MadModder
Gallery, Projects and General => Project Logs => Topic started by: MadNick on January 22, 2012, 01:33:57 PM
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Afternoon,
I wanted to lie in bed all day today but instead kicked myself up the backside and made the trek to my workshop, full of anticipation :)
The reason for making the ball cutter was to put a radius on the top of a pair of custom handlebar clamps - I am building a hardtail chopper. I finalised a rough design for the clamps, found a couple of nice pieces of stainless around the right size and got stuck in.
Having worked with stainless before and got quite rough results I had some trepidation but really neednt have worried (so far anyway).
The raw material -
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s95/freewheeler1968/Engineering/clamps002.jpg)
I put the ball cutter into action and it cut a very clean radius on the top of clamp 1 -
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s95/freewheeler1968/Engineering/clamps001.jpg)
Sure there were a couple of rough bits but some fine wet and dry and then autosol and wire wool cleaned things right up - will still need polishing properly though.
I then spun clamp 1 round in the chuck, piloted a hole for the retaining stud (which bolts up to the top handlebar yoke) and turned down a slight shoulder so it seats slightly above the yoke (no more pictures at this stages as my batteries went).
Anyway, I hope to get some more work done on this possibly for next week or maybe at the weekend. Will keep you posted.
Nick
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How big is that chunk of metal? How long did it take to put the radius on the one end?
-Sparky
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Sparky,
Its about an inch and a half in diameter and it took about 10 minutes to cut the radius.
Nick
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Nick,
Good start, nicely done :thumbup: :clap:
What is the raw material?
:beer:
DaveH
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Nicely done Nick.
I am a bit of a bike guy... a little more about the hardtail?
Eric
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Afternoon,
I ran into a problem! The base of these needs to take a 1/2" UNC thread running at 1/2" deep - I have drilled it out ok with a new 27/64 drill, taking it very slowly and using lots of coolant but the tap is getting so tight that after a couple of turns I had to back off before something breaks.
Any ideas what could be wrong please? I suppose now would be a good time to ask what kind of taps I should be using ... ;)
@DaveH the raw material is stainless - I really wanted to use mild steel but have nothing of the right kind of diameter. Might have to buy some now!
@Brass machine. Its an Ironhead Sportster lump in a custom hardtail frame. Ill put some pics up once I get a bit further.
Nick
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Nick,
Two issues! One is what tap were you using and the second is what drill did you use?
Of course, you might have work hardened the stainless steel.
A lot of possibilities but really you should have screwcut first and then followed up with the 'first' cut tap.
Mebbe, a dremel type of grinder might slightly open the hole and the dremel might sharpen the tap.
I'd use lard oil for tapping- but I'm funny that way.
I'm also funny peculiar because Lidl has these Dremel type beasties for sale------TODAY
Kung Hay Fat Chow
Norman
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I've never had the opportunity to hand-tap anything much larger than 1/4-20 in stainless. I have, however, tapped many a through hole that size under power on a bridgeport clone. The way it was done was to use plenty of "Tap Magic" on a small brush, keeping the tap dripping with it as it went in. Lots of torque and very slow. Smoke is good - if it stops smoking, you're screwed.
As was mentioned, with stainless you have to be concerned with work hardening. Basically you need to get in there and do your cuts with conviction and get out.
The 1/2" deep part also made me wonder - are you trying to start the hole with a bottoming tap? A taper tap probably wouldn't start, and a plug tap might be a bit tight. Just thinking out loud on this one...
-Sparky
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Nick,
You need to start the taping with a "tapper tap" use some cutting fluid, again take it slow and steady. :)
I am assuming you are familiar with the accepted way of hand taping.
:beer:
DaveH
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Thanks fellas,
Quick responses too - are we all working from home today?!
I dont think my taps are adequate this time and I used my lard in the pastry I made the other day ;)
Time to reconsider my approach...
Nick
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Nick,
"Wo**' that's Four Letter word!
Do you recall me quipping about a turning attachment but mine held a diamond- well, this is for shaping the grinding wheels to do the gullets on taps. If you have a dead steady hand you might re-sharpen the leads on your tap with an angle grinder. It only requires a touch on the cutting edge at the beginning.
Lard oil, well, that's what they use to make these fancy tapping compounds. Whoever thought that that it can be used for baking?
N
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@Fergus,
"There is nothing new under the sun".
Where do you get your lard oil from or is it possible to make some up at home?
Nick
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Lard oil is actually what the great engineers of the past used for cutting oils mixed with washing soda and water.
I bought mine from one of the one of the oil suppliers who got me a 5 litre container- not a gallon- What next?
However, there is no reason why you shouldn't use ordinary lard or even the remains of the bacon and eggs left over in the pan.
I fiddled and faffed with all sorts of fancy lotions with wonderful names and addresses and went back to lard.
In all seriousness, it is great stuff for the home lathe guy. I have mine in a dirty jam jar, a cheap paint brush and a collection of swarf, dead bees and wasps that have commited suicide over the course of the last 10 years. It congeals and softens with the heat and all sorts of exotic smells and it leaves a lovely finish both on my hands and the work.
Quietly think, this was the stuff that was probably used on your old lathe- and mine too.
Mix it with a bit of perfume, water and witch hazel and flog it as Pond's Vanishing Face Cream.
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Fergus,
Ill give it a spin, let you know what I think :)
Nick
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I don't do ferrous metals by default and my lathe has not seen anything other then stainless, brass and ally. For cutting threads in SS i use a few drops of slideway oil and a " want to do attitude" ..That is constant prerssure without backing off. I do cut a lot of threads on in Stainless at home and at work and this method works fine for me ....... a lot of my taps and dyes are over a year old and have cut hundreds of threads without so much as a touch up with a honing tone.
ATB
Michael
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Thanks,
Ive ordered a new 1/2" UNC tap set and saved some bacon fat for another go at it.
The Hacienda must be built!
Nick
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Morning!
The 1/2" UNC tap set have arrived from Namrick and are up to their usual good quality. I also bought some Ruko cutting paste from screfix for a fiver.
Big difference and a nice clean thread has now been cut :)
More progress and pictures over the weekend...
Nick
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Nick,
There you go - well done :clap: :thumbup:
:beer:
DaveH
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Morning,
Here are the blanks for the clamps loosely assembled on the bike.
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s95/freewheeler1968/Engineering/clamps001-1.jpg)
The top yoke isnt flat so when the clamps are tightened up they do not sit square. I need to cut a chamfer on the bottom for them to sit square in the recess on the yoke.
Before that though I need to do another tricky bit, drill two blind holes from the bottom almost the full length of the clamp - these will house two allen head bolts that will be used to tighten the clamps up with. And then onto boring out a 1" or 7/8" hole crossways for the handlebars themselves - I havent settled on a pair of bars yet.
I am also contemplating some yokes from billet alloy or really push the boat out and buy some springer forks.
Loads to do...
Nick
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Afternoon,
Well I have had a busy day so far. Thanks for all the suggestions, in the end I did it like this -
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s95/freewheeler1968/Engineering/clamps001-2.jpg)
As far as I know so far - haha, it worked a treat. I finished up with these -
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s95/freewheeler1968/Engineering/clamps002-1.jpg)
I drilled and tapped the outside holes with a 5/16 UNC thread - these will house the allens bolts that tighten up the clamps. I thought it would be easier to do them now before slicing the things in two.
Next is a tricky bit cross-drilling the 1" diameter holes for the handlebars to slide into. This will be a real test of my numbers as the allen bolts run very close.
Could any of you offer tips on getting the cross drilling right as the hole needs to be perpendicular to the two outside bolts. Theres a lot of metal to remove but I have a 1" diameter end mill and a boring head, so there are plenty of options.
Also I need to put some ridges inside the hole for the handlebars to grip against, again any suggestions please?
Thanks for reading,
Nick
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Could any of you offer tips on getting the cross drilling right as the hole needs to be perpendicular to the two outside bolts. Theres a lot of metal to remove but I have a 1" diameter end mill and a boring head, so there are plenty of options.
Bolt them to a right anlge plate or similar fixture
I thought handle bars were 7/8" ?
Also I need to put some ridges inside the hole for the handlebars to grip against, again any suggestions please?
If making them a few thou" small doesn't get you enough grip, you could either pin them (as most of the jap bikes I owned did) or...
If you need to knurl them: mount a straight knurl wheel to the end of a rod, mount the rod in your boring head and knurl the inside hole in the same fixture you used to bore the holes.
Bill
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Thanks Bill,
These are 1" diameter bars. Japanese (and most british) bikes generally have the 7/8" diameter size.
Nick
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Evening,
Well its been a busy evening -
As you know the next step was to cross-drill the hole for the handlebars. I pre-drilled a couple of holes and then went in with a 1" slot drill which pretty much maxed the mill out - I used loads of fluid, half the cutting speed of steel and went for it. I ended up with these -
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s95/freewheeler1968/clamps002.jpg)
Luckily I seem to have got my numbers right and there was no intrusion on the passageways for the clamp bolts.
Pretty good. Now I need to mill some flat sides to make a feature of the handlebard hole. I ended up with these -
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s95/freewheeler1968/clamps003.jpg)
I just ran outside to check my measurements again. Both holes are the same distance from the bottom face of the clamps.
Heres what they look like roughly fitted -
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s95/freewheeler1968/clamps006.jpg)
I am pleased with these. The next step is to use a slitting saw to slice them apart so they actually clamp up when the handlebars are shoved between them.
A good evenings work despite a couple of heart stoppers. Also I realised that I managed to do what I wanted with what I had even though I ordered more tooling this morning.
Nick
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Good job Nick, :thumbup: :clap:
In the home workshop the cutting speed for steel is what works for you. Half speed, quarter speed if it works nicely then that is the correct cutting speed.
Nearly always slower is better. :) :) :)
:beer:
DaveH
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Thanks for your support Dave.
Always learning despite setbacks and heartache, I love my hooby!
Nick
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Afternoon,
I had a busy evening.
The first task was to separate the two halves of the clamps -
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s95/freewheeler1968/Engineering/moreclamps001.jpg)
Ending up with -
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s95/freewheeler1968/Engineering/moreclamps002.jpg)
Very pleased at this point that there was plenty of meat left between the clamping bolt chambers and the handlebar hole. I did realise however that the amount of thread in the 'cap' was nowhere near enough to support the clamping bolts - I reckon there was so much swarf in there from machining the tap wouldnt reach the bottom.
I tapped these out a bit more but really need a bottom tap to finish off - ive got a brand new spiral flute tap here, would that be ok to use?
Preliminary fitting -
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s95/freewheeler1968/Engineering/moreclamps004.jpg)
They look good although you can see where the clamps are not quite closing properly (thats black paint in the picture) - I guess my 1" slot drill must have been quite worn. When fitted, one side of the clamps make the handlebars look a close fit whilst there is some air at the other. Having blacked out the bore and rotated the handlebars around a bit we can see the following high spots on one pair -
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s95/freewheeler1968/Engineering/moreclamps003.jpg)
Do you have any suggestions for taking the high spots out and getting a closer fit whilst keeping a uniform radius parallel to the base? Have to be careful because if too much is taken out the clamps wont close enough on the handlebars.
Any suggestions are very welcome.
Nick
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To get the high spots down, you could go Retro (appropriate for anything to do with a Harley...)
A bearing scraper: take a triangular riffler file (preferably old and worn!), heat to "boiled carrots" and allow to cool slowly to take the hardness off, then grind off the teeth and sharpen the 60-degree edges, harden (boiled carrots again, quench in water or oil), polish up with emery cloth and temper to light straw, then hone the flat faces on a fine stone until you get "razor sharp" edges - eeeh, takes me back... A decent file's steel will be almost glass hard after this, and should scrape the high spots down fairly well, even in stainless.
Just my ha'pennorth,
Dave H. (the other one)
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One thing ive noticed over the years is the handle bars are very often far from round. the bending process of the bars makes the tube oval and a right royal pain!!!
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How do you set the centre, position and tighten up the handlebar when on the bike?
Unless you drill through the top yoke.
Theres quite a lot of force on the bars, when done give it some see if they move.
Ive had bars collapse not nice, with M8X1.25 pitch bolts going in 15mm cranked up.
You could try lapping the alum with an undersize bar for a tight fit, mind you dont roll the edges. Or spin up slow a 25.2mm bar with fine grinding paste when mounts are loosely clamped, just close up mount with one hand.
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Morning,
I agree with your thoughts - some kind of lapping arrangement is needed.
Im toying with the idea of a kind of brake shoe assembly wrapped in emery cloth and then inserted into the assembled clamps and spun, moved up and down.
How do you set the centre, position and tighten up the handlebar when on the bike?
The clamps are attached to the bike with the handlebars removed - the clamping bolts are hidden, flush with the base. It will be a pain to set up but the bike is a custom build and all about aesthetics.
Will let you know.
Nick
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Sorry Nick- wrong! Wrong engineering principles :loco:
Looking at what your 'blueing' showed was that the high spots were in the centre of the clamps. To mess about with emery is simply going to make the whole- hole(sorry) even more barrel shaped.
Quite correctly, you were advised to make and use an engineer's scraper. Properly applied, it would have removed some of the barreling in the centre of the clamps. Further blueing would have shown you the next step and where to scrape next. Ideally, you want the outer edges of the clamp to be doing the clamping and not what is now- a free air fit.
Being of a lazy disposition, I would have got rid of most of this ring of offending metal with a rotary burr or stone but it would still bring me back to eventual scraping for an exact fit.
If you read or ask about internal freehand grinding, you will get barreling which in your case will be more of the same.
Apologies but I hope that this information will be of positive assistance.
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Thanks Fergus, I feel positively assisted!
And sincere apologies to daveH whose sound, engineering advice I appear to have completely ignored - I am no longer considering my brake hub assembly lol
I dont have the facility to heat metal so will have to buy rather than make something :(
Nick
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Problems, problems!
Think about a triangular file and grind the three flutes hollow and then sharpen the edges. Far more awkward but then?
Again, with a cheap worn out flat file, you can grind a neck about an inch or a bit more down. Then sharpen a cutting edge.
It should look like a bloody big boring tool . Now where did I hear that- before?
Again, old technology but it works.
Cheers
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Ill give it a go - I have a couple of old files in the scrap bin.
We are looking at a radius cutting edge then? Any suggestions for dimensions approximately please...
Nick
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Nick,
I'd settle for something with an inch long blade itself but a gap longer than the depth of the clamp so that you can 'get in' comfortably and fettle the beast- once and for all.
As for a cutting edge, you will have to do a sort of radius to avoid fouling but the edge need only be a 7-10degree cutting edge.
A bit like a boring tool- as I said. Don't forget your gloves to avoid barking your knuckles! Said he with rubber gloves on-- and still picking out splinters out of his wizenned claws!
Great thing- get a pair of surgeon's glasses. Mine came from a rather good orthodontist who realised her Pop had a white stick!
It will be slow, but it works
Cheers
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Thanks Norman, ill post the results of course :)
Nick
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Morning!
Well I made my scraper and was scraping away like a good 'un. It certainly works well and one set of clamps was finished and ready for the bike.
The other clamp, not so i'm afraid. I realised the air gap was not getting any smaller with the handlebar rocking around inside I knew something was up. Out with the vernier caliper - somehow the hole that I drilled is an hourglass shape - spot on in the middle and then something like 1mm oversize at both ends.
This wont clamp anything down!
I cant see how to save this. To be honest I'd rather start again and get it right after all that time and effort scraping the damn thing.
I imagine the 1" slot drill I used wasnt sharp enough or the table moved or something - next time Ill use my boring bar.
Shame about those two nice pieces of stainless...bollocks!
Nick
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Nick,
Shim it- drink a beer- re-cycle the tin- cut into a thin strip for each side.
I promise not to tell anyone- if you dont :beer:
Come on- we all do things like that. Why do you think people 'make' shim stock-- and manage to sell it?
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Fergus, up with the lark this morning?!
You are right, yeah why not! lol I expect too much of myself sometimes...
Good call on those scrapers though, get blunt quickly though cutting through stainless but yeah, good call.
I tried to take some photos but the glare made everything look like a high spot.
Will have another look later - just cracked open a can of beer in preparation...
Nick
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Fergus, up with the lark this morning?! Joys of old age!
You are right, yeah why not! lol I expect too much of myself sometimes... ( You'll learn
Good call on those scrapers though, get blunt quickly though cutting through stainless but yeah, good call.( Drop of cutting oil might ease things
I tried to take some photos but the glare made everything look like a high spot. ( Pass, I don't know how to post pictures- well, I can't be good at everything :doh:)
You see!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Will have another look later - just cracked open a can of beer in preparation... ( I'm not just a pretty face :drool:)
Nick
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Afternoon,
Well I think I have finished them for the meantime.
As it turned out there is some deep knurling on the bars, where they fit the clamps, so as I tightened the clamps up it all squeezed together very nicely.
Fitted -
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s95/freewheeler1968/bike006.jpg)
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s95/freewheeler1968/bike007-1.jpg)
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s95/freewheeler1968/bike008-1.jpg)
There is a little more machining to do to make these sit square on the top yoke - Ill wait before I do this as I would really like a nice pair of slab yokes made from ali. Im on the lookout for the raw material or a good used pair.
I would say they are a good tight fit - I was able to pick the front of the bike up (a bit) by the handlebars.
Thanks for your help.
Nick
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There you go Nick - I told you, you could do it :palm: :palm: :palm:
A nice job well done :clap: :clap: :clap:
Most of my jobs are done that way. Hand crafted made to fit :lol: :lol: :lol:
What could be better. :thumbup:
I'll tell you now Nick I wouldn't have scraped it, I would have put some emery on the tube, "rubbed" it 'till it did fit.
If they closed up too much - just a case of removing a bit off each face. :D :D :D
:beer:
DaveH
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Looks like a job well done Nick. Radius turner worked out I see :borg:
That's a nice looking machine. Is it all your own work? Looks like you have the OCC bug! (Hope that's not swearing in enthusiast circles?)
I like the super close mudguard :headbang: (I like the rock welding too :thumbup: )
I'm not a bike kind of guy (I'd fall off!) But I do like seeing the work and the results of these projects :) Always wonder how your arms don't fall off holding those bars for a long ride :scratch:
Ralph.
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Nice job, man! The clamps blend in beautifully with the look of the rest of the bike. The bike looks very nice, too (and this from a guy who usually does not dig H-D...)
Jari
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Thanks for the kind comments :)
Frame building, now theres a real skill - I have to say that part isnt my own work.
I use my machines and tooling to make wheel spacers, tank and seatbase mounts, seatbase, oil filter perch, footrests and as I get more proficient make my own tools, like the radius turner, to do a nicer job and have round, instead of flat surfaces.
Nick
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Ahh yes... I recall those chaps at OCC buying frames too... Suppose you don't want a bike that turns it's own corners eh!?
Sounds like you're enjoying yourself with it too.... You and your tools are making plenty of worthwhile additions :dremel:
I'll have to look out for the other parts appearing in other threads :thumbup:
Ralph.
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Thanks Ralph,
My interest in building the bike comes and goes so I'll have plenty of time to try some other projects on Madmodder too.
Nick