got something done....

I've been procrastinating about the "ears" on this sump for ages. I finally spent a bunch of time measuring up:

(http://listerengine.com/pics/sump/167-WorkResumes.jpg)

The green bit is 9mm forwards from the back of the sump (the blue bit); so I will have to mill this bit away, otherwise the gearbox will not mount properly. I'm not sure what (if anything) the hole is/does at the root of the "ear", but as the gasket dodges it, so shall I.

So - a quick(ish) crap-o-cad (Mk2 - with rulers!):

(http://listerengine.com/pics/sump/168-ShapeOfEars.jpg)

It didn't take me long to decide I wasn't going to bother with the secondary cutout; way too complicated & time consuming for, ultimately, very little benefit. I mounted the sump on the rotary table so I could do all of the operations without having to physically shift it; what I did have to do was pull the mill head forwards to do the first ear, and backwards to do the 2nd. Each cut was done full-width (9mm) with a 0.675" cutter (the only one I can find capable of cutting full-depth, that isn't a roughing cutter, and which makes a reasonable stab at a surface finish). The climb cuts (not shown) were a good test of rotab & mill locking... to their credit, neither moved at all.

(http://listerengine.com/pics/sump/169-CuttingEars.jpg)

After taking the back section in by the required amount, the rotary table was orientated to the appropriate angle, allowing the "front" of the "ear" to be milled off, leaving the final shape:

(http://listerengine.com/pics/sump/170-EarsDone.jpg)

I forgot to take pictures of the making of the semi-circular piece; but it ended up OK. The next picture shows where it will sit in relation to the sump, there are several cutouts necessary to allow access to the bolts at the back of the sump. There's some more shaping to do on the ears (they need to more-or-less follow the slope of the semi-circle to finish off that piece; and various holes to drill & tap for gearbox bolts; not to mention the bolts that will actually hold the piece to the sump...

(http://listerengine.com/pics/sump/171-WithGearboxSeal.jpg)

Note the "bump" in the side of the sump, just next to the root of the ear - yes, it IS deliberate, to clear that there hole...

Hopefully, I'll have some time during the week to make more progress.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on September 23, 2011, 03:01:38 PM
A small amount of progress:

(http://listerengine.com/pics/sump/172-SpigotsGoHere.jpg)

The cut-out is to allow me to mount the spigots to which the outlet pipes will be connected within the overall plan of the sump. There's about 2cms before the plugs start getting in the way, I intend to expand each hole to around 3/4" (because that's the nearest I have to a 19mm end mill...), then tap them 1/2" BSP. The spigots will have an external 1/2" bsp thread (tapered, if I'm feeling brave) and be drilled/reamed through for 5/8" or 16mm to match the tubes.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on September 24, 2011, 05:18:53 PM
More progress! At this rate, it'll be finished sometime....

First job, expand those holes:

(http://listerengine.com/pics/sump/173-ExpandSpigotHoles.jpg)

3/4" end-mill, plunged straight down on the quill, about 2cms. Next job, thread the holes. Annoyingly, the only 1/2" BSP tap I have is a little stubby one, so any kind of power tapping was out of the question. The quill proved useful to get the thing started straight & true. The holes tapped very easily, and - this time - no broken taps!

(http://listerengine.com/pics/sump/174-TapSpigotHoles.jpg)

Earlier, I'd turned up a spigot out of a scrag end of steel I scored off a mate (thanks Pete!  :wave:), tapped one end 1/2" BSP to suit, the other turned down to 3/4" to suit the flexible pipe, leaving a bit of a flange in the middle which I'll turn into a hex bolt of whatever size ends up working:

(http://listerengine.com/pics/sump/175-SpigotAndPipe.jpg)

Couldn't resist a trial fit:

(http://listerengine.com/pics/sump/176-SpigotFits.jpg)

Woo :)

2 more spigots to turn, a bit of dividing head work to cut the hexes, and the entire "oil system" part of the sump will be complete!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on September 24, 2011, 06:20:37 PM
Ha! Just gave you a nudge in a message about this and then found it half done!

Nicely done chief. Looking good   :ddb:



Now then are you just trying to show off?

Quote
So - a quick(ish) crap-o-cad (Mk2 - with rulers!):
   

And you even have the prototype clipboard attachment not due out till early 2012!!!  Who have you been bribing?
 :lol:

You throw 'em and I'll hit 'em  :) 



Seriously... Very nice to see this moving along  :thumbup:




Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: doubleboost on September 24, 2011, 06:33:16 PM
That clutch looks like a serious bit of kit
2 settings in and out lol
very nicely done
John
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: sparky961 on September 25, 2011, 12:16:45 AM
Can I be just a tad more honest than most are comfortable with for a moment?  When I first saw this thread developing, I thought to myself "what a yahoo, taking that big slab of aluminum and cutting those parts from it".

After following it a bit more, I wish to give a formal head nod and repeal my first opinion.  I am hereby thoroughly impressed with what you did so far what that huge lump of metal.  Maybe even a bit jealous of the machinery, but isn't that usually the case?

Good job, and thanks for the inspiration. :)

-Sparky
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Stilldrillin on September 25, 2011, 02:26:35 AM
Backing up Sparky's comment.......

I'm having difficulty finding the words for serious, meaningful comment on this project.  :scratch:

It's the sort of thing we produced at work. A bit overwhelming for a hobby component!  :bugeye:


Ade. I admire your tenacity, and every part of method/ outcome you are showing, warts an all..... Blummin well done!  :clap: :clap: :thumbup:

David D

Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Anzaniste on September 25, 2011, 11:26:51 AM
I'm pleased to see this project back on the go. Seeing it earlier on is what hooked me into this splendid group.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on September 25, 2011, 05:18:24 PM
Wow, thanks guys, kind words indeed. When I started this project, I didn't really know what I was taking on. I didn't realise I'd be so close to the limits (in terms of size) of the Bridgeport; I just figured "it'll do it, no bother"... but, well, I've learned a lot along the way - some as a result of "suck it and see"; but lots more from all of you out there who've either commented directly; or who've I've liberally stolen techniques and knowledge from your own threads. Without this website, I couldn't have come as far as I have, in the relatively short "actual machining time" that I have.

Truly:  :nrocks:

Soooo anyway, I wasn't going to show the making of a spigot, 'cos it should only take 1/2 hour & be dead straightforward, right?



Yeah, right.

First up, I decided - perhaps unwisely - to use some scrap steel I happen to have. I think it used to be a hydraulic ram. I've no idea what it is, but it's pretty tough. It makes cool smoke though:

(http://listerengine.com/pics/sump/177-CutStockToSize.jpg)

So; chop it down to 1" over the whole spigot length; then cut a .600" long nose to 0.825", which is threaded with a 1/2" BSP die in a monster die holder:

(http://listerengine.com/pics/sump/178-TapBSP.jpg)

Using lots of oil, I power-tapped at 17rpm up to the last couple of turns, which were done by hand. Then, part the piece off. I'd hope to show a nice action shot of that, but the cutting oil can obscured the view. Shame, it made good smoke...

Moving on, I have a piece of steel pipe I'd tapped internally; so, chuck that up, and screw the spigot into it. I realised at this point I'd forgotten to relieve the end of the threads with the parting off tool, doh!, so it didn't quite sit true to the shoulder. Still, near enough..... The end is turned down to 0.750" for the pipe to slide over, then progressively drilled out to 5/8":

(http://listerengine.com/pics/sump/180-TurnCutDrill.jpg)

That should have been the final operation on the lathe, except for this one I needed to cut that shoulder... I used my ER32 collet chuck because it's pretty damn accurate, once you've found the best position for it in the 3 jaw. TIR was less than 0.002". I'm not sure if I get a prize for "The most chucks in use simultaneously" - the ER32 chuck in a 3-jaw in a 4-jaw....

(http://listerengine.com/pics/sump/181-CutShoulder.jpg)

Final actual operation is to use the dividing head on the mill to cut the flange into a hex shape, so I can graunch it up with a spanner. It turns out a 19 will fit perfectly:

(http://listerengine.com/pics/sump/182-CutHexForSpanner.jpg)

So, there we have them:

(http://listerengine.com/pics/sump/183-AllDone.jpg)

I should probably explain the black one.... it wasn't deliberate, my 19/32" drill went blunt in the middle of it (probably a lack of oil + not pushing it consistently enough); I did keep trying to push it through, but when the whole thing changed colour & the cutting oil ignited, I figured it was dead... Fortunately, I have enough other drills that I could bin that one & carry on... eventually, I got it cut. The heat had definitely hardened the metal though, it was noticably more difficult to mill the hex...

Anyhoo - here they are, three little piggies all in a row:

(http://listerengine.com/pics/sump/184-Installed.jpg)

And with some pipes on:

(http://listerengine.com/pics/sump/185-SpigotsComplete.jpg)

Turns out there's not quite enough room for a jubilee clip on that leftmost pipe, I'll have to mill a tiny (0.5mm at a guess) relief just to squeeze it in. Also, there's not enough space between the pipes to allow 2 jubilee clips to pass each other, so one of the tubes (probably the middle one) will have to be pinched "high"... There are 3 solutions to this dilemma: 1, use a thinner wall pipe; 2, next time, leave more space between the pipes; 3, make a longer spigot for the middle pipe, to allow the clip to sit further outboard. In the picture, the pipe is being pinched over the "bolt" section, which I'm not totally happy with.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: HS93 on September 25, 2011, 09:02:55 PM
are you going to solder a Barb on to stop the pipes  working there way off   nice job by the way .

peter
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on September 26, 2011, 04:16:02 AM
Hi Peter,

Thanks :) I hope I'm not boring too many people with multiple photos of what are, often, straightforward milling or turning ops...

I won't need to put barbs on this time; the pipe run is so short that it won't have room to shake off; and the pipes actually grip the spigots extremely well (so well, I had to unscrew the spigots with the pipes on, stick 'em in the vice to pull the pipe off again!). The other end of 2 of the 3 pipes is a meaty screw-on fitting which won't go anywhere, the 3rd is another spigot, but again, there's no-where for the pipe to go...

I'll put a photo up later today which will show you what I mean.

Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: madjackghengis on September 26, 2011, 11:33:02 AM
Hi Ade, it's good to see you back on it again, and getting so close to the end.  I was thinking about all the neat things I could make out of such a large chunk of aluminum, back when you started, but you've really made this a nice project, and done something unique, and that's what I enjoy about our hobby.  Very nice work, and very inovative ways to get around problems.  Well done if I may say so. :jaw: :beer: Cheers, mad jack
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on September 26, 2011, 02:25:02 PM
Thanks Jack, it's much appreciated :)

Peter, as this photo shows, the pipe run is very short:

(http://listerengine.com/pics/sump/186-Layout.jpg)

The 3 pipes are pretty much right next to each other, and I think it'll be impossible for them to shake loose under any circumstances.

No machining today I'm afraid, tomorrow I hope to start on the sloped bits.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Henning on September 27, 2011, 04:23:02 AM
Sweet mother of.... That's a lot of milling :bugeye:

Nice work!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: SPiN Racing on October 27, 2011, 12:23:26 PM
Beautiful work!
Very well done project! (Just read the entire thread.. well worth the read)
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on October 28, 2011, 04:00:00 AM
Thanks guys, it's much appreciated :)

I hope to have it finished very soon, but my day job has spilled over into machine shop time  - and since it pays better, I've reluctantly not been near the machines since that last post :( Currently in Turkey, and since I seem to have sprained/torn a muscle, it looks like it will be a few more days before I am fit to mill again.... grumble.

As soon as I'm back, and as soon as this damn muscle behaves, I'll be back on it; work is due to calm down a little bit from now on.... I hope...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on November 17, 2011, 07:42:18 PM
So is it finished yet?  :poke: 



 :) 
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on November 18, 2011, 05:08:42 AM
So is it finished yet?  :poke: 



 :)

No, damn it all.... the "muscle" was actually pneumonia, and (feeble excuse) it's been a bit nesh in the shop recently...

Hoping to make some progress this weekend...
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on November 18, 2011, 04:17:18 PM
OK, managed an hour or so in the shop tonight, in between "day" work, so there is a little progress to report, woohoo!

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/187-MountingHoles.jpg)

Drilled & tapped 2 holes, M10, and actually got them pretty much in the right place..... now, you might think that's not much of a challenge, but...

1) There wasn't enough Y-axis travel to get to both holes, without cranking the head backwards & forwards...
2) There wasn't nearly enough room to drill vertically - so I had to use my newly acquired 90o head - once again, I've managed to get the tooling required "just in time".

The piece that's bolted on is a part of the old sump, and is being used to make sure the holes are in the right place. Which, as I said, they pretty much are. Yay!

Next job is to drill & bolt on the semi-circular part, that covers up the gap in the bellhousing, provides a stand when the engine/box are out of the car, and also takes 2 further bolts to help hold the whole lot together....
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Dean W on November 18, 2011, 06:35:55 PM
This has been a marathon project, Ade.  Great to see it fit up to the engine, and getting close to completion.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: andyf on November 18, 2011, 07:19:18 PM
Glad to see you are up and at it again, Ade. It's a monster project, and (unless there's anything you are keeping quiet about) it still seems to be going to plan. Speaking of which, was there actually a plan in the sense of drawings or are you making it up as you go along, using the old sump as a model?

Pneumonia? You have been in the wars, what with the pleurisy you had a week or two ago.
 
Quote
it's been a bit nesh in the shop recently...

The shop is just a bit cold. You're nesh, but in the circs, that isn't surprising. I hope you are fully recovered.

Andy
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on November 18, 2011, 07:39:26 PM
Thanks for the kind comments, chaps  :thumbup:

Andy, it turned out it wasn't pleurisy, it was actually pneumonia - I'd misdiagnosed myself (oops). I think I caught it on the plane over to Turkey, because it first showed up on Wednesday (I flew out on Tuesday) & steadily got worse. By the Sunday, I couldn't even lie in bed, it was just too painful, and walking any more than 100yds was all but impossible.

Still, fair play to the NHS, they got me back on my feet in, relatively speaking, no time. I didn't even have to pay for the prescription. Mind you, I wouldn't recommend an overnight in hospital to anyone - hotels are much more restful...


As for the project.... I've pretty much been winging it. There are some drawings I did early on, e.g. showing the positions of the various holes, drains & milled out sections; and a few crap-o-cads with various other measurements, but for the most part it's just been a case of measure, think, cut. Anyway... so far, so good; once I've finished with the back piece, the plan is to cut away the edges (where the mounting holes are), then cut fins into the bottom; I will probably also shape the bottom so it slopes towards the edges. The main thing is, not to cut into any of the inner workings, that would be a disaster...


EDIT: Ironically, the most difficulty I'm having now is remembering where the drawings actually are, so I can get some bolt centres right!  :doh:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on November 19, 2011, 03:03:24 PM
Blimey, MORE progress?! At this rate, there's a danger this project might actually get finished!  :lol:  (Nah, no chance - ed)

So, today I pretty much finished the work on the semi-circular piece that mounts up to the bell-housing & mostly seals it from dirt & gravel ingress - last seen somewhere in the middle of page 11 (here (http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=2726.msg63564#msg63564)).

The first job was to cut some access channels, so that it's possible to reach the sump bolts with the part in place - essential on the original, desirable on my version as I plan to use lots of loctite to hold the main bolts in place...

Once again, the Gods of Tooling smiled upon me: I needed a long 18mm cutter, and the only one I have, although a roughing cutter, happens to be the longest endmill I've got - plenty of depth of cut:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/188-CuttingAccessHoles.jpg)

The piece is clamped as hard as I dared onto the sump, and luckily didn't move at all during each of the four cuts. The end mill is 5" long (to the lip you see just below the collet). So, four cuts later:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/189-AccessHolesComplete.jpg)

I decided to put four mounting bolts in; 2 at the outer edges, and 1 between the centres of the holes; missing out the middle (because the clamp was in the way, and because I don't posess a set of drills long enough to do the job). So, after milling a flat, drilling 5mm, 7.5mm, 8.5mm to depth; then 10mm clearance (to just about the surface of the sump), then milled 16mm counterbore to take the cap head bolts, leaving about 8mm of aluminium for the cap heads to bite into, thus:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/190-CounterboredEtc.jpg)

After tapping the four holes in the sump, we see the "finished" piece:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/191-UprightPieceNearlyDone.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/192-FromTheOtherSide.jpg)

The only remaining job on that part is to drill & tap 2 more holes to accept bolts from the gearbox; I'll do that later once I've measured them up. Finally, I need to grab some cap-head bolts to make sure it all goes together nicely.

Next task: Milling around the edges, so I don't need insanely long bolts to bolt the sump to the engine. I've got to be a bit careful doing this, there's a couple of places where the head drains come dangerously close to the edge of the sump, and I need to make sure I don't mill into one of them... Day off :coffee: tomorrow, so progress (should!) resume on Monday :dremel:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Stilldrillin on November 19, 2011, 05:31:28 PM
Solid, steady progress Ade!  :clap: :clap:

Well done......  :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on November 20, 2011, 04:11:25 PM
Thanks David, all encouragement gratefully received  :poke:

Today was supposed to be a day off, but family duties were all finished by 3 o'clock, so I figured I'd get some shop time in... Not much to report, after lots of careful measuring, plenty of  :smart:, quite a lot of :scratch:, a little :bang: and some :coffee:, I figured if I milled all but 20mm of depth, 15mm in, I'd get clearance for the cap bolts AND wouldn't break into any of the drain holes - at least two of which are right next to the fixing holes. Not so clever, Mr BMW.... should have thought about that & moved those mounting holes...

No matter - in the picture the front edge is cut down, and I'm working on the back edge. The cut is some 500mm long, 15mm wide and 38.5mm deep - thank goodness for power feed - and a mill rigid enough to do the backside cut as a climb cut (although it hardly is - the 16mm roughing cutter was taking a 14mm by 0.200" bite, not sure it's still a climb cut at that width?

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/193-CuttingSidesDown.jpg)

Reckon I'll turn it around so I can do both front & back under power as well; I have to be careful with the front as the outermost drain hole is less than 15mm from the front of the sump - so one of the mounting bolts is going to have to be longer than all the rest.... well, unless I counterbore it to take a short bolt, I don't think that will foul the pipe...

More tomorrow night hopefully.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on November 21, 2011, 02:46:58 PM
Quote
No, damn it all.... the "muscle" was actually pneumonia, and (feeble excuse) it's been a bit nesh in the shop recently...

Holy four little asterisk's :jaw: :jaw: :jaw:    You ok now though eh?

Sorry for the post and run.... I'm just so very busy these days! I did however get a whole 2 evenings in my workshop last week and I actually made something for myself!!!! Not going to tell you what but I might post it in the year long thread it started in!  :lol:


Good to see this moving at such a rate too.... Looking great  :thumbup:

You never know someday soon(ish) I might actually get over there to see it (and yourself) in person again!

Not for a few weeks mind.... Gearbox out again next week!  :doh:




Right, I'll be back on in a day or 50 and expect progress  :whip:    :) 






Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Brass_Machine on November 21, 2011, 03:29:53 PM
...Holy four little asterisk's :jaw: :jaw: :jaw:    You ok now though eh?
...

That cracked me up!   :lol:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: SPiN Racing on November 21, 2011, 03:41:24 PM
Beautiful progress!!

Makes me happy I have all Mazda Rotaries.. and a Dry Sump means flat plate on the bottom of the engine  :clap:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on November 21, 2011, 04:30:55 PM
Cheers guys! And yes, I'm pretty much back to normal now, I can still feel "something" if I take a really deep breath, but it's fading every day... I've got a followup appointment in January, so I guess they'll tell me then if I'm still alive or not...

Roight, onwards.... I managed to grab a couple of hours tonight, so I finished off the two short edges. I had planned to do them under power, but laziness got the better of me - I didn't want to have to dial the lump in again, and since I hadn't moved it, all my datum points are still valid - so I have to crank the y-axis a bit, I can manage that....

So, after about 90 minutes, I was all done:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/194-EdgesDone.jpg)

And the front edge:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/195-FrontEdgeDone.jpg)

The big sticky-outy bit that's left is the result of a mistake I made some months ago.... when I misplaced the front drain hole by what turned into 3mm. Because it's so close to the edge, I can't mill in the required 15mm to clear the cap bolt heads; so that one bolt will have to be a long one. I've fixed my drawings now, so any additional sumps won't have that ugly lump up front...

So I figured, let's have a photo with the back plate bolted on:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/196-PlateBoltedOn.jpg)

And, as it wasn't quite 9pm, I figured I might as well mill out the relief holes, which allow you to get a spanner to the bolts above (which, of course, would be entirely unnecessary if one took the gearbox off first):

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/197-CuttingAccessReliefs.jpg)

With all four done, I called it a night.

Now that all of the clamps are off the main surface, I can take the final skim off the bottom. Then it's back on the rotary table to round off the front edges, then onto the angle plate to slope the bottom. Finally, I'll cut some shallow fins into the bottom to help with cooling, and the very last operation will be to drill & tap two more holes in that upright, for the gearbox to bolt into... and then it will be finished!!!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on November 23, 2011, 03:59:14 PM
Only a small amount of visible progress today - well, yesterday actually. I've skimmed 3mm off the bottom & tidied it up somewhat. I had a go at some "bling" at the back edge, using a ball end mill to radius up to the bolt-on part. Unfortunately, I managed to slightly muff it, and left a dent in the middle. Ho hum.

Anyway, tonight was almost entirely taken up with careful depth measurements, complex (ish...) trig calculations and other such nonsense. The end result is: I will mill at 18.4o, 75mm in from one edge; and 11.3o, 100mm in from the other. That will slope the bottom down & should remove a tidy amount of metal. It will also leave a theoretical 11mm thickness from any internal void, so no chance of a breakthrough, and plenty of material to cut the fins into. I plan to make the fins a mere 6mm deep, leaving 7mm of metal at the thinnest point, which I feel is massive overkill. Mind you, I'll be double-triple-quadruple checking those calculations before I do any more cutting, a breakthrough now would be a total disaster.

As it stands, the sump currently weighs 14kg without the bolt-on piece. Or, to put that in English terms, "far too f***ing heavy!"  :lol:

Anyway, here's the setup:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/198-ReadyForSlopeCutting.jpg)

The lines are scored in the right place, I've double-checked my angle, and it's good to go... hopefully, plenty of cutting time tomorrow :dremel:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Stilldrillin on November 23, 2011, 05:48:48 PM
Looking good Ade!  :clap: :clap:

Hope all goes well during tomorrow's shift.......  :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: DMIOM on November 23, 2011, 05:57:09 PM
..........As it stands, the sump currently weighs 14kg without the bolt-on piece. Or, to put that in English terms, "far too f***ing heavy!"  :lol:

But Ade ..... if my memory stretches back to the start of the thread - wasn't there a suggestion that the mk I sump would go on your Dad's car and you would do your's later from the other half of that huge offcut disc? - so leave this one "with a sound margin of safety" and then make your's somewhat more race-light?

Dave
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on November 23, 2011, 08:29:19 PM
Quote
That cracked me up!   :lol:
  At least someone noticed  :thumbup:    :beer:


Maths!!?  :smart:  surely this is the perfect time for just take a little off and see where you get to  :D

Seriously though, I'm thinking 7mm is a good solid thickness to aim for. Too easy to dent or rip if it's thin.



Looking forward to the next few installs  :coffee:





Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: krv3000 on November 24, 2011, 02:38:23 AM
HI sum well thort out work being dun brill
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on November 24, 2011, 05:34:57 AM
Thanks chaps, your kind comments are - as always - much appreciated and highly motivational  :nrocks:

Dave - to answer your specific point - yes, this IS the Mk1 sump, however, overall racing plans have changed. Dad & I will now be sharing the Capri, whilst hopefully also building a new race car from the chassis up. That second car will also have an M5 engine, and one of my dry sumps...

There is a specific reason I'm being ultra-cautious around these measurements... and it's due to another mistake I made over a year ago... when I calculated the angles for the head drains (here (http://madmodder.net/index.php?topic=2726.msg35857#msg35857)), I somehow ballsed up the angle & cut them deeper than I expected. I didn't realise at the time, it was only when I first started looking at the slope calculations that I realised I might run into trouble. The next one will be much easier to make I think, as I know what to watch out for...

Anyway, there's a change of plan... I still need to round the corners off the front, and - as with the wax model - it's much harder to clamp it in the right place once the slopes are cut.... so I shall be using the rotary table tonight instead of the angle plate...


PS Ralph: "Holy four little asterisks" - that made me laugh too, I did notice it, honest!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Davo J on November 24, 2011, 06:00:04 AM
I am still following you build, your doing some great work and will be one of a kind.

Dave
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: jatt on November 24, 2011, 06:04:52 AM
Looks way too good to be stuck under a car!!!!!!!!!!!

Progressing along well.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: jim on November 24, 2011, 02:46:35 PM
excellent work :thumbup:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on November 24, 2011, 04:50:25 PM
Thanks lads, I'm sure you could all make one of these (given the same gear I've got, at least)... but it's nice to be on the home straight I must admit.

No machining tonight, it took over an hour to get the sump set up on the rotary table, and then I discovered I'd got the wrong bl**dy radius! So trying to set it all up again now, it's a frustrating job and it's not quite there yet. At 9.15 I called time. And just to add insult to injury, the damn day job is getting in the road as well. Grrr!

Lots of weekend coming up, though, and no plans to go anywhere - except the mill that is :)
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: doubleboost on November 24, 2011, 05:19:59 PM
Very nice  :thumbup: :thumbup:
You must be made of stern stuff tackling a job like that
John
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on November 25, 2011, 05:09:25 PM
Thanks John - it's either that, or maybe I'm just slightly mad...

I know which one I'd put money on  :lol: wibble...


Anyway, just a quick update tonight. Getting the sump in the right place, and straight, on the rotary table, was an absolute pain in the chuff. Lots of tapping this way & that. I used an upside down end mill to get the position "near enough".

So, after lots of tapping, prodding, measuring, more tapping, etc:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/199-CornerSetup.jpg)

Here's the first cuts going on:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/200-CornerFirstCuts.jpg)

And finally, proof that I got the radius about right (2nd time).

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/201-CornerDone.jpg)

Setup for the second corner was basically identical, and took just as long to get right. As a result, that's all the milling I did tonight; more tomorrow.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on November 25, 2011, 07:59:06 PM
Have you got your undies on your head and pencils up your nose?   :lol:

(In joke me thinks??)



Look at that loverly radius   :clap:


Not long now and it'll be on the engine  :headbang: 



And yes..... we all know you're a bit mad  :thumbup:





Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Stilldrillin on November 26, 2011, 02:23:11 AM

Setup for the second corner was basically identical, and took just as long to get right. As a result, that's all the milling I did tonight; more tomorrow.

Two corners. Correct rad., and in the right place........  :thumbup:

Sounds like another good shift, to add to all the earlier ones! :clap: :clap:

It will soon be finished now, Ade......  :D

David D
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on November 26, 2011, 05:53:51 PM
Hi Ralph, aka the Flanders Pigeon Mudererer!! Thought you'd got away with eating old Speckled Jim, eh?  :lol:

Thanks David, that's a nice positive way to look at it... if you'd have seen me sweating and cursing 5 mins before I started cutting the radii, tapping the damn lump all over the shop with the Plastic Hammer of Doom (or, in this case, the Plastic Hammer of GO WHERE THE FOUR-LITTLE-ASTERISKS YOU'RE TOLD YOU BAS-MORE-ASTERISKS LUMP OF YET-MORE-ASTERISKS!!!). But, alls well that ends well, in the end.

Had I got my backside out of bed & down the workshop at a sensible hour, I'd have finished it tonight.... but since I didn't get started until 2pm, it didn't quite happen...

So, here's the penultimate (probably!) episode.


First job - drill 2 holes I'd forgotten, the ones that bolt through the "wings" into the engine. Also, while I was there, I enlarged the mounting holes from 6mm (a very tight squeeze for a 6mm cap-head bolt) to 6.5mm, to give a little bit of "wiggle" room. A trial-fit on the engine had showed that this was needed:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/202-NewHolesBiggerHoles.jpg)

As you can see, it's another precarious setup, with a massive overhang... fortunately, it was only a few holes & all went well:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/203-AnotherCrazySetup.jpg)

So, with those jobs out of the way, time to cut those slopes:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/204-SlopeCutting.jpg)

It turns out, this job makes quite a mess of the workshop. Lucky I've got plenty of space and a large brush!:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/205-MessyJob.jpg)

Those of you who have followed this from the start (actually, more likely someone who has just ploughed through all of the 12 pages of this monster story) might find this photo familiar. Certainly, I got a sense of deja-vu... Yep, cutting bl**dy slots again!:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/206-SlottingAgain.jpg)

It's worth it though, as the first fins emerge:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/207-Fins.jpg)

I finished them off with a ball-end cutter, just a little blingy bit that'll never be seen, since this thing will spend it's life 6" off the tarmac (or gravel, grass, etc.). I also milled off the ear at an angle, just to tidy that up a bit. So, next job was to flip the sump around, arrange on the mill so I could do the whole job under power feed, set the angle plate, and get cutting. Due to the amount of material to remove, I really pushed the mill & cutter as hard as I dared:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/208-PushingOn.jpg)

[devon accent] Propper Jaaahb [/devon accent]

So, after a while of that, I made the first mistake of the evening & reset the angle plate (and moved the piece) to cut the second wing. What I should have done was cut the fins on the second angle, while it was all set up & in the right place. Ho-hum.

As a result, I decided to call it a night. That and the fact it's very late o'clock.


Therefore, this is where we're up to:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/209-Sloped.jpg)

Final jobs are: Cut the fins in the rest of the bottom; drill the last two holes in the upright piece (I will have to fit it to the gearbox to find the location); Finish any deburring; test-fit on engine; lightly sand the top surface so it's absolutely flat; thoroughly clean and de-grease; make large wooden base and fit sump to wall - no way is it hiding under some car after all this effort!!

OK, all bar the last one then.   :loco:

Weight (including back piece) is now 13kg; still a lot (and it won't get much lighter despite the fins), but there's loads of spare metal which - if I had bigger cojones - I'd mill into. But I'm absolutely paranoid about a breakthrough at this late stage, so I'll stick with the heavyweight version.

Fingers crossed, one last push tomorrow and it's all over!  :bugeye:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: doubleboost on November 26, 2011, 06:18:15 PM
Certainly a one off
Years ago i was involved in motor sport
We ran heart 420 r engines with ladder sumps this was state of the art
Nissan micras run similar stuff now lol
John
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on November 27, 2011, 12:47:37 PM
John - what's a ladder sump? I googled the term, but didn't get anything useful...

Right, did someone say "finished"? No? Good, doesn't do to jump the gun eh....

I got a decent session in today & finished cutting & deburring all the fins. I then test-fitted it to the engine (easy peasy with the slightly enlarged holes, the bolts all wiggled into place nicely). I also test-fitted it to the gearbox & did my best to mark the location of the holes for the other 2 gearbox mounting bolts. I'm not sure I got them spot on, might have to do that job again (and it's a horrid job.

Final weight, after finning, is 12.4kg... a whole kilo of swarf today! Eeek!

No action shots today, you've seen 'em all before, but here's the result:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/210-Finished-1.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/211-Finished-2.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/212-EngineFitting-1.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/213-EngineFitting-2.jpg)

I gave the engine a full turn with a spanner (surprisingly hard work, it's no wonder starter motors take so much juice), to confirm that nothing inside hits anything in the sump (now that would have been embarrassing!)


(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/214-EngineFitting-3.jpg)

The last picture shows one of the (mercifully few) warts: Whilst milling the counterbore for the outer cap-head (the empty hole at the edge of the curved piece), the angle plate collapsed. How the cutter didn't break I'll never know... Next time, must remember to firmly bolt up the angle plate before milling...  :palm:

Also, the trial fit threw up another minor issue - the front 2 bolts under the spigots will need to be counterbored, otherwise they take up room needed by the pipework... Not a problem, as there's nothing underneath those bolts, so I can easily counterbore 10mm or so.

So, outstanding jobs:

 - Drill/tap for the 2 gearbox mounting holes
 - Counterbore 2 mounting holes at the front
 - Cut relief for jubilee clip near inboard spigot
 - General clean-up & degrease
 - Loctite up the end piece bolts (they'll never come off after that)

I would have finished today, if it wasn't for the pesky family inviting me to dinner... but I can't refuse free food... :lol:

So... is this the penultimate post? Tune in tomorrow @ 10pm to find out...  :coffee:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Stilldrillin on November 27, 2011, 03:19:34 PM
COR!!!!, Ade!  :bugeye:  :bugeye:

That looks a bit lovely! (http://freesmileyface.net/smiley/love/love-139.gif) (http://freesmileyface.net)

I've got to admit, it's a shame it will be hidden....... Provided the car is kept greasy side down!  :Doh:

Blummin masterpiece......  :clap: :clap: :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on November 27, 2011, 06:20:31 PM
Quote
a whole kilo of swarf today!

Now you're just showing off  :ddb:

 :)


Looks the business chief  :thumbup:

As David put so well...
Quote
it's a shame it will be hidden....... Provided the car is kept greasy side down!  :Doh:


 :lol:




Looking forward to tomorrows instalment..... But probably not as much as you are?  :beer:




Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: HS93 on November 28, 2011, 03:24:48 AM
COR!!!!, Ade!  :bugeye:  :bugeye:

That looks a bit lovely! (http://freesmileyface.net/smiley/love/love-139.gif) (http://freesmileyface.net)

I've got to admit, it's a shame it will be hidden....... Provided the car is kept greasy side down!  :Doh:

Blummin masterpiece......  :clap: :clap: :thumbup:

David D

Very nice Ade well done, It will be worth Rolling the car so everyone can see it  :lol: :lol: :lol: :doh: :lol: :Doh:

       :ddb: :nrocks: :ddb:Peter :ddb: :nrocks: :ddb:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AndreasL on November 28, 2011, 03:58:04 AM
Hmm, should or should I not do the the sump for the FF1600 my self or just buy a ready made piece of the shelf for just a few £...  :doh:

What an effort!
Guess curbing aint an option after all houres going in to this. ;)  :beer:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: HS93 on November 28, 2011, 04:05:04 AM
I think a crossflow sump would be a doddle compared to this beast, I played about with reducing the depth and baffling plus putting wings on a steel one a few years ago, should have gone dry sump would have been easier, about to look at a 4AEG toymota sump now for the same westfield.

Peter
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AndreasL on November 28, 2011, 04:24:49 AM
I think a crossflow sump would be a doddle compared to this beast, I played about with reducing the depth and baffling plus putting wings on a steel one a few years ago, should have gone dry sump would have been easier, about to look at a 4AEG toymota sump now for the same westfield.

Peter

Very interesting Peter.

And YES, way simpler then for the BMW V8, I know. :)
But still work that has to be weighted against the time/cost table where I'm always way to optimistic about how easy it is to carve something out of metal in no time. :doh:
But still, really tempting to have a go sometime in the future. No hurry, its a long way untill an engine is needed for my vintage FF1600 project.  :whip:

Dont whant to OT this thread anymore, but if you like to share any info and/or photos of your sump mod it would be very appreciated.  :thumbup:

And please tell us about the new engine/car as well.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: HS93 on November 28, 2011, 05:23:23 AM
I think a crossflow sump would be a doddle compared to this beast, I played about with reducing the depth and baffling plus putting wings on a steel one a few years ago, should have gone dry sump would have been easier, about to look at a 4AEG toymota sump now for the same westfield.

Peter

Very interesting Peter.

And YES, way simpler then for the BMW V8, I know. :)
But still work that has to be weighted against the time/cost table where I'm always way to optimistic about how easy it is to carve something out of metal in no time. :doh:
But still, really tempting to have a go sometime in the future. No hurry, its a long way until an engine is needed for my vintage FF1600 project.  :whip:

Dont want to OT this thread anymore, but if you like to share any info and/or photos of your sump mod it would be very appreciated.  :thumbup:

And please tell us about the new engine/car as well.
when it comes out ill try and get some pictures , it is just based on the old rally sumps for Mk1/2 escorts then the bottom carved off to reduce the height it was a  bit of a cobble as we need ground clearance but as it was going to be tossed about auto testing it needed to have the capacity.
sorry for going off toppic  :offtopic:

Peter
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: -steves- on November 28, 2011, 06:37:49 AM
Wow, what a job  :thumbup: :clap:

Not sure if you should bolt it to the car or put in a strong glass cabinet on display.  :clap: :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: SPiN Racing on November 28, 2011, 09:00:40 AM
Beautiful work!  Thats a lovely piece of craftmanship. Bravo!

 :clap:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: arnoldb on November 28, 2011, 12:18:01 PM
Great job Ade  :bow:  :clap:

Do you realize you'll now have to install a mirror on the pit floor  :poke: :D

 :beer:, Arnold
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on November 28, 2011, 03:47:19 PM
Thanks lads, it's been a proper marathon, but I got there in the end.... well, pretty much, as tonight's penultimate (again) installment shall reveal....

Couple of "easy" jobs; locate the screw holes for the gearbox; and counterbore the 2 mounting holes by the pipes.

Here's how I "measured" the location of the mounting holes:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/215-LocateGearboxBoltHoles.jpg)

Unfortunately, I managed to get one of them just far enough out that it won't do up  :doh: It will have to make do with 3 bolts instead of 4...

Next, I counterbored the front holes; and made another error (milled one far too deep). Called it a night as the combination of a late night last night + early morning + long day at work = silly mistakes & losing tools...

Also, to my surprise (although I shouldn't be, really), having cut all those fins, the thing has actually warped slightly! I may, therefore, have to take a thin skim off the top surface to get it all straight again. Fortunately, I left myself a couple of spare mms on the top surface; and, worse case scenario (if I have to go deeper than planned), I can mill some more material out of the bottom of each trough to add clearance - so all is far from lost.

So, on that note, time to call it a day. I've got a few silly busy days, early mornings & long-distance travel coming up, so it'll probably be Friday before I get to work on it again.

Go on then, one last glamour shot:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/216-GlamourShot.jpg)

There's a small prize if you can work out how much warp the fins have introduced from that picture (hint: It's concave on the bottom...)
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Brass_Machine on November 28, 2011, 04:00:38 PM
Sucks about the warp, but it does sound like you have planned appropriately to handle that sort of thing.  :smart:

Now onto the good stuff... can you mount the engine upside down so it can be seen with the hood open? No? Well, you have to machine up some valve covers t match then!

Eric
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: NickG on November 29, 2011, 02:21:08 PM
 :jaw: Amazing Ade, well done ... I would never in a million years dream of attempting such a feat.  :bow:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Anzaniste on November 29, 2011, 03:48:30 PM
Fan----tast----ic. What a brilliant project. I'm really looking forward to hearing the Bimmer revving its trollies off. :beer:

 It was this thread that drew me into Mad Modder.

I've been hooked ever since.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: doubleboost on November 29, 2011, 04:19:07 PM
Hi
Ade
A ladder sump is a casting with the main bearing journals integral with the sump (looks like a ladder on the inside)
It helps to stiffen alloy blocks
But they are a pain to work on
John
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Doc on November 29, 2011, 10:21:14 PM
That is looking good I can imagine the mounds of swarf :lol:

Nice work!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Joarek on December 01, 2011, 01:33:33 AM
Immensely impressive, i really enjoyed reading this thread!

Thank you for taking your time posting the process  :bow:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on December 02, 2011, 04:38:01 PM
Aw, shucks, thanks guys (http://www.graphicsgrotto.com/emoticons/embarrassed/images/emembarrassed3.gif)

I've learned one hell of a lot along the way (and, perhaps more importantly, I've learned that there's a hell of a lot more than I've learned still to learn - if, indeed, it's possible to learn it all!). Naturally I exclude John Stevenson from that, as he IS a machining Deity (feel free to rain down the manna whenever you want  :lol:).

Did a couple of bits tonight, just milled the front piece where the spigots come out slightly to give the jubilee clips more clearance. Tomorrow I shall give the top its final skim to make it totally flat, then one last test fit to the engine to ensure it's still got enough depth to clear everything. The new gasket shows up next week sometime, so the penultimate fit will happen then; the week after next it'll be installed in the car, given a quick test, then stripped off again for one last looksee - then, if all is well, back on the engine for, hopefully, ever!

So... does anyone have a big mirror to put on the floor?  :ddb:

Thanks again for all your help, encouragement and  :poke: s along the way, got to find something even bigger to do now! Hmm, I wonder if I could make a V8..? Hmm, maybe I'll get into a competition with Stilldrillin - who can make the biggest engine out of Things Purchased from a Supermarket   :loco:

PS: Ralph, are you around at all? I could use someone who enjoys polishing shiny metal objects....
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: arnoldb on December 03, 2011, 02:33:31 AM
That's a great job Ade  :bow:

Hmmm...  Big sheet of Ali plate all polished up will make a nice mirror, and will only get a ding instead of bringing 7 years of bad luck for that inevitable dropped tool or part  :poke: :lol:

 :beer:, Arnold
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Dean W on December 08, 2011, 02:23:41 AM
I missed a few days, and missed a lot in the bargain.
Surly is a thing of beauty, Ade!  I wouldn't have the heart to put it under a car.
What an incredible job.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: krv3000 on December 08, 2011, 03:38:28 AM
HI that's a thing of beauty     
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on December 10, 2011, 12:10:00 PM
Thanks again Gents, much appreciated. Ralph, you're right, even without polishing it seems to be acquiring little scratches and dings.....  :doh: still, it looks great from a distance, which is what matters...

Anyway, as you may recall, I'd planned to do one final little skim of the bottom, just to take the bow out of it. Well, didn't I nearly wreck the thing? Here's a Very Important Lesson - actually, TWO Very Important Lessons - both of which will rightly attract censure from all quarters....

Lesson 1: If you put the tool in the collet the night before, the following day when you make the cut, make sure the damn thing is tightened up properly!

Yep, the cutter started to unwind itself as I put the cut on, which made the cut deeper.... and deeper.... and deeeeeper......

Lesson 2: NEVER, EVER EVER! walk away from the mill until you're ABSOLUTELY sure everything's tight, cutting properly, etc.

In theory, I know, you're not supposed to walk away at all; but in practice, when you're taking a 10 thou skim at about 2 inches/min, the "do something else" factor is quite high, and is normally no problem.

I heard the cut getting worse, and returned immediately, but by then the damage was done, and the cutter had dropped a full 1.5mm AARGH!

So, that 10-20thou skim becomes a 1.5mm skim. Hey ho, at least it'll be lighter. More annoyingly, the vertical bolt holes, carefully drilled & tapped M10, are now all 1.5mm out of position, which means the sump can't be bolted to the gearbox! Argh!

Therefore, the rescue is as follows:

 - Finish the skim, re-check on engine (it still all clears, without the gasket in place so I must have added some extra clearance earlier - as Stew says, a little clearance never got in the road.
 - Turn down some ali & thread M10. Screw into gearbox threads with loctite & mill flush.

In order to re-locate the bolts, I decided to do something different.... The gearbox has nicely machined holes for the bolts to go through; so, I turned a piece of ali down to diameter & drilled the centre 6mm; then turned down a piece of steel to 6mm and turned a point on the end. The result is a made-to-measure marking punch that will be straight & true every time:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/217-PunchTool.jpg)


The sump is now on the engine, the next job is to take the engine off the stand, get the gearbox mounted up, punch the marks, drill & tap the holes, & send it on it's way!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Spurry on December 10, 2011, 12:23:46 PM
Ah ha, I wondered how you were going to get round the height difference of the horizontal holes when you first mentioned the skim.

Lovely job BTW.

Pete
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Stilldrillin on December 10, 2011, 12:29:43 PM
:bugeye:    Aaawwww......... ADE!!!     :bang:  :bang:

I'm sitting here wi tears in me eyes..... Almost!  :palm:

Oh, man..........  :Doh:

At the very last hurdle. Feel so sorry for you......  :(


Hope the sort out goes ok.

David D
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: jim on December 10, 2011, 12:43:42 PM
Lucky man!!!!

just looking forward to the post about it running!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Dean W on December 10, 2011, 06:06:53 PM
What a bad break, Ade.  My heart fell when I read the first part!  Thankfully, it sounds
like you have saved the day, again!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Stilldrillin on December 11, 2011, 02:30:02 AM
Looking on the bright side.........   :D

Think of all the extra gravel trap clearance!  :lol: :lol:

David D
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on December 12, 2011, 10:19:48 AM
Ade,

After all this I think you have earned the title of "The luckiest unluckiest Madmodder around"   

In smileys I think this is about right....  :bugeye:  :jaw:  :Doh:  :doh:   :coffee:  :borg:  :dremel:  :headbang:   :beer:


But that's just a guess  :)




Hope it's all going to be alright..... Too much damn hard work not to find a fix  :thumbup:






Ralph.

P.S. A nice coloured anodising is surely the way forward?  :ddb:   
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on December 12, 2011, 01:45:35 PM
Thanks again chaps; looks like I managed to fairly accurately convey the depth of feeling - which was proportionate to depth of cut - a proper pucker moment.

Luckily, it's all gone well, and today the very final bits of machining were re-done for the last time (with the engine off the stand & both sump and gearbox mounted up, I used my punch tool to mark the new hole centres. Everything then came apart again, and the four holes were drilled & tapped. No pictures, it's all pretty standard stuff.

Then, the sump was put back on with the brand new gasket, all bolted down, pipes cut & altered to fit. Here are some glamour shots of the engine + sump (sorry for the gross light problems, it was dark in the shed & the sump is shiny shiny...):

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/218-InSitu.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/219-InSitu.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/220-InSitu.jpg)


Whilst we're here, a crop taken from that last photo shows just how far out I was with my original holes! Since I'm pretty sure I hadn't cut that much metal off in the first place, I must have muffed something when measuring at the gearbox. The small ring just below each the 2 holes, is the threaded bar I loctited in the other day....

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/223-NewBoltHoles.jpg)

For the next sump, I will definitely use the little punch as the FIRST method...

So, finally a couple more:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/221-RightsideUp.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/sump/222-Glimpse.jpg)



Should be running by the end of the week, can't wait!  :beer:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Stilldrillin on December 12, 2011, 02:36:25 PM
A really purposeful looking lump  :clap: :clap: :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: philf on December 12, 2011, 04:32:13 PM
Ade,

I've followed this thread with great interest since you came to see me in Marple (you bought a right angle bevel gearbox off me) and first told me about MadModder.

I felt sick to the stomach for you when things went awry. As you say, the right hand hole looks to be about 6mm off centre which is perhaps better than being only 1.5mm out - what's left of the plug is more likely to stay put. I am so relieved to see that the loose cutter incident wasn't as catastrophic as it could have been and that you came up with a good fix.
 
You've been an inspiration to us all. I'm sure that not many would attempt a job of that scale. You've obviously had to put great thought into the machining operations and set-ups, learning a lot as you progressed. We've all (or at least, I've) learned whilst watching your progress.

The finished job looks superb. You should be very proud of your achievement and thanks for sharing all the good (and not so good) moments along the way.

Are you having a rest before starting the next?

Cheers. :beer:

Phil.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: dsquire on December 13, 2011, 01:19:51 AM
Ade

I haven't been saying much but I have been watching this progress since the beginning. It is amazing the way you have turned that big disc of aluminum into what we now see hooked up on the bottom of the engine. I know there were some times along the way that you scared yourself as well as us following along but it appears as though it has all come out with just a few slight design features added. Very well done Ade, you should be proud of this one.  :D :D

Cheers :beer:

Don

Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: BillTodd on December 13, 2011, 09:16:23 AM
Fantastic job  :clap:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: winklmj on December 13, 2011, 09:51:47 AM
Yee Haw (I'm from TX)! I've been watching this since I can't remember--glad you finally got 'er done and it looks great mounted up. Good job.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: rleete on December 13, 2011, 12:28:26 PM
Anyone have any experience cutting them, as it says can be done?  Why not buy all long units and cut to size?

For less than 100 bucks I could have DRO on my mill.  Far cry from the $600-900 packages available in the past.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: lordedmond on December 13, 2011, 12:53:17 PM
Ade  how much pongo are you getting at the crank from that M5 lump?



Stuart  ex FF1600 racer
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: SPiN Racing on December 19, 2011, 09:34:10 AM
Beautiful job! Looks fantastic!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AndreasL on December 21, 2011, 07:11:07 AM
Stuart  ex FF1600 racer

Aha, one more.  :thumbup:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on December 21, 2011, 12:26:53 PM
Ade :wave:       Ade....?      Ade  :poke:        Ade!  :wack:         ADE! 







What ya doin?   :scratch:


:coffee:  ? 


 Been awhile and no replies is all  :thumbup:  :)





 Ralph.    :lol:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on December 21, 2011, 02:50:17 PM
Woah, no need to yell there Ralph....

Currently, there is no further news worthy of reporting... as soon as there is, I'll be posting it here.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on December 21, 2011, 08:16:02 PM
Only joking chief... I was feeling in a  :poke:  kinda mood  :lol:


Just checkin you were still out there  :thumbup:



Watching this space  :coffee:




Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: awemawson on December 29, 2011, 02:57:32 PM
Ade,

Superb project - I've just read through all 14 pages! No way would I have your patience to do that manually despite having the machinery to do it. I would have spent probably the same time programming it on my CNC, then I could churn them out!

Now you have done it, and before it gets messed up, have it anodised. It will toughen up the surface and keep it good for a long time to come

AWEM
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on January 16, 2012, 03:52:00 PM
Once again, thanks all for all your kind comments.

AWEM - the sump is already on the car - I hear you about the anodising, but it won't happen just yet. I may be able to do it next winter, but I will have to contract it out, I think the surface area/current requirements will far exceed anything I can muster.

Stuart - currently getting around 450bhp, but we've done all but no tuning work. The main mods are: Remove the VANOS & turn the cams up to 11. Replace BMW ECU with a DTA device. We're running a proprietary ignition/fuel map, the guy who did the work has locked the ECU down, but the kind chaps at DTA have furnished us with the "back door" entry code :med: so we might be tempted to experiment later in the year. Other than that & the dry sump setup, the engine is stock. Next tuning mod is high performance cams (they will allow up to around 600bhp), then it starts getting a bit pricey.

Phil - I'd hoped to be working on another one by now, but illness has prevented that. Once I'm back at the machines, which - work permitting - will be next week, I could get started. Of course, I need a customer first...

And now, for the news:

IT WORKS!!!

The engine has been started & run, and everything is A-OK.... Well, almost; there's a slight leak around the spigots; which is basically due to my faulty spigot design. I should have left room for a washer or, better yet, left a small flange to allow the spigot to seal properly. I'm going to make some new spigots which will be grooved to take an o-ring. I'll also clean up the face on the sump where they tighten up, to ensure a nice oil-tight seal. That should happen next week sometime, depends on when the engine is removed again.

There is still an oil leak into the bellhousing. My money's on a dodgy crank seal, as we know the sump is flat as a flat thing. At least, I know that...

The next photos (other than one of a new spigot) will be of the car on the track hopefully!
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: lordedmond on January 17, 2012, 03:50:01 AM
Thanks for the info Ade

not a bad starting Power, :drool:  how much will the block stand before the jelly wobbles set in, I remember talking to Randy Mouse ( oops Andy Rouse ) At Donnington Park long time ago when he was racing ford cosworths ( he was using a Boroscope at the time to check for detonations ) 

He remarked the cossie block seem to turn to jelly at above 700hp  :Doh: that seemed to be the limiting factor

as a side note we got taken round the track in a road  :bug eye: cossie fitted with a hang on tight switch by another ex saloon car champ ( cannot remember his name ) left pits with switch on when the tubo kicked in we was kicked round to 30 degrees to tack wheel spin , the tacho disappeared over the end and never did reappear till we got back to the pits , good ride tho  :D

Stuart now to old to race
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: HS93 on January 17, 2012, 04:13:38 AM
Hey Ade  buy a box of these  :D :D

http://www.aldi.co.uk/uk/html/offers/special_buys3_22980.htm?WT.mc_id=2012-01-16-12-01

Peter
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: andyf on January 17, 2012, 05:25:42 AM
I got one of those O ring sets two years back, Peter. Should last me a lifetime.

 :offtopic: I got one of these from Aldi last year, and they are in again.  http://www.aldi.co.uk/uk/html/offers/special_buys3_22974.htm .
Taps (all second cut) and dies (which aren't split) are M3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10 and 12, plus 1/8 and 1/4" BSP. Drills are the pilot sizes for the metric taps, and are marked as HSS. I don't know if the taps and dies are HSS, but they certainly seem to cut OK. On the whole, I thought it pretty good value, and the 8x13x1" steel box will come in useful.

Andy
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on January 17, 2012, 07:27:48 AM
Stuart - the block is good for over 1000hp (the DTM boys used to run this engine), but that's with regular rebuilds and additional fettling.

It should, however, handle 650 all day long & only require a looking over at the end of the season. It is, essentially, a race engine that lives in a road car.

Peter - I just bought some o-rings off ePay for 6 quid delivered, I reckon they should last me forever, provided I always cut metric holes....

Andy - I tend to pick up most of my taps & dies from a local 2nd hand tool shop. It means I have a vast array of BSW stuff, but there's usually some BSF/UNC/UNF & metric stuff to be had too, it just requires a good rummage around.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: lordedmond on January 17, 2012, 08:59:52 AM
Thanks for the info it looks to be bit stiffer than a 4 pot cossie then  :D


Stuart

Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Brass_Machine on January 17, 2012, 11:29:21 AM

And now, for the news:

IT WORKS!!!


 :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb: :ddb:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on January 17, 2012, 07:40:41 PM
What's all this pickin on me Cossies for then?  :poke:  :poke:



Sweet job Ade :thumbup:   We always knew it was going to work  :scratch:   :lol:   


Some day soon (when your sorted out and able) I'll come over for a butchers  and a chat :beer:






Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Mike Cole on January 28, 2012, 05:56:18 AM
Hi Ade
Fantastic that you turned that huge lump of ally into your sump.
Where is this local second hand tool shop i am allways on the look out for more stuff..

Mike
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 04, 2012, 02:15:46 PM
There were only 2 possible locations this sump could leak: The plugs in the end of the long holes; and the spigots.

Sure enough, the spigots leaked, just a tiny bit, but in the interests of not leaving puddles of oil around the place, it required a fix.

The sump was duly returned yesterday, and today some machining was done...

The new spigots were turned from an old pin (aka, mystery steel). It turned like a 2 day old dog poo - i.e. it stunk. But carbide won in the end, and all 3 items were turned and threaded. Here's the last one, I've just finished cutting the hex in it. A 19mm spanner fits nicely:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/224-NewSpigots-1.jpg)

Old and new. Notice the flange & O-ring on the new ones:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/225-NewSpigots-2.jpg)

Finally, they were fitted & graunched into place:

(http://www.lister-engine.com/pics/sump/226-NewSpigots-3.jpg)

The pattern on the top one is due to my machining the first one in the wrong order (doh). The chuck just wouldn't grip tightly enough to allow the 1/2" BSP die to cut the threads. In the end, I found that if I gripped on the flange/nut portion (before it was cut, obviously), there was enough grip to turn the die. The other two I turned the backside (threaded end) first, before drilling out the centre. The spigot end was then turned using one of those infinitely flexible Mircona parting off tools, before the whole lot was finally parted from the stock metal with the same parting tool.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Stilldrillin on March 04, 2012, 02:36:30 PM
Nicely done Ade!  :clap: :clap:

They'll solve the minor teething problem.  :thumbup:

David D
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: JD on March 05, 2012, 03:43:34 PM
 :clap:  :clap:  :beer:  AdeV I have been following this thread with great interest superb job sir.
One point, on a high performance engine like this could the machining marks inside the sump slow down oil flow through the engine? would it make any difference if you polish out these marks so making the scavenge process of the oil more efficient.
JD
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: doubleboost on March 05, 2012, 03:56:06 PM
Cracking job Ade
A real credit to you :clap: :clap:
We used to polish (de bur) the inside of BDA race blocks
I dont think it made any differance to oil scavange but it did look good and cost nothing  :bugeye: :bugeye:
John
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: AdeV on March 31, 2013, 06:05:58 PM
Ello ello ello, what's all this then?

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/cnc/sump/cncsump-002.jpg)


Can you guess what it is yet?  :lol: :lol:

(http://lister-engine.com/pics/cnc/sump/cncsump-003.jpg)

 :palm:
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: micktoon on March 31, 2013, 06:34:12 PM
Kendal Mint Cake ?  :D
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: andyf on March 31, 2013, 06:56:10 PM
Wax, innit? Just needs a wick.

Andy
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Stilldrillin on April 01, 2013, 02:23:49 AM
That's a bit familiar...........  Have we been here before?  :scratch:



               :D

David D

Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Divided he ad on April 01, 2013, 06:05:43 AM
Looks to me like you finally pulled your finger out and got the CNC mill running again   :lol:


Bout time too.... Got plenty of oil in reserve?  :poke:




Soon to be constructing the billet sump MkII?






Ralph.
Title: Re: BMW V8 dry sump from billet
Post by: Brass_Machine on April 01, 2013, 10:48:14 PM
..
Soon to be constructing the billet sump MkII?
..

Looks like it to me!